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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Haverford Center in PA cures Lyme in 56 days!!!

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Author Topic: Haverford Center in PA cures Lyme in 56 days!!!
paulieinct
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Haverford Wellness Center in PA claims it cures 88% of all Lyme, even late-stage, in 56 days. Has anyone heard of this place before???? They apparently follow ILADS-like protocols, but why haven't I heard of them before? Anyone familiar with this place?

Read this article:


http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2009lyme/treatment/prweb2370164.htm

--------------------
Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that.

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bettyg
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nope...
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paulieinct
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Here is the link for the website for Haverford Wellness Center:


http://www.haverfordwellness.com/lyme_diagnosis.html

--------------------
Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that.

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radfaraf
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Impressive site lots of good info on there. Just kinda hard to believe the claims about cure rate.
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lemonsnotlymes
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I have not heard of this place either.

I must admit though from reading their website it seems as if they are very integrative in their approach.

This sounds exactly what I am considering with my LLMD right now which the practice has its own infusion room for IV Chelation, IV nutrition, IV for infection/herbals.

It is an expensive way to treat, but the LLMD is finding a much higher success rate with this and as well as a shorter treatment timeframe.

What my LLMD WON'T do is make a claim like Cured in 56 Days like this website did. That's what got my guard up right away when reading that.

I wouldn't discount the treatment as being so radical as it appears. Apparently, this is starting to emerge as an additional way to treat.

I would just question the claims.

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lemonsnotlymes
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I have not heard of this place either.

I must admit though from reading their website it seems as if they are very integrative in their approach.

This sounds exactly what I am considering with my LLMD right now which the practice has its own infusion room for IV Chelation, IV nutrition, IV for infection/herbals.

It is an expensive way to treat, but the LLMD is finding a much higher success rate with this and as well as a shorter treatment timeframe.

What my LLMD WON'T do is make a claim like Cured in 56 Days like this website did. That's what got my guard up right away when reading that.

I wouldn't discount the treatment as being so radical as it appears. Apparently, this is starting to emerge as an additional way to treat.

I would just question the claims.

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nomoremuscles
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Kind of circular.

If, without a failproof test, one can't prove a patient HAS Lyme before trx, how does a doctor go about proving that a patient is cured after?

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nenet
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Well, from their website: www.haverfordwellness.com


"What is Lyme disease...

If you're confused, we understand why. Most medical professionals believe Lyme disease exists and can be treated. (1.) Yet, there's much confusion on how to determine the best Lyme disease diagnosis and treatment.

We use a scientific approach to curing Lyme disease. (2.) First we need to feel without a doubt you have the disease. Not just "symptoms" but the Lyme organism. (3.) Then we need to treat the disease until the organism is gone. (4.) Not just when you "feel" better, but when we can verify the disease is gone."


Just about every sentence in that passage is non-Lyme Literate.

1. Lyme Disease's existance is not under contention in any quarter. CHRONIC Lyme is what is under debate by the IDSA folks. This is already getting off to a bad start.

2. There is NO CURE for Lyme Disease. NONE. Nada. Zip. This is cruel to give people false hope of a cure. There is remission, and many ILADS LLMDS are successful at helping most of their patients reach it.

3. Only treating patients in whom they are able to find direct evidence of the organism (I assume either via PCR or culture) is worse than the IDSA guidelines themselves.

Even IDSA research publishers have found PCR testing to be the least accurate of all. Their criteria are even worse than the 2-tier testing (ELISA then Western Blot) recommended by IDSA, which according to a recent Johns Hopkins study, misss 75% of DNA-proven Lyme cases!

4. To say that there is scientific proof of removal of the Lyme organism is a blatant falsehood. There is no such test. If there were, someone would be very wealthy off of it right now.


To summarize, the claims they make are false, and their philosophy and approach to Lyme is based on *worse than* IDSA thinking (eg. you have to prove with tests that you have Lyme to be treated, but via DNA, not just antibodies).


Personally, I would stay as far away from this place as possible.

--------------------
Dr. C's Western Blot Explanation

Lymenet Success Stories

ILADS Treatment Guidelines

Medical & Scientific Literature on Lyme

"Long-Term Antibiotic Therapy Improves Persistent Symptoms Associated with Lyme Disease"

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Momfromtexas
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Would one of the lucky 88% cured please step forward!
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paulieinct
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Hmmmmm........I'm not getting the bad vibes about this place that some of you are. They mention ILADS as an excellent organization. They do NOT mention American Lyme Foundation (IDSA). They accept insurance. They treat aggressively, usually with IV.

They acknowledge that current ELISA and Western Blot have up to 80% false negatives.

Personally, I'm getting good vibes.

--------------------
Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that.

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pryorka
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They do make me worry about their chelation protocols. They say they only use EDTA through IV which causes severe problems in people with mercury poisoning (which a lot of us tend to have from amalgams). People have gotten those IV's and ended up with permanant brain damage and delerium among many other things. The protocol they're refering to is used by the ACAM doctors who are essentially quacks milking money out of people. So they could just be after easy money here.
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glm1111
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This is really weird. I literally live a cab ride away from this place. I have never heard of it unless it is fairly new.

I am bothered by the word "cure" also. I do like the integrative approach they use though.

However, I have no venous access (thanks to Lyme) except through a picc line. My retired immunologist lives very close by.

I can always ask him if he ever heard of this place. It doesn't matter though, because I can't afford it and I am having success treating myself,

Gael

--------------------
PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW
RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS*

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seibertneurolyme
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Five years later hubby is still not cured. This clinic has been around, but the D.O. was not the one who previously got all the publicity.

Some may remember the P.K. protocol and the "Detoxx Book". Hubby was a patient of Dr P.K. and Dr B. in 2004. The phospholipid exchange was helpful with his neuro and detox symptoms, but much too expensive to continue longterm.

We do still order the oral phosphatidylcholine from time to time.

http://www.detoxbox.com

Sorry, but I do not believe those success rates. The medical advisor has been around in lyme circles for quite awhile. Have never read that he claimed such high success rates before.

Bea Seibert

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Lymetoo
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Sure, right. Uh huh.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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jklynd
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If it looks to good to be true.............

My original post was edited to remove any name references...But, if you are interested,go to their website and Google some of the principals involved. I recalled one of the names as running a treatment center in Northwestern NJ that is now defunct.

It just seemed unusual to me that a center goes "belly-up"in NJ, and re-opens years later in Pennsylvania. NJ needs all the LLMD's it can get.

Keep in mind,I don't know how long they've been in business there,(Pa.), but I'm sure if their success rates were as high as they claim, just word of mouth would have been enough to have people waiting to "take a number" outside-they wouldn't need a PR firm to do it for them.

I have no doubt that some people have been helped, it's just the "quick cure" aspect of it raised my eyebrows. Do you ever recall hearing any cancer treatment centers claiming the same? And, out of curiosity,what happens to the other 12%?

All I meant was for anyone to do research, or get feedback from someone you know personally they have helped or an organization you can trust. Joe

[ 05-20-2009, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: jklynd ]

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Abxnomore
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I think you are threading on thin ice here. I have never seen this Dr. but I do know many who he helped and he was very accommodating to those who did not have funds.

He had some policies I did not agree with but he is a Lyme literate doctor. If he is trying to make a come back and if he resolved whatever he did I don't think he should be crucified on this forum.

We don't know, or do we, how things are going in his new practice but this post will be instrumental in getting him closed down. I also know he was very outspoken politically and put himself on the line coming to Lyme rallies and speaking for US.

May be before we go on a witch hunt we should all calm down and find out if he is getting results at his center.

I do know he is a LLMD and has helped many in the lyme community.

We have enough problems in the Lyme Community. Don't out one of our own unless we have all the facts.

[ 05-20-2009, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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polar blast
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abxnomore
this clinic costs money and alot of it..there is a bad vibe already with what ive read and you cant say that you dont see it..I was supposed to go here years ago but the poor house is where I would end up so I dropped my appointment..my llmd is the best there is and if you are not getting cured then find another doctor and one who is NOT on the internet..

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Abxnomore
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First off, I am off of ABX and doing fine but I fully understand this illness having lived thru it for many years.

I'll admit the website promises a lot but I say call the facility and speak to others before we out him. One of them is an LLMD. I know him and I know people he has treated and helped enormously in the past but not at this facility.

If we know for sure that he is a scam that is one thing just like we do with our LLMD lists we cross some names off when we learn that they are not up to par.

But I think it's wrong to start a witch hunt based on flimsy evidence. All alternative facilities cost a fortune. They do all kinds of modalities that are expensive and not covered by insurance but they work when used by the right people. I have always used Integrative methods in my battle with this illness.

How were you supposed to go there years ago when it's my understanding that Dr. L just joined this place? He's the LLMD. As noted he had a different location previously.

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nomoremuscles
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Abx,

How could it not be a scam when they are advertising a CURE in 56 days? This is not honest. The doctor may be a great guy, as you say, he probably has helped many, he may even hug little kids and climb trees to rescue kitty cats. But there is no 56 day cure.

(If there is, everyone line up after me!)

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Abxnomore
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jklynd, I agree with you. Certainly sounds too good to be true. We'll all have to do our home work and keep an open ear and make calls if we must.

It's obvious now why he reopened in PA. You found the reason why. And it's a relatively new practice. In my experience, he had a good practice in NJ, in fact, several locations. Dr. L is lyme literate.

I don't like that he is promising cures but I think teaming up with the guy who does the integrative stuff is a good idea, if he knows what he is doing.

I have found, personally, that it is the best way to approach this illness and in fact any illness.

Maybe we will hear some good things coming out of this place, I hope.

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Abxnomore
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nomoremuscles , We can call his office and ask him.

I agree the website reads like an infomercial. But they are claiming to be good at catching early cases so they will probably say that is how they do it, perhaps.

All I know is that Dr. L is lyme literate. I like the alternative modalities they use. Someone who is lyme savvy may well be able to make use of this place, plus they take insurance.

I do agree the website reads very badly and makes fantastic claims. I don't know anything about this new center.

Perhaps, we can be constructive in letting them know that we don't like what they are claiming and let them know that if, in fact, they are a

lyme literate office that their website is a real turnoff to anyone who is lyme savvy. That it reads like it's a scam business saying it can do the impossible.

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Larkspur
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Weird - I can literally walk to this place from my house!

Anyway, I have heard of it from when Dr P. K. worked there.

I do not know this new Dr L or anything about him.

I really doubt they could cure me in 50 whatever days - I would give them a run for there money!

--------------------
"We must be willing to get rid of
the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us" - e.m. forster

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Abxnomore
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Dr. L is an LLMD and has been around a long time.

I absolutely doubt the 56 day cure. Perhaps, we should contact his website and let him know that we find those claims to be impossible except in the

earliest of cases and if that is what they mean to say they should clarify their statements or else they will clearly be deemed misleading.

I plan on contacting his office thru their website.

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paulieinct
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To those who say they are expensive, they DO accept some insurance. How many LLMD's accept insurance. Look at all the Lymies who are going bankrupt paying everything out of pocket. It certainly seems they would appeal to many of these folks.

My LLMD is reluctant to try IV abx, evn though I have late-stage neuro-Lyme. I will have to decide at the one-year point if I still want to continue with just orals.

Re what happens to the other 12%. Obviously they continue treatment longer. They do not seem to abandon patients. They claim 5% do not get better. That's the number my own LLMD quotes for his patients. I'm 10 1/2 mos. on orals, still have numbness, weakness, burning neuropathy in legs, loss of balance. And my vision is worse than ever.

Remember they still admit there is no one test that when negative guarantees that you are free of Lyme. Their testing protocol is obviously more complicated than what they were able to explain on their website. Also, cure for them means no more symptoms AND test confirmation. IDSA could care less about your symptoms after the three weeks on doxy, they just proclaim you cured even if you're screaming in agony. I just do not see this as WORSE than IDSA. What can be more evil than Satan????

AND, this place uses IGENEX lab.

--------------------
Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that.

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Abxnomore
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As I said the website might sound fluky but he is an LLMD who knows what he is doing and has been around a long time. Cure? Well that is another matter.

Paul if you have an LLMD who won't use IV's that is a reason to look else where but surely you can find help closer than PA.

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cantgiveupyet
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PK was the PHD...the Dr B there did not prescribe abx at all for lyme when I went....he did not believe in it.

A few months ago I was looking for a supplement I took from them and their site is now all about lyme. The Dr B seems to have changed his protocol now...I would like to know what changed his beliefs.

--------------------
"Say it straight simple and with a smile."

"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet,
But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."

-Schopenhauer

pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg

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Abxnomore
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Probably teaming up with Dr. L, an LLMD! My guess is that Dr.B does all the alternative modalities,

not Dr. L. Dr. L. never did them before. They offer a very good selection of integrative approaches, all cutting edge. I'm impressed.

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Momfromtexas
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Abxnomore....you wrote to Polar Blast....
"How were you supposed to go there years ago when it's my understanding that Dr. L just joined this place? He's the LLMD. As noted he had a different location previously."

I did a search on this clinic's name and found an old post by Polar Blast from 2007, where he/she mentioned planning to go to this clinic. Earlier today I sent a PM asking him(her) to come forward and comment on this clinic.

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Abxnomore
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Well now we are talking about two clinics and we don't know which one he meant.

seibertneurolyme mentioned above who was in the existing clinic in PA. Dr. L was in NJ but from

what I recall he was never a high priced LLMD and took insurance so I don't know which one he was referring to.

In any event, if it was years ago or 2007 neither of them exist at this point.

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cantgiveupyet
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abxnomore you are correct in saying this is somewhat a new clinic under the same name since Dr PK has left. Yes, Dr L since I left there in 2008..he was not there when I was a patient. i did not have money at that time to try the IV alternative protocol. However the oral PC did help me.

We need some current patient reports, so we can better evaluate this clinic.

--------------------
"Say it straight simple and with a smile."

"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet,
But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."

-Schopenhauer

pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg

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losferwrds
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quote:
Originally posted by jklynd:


It just seemed unusual to me that a center goes "belly-up"in NJ, and re-opens years later in Pennsylvania. NJ needs all the LLMD's it can get.

Dr Ls practice went belly up because the feds got him for tax evasion and he went to prison. Happens alot in cash businesses.

From what I gleaned from the site they have come up with something that makes the PCR testing more effective

They also say that follow ups are needed, which implies 56 days to a cure is prolly more accurately 56 days to your first remission

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njgirl14
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I went there for over a year and not cured or even better. it is very expensive. if you can afford it, it seems to be helpful for detoxing. i did not see miracles there and i saw alot of the same people often, some in wheelchairs.
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Abxnomore
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njgirl14,

When you went there was it with the old staff or with the new LLMD?

I would say the outcome may now be different with Dr. L, an LLMD on board. I hope we heard some good feed back in the months ahead.

Lyme needs a true integrative approach such as what they are offering.

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njgirl14
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the last time i was there was his past fall (i think, maybe longer ago not sure?) anyway there was dr pk the phd and dr b. i do not know who dr l is you are referring to.

dr b's wife was the office mgr. has there been other staff changes?

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Abxnomore
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The center now has Dr. L an LLMD there. Let's all get that straight and stop comparing it to the old staff.

Let's hope with an LLMD there and an integrative doctor, as well, we will hear good things about this facility in the future.

For everyone, it's always best to read the whole thread, instead of just jumping in and reading the last few posts.

Dr. L is an LLMD and has been around a good long while. He has advocated for us vociferously.

Let's give him a chance. We should be happy about his new center that takes insurance, as well, until we hear otherwise.

I feel like a broken record.

Dr.PK the Phd is no longer with the center and it is newly re-structured with an LLMD, Dr. L. and Dr. B. an integrative doctor who was there in the past.

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losferwrds
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quote:
Originally posted by njgirl14:
the last time i was there was his past fall (i think, maybe longer ago not sure?) anyway there was dr pk the phd and dr b. i do not know who dr l is you are referring to.

dr b's wife was the office mgr. has there been other staff changes?

Did you go to Dr L in Marlton/Mt Laurel that closed when he went to jail for tax evasion or this guy in haverford,pa that now brought Dr L in as a consultant, being you are from Jersey I am just curious, the sales pitch is great, but the haverford place seems to treat IV only, like a chemo for cancer based on their ad, which I think is more effective than poly dosing orals but they onlyhave 5 or 6 1sentance testamonials, so its a nice pitch, just curious which one you went to.
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JRWagner
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WAIT....what's that sound??? QUACK QUACK QUACK...
PAY ME QUACK QUACK QUACK...there, now I, er., you are cured.

There are many places like this...mostly run by charlatans that like to be in the limelight.

DON"T WASTE YOUR MONEY AND TIME

BTW...Paulie, this is no reflection of you!!! I know your area of the woods well...used to got to Limerock Park to see the races...and to race a bit as well. Beautiful, if dangerous (Ticks) country.

NEXT? Lyme Disease cured using the same protocols as used on the SPACE STATION!!!!

Peace, Love and Wellness,
JRW

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Abxnomore
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He is not a quack. Go ahead a slander one of our own, a good LLMD who has helped many.

And I don't want to hear you FOOLS crying when there is no one to treat you when you will so viciously try to OUT one of our own.

This LLMD has spoken up in Washington for us, at Lyme rallies and protests and is there to help us.

You guys are fools and Quacks making assumptions based on nothing.

Way to go to bring the trolls out of the wood work.

I wonder who the real quacks are?????

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Lou B
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I know Dr L. He and I jointly called on our Representatives and Senators in Washington in the late '90's and in 2000 requesting they support programs to help the victims of Lyme and other TBD's.

He's a good man and a good doctor. Yes, he was charged and did his time on the tax issue and I'm sure, if asked, he would admit that was a big mistake. That did not and would not affect his medical license.

Now he's starting over and there's no reason to rip into him.

Take care,

--------------------
Lou B
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Keebler
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-

Thanks, Lou.

It is good to hear from someone who has worked with him with lyme advocacy.

-

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bettyg
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lou b, thx for stopping by with 1st hand experience you have with this llmd.

bury the hatchet and move on folks... [Smile]

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Tincup
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My goodness.

A Lot of "stuff" here and I'm not happy with those claims on the website, not at all.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````
EDIT- I also want to say MY opinions about the web site's claims have NO bearing on the doctors skills or intentions.

I object to what the website says and the way it is presented... NOT the doctor's skills or kindness or dedication... or treating methods.

I brought up the way this use to be done years ago... which was hard on patients who couldn't get a PCR positive... and who couldn't take Rocephin. It may be totally different now... so as I suggested, please call them if you are considering going. Just wanted to clear that up.

```````````````````````````````````````````````


1. If this is similar to the way this use to be done....

Patients had to have a series of PCR tests in order to get a positive one.... in order to prove they had Lyme before being treated. No positive, no treatment... like it states now.

I object! [lol]

PCR's are expensive. Lots of PCR's are VERY expensive.

PCR's pick up DNA of the bacteria, not necessarily just LIVE Lyme bacteria. Many patients who have Lyme do not have positive PCR's after many tests. This is a problem. This can an expensive problem.

2. The "cure" rate is about what the IDSA claims. I REALLY don't like that word "cure" being tossed around. I know better. And partly because....

3. In MY opinion there is no test that can prove the Lyme bacteria is absent from the body. I don't care how many tests you use or what special sequences or special stuff...

There are NO tests that can prove Lyme is totally absent from the body.

4. Years ago everyone was given Rocephin. No choice, that was what everyone got. You couldn't beg anything else... it was Rocephin or nothing.

I hope that would have changed, but I am questioning that due to the number of days they treat Lyme... and the fact they say IV's.

So before you make an appointment to go there, like I did at one time .... check on those facts first.

[Big Grin]

[ 05-22-2009, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Tincup ]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
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www.LymeDoc.org

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lymetwister
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Do you guys see all of the Strange characters on the Website. I see TM and &^*&^*&%%$*(&&_*(* stuff all over the text.

Is it just me, or is it my Lyme brain ?

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Abxnomore
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I see them, too. It most definitely must mean that he is out to get us all, take our money and turn us into aliens from another planet.

Oh, no........................

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nomoremuscles
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Abx,

At last, you're talking sense!

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nomoremuscles
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Just in case anyone was confused, the above was a joke.
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cantgiveupyet
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Abx lol....thanks I needed the laugh right about now.


The characters probably have something to do with the HTML code for the website.....my lymebrain guess anyway as no aliens have come for me yet ;-) but Im not too far from that clinic....so I will keep an eye on the sky

--------------------
"Say it straight simple and with a smile."

"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet,
But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."

-Schopenhauer

pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg

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Abxnomore
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It's true, on the rare occasion I do make sense [Big Grin] Heck, I even laughed.......thanks!
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pepperspeck
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Dr. L, in his pre-tax issues days, gave me my life back. I am not back to "normal", but am no longer almost 10 feet under.

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I found my original identity! It has been a bit over 12 years...can't blame me for forgetting my password, right?!!

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Abxnomore
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pepperspeck,

Thanks for posting about Dr. L. I know many others who he did the same for and mostly from the heart. Also, he didn't only use rocephin.

He was an expert in using Vanco measuring the peaks and troughs with great diligence and not all doctors do that.

JRWagner, you have been on this site since 2002. How's your health progress coming along?

Why come on and write such a negative post about a LLMD you obviously know nothing about?

Everyone should question first before we accuse. A call to his office or making contact with others who were patients of his would have been

the smart way to handle this rather than bad mouth one of our own LLMD's. I find it very sad how quickly some were ready to condemn and label a good LLMD as a charlatan and a quack.

This LLMD is no QUACK, I assure you. He knows his stuff, is a caring doctor and with his new association I'm sure he is expanding his knowledge even more.

I hope this center proves to be a great place of medical innovation and that we hear good things about it.

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polar blast
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this may not sit well with you all but 56 days to cure is bs...stop trying to find an llmd on the web! no self respecting doctor peddles his wares on the internet! my llmd would never advertise on the web..there are other doctors who think that they are the authority on lyme and put out books thinking that they are now the authority...they are preying on lymies it is that simple..as far as antibioticnomore I think that you know this doctor and trying to promote him...your posts lean toward defending a doc that you dont know..wow maybe he can cure you! that is what you must be thinking? well if he really was that good he would not need to advertise! this clinic is bull in my opinion..all because this doctor mentions a cure that we all know is not going to happen in 56 days....
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polar blast
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who says this doctor is one of our own?????
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Abxnomore
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PolarBlast,

You don't know what you are talking about but insist that you do in a very bold manner.

Dr. J has a website. Is that a bad thing? He is a highly regarded LLMD.

Lou, the moderator of this site, has already posted about this doctor on this thread.

I have met Dr. L at a Lyme rally and he was there to speak out against the IDSA and to help people like us. I was never a patient of his but I do know people who were and saw what he did for them. YES, HE IS ONE OF OUR OWN.

His website needs to lose the PR marketing claims, and I admitted that, but it is clear to me that you don't know what you are talking about and you contradict yourself in your post.

He is a smart and knowledgeable LLMD. I have met him personally and know many who he has treated. DO YOU???

No I am not trying to promote him but I don't like ridiculous accusations by those who don't know what they are talking about and no LLMD, who is putting himself on the line by helping us, should be ripped apart like this.

Email him thru his website and express your dissatisfaction with his site and his claims or better yet find out why he thinks he can do what he claims to do.

Do something constructive, instead of spewing out RAGE! You certainly are a blast, a blast of hostility!

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polar blast
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you dont know what you are talking about..my hostility is toward you! this doctor has said he can cure lyme in 56 days..cut the crap that is not a statement that a real doctor would make..period! he may be a great doc but not when he makes very serious statements that we know are not true..
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Abxnomore
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Bla, bla, bla. I'm not wasting any more time on you.

Good luck getting better.

Did you read Lou B's post above.

Sleep well.

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pepperspeck
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I was treated with vanco after a couple of

rounds of rocephine and orals. I was treated for

way more than 56 days.

His treatment got me walking again and thinking again.

I do still have issues,and am not one of his "cures". But, I was chronic when I went to him. They do not claim to cure everyone.

I (and my family) will be forever thankful for the parts of me that his treatment restored.

--------------------
I found my original identity! It has been a bit over 12 years...can't blame me for forgetting my password, right?!!

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Tincup
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This Dr. L is a LLMD.

Has been a LLMD for a LONG time and has helped many. Actually VERY many people.

The problem is the website.

The web site is NOT not accurate because it claims a cure and specifies a certain number of days to a cure... and it says a test or series of tests can show you are cured.

That is not true and to put it out there WILL upset people.

AbxNoMO.... you said .. "Also, he didn't only use rocephin."

Actually .. maybe it was before your time, but at one time he did ONLY use Rocephin and you could NOT get anything else.

Even if you were allergic to Rocephin there still was no alternate treatment offered.

It was Rocephin or nothing. I do know that to be a fact.

That does not discount his attempts to help though. It is just the way it was. People were considered to be "lucky" if they could get IV antibiotics at all back then... anywhere... and many were treated in his offices that otherwise wouldn't have been.

I sent LOTS of people there in the early days... but I knew if they couldn't get a positive PCR or couldn't use Rocephin for some reason... they were not given an alternative option.

```````````````````````````````````````````````

Polar ... you said.. "there are other doctors who think that they are the authority on lyme and put out books thinking that they are now the authority...they are preying on lymies it is that simple..."

I guess you know how ??? that statement is, don't you?

Were all of these authors who "put out books" thinking they were THE authority?

Are all these authors preying on people who buy their books?

NO. The people buy the books or read the manuals... ALL written by someone else...

So they can LEARN!!!!

See Spot run. Run Spot run. < Was this author a crook preying on little kids?

Place your right foot on the gas pedal and slowly accelerate. < Was this author teaching youths to drive ONLY because they thought they were the authority? Or to save lives maybe?

Danger! Don't put hands or feet near the turning blades. < And this author- preying on people?

Etc, etc......

Anti-freeze. Keep stored in a safe place, away from children and pets.

How To Control Plant Diseases.

Webster's Spanish Dictionary.

Field Guide to the Wildlife of Costa Rica.

Red Cross Handbook- CPR.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````
Polar said... "as far as antibioticnomore I think that you know this doctor and trying to promote him..."

I know a number of doctors and I promote them all the time.

THAT is how YOU and others get the help you need.

One time I even promoted a new mop to someone who was having a hard time using the older kinds.

They actually said "thank you".

My point... maybe re-think your post and come back with a reasonable one?

Thanks.

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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djf2005
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i live near also.

i know 2 people, one a good friend, shelled out like 5-6k, got all kinds of phosolipid blah blah Ivs, and no change.

just a heads up.

they might be trying to do the right thing, but the whole cure thing and the whole advertising thing, its kinda shameful.

if it helps some, good, but the claim of 88% is ridiculous.

im all for a cure/better treatment, sign me up, but the whole new site reeks of looking for business, although maybe im wrong.

lyme cannot be dx, treated, or cured in any standard fashion

lyme is not just lyme

it never is

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

[email protected]

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Lymeorsomething
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I'd be inclined to think that tax evaders have a little more than a fair share of self-interest, and I'm not so sure this goes away after a first offense. That coupled with the advertising amounts to a very big red flag.

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"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymeorsomething:
I'd be inclined to think that tax evaders have a little more than a fair share of self-interest, and I'm not so sure this goes away after a first offense. That coupled with the advertising amounts to a very big red flag.

I suppose we'd have to know where the lines of tax evasion are drawn. Is it a matter of too many questionable deductions over a period of time? Or is it out and out fraud? This is probably a very murky area and, like many things, somewhat dependent on the whims of the enforcement people involved. So, without the details -- details we'll never know -- this does not mean much.

What does mean a lot are the reports of people who know or have been patients of this doctor. It seems clear that he is a LLMD who is fairly well regarded, though limited in his approach, with a good understanding of this disease and the politics. Some have improved, some have not, but all paid a lot. Not too atypical.

What is not okay are the stated cure rates and times. These are beyond ridiculous, and in my mind are misleading at best -- very disingenuous -- and do not speak well of the ethics or motivations of the professionals involved.

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Abxnomore
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I agree with you totally about the website.

BUT, not about paying a lot. Everyone is confusing Dr. L. an LLMD, who is NEW to this center and did not work with the former Dr. PK.

As I understand it, when Dr. PK was there,
there wasn't a LLMD on board and they were not using ABX.

It was an alternative treatment center and the cost for treatment with the phospholipid was very high and these treatment most often are not covered by insurance.

Dr. L was never a high priced LLMD and as I recall he took insurance. He did have his

limitations in terms of treatment with positive PCR's, etc. (I mentioned that I did not agree with all of his polices in my first post & I hope he has changed those policies) but he was not the doctor who ripped people off for tons of money.

Let's be fair and set the record straight.

Again, this is not the same doctor that was orginally at this center working with phospholipids. Dr. L. is a new LLMD working at this center.

If I did not know him, his website would send up lots of red flags to me and I would not even bother read it.

But given that I do, I do think there is a possibility that the combo of a LLMD and a integrative doctor could work out well especially if you are a patient who does your homework.

I've seen some of the best LLMD's but I only stuck with the ones that were willing to listen to me and work with me and those were the ones who were open to integrative techniques and thinking outside the box when it came to ABX combos and dosages.

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AliG
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I balked at the "56 day cure" too, but I must say that if I were not where I am right now in treatment, I wouldn't hesitate to give Dr.L a shot (ESPECIALLY because they are accepting insurance!).

If they didn't get you all the way there, I think it sounds like you'd at least have a darned good start. (just my opinion)

I also believe that teaming up with CAM, he could be quite successful with treating. As I understood, prior to the tax incident, he was big on IV and had I been on IV sooner who knows whether I would still be treating now.

The co-infections need to be addressed and it sounds like they're doing that.

Those of you throwing stones, do you happen to know if the tax thing was deliberate or an oversight?

I don't recall ever hearing anything negative about him when he was practicing in NJ. If anyone else here had, please PM me.

Thanks.
[Smile]
Ali

PS-If anyone does decide to go, please PM me & let me know how you're doing in 56 days. [Wink]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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Abxnomore
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AliG

I like to see posts like yours where people can be objective.

What does it matter about his tax issues. He served his time in jail and his Medical License was not taken away. He did not harm anyone medically.

If, and I know it's a big if, he could make you significantly better would you really care about his tax issues, which are behind him now?

It wouldn't bother me if he was providing patients with impressive and lasting improvements.

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Lymetoo
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Broken record. Why are "we" still arguing about this??

The website claims suck. The doctor is an LLMD. That's been stated over and over and over and over.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Abxnomore
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Because people don't read the whole thread and keep mixing Dr. L. up with the original doctor P.K that was there before him and making comments that don't apply to Dr. L..

That is not fair. He never did the lipid stuff, in fact, he never did any alternative stuff, or overcharged people. In fact, he helped people even when they didn't have funds.

I agree. I wish this thread would go away or that people would read it all before making comments that don't apply to Dr. L and the new center.

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Lymeorsomething
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quote:
Originally posted by AliG:
Those of you throwing stones, do you happen to know if the tax thing was deliberate or an oversight?

C'mon, it's unlikely an oversight. With the doctor aside, the advertising targets the desperation of frustrated, sick people as a means to make money. Without a body of evidence, who would affiliate themselves with the place?

--------------------
"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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Lou B
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Hi LymeNet Users,

Let's move on to "Lyme victims helping Lyme victims" ... OK?

We've throughly discussed this Topic and there has been a lot of "speculation" with very few facts.

Hopefully we will have users who actually experienced treatment by this clinic and Dr L who will report in a new Topic in the future.

I do know this LLMD, as I said we met and talked a number of times and I really believe he's a good person, and I never heard a negative comment about him when he was treating prior to the tax issue and that is VERY unusual for any MD, especially an LLMD.

I don't like the claims on the web site but I hope those will change and the web site will be updated now that Dr L is coming on-board.

Since most of you are posting based on speculation / perseption and not fact based, I am closing this Topic.

Take care,

--------------------
Lou B
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