LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Success/failure stories with Zhang, Buhner, Cowden......others?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Success/failure stories with Zhang, Buhner, Cowden......others?
aMomWithHope
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for aMomWithHope     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wondering if there is a link comparing these protocols and the pros and cons of them in regard to Lyme and the co-infections?

Anyone here use any or all of these protocols or any others that I haven't mentioned?

What made you choose one over the other?

Did you have success with the one you chose?

Did you choose the herbal route first before antibiotics, after antibiotics, or as a supplement to antibiotics?

Did you use them on your own--using their books as reference--or did you have a practitioner versed in these protocols?

It is still too early to give up on long term antibiotics for my daughter, but I'm trying to collect as much info as possible on alternative treatments as well, just in case or to supplement and aid in her quick recovery.

Any website suggestions for alternative discussions or success stories?

Thanks!

Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoot
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19281

Icon 1 posted      Profile for hoot     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Two members of my family are using Zhang alone for the first line of treatment. They both just started so it is too early to tell. Neither has been on abx to treat lyme and co's.

I will update as information comes in.

hoot

Posts: 236 | From Illinois | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
aMomWithHope
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for aMomWithHope     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, I wanted to add: at this point in time, we are specifically targeting Bartonella and Lyme, with Babs possibly somewhere in there too--everything on her tests was/is borderline, and so far, she hasn't responded to short term treatment for Babs with Zith and Mepron. (She is now off Mepron.)

We are currently treating with Zith and Mino for Bart.

Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
aMomWithHope
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for aMomWithHope     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hoot,

Did you contact Zhang or are you using a book or website for guidance? Is there a website I can go to with forums and info?

Also, what made you choose Zhang versus the other protocols? (You can email me privately if you'd like.)

Good luck on its success. And please do keep me updated!

Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yanivnaced
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 13212

Icon 1 posted      Profile for yanivnaced     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My wife's been doing Buhner type herbs plus some other herbs since January 2008. It didn't work so she's going back to abx.

If you ever reach remission using abx, then herbs might work in keeping the bugs at bay and holding that remission. But as a first line of treatment I have my own doubts.

Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
bugabooboo
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 7383

Icon 1 posted      Profile for bugabooboo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.sinomedresearch.org/

Bug

--------------------
Every experience God gives us, every person He puts in our lives, is the perfect preparation for a future only He can see....Corrie Ten Boom

Posts: 343 | From Northcentral Iowa | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-

It always best to have a LLMD &/or a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) guide treatment for tick-borne and other chronic stealth infections. There are a few LL NDs who are ILADS member, so they will have the necessary knowledge base.


Whatever path you now take, if for lyme, be sure to cover this for at least 30 weeks (and be sure to assess and address an co-infections, too):


www.clinicaladvisor.com/Controversy-continues-to-fuel-the-Lyme-War/article/117160/

From the May 2007 issue of Clinical Advisor


Excerpt:


" . . .To treat Lyme disease for a comparable number of life cycles, treatment would need to last 30 weeks. . . ."


========================


http://tinyurl.com/5vnsjg


Healing Lyme: Natural Healing And Prevention of Lyme Borreliosis And Its Coinfections - by Stephen Harrod Buhner

web site options: www.gaianstudies.org/lyme-updates.htm


================

http://tinyurl.com/5drx94


Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine - by Dr. QingCai Zhang, MD & Yale Zhang

web site: try www.sinomedresearch.org and use "clinic" and then "clinic" for the passwords or call Hepapro through www.hepapro.com


==============


http://www.dancingviolets.com/media/pdf/LymeDisease.pdf

She is an ILADS member and a ND (naturopathic physician), so she has knowledge of the unique nature of the spirochete and what is required but also knows all about supportive techniques.


=============


http://www.steveclarknd.com/LymeDisease.htm


He, too, has a firm grasp of lyme and is a member of ILADS and a N.D.


http://www.rife.org

RIFE - in general

--

http://www.lymecommunity.com/forums/ubbthreads.php


RIFE machine - with lyme and TBD (tick-borne disease).


=================

General research sites:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search:


Andrographis - 232 abstracts

Resveratrol - 2624 abstracts

Allicin - 297

Copits - 276 abstracts


======================


http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook (Tilltotson, et.al.)

While the only reference to lyme is in the chapter about Sarsaparilla, this is an excellent resource book about the forms and functions of herbs. Liver and adrenal support herbs are described in detail here, too.

Also at:

www.amazon.com/ One-Earth-Herbal-Sourcebook-Everything/dp/1575666170


=================


If you have a LL ND near you, that would be best so that you can have individualized care. Acupuncture is also very helpful as a support - it can help the herbs work better.

=================

While intended as support and not primary therapy, some of the supplements here are essential for lyme patients.

http://www.lymepa.org/Nutritional_Supplements.pdf

Nutritional Supplements in Disseminated Lyme Disease

J.J. Burrascano, Jr., MD (2008)


=====================

With thanks to Tincup for this link:


Information concerning a number of possible treatments methods have been listed here in an easy to find format:

http://www.webshopemporium.com/lymeandco-infectionAlternativeTreatments.htm


Alternative Treatments for Lyme Disease and Co-Infections


-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-

Now, I can offer a glimpse at personal experience. Right up front, I will say that if you have the funds, I would go with Dr. Z's guidance in a heartbeat. Stick to it for 6 months to 1-2 years (with guidance, of course).


I have no access to a LLMD in my state and funds simply are not there for travel and I also have serious reactions to many of the orals my GP has offered. I just do far better with a different approach but, still, finding one that is affordable that you can stick to for a as long as needed is vital.


I did Zhang's protocol 2 or 3 times but I never had the funds to do more than 2-3 months at a time. While it is expensive for someone who has no job, it is still the best, in my opinion and quite reasonable in price for the top quality control measures and quality of the products. The allicin from Hepapro is the best I have ever found - and I've tried them all.


I felt the best when on that. The allicin smells like garlic so that is to be considered, however, there is an alternate protocol that has no smell. It's not a strong but still can be rotated for days when something special is going on.

--

I've been on basic Buhner for 6 months and the fatigue is crushing. Andrographis cleared up mouth ulcers I had for four years (allicin did, too, but nothing else worked).

Andrographis is the main part of Buhner and it causes severe fatigue. I just can't break out of that. But it is far more affordable and it's all I can do now, so I'll do my best to stick to it.

Back to the allicin protocol, I had more energy on that and less brain fog. I think less pain, too.

--

Both Allicin protocol (Zhang) and the Andrographis (Buhner) decreased seizures for me.

Allicin tended to raise tinnitus to unbearable levels for me (but most others don't experience that).

Andrographis calms down tinnitus about 3 notches so I've can come off the window ledge.

While both do lessen the startle-seizure connection, neither really lessens hyperacusis for me. But really, either protocol is amazing help in different ways.

I'll mention again, though, that the fatigue from andrographis can be very hard to break through. Although, it sure helps with sleep.


============

I would advise consulting your LLMD about how to approach this. Even Dr Z and Buhner suggest abx at times and, in Buhner's book, he says that abx are absolutely required for one of the tick-borne infections (I can't remember which).

Many LLMDs incorporate methods from either Zhang, Bunner, or both.


Liver protection is vital. And HEARING protection, too. NAC is the best for that. See post below from the Cpn protocol about that.

-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-

Whatever treatment on chooses, liver support is vital. This explains why:

-------------------

NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine)
--------------------

This, from a protocol for Chlamydia Pneumonia (Cpn) which is a similar chronic stealth infection. This treatment protocol is also similar to that of chronic lyme.


This is what one of the protocol authors says about the power of NAC to help protet the liver:


http://www.cpnhelp.org/liverprotection


Dr. Stratton Cautions on Protecting the Liver

. . . "Surprisingly, the only anti-chlamydial agent that did not cause hepatitis in some patients was NAC. In fact, NAC is recognized as being protective.


See attached references.


My conclusion is that NAC should be the first agent in an anti-chlamydial regimen and should be a constant part of the therapy for this protective effect, not to mention it's effect against elementary bodies.


. . . more at link. - with some discussion.

=============================


http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/diseases/understanding-the-liver.html

Understanding the Liver

Excerpt:

. . . Individual variations in our cytochrome P40 enzymes help to demystify why there are so many variations in how we respond to drugs and herbs. . . .


- Full chapter at link above.

===================


There are hundreds of herbs that can help liver function. A couple dozen are discussed here:


http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/diseases/herbs-to-help-the-liver.html


Herbs to Help the Liver

Excerpt:

. . .

The important thing to remember is that the liver is a hot (metabolically active) organ, and so tends to get congested and inflamed.

. . .

Protection

Turmeric root, wheat sprouts, schisandra berries, amla fruit, beet root and milk thistle seed are among the major sources of protective anti-oxidants for the liver cells, as are fruits that contain flavonoids, especially citrus fruits.


These should be used to prevent development of inflammatory disease, or for damage protection as in the case of persons taking strong chemical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy.


Deficiency

The liver can become weakened and deficient. If this is not corrected, it can lead to liver atrophy and depletion of glycogen stores, even hepatitis. Signs include fatigue, low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, dry eyes, headache, heat symptoms and irritability . . . .


Heat and Inflammation

To remove excess liver inflammation with heat signs or toxins . . . .

. . .

Pain

If there is liver inflammation with signs of pain and tension, use herbs that calm the liver and move the blood . . . .

. . .

- Full chapter at link above.


================


www.itmonline.org/5organs/liver.htm


The 5 Organs Network of Chinese Medicine - Liver


========================


NAC is also explained in the articles below for it's help to PROTECT THE EARS:

http://www.tinnitusformula.com/infocenter/articles/treatments/itf_05.aspx

``Antioxidants: Their Role in tinnitus.''

Ben Balough, MD, Chief of Neurotology at the Naval Medical Center San Diego.


Dr. Balough stated that antioxidants such as N-Acetyl Cysteine and Acetyl-L-Carnitine are very helpful in preventing hearing loss due to noise exposure or ototoxic medications.


====================


http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art2168&zTYPE=2


The Liver: Detoxifying This Vital Organ Nourishes Overall Health and Vitality - By Sherrill Sellman, ND


=====================


http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art1890&zTYPE=2


Liver Protection: Laying the Foundation for Optimal Hepatic Health - By Kathy E. Acquistapace, DC, NHP, CNC


=================


If someone is having a hard time with certain medicines, there may be problem with metabolization. AND there are some suggestions here that will help all lyme patients better tolerate meds. Beta Carotene is just one great helper to the liver and might really help diminish herx response.


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=071168


Topic: PORPHYRIA LINKS - Re: Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway

-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-

For comparison:
------------

www.ilads.org

ILADS

The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) provides a forum for health science professionals to share their wealth of knowledge regarding the management of Lyme and associated diseases.


link to ILADS' Treatment Guidelines: http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/treatment_guidelines.html


Also see what ILADS has just submitted: http://www.lymedisease.org/news/lymepolicywonk/114.html



and

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

Dr. Burrascano'sTreatment Guidelines (2008) - 37 pages

----

http://www.lymepa.org/html/dr__j__burrascano_september_20_15.html


Burrascano's Powerpoint presentation 9-20-08

-------

This NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENT list is included in Burrascano's Guidelines, but you may want to be able to refer to it separately, too:

http://www.lymepa.org/Nutritional_Supplements.pdf

Nutritional Supplements in Disseminated Lyme Disease

J.J. Burrascano, Jr., MD (2008)

Four pages

==============


This book, by an ILADS member LLMD, holds great information about treatments options and support measures:


http://tinyurl.com/6lq3pb (through Amazon)


THE LYME DISEASE SOLUTION (2008)

- by Kenneth B. Singleton , MD; James A. Duke. Ph.D. (Foreword)

You can read more about it here and see customer reviews.

Web site: www.lymedoctor.com


-

[ 04-25-2009, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-

I forgot to add this to the bunch (He is an ILADS-member LLMD, too):


www.lyme-disease-research-database.com/lymenutritionfile1_files/Integrated-Approach-DAN.pdf


HEALING LYME DISEASE: An Integrated Approach to Curing Chronic Infection


Daniel A. Kinderlehrer, M.D. (2004)

-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Meg
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 22

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Meg     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Success Stories:
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/15820?

--------------------
Success Stories---Treatment Guidelines

Posts: 10010 | From somewhERE OVER THE Rainbow | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
aMomWithHope
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for aMomWithHope     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks everyone for the personal experiences and links. I have a lot to research and read through.

Anyone else want to share their experience with any of these as well as any other protocols I forgot to mention, such as Klinghardt, etc.?

Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tai
Junior Member
Member # 10022

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tai     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I used Dr. Zhang's protocol following a long course of abx. I believe the abx took me from about 40 symptoms down to about 15, and Zhang took me from there down to about 5. So yes, it definitely helped. Now I'm doing colloidal silver, which helps keep me down near zero. At this point I only take it when symptoms re-emerge. My few remaining symptoms include leg cramping (not your garden variety, but a sensation that all muscles and connective tissue are shortening until they feel as if they might snap), double vision, morning tingling, and I'm probably forgetting one or two others. All are minimal compared to pre-diagnosis. I plan to try the meso silver form next. I also take tonic water when I have a hot, searing pain in my right leg. It works. I've had Lyme over 30 years.
Posts: 4 | From MD | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tai
Junior Member
Member # 10022

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tai     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Me again. What is a junior member? I thought I was too old to be a junior anywhere. Did I fill something out incorrectly?
Posts: 4 | From MD | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
aMomWithHope
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for aMomWithHope     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Tai,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate the input.

Regarding Junior Member status, I'm not sure what that is, but maybe it has to due with how often you post? I'm still just a plain, run-of-the-mill member!

Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amanda     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I tried all three, and none of them worked for me, at all.

In fact, I continued to slowly decline, even though I was taking abx, along with the herbal protocols.

I tried each for almost 6 months each.

I recommend you choose the least exspensive option. Since not everyone are helped by teh protocols. Although it is true that this can also be the case for abx, at least we have tracked thousands of patients with abx, and have a better idea of what will be effective, and to what extent.

--------------------
"few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain

Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.