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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » ozone, HBOT, singlet (valkion, eng3) (Page 1)

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Author Topic: ozone, HBOT, singlet (valkion, eng3)
m0joey
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My doc wants me to do a month worth of hyperbaric due to my high infectious load. I did ozone therapy in germany after my bionic, and was wondering if the two produce similar results.

has anyone done both and seen a difference? From what I'm reading, the ozone seems to directly activate viral-killing via cytokine activation, whereas the hyperbaric just produces an inhospitable environment for anaerobic bugs.

I do have babesia, so I'm a bit conflicted about the hyperbaric. I heard it may make babs worse.

[ 04-22-2009, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: m0joey ]

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WildCondor
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If your going to do hyperbaric, you shouldn't just do it for a month and then stop. The trick with HBO is to keep it up, do 30 sessions, and then go every 4-6 weeks and do 5-10 more, and keep it going. You need to get lasting benefit, not just 30 sessions and then stop. I did 200 sessions total and I had babesia the whole time, and HBO did nothing but help everything! Ozone is ozone...never heard it doing anything near what HBO can do. Why can't you do them both? Good luck with this! Make sure you do the HBO correctly, with the Lyme protocol, and not in a mild, or multiplace chamber, you need a monoplace. Good luck! [Smile]
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m0joey
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thanks wildcondor

can you clarify on the lyme protocol & monoplace chamber?

Hesitant to spend much more because of my prior investment in bionic machine.

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SForsgren
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I agree with WildCondor that if someone does HBOT, it needs to be long-term. Everyone I know that did it and stopped reported no long-term benefit.

I think ozone works and can more readily be done at home though some people have home chambers.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Hoosiers51
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I can at least tell you this:

One of my LLMD's from long ago prescribed for me an oxygen tank with a mask, and I was supposed to breath it in everyday while doing mild walking in place on one of those step-aerobics things.

It made me feel TERRIBLE, and it didn't seem like a herx AT ALL. I could only handle it for like 3 or 4 days, and I said, no more, this is killing me.

I do have babesia, and it seems to be a pretty strong case. I didn't know that at the time.

The LLMD was hoping this would help kill the Lyme.

I am not saying this compares in any way to HBOT, but....because of that experience I don't necessarily believe in the healing power of oxygen, to put it lightly.


I have a "light box" that has an "ozone" feature on it. Breathing that in doesn't bother me at all. In fact, it makes me feel invigorated.

I don't know how "high quality" this ozonator is, but it does smell or feel crisp like the ocean or the air after a thunder storm (I put my face really close to it), so it seems legit.


I'm not trying to "counter" what anyone else has to say, I just thought I should share my experience with you.

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m0joey
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thanks scott and hoosiers. I also responded favorably to ozone in germany despite the babs, almost like my body went into an immediate and intense killing mode. I was feverish after every session, but less so with each successive one of the 5.
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LittleLymie19
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Ozone is literally the only thing that helps me and is the only thing that my body can tolerate. I have a significant problem with babesia.

[ 04-13-2009, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: LittleLymie19 ]

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m0joey
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interesting LL. thank you.
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LittleLymie19
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Whoa let me edit that. That post made no sense. I'm sorry, my brain is highly fogged today.
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m0joey
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I didn't even notice the difference. Musta been that selective reading finetuned by this DD =)
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m0joey
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I'm curious why there isn't more interest in ozone. Here is an excerpt from a woman that talks about her experience with both hyperbaric & ozone. The entire article is linked below. What strikes me is the notion that it hits all kinds of bugs, not by virtue of oxygenating the environment but because neutrophils release ozone in order to kill pathogens directly. In that sense, it wouldn't discriminate between aerobic & anaerobic bugs since our innate immunity wouldn't either.

"Ozone is known to be bactericidal, fungidical, protozoacidal and virucidal. In short, it is a strong germicide. It also oxidizes toxins, certain metals, and pesticides--breaking them down so the body can excrete them." -

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=5187&t=CFIDS_FM


Here is another excerpt from Bryan Rosner's site (although it's not from Bryan himself):

"I have done an array of treatments prior to rife machines - HBOC, UV blood irradiation, hydrogen peroxide drips, auto-hemotherapy, ozone, advanced oxygen aphaeresis, underground Lyme Disease clinics, etc. So, I looked over the notes of what had the biggest impact - no matter what the pathogen - and ozone stood out predominantly......As a by-product, oxidizes toxins, including neurotoxins - THUS MARKEDLY REDUCING HERXES EVEN WHILE KILLING PATHOGENS."

http://www.chroniclymedisease.com/ozone-oxygen-lyme-disease

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Hoosiers51
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Well you just have to wonder how far it makes it into the body before it's rendered useless.

I'm sure it's excellent at killing things on surfaces in the home.

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Hoosiers51
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Oh wait, that is talking about the human body....hmmmm. I wonder why/how it can get to metals too, because I get the impression that the ozone molecule is really volitaile and thus would break down before it gets into deep tissue.

Oh well, if it works, it works.

Just be careful breathing it in too much because it can damage the lungs.

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m0joey
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When done with a sauna, the head needs to be out of the chamber so direct inhalation wouldn't be an issue
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R62
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Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I have a wilson lamp sauna and have been looking into the Pressman group for info. The ozone machine is about 1200$ for ozonating water, oil, etc. I wonder if the ozone water, etc detoxes like the ozone sauna is reported to in the article.. then if money is better spent on an ionic footbath (which I have also been looking into) or an ozone generator or ozone sauna. ??
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m0joey
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I think they work differently so it is hard to compare. Ozone seems to kill viruses & oxidize metals/chemicals/neurotoxins, making them easier to remove. Ion footbaths seem to work by increasing the ratio of negative to positive ions in our body, indirectly causing cellular detoxification.

Hopefully others who have experienced both can chime in

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R62
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Thanks, Joey.

Here is the Pressman site as per the article. I didnt know a steam sauna is an ozone sauna. Not sure about that. The generator I thought was 1200$ looks to be 2000$. Would like to know if sauna is more benefical than ozoneated water, oil, insufflation, funneling.

http://www.plasmafire.com/

Search of Saul Pressman:
http://www.o3center.org/Articles/TheStoryofOzone.html
http://www.o3center.org/Equipment/index.html

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Hoosiers51
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Does anyone else find the Brian Rosner link kind of..."so what"? The list of claims he makes seems strange because it's very broad and doesn't go into much detail, and nothing is substantiated. I can't possibly take something like that seriously when the claims are unsubstantiated with citations. The only place I can go to to learn more is a site selling the devices.

Then right after the list, he tells you where to buy the machine.

I wonder if he gets paid to just list those claims in his article (thus, he was provided the list by someone and didn't look up the data himself).

The reason I ask that is because it seems like if you had more information in the "why" department, you would state it in the article, and not make such broad, sweeping generalizations with no data or references.


"14. Is relatively cheap and able to be done at-home, whenever desired."

Why would anyone put that as the last claim unless you were trying to sell something? That statement has nothing to do with the efficacy of O3.

I just get disgusted when I am trying to make an informed decision, and the person litters the article with sales pitches.

I think O3 is great, but not when it's presented like this.

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Hoosiers51
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Okay, never mind...it seems like Brian Rosner was quoting someone else.

I wondered why a bunch of the article was in "bold."

Usually when you quote someone and it's more than 3 lines long, you indent the quotation to the right or put it in italics or something....that's why I got confused and thought it was Brian writing it. He apparently strayed from general formatting rules there. [Wink]

Okay, so anyways....I don't understand why this Marc Fett thinks we will just take his word for it without any citations, and an obvious conflict of interest by listing places to get the device.

I mean, if it's a letter, it's a letter, I'd just like to see something from someone a little less biased if I'm gonna drop some hard earned cash.

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m0joey
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Hoosiers:

He copied and pasted that entire part in bold from a user on the lyme-and-rife support group. His words follow, and he actually has an ad to 4 different manufactuerers of ozone generators. Of course, he still makes money off the google ads but pennies.

Not to say he doesn't shoot from the hip sometime, but I actually think Bryan offers an unbiased and informed comparison of HBOT and ozone in his book and site, based on what information is available.

As for the link to that one company, he is not alone. I have seen many references to Saul Pressman as one of the foremost experts on ozone therapy & describe his products as top-notch.

I have no financial connection to any of these companies, nor have I even spoken with Saul or Bryan Rosner.

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Hoosiers51
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Thanks for taking the time to clear that up and respond.

Didn't mean to come across as harsh, I just have been taken for a ride before, and I think it's easy for that to happen when money is involved.

Didn't mean to derail this thread, nor do I mean to create "bad vibes" here...I'm probably just having a rough day so I apologize. Female issues....don't think you need any more detail!!!!

So thank you for taking the time to even post the articles, (you're right, it's not like we have tons of info right now)...didn't mean to tear them apart.

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m0joey
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no mind at all.

I hope we can keep this thread going! It seems very very few ppl have done both therapies, so this may be yet another pioneering thread.

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WildCondor
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Heres's some info on HBO and the protocol [hi]


Hyperbaric Oxygen Part 1

Hyperbaric Oxygen Part 2


Effects of Hyperbaric Oxygen on Lyme Disease

Overview of Lyme Disease and HBOT

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R62
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There have to be more folks out there using these modalities.

I know Marc on Lymestrategies often mentions ozone, usually referring to the machine that ozonates water, etc.

Thanks for the information.

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m0joey
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I've learned in the last few days that one of the suspected downfalls of HBOT may be the same problem with ozone: worsening babesia/babesia-like bugs. May have to do concurrent treatment with MMS or other antimalarials/antiprotozoals immediately before ozone to keep the load down.

However, it seems to be very potent for just about everything else.

I will probably wait on trying either one just because I would like to do as much as I can with the photons first to lower everything I can catch energetically

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maureen2174
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I haven't ever tried ozone saunas, but have heard from others awhile back that it was very beneficial.

I actually was planning on using this as part of my treatment at one point, but never got around to it.

I spoke with a woman who used it for her daughter's treatment, and combining this with rife, she was able to get her into a remission. Unfortunately, she did have a relapse a year or so afterwards.

Anyway, she told me what to purchase to set up an affordable ozone sauna at home-

a portable steam tent sauna (cheap on ebay)

an oxygen concentrator (have to buy a used one on ebay and get around the needing a medical script- they can we used for welding purposes I believe)

an ozone generator (enaly i think it is sells them on ebay)

I actually purchased all of the above, but like I said, never did use this, although I always imagine that at some time in the future I may give it a try.

Your head sticks out of the sauna and the ozone generator connects to the oxygen concentrator and the tube goes in the sauna, so you create an ozone steam sauna.

I think I ended up spending around $1,000 for everything- the oxygen concentrator was pretty expensive, but I just couldn't find a cheap one at the time. It was very expensive to ship too, as it was heavy.

Have heard lots of successes with ozone. I have drank ozonated water in the past, but not sure how much that helps.

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m0joey
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Still very much interested in this topic, and now doing more research on singlet air such as valkion and eng3. All of these machines are pricy, so I'm trying to see which would be most beneficial if I decided to go the oxygenation route.

The singlet air would seem to bypass the problem with babesia and other protozoa that feed off oxygen; however it would probably have less of a killing effect on everything else. Has anyone besides scott and R62 used singlet oxygen devices?

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m0joey
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I'm reading that when using the Valkion, it is the energy emited when the singlet oxygen degrades to lower-level oxygen, that the body uses..not the singlet oxygen itself. This would seemingly make it more of a ATP & detoxification booster as opposed to killer. It may boost killing by strengthening cell functions, but that is certainly more roundabout that the O3 that would retain the singlet form.

So really I'm comparing a therapy that uses oxidation to kill (ozone) vs a free radical reducer (singlet). At least that's what it seems like to me

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R62
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I'm researching this as well. I have not begun using the valkion so no personal experience to share. I think you are right.

I am wondering the same and also wondering if an ozone sauna is better than an ozone generator that makes ozonated water, oil, etc.

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m0joey
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An ozone sauna utilizes an ozone generator, oxygen generator, and steam sauna. It just has better absorption (so i hear) than insufflation.
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R62
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That would make sense... then could you use the ozone generator to make ozonated oils, etc?
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m0joey
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Not sure about that. That's beyond my pedigree =P
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R62
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I feel like I'm getting a degree...
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Energy2Heal
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I know someone who used ozone insufflation for years and said it was one of the best things she ever did to control her Lyme.

I did a bunch of research on the eng3 vs. Valkion not too long ago and a number of people reported the Valkion to be MUCH better than the eng3.

One DC tried them side-by-side in his clinic and said the eng3 just didn't compare to the Valkion, FWIW

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Alv
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Yes you can if you have an ozonater of the medical grade...even with simple ozonators that are not exspensive..google end find.

You can ozonate the oil and the water to drink ..but they will burn easy as it takes time to ozonate the oil..

Only the MEDICAL grade ozonater can survive this.ALSO this is one of the things that HULDA CALRCK sugest to all cancer pateints to treat parasites and it was costly to buy the prepared one but owning one it makes the treatment cheaper.

I have done shopping 3 years ago ( when I was a member of that forum ) and finally was convinced that ONLY the PERSON in CANADA could really make it perfectly for treatment -the exact amount of ozone in OLIVE oil that need to be to treat the parasites.

HIS oil won on a conference of ALTERNATIVE docs in conference in germany ...again that was 3 years ago.He ships around the world.But again if you biy a medical grade OZONATOR you can use it for any thing , sauna, insuflation , water and oil..even baths with OZONATED water and you can get it..

Ok ...to do certain things you need to talk to an exspert or advise of the veterans OF OZONE treatment ( insuflation to the ears should be done from somebody that knows how to use it-careful here ) .There are so many benefits from that.

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R62
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Do you all know if the ozone can make other infections worse?

Andrew.. what did the folks report the valkion did for them? (this is after I buy one I ask...)

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m0joey
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R62--you're funny, and in a good way. Instinctual purchase be damned, I hope you'll get great results from it!
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R62
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Aw Joey, Thank you. You made my night.
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m0joey
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Yes Andrew, I'm also interested in the comparison (if you can't already tell). From what I'm reading elsewhere, the Valkion is more of a balancer. The energy it emits restores the balance of good and bad organisms. Also, one woman reacted badly because she didn't have antimicrobials in place to deal with the microbes/toxins released by the Valkion.

The Valkion brochure is all about reducing free radicals. The ozone kills via oxidation (increases free radicals) I'm thinking a good way to gauge if you would do well on ozone (if you can't get a blood IV) is if you ever get a boost from vitamin c IV. Although vitamin c is an antioxidant, when you do 50-80g, it kills via oxidation.

So that's the question. Do you have so many bugs that you need massive oxidation? Clear the brush with a flamethrower to prevent a larger brush fire?

[ 04-24-2009, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: m0joey ]

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m0joey
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I asked Dr. Saul Pressman the question about ozone and counterindications with babesia...will relay the response.

He also recommends that we do 7 liver flushes, 2 weeks apart prior to starting the ozone, of which he thinks the ozone sauna plus ear insufflation (since your head sticks out of the sauna) is the way to get the most benefit from ozone.

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R62
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So the valkion works like a photon device in a sense. Do you have a link to that info so I can read it?

Thanks for the good information.

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m0joey
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which part? Much of it was pulled from other yahoo groups
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R62
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the e coli part...
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sparkle7
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This is an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.

I find the ozonated oils (Rizoles as the products Dr. K recommends) to be interesting, too.

If you get an ozone machine you can use it for a steam sauna & to make the oils...

I was researching that rectal or vaginal insufflation may be good against mycoplasmas.

I never heard of the Valkion before - sounds interesting, too.

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R62
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Found it. This says it cut down on the e coli.. I hope thats right..

http://home.online.no/~arethore/engelsk/produkter/e.singlet.html

>>One of the striking effects is that treatment of waste water, contaminated with many bacteria like E-Coli bacteria, showed a dramatic decrease in numbers after only 5 minutes treatment. After a treatment with activated light a decrease from 3500 to 270 bacteria per 100 ml was recorded.

This is not to be considered as a way of treating waste water, but to show the effect of the singlet energy on living organisms. There is no reason to believe that this energy could destroy all the good bacteria we have in living organisms. The energy regulates and restores the balance between what is good and bad in the body. We always need some oxidative capacity (oxygen free radicals) in our immune system, but in most humans there is a heavy surplus....

Treatment
Another reason for many diseases is the lack of oxygen. There are many therapies used all over the world to increase the amount of oxygen in the body. They can be based upon inhalation of extra oxygen, ionised oxygen, blood treatment with ozone or pure oxygen, infusions with hydrogen peroxide, ozone or pure oxygen, oral treatments with stabilized oxygen etc.

They all have a very good initial effect, but one major disadvantage:

They do not reduce the oxidative stress, on the contrary, they often cause an increase in oxidative stress.

An ischemic-reperfusion injury is a typical case where after an operation, for instance after a by-pass operation, the blood stream is started again. That is one of the most dangerous periods when a lot of oxidative stress can cause fatal damage to the organs. Administration of antioxidants like Vitamin C before the operation can in some way improve the situation.

A simple treatment with the equipment not only gives an increased oxygen uptake and utilization (7% with healthy well trained sportsmen), it also decreases the free radical production in a dramatic way.>>

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m0joey
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Oops!! I totally misread that part about the ecoli. It was late, forgive me if you will. Well...even better!
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Marnie
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A retired ID doctor in Sarasota believes the combo of HBOT + Pycnogenol would work for lyme.

Only a good source of Pycnogenol (French tree pine bark).

$$$$

Hope you are very rich. Both are extremely costly.

Sorry, I'm just being honest.

I don't think oxygen is as much of a problem as is the lack of hydrogen.

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m0joey
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At this point I am ruling out HBOT. It is much more expensive than ozone, and from what I've read there's nothing HBOT does that ozone cannot
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m0joey
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Actually you can build an inexpensive decent ozone steam sauna for anywhere between $1000-$2000. HBOT is in the 5-figure range
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Marnie
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While we absolutely DO need oxygen, the downside is it increases "free radicals"...oxygen looking around for something to lock onto.

The things it locks onto help us to destroy MOST pathogens though...NO, CO (yes, very briefly we make CO), H2O2, etc.

Bb combats the above.

Free radicals are very damaging. We make anti-oxidant enzymes to combat them. All our enzymes need Mg (+ other nutrients) to be made and our Mg level is far too low.

Mg is bound to our ATP as Mg-ATP where it is supposed to help transfer phosphate groups onto amino acids.

As I understand it.

Many of our cells are "hydrogen powered".

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Energy2Heal
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R62 & mOjoey,

I tried to find some more info on the Valkion vs. the eng3 from before. The only thing I came across was the following quote from a message board posting:
quote:
I have tried the eng3 Active Air 3 on 8 clients in a small study. I ran it head-to head with the Valkion unit (recommended by Dr. Klinghardt). The Valkion unit won hands down. I returned my eng3 Active Air 3 machine this afternoon.

I can e-mail you my informal study results if you would like.

I can't seem to track down this person - it would be nice to see this "informal" study. So this just remains an anecdotal recommendation.
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SForsgren
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I do ear insufflation. Have a sauna as well, but it takes a lot more time so I generally just do the ozone in the ears.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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R62
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Thank you Andrew. I started using yesterday.

I'm not sure how to tell how beneficial when doing so many other things.. except if it causes a major detox reaction.

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Energy2Heal
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R62 - good luck! Be sure to report back any findings. I've been interested in singlet O2 for awhile but am busy with other treatments right now.
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m0joey
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I haven't heard back from Dr. Saul (the renowned expert on ozone) about the babesia yet, but I did go digging through his archives and he insists that LACK of oxidation is actually the pathological cause of many chronic illnesses and that the push for anti-oxidants is just a bandaid that doesn't address root cause. I will be reading his book, "The Story of Ozone" shortly

This is very interesting, and seems to make sense on an evolutionary level.. which is why Cheney's theory about 'oxygen toxicity" never sat well with me. If we're poisoned by oxygen, why should we even bother?? Even Cheney admits that this oxygen toxicity is a downstream issue rather than causative issue of CFIDS.

Many on the ozone yahoo group (many lyme and CFS patients ) seem to have really great results from ozone sauna and insufflation.

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m0joey
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Here is Dr. Saul's response from [email protected] (he gave me permission to post here):

----------------------------------------------

Dear Joey,

Someone has been telling you pretty stupid things.
Babesia is wiped out on contact by ozone.

Ozone is O2 + O1. The O1 is singlet oxygen.
Regardless of what it is called, Valkion or Eng3 is ozone.
In the same way, Aran is ozone. These are marketing ploys to
avoid FDA censure, since the FDA is dead set against ozone.
Similarly, we label our ozone generators "water purifiers"
to avoid the same problem.

Best of health!
Dr. Saul Pressman

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R62
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It sounds though that singlet is a component of ozone but not full ozone? Wouldn't it be the active form of ozone that has been broken down by the body?

I wonder if you can make ozonated oils from the valkion.. no way to make a sauna from it.

Thank you, Joey.

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m0joey
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r62--your mailbox is full
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Energy2Heal
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Err... I'm no expert in this area, but isn't breathing ozone a BIG no-no? If the Valkion and eng3 were emitting breathable ozone - well, that would be very bad, right?

Something doesn't add up here...

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m0joey
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r62--your mailbox is full
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R62
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Thats what I am wondering too...
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m0joey
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I think he meant they are derivations of ozone... obviously the singlet oxygen is not ozone. Also, considering the singlet in valkion degrades to oxygen by the time it reaches the body,you can't say they are realy all that similar. Valkion=oxygen plus energy in form of photon? Ozone=starts as ozone, still ozone when in blood
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R62
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My mailbox should be clear now. Thank you.
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R62
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http://www.aranizer.us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=56

The Aran

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Energy2Heal
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Wow - the "Story of Ozone" site is fascinating and educational! I need to read the rest of this tomorrow. Who knew ozonated olive oil gel makes an "excellent lubricant for intercourse"?

m0Joey, you will have to be the first to try out and report back on "bladder insufflation" ;-)

Interestingly, my first LLMD (an MD) gave me autohemotherapy in his office, withdrawing (what looked to me like) large amounts of my blood, exposing it to ozone, and putting it back in. I remember how bright red it would get in the bag. It was a long time ago, and now I don't remember how well it worked for me.

Now I'm wondering if it was legal for him to do that here in CA...

All of this talk of ozone has piqued my interest in trying it again.

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m0joey
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Here is a non-Pressman M.D. weighing the pros and cons of ozone...comparing the purely academic view vs. the clinical observation view, and argues that ultimately, ozone may have a net net antioxidant effect by oxygenating the tissues of the chronically un-oxygenated and "diminishes oxidosis."

A short but interesting read.

http://www.majidali.com/ozoneis.htm

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m0joey
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Andrew--That's quite a fancy name for IV ozone. That's what some of us did in Dr. W's office.
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lymeberry
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Can you pay and go try an ozone sauna somewhere?
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m0joey
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Yes. I will probably do that as soon as I get the green light to do it. This is long-term brainstorming.. I don't plan on doing this until my body is ready. For slow detoxifiers, it's necessary to inch our way into something that kills this effectively or else we'll pay the price. I imagine that even if we'd done only IV ozone at Dr. W's office, he would've followed with IV drainage therapy
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sparkle7
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I wouldn't put too much trust in what Dr. Ali says... I went to see him & found he was (putting it mildly) - less than I expected.
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m0joey
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What were you expecting from him?
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m0joey
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More on ozone indirectly acting as an antioxidant in the chronically unoxygenated:

--------------------------------------------------

infection-->cellular hypoxia-->increase in free radicals and impaired production of antioxidants

Supplying antioxidants address the last step but doesn't resolve the vicious cycle of cellular hypoxia.

With ozone or oxygen, mitochondria can produce ATP (38 molecules vs. 2 without oxygen) and cells can 1) product sufficient antioxidants on their own again and 2) detoxify the toxins that interfered with free radicals/antioxidant neutralization. We need to remember that all the yin and yangs of our body should be doing a little dance.. the goal is get them to do the dance again, not to label them good cop bad cop and give the good cop permanent crutches (ahem antioxidants)

So ozone is actually restoring the antioxidant capabilities of our body.

Also, the singlet oxygen acts as a free radical that oxidizes cells/bacteria/viruses that don't have antioxidant production. So pretty much it kills everything save the healthy cells that are still producing plenty of antioxidants to shield against the singlet. Pretty amazing mechanism of elimination huh?

We tend to look at toxic buildup in an increasingly toxic world with resignation, but without these toxins, would those of us with CFS symptoms even be chronically-fatigued?

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Brussels
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Joey, your PM is full!
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m0joey
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all clear
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SForsgren
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Anyone tried H2O2 oral therapy?

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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