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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » IgG results look positive wb no pcr no

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Author Topic: IgG results look positive wb no pcr no
suzeq
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Hi,

Just got my husband's result's from IGenex, his internist said he doesn't have lyme based on the results but the results from the IgG test has a few + and one ++

We have an appointment in Armonk in a couple of weeks but am curious about what any of you may know about this.

I know my husband can still have Lyme even with a totally negative Igenex test. Have others had this? I was expecting more positive results in the test. Suzeq

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Lymetoo
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Can you tell us which bands were positive?

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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paulieinct
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Suzeq:

Best to post the actual results with each band. Many on here are good at interpreting WB. Some bands have more significance than others, since they are specific to Borrelia burgdorferi. A positive result on just one of these bands can be an indicator of Lyme.

--------------------
Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that.

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suzeq
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IgG
23-25 ++
39 IND
41 +
58 +
83-93 +

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Lymetoo
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Lyme for sure!!! ( I am not a dr! )

read this ( print it out )

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/42077

Band 83-93 is the DNA of the borrelia bacteria!!!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Leelee
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suzeq, do you have the IGM results also?

I'm new to Lyme (at least the diagnosis part) and am curious.

My IGG results are:
31 IND
39 IND
41 ++

IGM:
30+
31 IND
41 IND
58 +
83-93+

Some of our bands are similar and I definitely have Lyme. I agree with Lymetoo (I always do! [Smile] )

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The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr

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Lymetoo
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I was called away from the computer for a bit...sorry.

There are several Lyme specific bands there. When you print out the link above {Dr C's WB explanation} then you can circle all of the positive bands your husband has.

DR C tells which ones are Lyme specific.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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suzeq
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Leelee,

IgM was all negative

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Leelee
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Hmmmm. I do think it is still possible he has Lyme, even though his IGM is all negative. From what I understand that means his infection is not immediately active, not that it isn't present.

If I am incorrect, I hope someone will come along and give you better information.

My LLMD said that sometimes the sickest patients have the least number of positive bands b/c their immune system isn't working to fight the bacteria.

I know you have a doctor's appointment in a few weeks. Is it with a LLMD? From my own experience and those of others, only a LLMD will be able to accurately diagnosis Lyme and co-infections.

--------------------
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr

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nenet
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I'll repost what Lymetoo said above to reitterate...

Please read Dr C's Western Blot Explanation:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/42077

It will explain to you that it doesn't matter whether a Lyme-specific band shows up on the IGG or IGM, it is still important. If someone is having Lyme symptoms currently in that scenario, then it is an active infection. Even if it is just one Lyme-specific or Lyme-leaning band.

What matters most is not the test however, as many people can have DNA-proven Lyme disease, and not show any bands on a Western Blot, or just the 41 band, etc.

A recent study by Johns Hopkins found that the 2-tier system currently used to test for Lyme (ELISA and Western Blot), misses up to about 75% of DNA-proven cases of Lyme. That's worse than a coin toss!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16207966

"A Johns Hopkins 2-yr study (2005) finds that the CDC 2-tiered testing procedure misses 75% of positive Lyme cases. Coulter, P, et. al. 2005. ``Two-Year Evalution of Borrelia burgdoferi Culture and Supplemental Test for Definitive Diagnosis of Lyme Diesease'', J Clin Microbiol. 2005 Oct;43(10):5080-4."

ALSO:

"The NY Dept. of Health (1996) told the CDC that its 2-tiered testing procedure misses 81% of positive Lyme cases. Source: (Source: Fritz, C. 1996.)"


So, this illustrates why Lyme is a clinical diagnosis - even according to the CDC - because the current testing misses a LARGE number of true Lyme cases, and sometimes will not show ANY antibodies, for many different reasons.

It would be best to read through the explanation, as I don't think I am explaining it properly, and there is a LOT of great and important info in that link. It will help you understand what the test is, how it works, and what the results mean.

--------------------
Dr. C's Western Blot Explanation

Lymenet Success Stories

ILADS Treatment Guidelines

Medical & Scientific Literature on Lyme

"Long-Term Antibiotic Therapy Improves Persistent Symptoms Associated with Lyme Disease"

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lmz1100
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but if someone tests positive for IGG and negative (with a few bands +) on IGM - could this be MS and not Lyme?

I am nervous I have MS and not Lyme.

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nenet
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Hi lmz1100, please see my post above yours for an explanation - don't know if you looked at it or not, but it should be helpful. If you have a positive IGG OR IGM you are far better off than most of us when it comes to having paperwork proof of Lyme infection.

You have Lyme - but do you have an LLMD yet? They should be able to help you to better understand the test results as well.

--------------------
Dr. C's Western Blot Explanation

Lymenet Success Stories

ILADS Treatment Guidelines

Medical & Scientific Literature on Lyme

"Long-Term Antibiotic Therapy Improves Persistent Symptoms Associated with Lyme Disease"

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by lmz1100:
[QB] Sorry if this has been asked before, but if someone tests positive for IGG and negative (with a few bands +) on IGM - could this be MS and not Lyme?

Not in my opinion. Nenet pointed out what Dr C said about that it doesn't matter which one is positive. Both are important in dxing Lyme.

Go to the link we provided above. Print out the WB explanation. It will tell you the same thing I just said....but from an LLMD.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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lmz1100
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Thanks nenet and lymetoo. Yes, I have a LLMD. I had a very positive IgG and an almost positive IgM. I am just discouraged because my symptoms are all neurological.

I have been on and off meds and they were working but I stopped and the symptoms are back and BAD.

A friend of a friend was just diagnosed with MS and my friend keeps telling me my symptoms are the same as hers. Only thing is, I did have a bullseye rash.

I will print and read what you have posted above. Thank you both.

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nenet
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lmz1100, your friend needs to understand that MS is just a set of symptoms, not a disease with a known cause, and Lyme when it reaches the brain and nervous system (in disseminated Lyme, Neuro-Lyme), can present exactly like MS.

In fact there are many studies out there that have proven Lyme in previously diagnosed MS patients, showing that MS was not the complete picture - just a description of a set of symptoms. Once Lyme is clinically diagnosed and addressed, the MS symptoms can resolve.

There are many threads here talking about MS and Lyme - you might want to search for MS and see what you can find. Some of those threads included a lot of cited research that would be good to read through.

Here is some info from a great book I highly recommend:

From page 57 of "Everything You Need to Know About Lyme Disease, And Other Tick-Borne Disorders", by Karen Vanderhoof-Forschner:

"Meningitis, the third most common neurological condition, characterized by inflammation of the membranes covering the brain and spinal cord, signals early neurologic involvement. It can be acute, chronic, or too mild to notice and may wax and wane or continue unabated for months.

The most characteristic symptoms are a severe headache or a stiff neck, and there are also reports of light sensitivity, fever, nausea, and vomiting.

A magnetic resonance imagine (MRI) scan, which uses principles of magnetism to create images of body organs and tissue, is generally normal, but an electroencephalogram (EEG), used to record electrical activity in the brain, sometimes shows evidence of neurological changes."

p. 57

"Encephalopathy is a dysfunction of the brain itself that can occur months to years after initial infection and is considered late-stage disease. About half of Lyme disease patients with brain involvement develop encephalopathy. Cognitive problems - including diminished conceptual ability and lessened capacity to think, learn, and apply logic - are often reported.

Mood disturbances such as irritability, bursts of crying, and temper flares occur, and patients also report poor concentration, short-term memory loss, loss of verbal fluency, loss of processing speed, profound fatigue, confusion, and difficulty sleeping. Patients also describe themselves as "being in a fog."

Most neurological exams are normal, although an MRI scan sometimes shows multiple sclerosis-like white-matter lesions on the brain caused by inflammation. The most accurate way to diagnose encephalopathy is usually through neuropsychiatric testing."


"Encephalomyelitis is an inflammation of the brain and spinal cord, which generally occurs in the later stages of disseminated disease, beginning 1 month to several years after an infection occurs.

Symptoms may be difficult to distinguish from those seen in multiple sclerosis, stroke, or brain tumor. The condition is progressive and may suddenly worsen, followed by partial improvement and then another attack. Movement is impaired, as is some cognitive ability.

A patient may appear to be dyslexic when speaking or writing, and personality changes are sometimes evident. A range of other alarming symptoms also occurs, including the inability to feel sensations, paralysis of one or both sides of the body, defective muscle movements, bladder dysfunction, visual and hearing loss, seizures, cranial fluid, tissue atrophy, and white-matter lesions.

Spinal fluid tests show abnormalities quite often, and mild brain abnormalities have been found at autopsy. Sometimes meningitis is concurrent with encephalomyelitis - the resulting condition is called meningoencephalomyelitis."

--------------------
Dr. C's Western Blot Explanation

Lymenet Success Stories

ILADS Treatment Guidelines

Medical & Scientific Literature on Lyme

"Long-Term Antibiotic Therapy Improves Persistent Symptoms Associated with Lyme Disease"

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