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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Maybe All This De-Tox Stuff Here is Wrong?

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Author Topic: Maybe All This De-Tox Stuff Here is Wrong?
seekhelp
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Sounds like de-tox is an over-rated thing based on this article. It's talked about so much on LN.

http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource/nutrition_articles.asp?id=706

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karatelady
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That article might be true for healthy people.

That's just the problem ~ none of us are healthy and have too many "bad guys" we're trying to kill and get rid of.

The body needs help detoxing an immune system that isn't functioning properly because it is overwhelmed with bacteria/viruses/mold/parasites/lyme and coinfections.

That's my opinion when I read that article.

Sandy

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TerryK
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You can likely find an article somewhere that will agree with you no matter what your view is about detox.

I thought the same thing as Sandy. We are not healthy. The article was written for people who are detoxing for weight loss. NOT for people who are sick with an illness.

In any case, not even a healthy body was made to deal with the kinds of man made toxins that we are bombarded with daily. Read the book written by Dr. Sherry Rogers called Detoxify or Die if you want to be horrified by the huge number of dangerous chemicals that our body has to deal with on a daily basis.

Seekhelp - Your article is written entirely through the often ignorant view of mainstream allopathic medicine. Most of them don't beleive in chronic lyme disease either. Are they right? NO!

Terry

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tcw
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In my mind the difficulty here on LN is that detox is such a non-specific term. It seems to mean different things depending on the poster.

Oral cholestyramine to bind C. diff toxins and glutathione to improve CYP450 mediated metabolism in the liver I can understand.

Use of an herbal extract with an unknown amount of a possibly active ingredient is just too vague for me. I am not saying that any particular remedy does not work, just that there is so little clear information to make a decision.

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Keebler
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-

Lyme produces a very deadly toxin.

Absolutely, that must be addressed at the same time as treating the infection itself.

I do think that sometimes the term "detox" seems to mean an event rather than the on-going support of the liver and special methods for the lyme toxin - all during treatment.

Without liver support it is impossible to get over lyme due both to the toxin and to the harsh effects some of the meds can have on our livers.

Protection is vital.


-

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SForsgren
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I stand behind my opinion which is that people that do not focus as much on detox as on killing bugs will never regain optimal health. It is that important in my opinion. I just sat through a 3 day conference that made this even more clear than ever.

Heavy metals, chemicals, solvents, etc. All of these are potent interrupters of normal functions in the body.

Organs needs support for detox and drainage. Heavy metal detox is critical. Also, if the toxins stay up, the infections are never controlled. This has been documented by several doctors.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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sutherngrl
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In my opinion, if your doctor doesn't "over load" your body with too many meds at one time; then your body would be able to handle the detox.

Many people take 3 antibiotics at once along with Malaron or Mepron thrown in on top of that. No wonder they can't detox. Too many meds is almost like defeating the purpose.

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Ocean
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I agree, the Standard American Diet (SAD) alone has so many refined foods and chemicals, that human beings have never consumed prior to several decades ago. Then when you add the air quality, cleaning chemicals, chemical building products, ect.

It's overwhelming to the body.

Ocean

--------------------
http://www.healingfromlymedisease.blogspot.com/

Sick since 1996...Diagnosed 10/2008

IgM:23-25 IND, 31+++, 39 IND, 41 +++
IgG: 31 IND, 41++, 58+

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TerryK
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Although cholestyramine can be used for C.diff toxins, it is usually used in lyme patients for neurotoxins caused by borrelia.

I agree with you tcw - I wish more information was available for herbs. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of financial support from drug companies or the governement to pay for studies on the effectiveness of specific herbs.

Unlike drug companies who can patent a specific drug and have exclusive rights to sell it in order to pay for their expenses, companies that sell herbs can't patent an herb so they don't pay for studies because they can't recoup the expense. That said, you can find studies on some herbs or herbal products by searching medline.

Detox as we discuss it here covers a very broad range of detox issues. So much of what a person needs for detox depends on their specific genetics, combinations of exposures, amount of exposure etc..

I'm happy for those who get well without going to the expense and effort of dealing with detox issues. Unfortunately, based on my experience, I'm not one of them.

For most of my life I was told that I couldn't tolerate abx because I was allergic. Lab tests show that I am not allergic. It appears that all along it was the die off that was making me so sick.

I cannot tolerate treatment without extensive detox. I'm very lucky that my LLMD was open enough to learn what he needed to learn in order to help me and others like me. As far as I'm concerned, my experience with treatment and detox confirms my genetic test results that show that I have detox issues

When I bring up detox issues on this board it is not to sell anything or complicate treatment. It is solely to help others who like me, need help in order to tolerate treatment.

For those who don't need or want it, great! For those who do, thank goodness there are LLMD's who pay attention to clinical results rather than requiring studies before they will try to help us.

Terry

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tcw
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quote:
Lyme produces a very deadly toxin.
Keebler, this is something I see mentioned often, but I can find no substantive information. Most often it is mentioned specifically as a neurotoxin. What is its molecular composition, and if it specific to Bb then why do we not test for it instead of using the WB?

quote:
Although cholestyramine can be used for C.diff toxins, it is usually used in lyme patients for neurotoxins caused by borrelia.
TerryK, why is the borrelia neurotoxin excreted into the GI tract? Oral cholestyramine stays in the GI tract, it is not a systemic agent as far as I can tell. How can we know that this toxin binding effect is preferable to the binding effect of fat soluable vitamins that we know can cause problems with cholestyramine treatment?
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Keebler
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-

tcw,

Testing is in the infancy stage. The results of the lyme toxins are evident in the symptoms and damage. Treatment changes that.


You can search for the works of Ritchie Shoemaker, MD regarding neurotoxins with lyme. He has done a great deal of research in this area:

www.chronicneurotoxins.com

ChronicNeurotoxins

This website provides information on chronic human illness caused by exposure to toxins produced by living organisms (biotoxins). ...


===================


Toxins are not just in the GI tract, but working with that can help lighten the load.


Lyme is one of the most toxic infections known to man. It's just short of botulism in that regard.


If toxins are added to our bodies, we have reactions. Our bodies are put into the alarm state to alert us to the danger, they are put on overdrive to rid the toxin and the toxin can cause death of cells and dysfunction of systems.

This is just one article detailing that:

-------------------------------------------------


www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm


From the Townsend Letter for Doctors & Patients

February/March 2006


BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST


by Prof. Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen

EXCERPT:

. . .


A discovery of great importance relating to a toxin produced by the causative agent of Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, has been linked to a similar toxin produced by the organism Clostridium botulinum (botulism).


. . . .


- Full article and great photos at link above.

-----------------------------------

NOTE OF CAUTION: While this is an excellent article regarding the information about the spirochete/cyst, there is one serious caution with one of the treatments suggested: Bismuth.

Bismuth, in various forms or methods of use, can (and has been) fatal. So, cross that off your list. If you download the article, please copy and paste this note to top your page.


Reading - and learning - about the nature of this infection is invaluable. The authors offer much in that regard, I'd just wish they'd adequately cautioned bismuth.


========================


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism

Botulism

Botulism (Latin, botulus, "sausage") also known as "Botulinus Intoxication," is a rare but serious paralytic illness caused by botulin toxin.

. . .

Paradoxically, antibiotics (especially aminoglycosides or clindamycin) may cause dramatic acceleration of paralysis as the affected bacteria release toxin.

. . . .


- Full article at link above


-

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TerryK
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tcw wrote:
TerryK, why is the borrelia neurotoxin excreted into the GI tract?

My understanding is that the toxin is excreted by the gall bladder and then reabsorbed by the the digestive system. According to Dr. S., cholestyramine filters the neurotoxins out of bile in the lower intestine.

tcw asked:
How can we know that this toxin binding effect is preferable to the binding effect of fat soluable vitamins that we know can cause problems with cholestyramine treatment?

Not sure exactly what you are asking but I *think* you are asking if binding neurotoxins overrides the concern of cholestyramine binding fat soluable vitamins??

I guess it would depend on how effecient your body is at removing borrelia toxins. If your body can't remove them very well then I'd say yes, it is important. I supplement fat soluable vitamins well away from cholestyramine.

I've been on the treatment for 3 years and have had many of my vitamin levels tested including D and A and so far so good.

This article has references that should lead you to some of the research that you are looking for on lyme toxins.

http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm

Lyme Disease Toxin
"Because many of the symptoms of Lyme disease involve the nervous system, it
was speculated that the spirochete produced a toxin that disrupted normal nerve function.

Through the use of DNA manipulations and a database of known protein toxin DNA sequences, a match was made with a selected Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) gene and a specific toxin in the database.

Protein generated from this cloned Bb gene was examined biochemically and found to have characteristics similar to that of botulinum, the toxin of Clostridium botulinum, a zinc endoproteinase.1

The toxin from Bb belongs to a family of toxic proteins known as "zinc endoproteinases" or metalloproteases, and includes the toxin from the organism causing tetanus as well as those from many other well-known infectious diseases.

The structures of this family of toxins are all very similar, as determined by x-ray crystal analysis.2

They all contain zinc and perform the same proteolytic function, namely, cleaving the chemical (covalent) bond between two specific amino acids in a particular protein found in nerve cells.3

The substrate for this enzyme is very large, implying that any inhibitor of enzyme activity blocking the entry of the substrate into the active site must also be very large.

One reason for learning the structure of the toxin (including the active site) is to determine the geometry of this site, the exact positions of the atoms that bind other atoms in the substrate.

Knowing the arrangement of these atoms permits the development of inhibitors of the toxin, substances that compete with the normal substrate for active site occupancy.4"

Look at the references they supply and go from there if you are so inclined.

Terry

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jamescase20
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I say, oxygen is the super detoxer.
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tcw
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Terry, thanks for the link, that is exactly what I was looking for. It seems a shame that there has not been much posted about the action of BbTox1 in humans since 1999 or so.

BbTox1 and related applications were patented in 2003 by Drs Donta and Cartwright, that is encouraging at least.

I think that specific claim that it is a neurotoxin is lacking in evidence that I can find, but it certainly could be.

Anybody know why we have not seen any updates on the action in humans or the role in human disease?

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Keebler
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-

If you go to the LDA site, you can order DVDs of past ILADS seminars where the science of lyme has been discussed.


-

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lymeHerx001
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Its written by a Registered Dietitian, they dont know squat about liver detox phases and neurotoxins and encephalopathy.
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