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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Results -- Hubby's New Bloodsmear

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Author Topic: Results -- Hubby's New Bloodsmear
seibertneurolyme
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Hubby had a new F lab bloodslide done on June 1, 2009. We just received a fax copy of the results from our LLMD. The picture is pretty useless as it is a fax. However, I wanted to go ahead and share the commentary printed on the page. Please note the new wording included in the results.

Notes: Many coccobacilli adherent to erythrocytes - indicated by yellow arrow(s). This is suggestive of Hemobartonella (1) or Hemoplasma (2).

References:

(1) Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine 15th edition. 2001. Boulouis HJ, Gang C, Henn J, Kasten R. Chomel BB.

Factors associated with the rapid emergence of zoonotic Bartonella infections. Vet. Res. 36 (2005) Pages 383-410 Walker TS, Winkler HH.

Bartonella bacillformis: Colonial Types and Erythrocyte Adherence. Infect Immune. 1981 Jan; 31 (1): 480-486 Tiley LP, Smith FWK.

The 5-minute Veterinary Consult 2nd edition. Williams and Wilkins 2001 Page 750.

Nelson RW, Couto CG. Small Animal Internal Medicine 3rd edition. Page 1233.

(2) Hemotropic mycoplasmas (hemoplasmas): a review and new insights into pathogenic potential. Vet. Clin. Path. 33 (2004) Pages 2-13. Messick JB

From Haemobartonella to hemoplasma : Molecular methods provide new insights. Vet. Microbio. 125 (2007) Page 197-209 Willi B, et al.

(3) Molecular and enrichment studies by Fry Laboratories show that these organisms could be Protozoal, Phylum unknown.

This stain is not FDA approved and is for research use only.


Will try to post a picture after hubby's LLMD appointment on July 1.

Bea Seibert

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Pinelady
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Thanks for sharing. We all really appreciate this

information.

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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seibertneurolyme
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As some may remember hubby has had 2 previous F slide bloodsmears -- March 2007 and August 2007.

Also a bloodsmear from Clongen Labs in November 2008.

Until I see the picture I can't say if we have actually made any real progress against the mystery pathogens.

I am still of the opinion that hubby most likely has both a protozoa and a bacteria -- and it seems like they need to be treated simultaneously to be effective. It still seems to me like there is some unknown factor that we are missing in treatment. Not sure if it is biofilms or something else.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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One other comment regarding the new bloodslide -- the picture is labeled "Special stain."

Hubby called the lab and asked if the lab also did a Geimsa stain as is listed on the test requiaition. He was told that the lab did 2 stains for him -- they generally only make one photograph of whichever slide is the best. According to their notes both the Geimsa slide and the special stain were very similar in hubby's case.

Bea Seibert

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MarsyNY
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Bea - My friend has the same NOTES only he adds
(3) Protozoan.

Wondering why it has been eliminated here. Is his Fry test then leaning more towards haemobartonella or hemoplasma?

I do see the reference (3) to protozoa.

Curious as to why it was eliminated or not added in this case.

I have not found anyone else that has "Protozoan"
on their results, is it possible that this finding could be changing yet again?

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LymeMECFSMCS
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I must have missed something since I haven't been on here much lately, but what is a "hemoplasma" -- can you direct me?
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springshowers
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I had Protozoan.

There was a month or two where he thought it was the same so it was mentioned on tests during the months around April May this year .. Then it was discovered it was not one and the same.

So.. the Protozoan is seen on another test from what I understand.

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galehane
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Bea

How is hubby doing on the new meds?

What did Clongen?s smear show?Motile bacteria?

Gale

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MarsyNY
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Spring,

Thanks for that info - my friend had her test in April and was told that it is most likely the protozoa. And that they are finding it in the sickest patients. That is how her finding was reported. She has MS, no lyme or other co-infections have been found, only this.

[ 06-24-2009, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: MarsyNY ]

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bigdreams87
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Can you let us know if he had the ring form? Any way to upload the smear?
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lou
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Seems that there is more than one critter, and they may not be seen in different labs depending on technique and stains.

The question is whether or not they are acquired from a tick or are latent/opportunistic germs taking advantage of dysregulated immune system.

And what do we do about treatment in any of these situations?

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lou
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Here are some references that may be interesting, as they sound like what is being seen in Fry Lab.

First one is about hemotrophic mycoplasmas in China

http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/15/7/1139.htm

Second one is from a vet source which says hemobartonella is now being called mycoplasma:

Title: Hemotrophic mycoplasmas (hemoplasmas): a review and new insights into pathogenic potential.
Personal Authors: Messick, J. B.
Author Affiliation: College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL 61802, USA.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Veterinary Clinical Pathology

Abstract:

The red cell parasites formerly known as Haemobartonella and Eperythrozoon spp. have been reclassified as hemotrophic mycoplasmas (hemoplasmas) based on strong phylogenetic evidence and 16S ribosomal RNA gene sequences. The latter form the basis for polymerase chain reaction assays used to detect infection. Candidatus designation was given to incompletely characterized species. Like other mycoplasmas, hemoplasmas are small epicellular parasites that lack a cell wall and are susceptible to tetracyclines; their circular, double-stranded DNA encodes only those gene products essential for life.

Diseases caused by infection with hemoplasmas range from overt life-threatening hemolytic anemia to subtle chronic anemia, ill-thrift, and infertility. In addition, the organisms may act as cofactors in the progression of retroviral, neoplastic, and immune-mediated diseases. Intimate contact of hemoplasma organisms with RBCs leads to cell injury through immune-mediated and other mechanisms that have not yet been defined. Despite an intense immune response and even with antibiotic treatment, infected animals probably remain chronic carriers after clinical signs have resolved.

Publisher: American Society of Veterinary Clinical Pathology

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Myco
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Very interesting. I have long suspected a link between Mycoplasma and what many are calling "chronic Lyme". Many people I know never remember a bite and have infected their spouses.
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seibertneurolyme
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Lou,

I think you are on the right track.

Will try tomorrow to figure out how to post a photo which I have never done before.

Hubby just got back from his LLMD appointment.

Bigdreams -- no ring form in the photos. Hubby did originally have what was labeled as ring form of babesia on his first F lab bloodsmear back in March of 2007. Treated with low dose quinine and clindamycin for 4 months (this was the 3rd 4 month round on those meds in 3 years if I remember correctly).

Also treated with low dose primaquine and chloroquine for 2 rounds (Liz 28 protocol). Then did 6 weeks of Iv Primaxin. Also did 10 days of cryptolepis at 5 droppers 3 times daily. By the end of this treatment when his 2nd F lab bloodsmear was done in September of 2007 the ring forms were gone -- but not the bacteria.

Since then hubby has also treated with 8 months of Alinia (4 months at half dose and 4 months at full dose) plus Bactrim -- think this combo finally finished off any remaining babesia.

To get back to hubby's LLMD appointment -- will post how he is doing in the update thread I started when he went on the Daraprim (toxoplasmosis med).

NEW INFO on the mystery bug --

Talked to Dr K at Clongen for the first time in several months -- he has bought a new more powerful microscope recently. He is now in agreement with F lab that the dots seen on the bloodsmears are actually bacteria and not parasites -- even though he has been unable to do 16S DNA sequencing of these organisms.

Dr K also says that he has seen a blood parasite (with toxoplasmosis characterisitics) in a small number of blood smears -- many less people have the parasite than have the bacteria. So it looks like both labs are now seeing the same things.

Hubby's LLMD is pretty well convinced that the bacteria being seen by F lab is a haemobartonella -- this is a type of mycoplasma that has been reclassified recently if I understood correctly.

Of course when I asked the doc what was the optimum treatment he told me that nothing so far has worked. He had told us at the last appointment that even when his patients improved symptomwise no one ever got a clean F slide if they had a positive F slide to begin with.

The new plan for hubby is to change lots of meds and herbs -- I had stopped or run out of several herbs and hubby has not been doing well at all. Basically we had been concentrating on treating a parasite and ignoring the BLO/mycoplasma angle.

I guess we are making some progress since it took over a month for hubby to get really sick where in the past that would have probably happened in only a day or two. That thought wasn't too much comfort for hubby though.

Started hubby back on the HH today and also increased his cryptolepis to 10 droppers 3 times per day. Goal is still 15 droppers 3 times per day for a couple of months if we can afford it. I think the HH must be helping some already as hubby didn't have his usual waking up with dry heaves episode that has been happening with increasing frequency -- at least nightly for the last couple of weeks.

The big med change is to start hubby on Factive. Hopefully insurance preapproval will get done on Monday as the pills cost $30 each without insurance. Not sure what dosing others here are taking -- plan is for hubby to pulse the med 5 days on and 10 days off.

Back in December of 2007 Levaquin was the closest thing hubby had ever taken to a miracle drug so I am optimisitic that the Factive will work.

Hubby has had positive tests for cold agglutins at least 4 times since he started trying to treat with Bart meds -- the most common cause of this is mycoplasma pneumonia.

I was surprised that plaquenil caused cold agglutins recently, but hubby just could not stay on that med due to intolerable insomnia. In the past SpiroKete (from Kroeger herbs) also caused this -- the primary ingredient is monolaurin which is supposed to work on viruses and maybe biofilms.

That reminds me that the doc also wants hubby to try Lumbrokinase for biofilms (took this for a while several years ago). For now I plan to keep hubby on the Vitalzym as well as he has seemed to do well on that.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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Lou,

Not sure I would agree with the statement in the article regarding an intense immune response. I was under the impression that BLO was similar to bartonella in that it caused immune suppression?

Hubby did have a PCR test from Clongen labs for mycoplasma species which was of course negative in December 2008. Obviously if this is a mycoplasma species it is not any of the common ones which are normally tested for. Of course there is probably a high false negative rate for mycoplasma PCR testing -- can't find any data on that though.

Bea Seibert

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lou
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Yes, I think some statements that are made about poorly known microbes have to be put into the maybe file.

There was an article some time ago about how various mycoplasma species react to meds, and there was quite a difference in response. So, it may be hard to tell what will work on this one. And not sure if that article was distinguishing between hemotrophic mycoplasma and other types. Probably not, since this is a recent reclassification--calling these things mycoplasma now instead of hemobartonella.

Wondering if the usual course of events will take place: identify the bug, do in vitro response testing to various meds. Find something that works best, then see if there is any correlation with what happens in vivo.

Have heard of factive being used in combo with another drug for treating mycoplasma, but don't know which group of mycoplasmas this would apply to. The other problem is that some of us, like me, cannot do anymore fluoroquinolones because of tendon damage.

As far as pcr testing goes for mycoplasma species, I doubt that anyone is testing yet for these hemotrophic mycoplasmas. If they don't know what they are specifically, how could they have primers for accurate testing? If I understand testing?????

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galehane
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Right about commercial labs not testing for haemoplasmas.They can do that in advanced labs with access to reserarch primers not commersially available- that increases the cahnces for a hit that enables them to sequence the organism.Much simpler with bacteria than with parasitic organisms.
But- as I have been insisting- this is not a job that can be done by a lab without great resources preferably in oopeperation in a (for us) relevant time time horizon.Few- if any- new human pathogenes have been discovered by small commercial labs for very very many years.
These are facts.
Lou,you blame the CDC.Personally, I believe that it would be in our best interest if more energy was spent on making the established research labs aware of the problem- also on Fry`s part.In this respect I have done what I could, myself.

I had negative pcr- tests for haemoplasmas in a a vet uni research lab.Informed Fry- he couldnt care less, although he didnt even have a pcr- facility himself at that time.
BTW, mycoplsma has no cell wall- therefore staining is not possible - at least according to theory so far??

Gale

[ 07-04-2009, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: galehane ]

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bigdreams87
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Is haemobartonella gram negative?

Bea:

Fry is reporting two bugs, the toxoplasmosis like parasite and also the haemobartonella bacteria. I had the ring in the RBC and he told me it was the parasite and that I had haemobartonella. CONFUSING!!!

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bigdreams87
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nevermind I answered my own question. The bacteria is gram negative and fry patients have said in other forums this one is.

HH capsules should work then.

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lou
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Gale, I am really tired of your bashing Fry. It does not help. They have tried to interest other big labs and are consulting with a university lab already. They are doing what they can in a situation where new microbe identification is not a priority, and certainly not in connection with lyme patients.

So, will you please shut up about Fry? It is unfair and wrong, and you are not even in the U.S. and haven't a clue about the CDC. If you did not get what you considered a satisfactory reply from Fry, you may have your attitude and methods to thank for this. They have certainly turned me and others off, and probably have done the same at Fry. Are you always this unreasonable about other things too?

If, as the article I posted above suggests, hemoplasmas are emerging infections, then testing is not going to be good anywhere. In the Canadian university where the China article originated, they have not been able to identify the human strain yet, and they have big time resources available. And it may be that the Chinese species/strain will be different from those in other countries.

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seibertneurolyme
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lou,

All of this speculation regarding mycoplasma and BLO reminds me of a Lyme support group meeting I attended in New York City where Dr B spoke (December 2007). He said that after he retired he reviewed the records of all 8000 or maybe it was 11,000 patients he had seen over the years.

According to him the patients who did not get well either had undiagnosed or untreated mycoplasma or bartonella or BLO. At that time he said the same meds would work for all of those infections.

If one can't take the fluroquinolones (Levaquin, Cipro or Factive) that still leaves Rifampin as a possibility I guess.

After one month on the full dose (600 mg) of Rifampin hubby crashed in October of 2008. We had taken 8 months to work up to the therapeutic dose on that med and 4 others. Have tried him on Rifampin a couple of times since and he has had major problems with that med. Actually I was expecting his LLMD suggest we try Rifampin again instead of the Factive.

I am just hoping that something works as the dystonia is getting really bad again and I don't want a repeat of 2007 with all the ER and hospital visits.

Can't find much info on haemoplasma or haemobartonella. According to Clongen regular mycoplasma are too small to see with most standard microscopes. That was one reason we did the PCR test.

Per hubby's request F lab is sending us a 2nd photo -- when I get the photo of the giemsa stain then I will figure out how to post both pictures -- the giemsa stain and the special stain.

Bea Seibert

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galehane
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Lou

From the.....plasma link you posted it says
"Human infections were confirmed by clinical and laboratory methods (2). We reinvestigated blood samples of >600 pigs with previous diagnoses of mycoplasma infection accompanied by clinical signs of fever and jaundice. Slides were made and stained in Giemsa-staining solution. We used light microscopy to look for the presence of M. suis on the erythrocyte surface. We also used fluorescence microscopy to look for the microbes by mixing a drop of infected blood with acridine orange solution (0.1 mg/mL). The microbes bound to red blood cells were examined with a confocal microscope. Positive cases were further confirmed by PCR using primers of the small subunit RNA gene sequences. All samples were PCR positive, but PCR sensitivity is higher than sensitivity of acridine orange staining, which is higher than sensitivity of Geimsa staining."

Seems these bugs can be stained.Apart from that my points are very clear.
The reaearch has been meade by large public research institutions in Sweeden as well as China.The percentage of people being infected in china is of course of interest.

I am simply trying to make sense of Frys messages - from his radio-announcements to the mission of his research foundtion.

"SWCCD's focus is to identify the underlying cause of Chronic Inflammatory Disease. We believe and have evidence to show that most inflammatory diseases are caused by a common infectious organism. With additional funding we plan to determine the genetics and growth characteristics of this pathogen. We then need to prove the prevalence of this pathogen to the medical community. By understanding the biology of this pathogen we hope to identify and target its weakness with current available therapeutics, help to discover new therapies, and develop methods for prevention. "
Gale

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seibertneurolyme
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lou,

I followed some of the references you posted and came across a couple of other relevant journal articles.

Identification of a Haemomycoplasma Species in Anemic Reindeer

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/full/42/2/249

Some very interesting pictures there. Also note the quote below.

Quote -- Transmission of haemomycoplasmas in other species has been shown to be accomplished by a number of blood-feeding arthropod vectors including ticks, mosquitoes and stable flies. -- End Quote -- the references are in the article

Also another interesting article showing the various species.

RNase P RNA Gene Phylogeny of Hemoplasmas and Other Mycoplasma Species

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/46/5/1873

Bea Seibert

[ 07-04-2009, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: seibertneurolyme ]

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galehane
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very very interesting links.

In particular, I think,

The "distance" between morphology and identification.The dots may be very different organisms

Does the fact that most people with this finding are not anaemic etc point to difference in immunological strenth or to different pathogenes?

Also the treatment regimen mentioned regarding deers- an antihelmetic- not antibiotic.

Wonder what the white blood-cells look like if that many organisms in the blood-stream are going to be kept in check?

Gale

[ 07-05-2009, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]

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bears1985
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Lou...thanks for standing up to the negativity. It is ridiculous in here. I refuse to come on this site and post...just interested in reading the Dr F - haters post(s). It really makes me sick and that is why I refuse to make a habit of being on this site. When I used to second GUESS everything...like Gale, I got sicker and sicker and from listening to Gale...she seems very ill.

*Just an update on all the negativity...animal models will be used within the next months to test thousands of drug combos on the new organism.*

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lou
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Thanks for your support, bears. I did not bother to read his latest posts. Apparently the moderators are worn out from the job, because he should have been kicked off the forum long ago, along with someone else who bashes lyme docs. In the past, people who did this consistently were banished.

I fail to see how hounding and criticizing pioneers in a field can improve the rate of discovery. It is more likely to have the opposite effect. And this would hurt a lot of people who are depending on progress in this field. Like me.

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bigdreams87
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This is confusing - is this concerning the opportunistic gram negative bacteria, or the rbc protozoan? There has been mention of both in former threads.
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karenl
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Bea, thanks for posting the results. I had the same text two years ago and could reduce the many to few with 15 HH in a few weeks.

But now I am still on " few" and have the exact same picture and Fry calls it now mycoplasma. I added 6 Coptis and I am getting stronger.

Does anyone know if Dr. S still calls this Fry test bartonella?? Did we even have bartonella?

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bigdreams87
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He refers to it as bartonella, but he is unsure - that's about as much as I can gather from him. HH kills gram negative bacteria, which this is.. I believe.
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bigdreams87
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Also, when the "bug" was sent around the world looking for a "match," was it for the protozoan or this haemobartonella? or for both?
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seibertneurolyme
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Karen,

Thanks for sharing that somewhat encouraging news. After today hubby really needed to hear something at least a little positive.

I seriously considered taking him to the ER today -- the last week has been the worst in several months. He will start the Factive tomorrow and is hoping for a miracle.

Not exactly sure myself what is going on -- either stopping the Benicar was a really big mistake or something else I have done recently has brought back way too many old symptoms -- dystonia, myoclonus, dry heaves, vomiting etc etc -- ending with an episode where he was pretty much locked up and unable to move or speak for a couple of hours. The one absolutely last resort IV med worked miraculously. Brain inflammation is the only explanation that seems even realistic to me at this point.

Bears -- Thanks for the update.

Bea Seibert

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karenl
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bigdream,

with "HE " do you mean Dr. S or Dr. F?

In any case it is gramneg. and HH works - but does not finally kill them all.
I did a blood test for toxo yesterday and waiting fo the results.

Bea,
I am not healthy, but constantly the same. Is hubby able to work? I am too fatigued.
I will start adding some artemisia to coptis soon.

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seibertneurolyme
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Karenl,

Hubby has been sick and on disability for over 8 years. Was undiagnosed the first 2 years. Main symptoms have always been G.I. and neuro.

Had improved greatly and seizure-like episodes had finally decreased to once every 7 - 10 days back in January this year. But recently returned 2 or 3 times daily. LLMD thinks these are really dystonia symptoms (the hypothalamus or pituitary is not getting enough blood and oxygen) and this causes dry heaves, tremors, myoclonus and when things get really bad freezing up episodes where hubby can't speak or move -- will last for hours without IV meds.

Anyway, the Factive does seem to be decreasing the frequency of his spells and helping some with dizzyness. Hubby is worried about the 10 days off -- you take this medicine for 5 days and then 10 days off.

I got the 100 grams of the H.H. herb which is supposed to be a 5:1 extract and have added 1 500 mg capsule to the 3 HH hubby already takes. Will increase the dose on the days he is off the Factive. Just not sure what else to do right now.

May also talk to his doc about increasing his Minocycline (at 100 mg daily now for several months).

What lab did your toxo test? Hubby had a positive test from Diagnostechs over a year ago, but that test doesn't show whether it is an active infection.

Bea Seibert

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karenl
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Bea,
is your HH cheaper than Dr. Z's ? I need a lot- 15 a day.
Be careful with HH, add only a little each day.

I had the toxoplasmosis tested at labcorp, IGM and IGG was both negative. I do not have a LLMD at the moment and did not know Diagnos offers it.

But I have the mystery Fry bug and the band 41 and I am sick. I will add a little arte to Coptis soon.
My dizziness is only when there is mold.
I am so sorry your hubby is sick since 8 years,
I am in year 7 now, this bug is causing fatigue. I found now that I am low on Vit. D and that might cause vibrations.

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seibertneurolyme
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Karen,

The houttuynia is much cheaper from 1st Chinese Herbs -- however, it may not be totally comparable to the HH from Zhang -- I think from what I have read that Zhang's HH may be a standardized formula that has a guaranteed minimum concentration of the active ingredient.

The HH from Zhang comes 45 pills per bottle -- 250 mg capsules.

1st Chinese Herbs offers 2 choices --

houttuynia powdered herb -- $14.99 per one pound

and a 5:1 concentrated powder for $17.99 per 100 grams -- I used size 0 capsules which hold approximately 450 mg -- ordered the capsules and capsule machine from there also -- 100 grams of the concentrate should make about 222 capsules

Right now hubby is still taking 3 of the Zhang capsules and one of the capsules from the concentrate -- plan to increase on the 10 days while he is off his antibiotic

http://1stchineseherbs.com/houtuynia.html

Let me know if you try either of the powdered herbs from 1st Chinese Herbs how you think they compare to the Zhang HH.

Bea Seibert

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karenl
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Bea, thanks for the link. I think they are a lot cheaper. I need some time to make this decision.

Did you also test the artemisia from them? My son has babs.anf takes Dr. Z 's arte. All together it adds up. I am not sure about the quality of the other company.

I think Dr. Z is ok and feel comfortable with his products. I also love his Gall I, it saves your gallbladder.
Karen

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cottonbrain
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Bea, thanks for the interesting link about the reindeer mycoplasma.

Gale, what you point out about treatment is interesting! antihelmintics are recommended, rather than antibiotics.

I found this definition:

anthelmintic
[ant′helmin′tik]

Etymology: Gk, anti + helmins, against worms
1 pertaining to a substance that destroys or prevents the development of parasitic worms, such as filariae, flukes, hookworms, pinworms,

roundworms, schistosomes, tapeworms, trichinae, and whipworms.

2 an anthelmintic drug. An anthelmintic may interfere with the parasites' carbohydrate metabolism, inhibit their respiratory enzymes, block their neuromuscular action, or render them susceptible to destruction by the host's macrophages.

Drugs used in treating specific helmintic infections include piperazine, pyrantel pamoate, pyrvinium pamoate, mebendazole, niclosamide, hexylresorcinol, diethylcarbamazine, and thiabendazole.

-Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. 2009, Elsevier.
********

Has anyone here ever tried any of these drugs???

Is it coincidental that some people seem to herx after using products like Humaworm? (I had no reaction to Humaworm at all)

Bea and Karen, do the HH caps go after babesia/ mystery bug much as artemisinin does? Can you take it along with mepron?

I thought Factive was for Bart? It is very confusing because now the lines between Bart / BLO / and babesia are blurring.

Bea, are the HH caps intended to be pulsed? Or can you take them along with Factive and/or Mepron? I know your hubby is sensitive to meds, so maybe that is why he wants to take while on the break from Factive?

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bigdreams87
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Karenl,

I meant Dr. S refers to it as bart. Only because of the fact that when he has treated for bart, the smear finding totally went away. So he chooses to believe it is bart. I was also told that the finding was sent off to a bart specialty facility and it was confirmed not bart. Obviously with all this talk it's been pointed out to be some sort of mycoplasma. If you buy Zhang's lyme book he lists the pharmacology and references for what HH kills, both gram positive and negative bacteria. I think it could also kill mycoplasma, and or haemobart...

Also, when you refer to the "mystery bug" do you mean the haemobartonella or the protozoa? On 75% of the threads the mystery bug is the protozoa and is the big break through. Now the discussion has turned to haemobart. In my case, my smear had babesia rings and he labled it haemobart/mycoplasma. Really confusing!!

I think the artesunate would work for the haemobart if it is inside the red blood cell as the art is a free radical maker that blows up organisms inside the red blood cell.

Zhang is getting new HH that is double the potency so essentially you are getting double the value for your money. I am taking 20 pills a day and doing well with it.

He is also getting a new form/derivative of artesunate that is more potent as well.

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galehane
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cottonbrain

I believe that the problem for many chronic lymies is a parasitic one.And that the pcrs etc Fry seems to have have made point in that direction.However,I do not believe that the dots on the Erothrocytes in the smears from frylabs have anything to do directly with the patogenes at play in general.They might be Howell jolly bodies (look exactly like it).The question really is why so many lymies have these jolly bodies?Affection of the spleen?
Much greater chance that the pathogenes are the motile bacteria? and the parasitic -like organisms observed by other labs.
Tried Albendazole - did not work.

Gale

[ 07-12-2009, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]

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MarsyNY
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Bea, from the research that you've done it does seem like maybe this is both the haemoplasma and protozoa. From what you posted up on top though the finding of protozoa #3 does not show up?

Guys,
Are we going back to where we were a year ago? I think maybe some people here do not remember the work that Gale did pertaining to the haemobartonella/mycoplasma findings. I'll post the link when I find it. Trying to expedite the reasearch, giving the Dr. credit, no bashing.


http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/67269#000006

It is frustating we read loads of papers on haemobartonella/mycoplasma and then were told that the main finding was this new toxo-like protozoan sent around the world (no matches)

BigBears, The focus at the lab is this new protozoa however last year it was the haemobartonella/mycoplasma finding. So it is obviously still in the mix as some people have come back with both results.

Unfortunately this particular emerging infection (haemobartonella/mycoplasma has been around for over 40 years - So please dont take this as bashing but we need all the help we can get
in moving this along furthering the great work of Dr.F and his lab.

Cottonbrain, the antihelmitic was successful for the nematodes not the haemplasma. As the article and Gale mentions useless in the treatment of those organisms. Antibiotics are needed.

From the article:

Although some animals also were infected with trychostrongyle abomasal nematodes, which likely contributed to their anemic states, an aggressive anthelmintic program was eventually found that eliminated the trichostrongyle abomasal nematodes; however, animals continued to experience bouts of anemia with haemomycoplasma organisms demonstrated in blood smears and by PCR after the nematodes were eliminated from the herd.

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cottonbrain
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for people like me who are still learning, i bet you laughed at Gale's Howell jolly bodies, didn't you? i know i did!


here's an explanation from
http://diaglab.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/rbcmorph/hj.htm



Howell-Jolly bodies in the blood of a (non-anemic) splenectomized dog.

Howell-Jolly bodies (H-J) bodies are small fragments of non-functional nucleus which were not extruded as the cell left the marrow. Usually, but not always, the host red cell contains only a single HJ body, which appears as

a blue, perfectly round inclusions. Occasionally, uneven staining of an H-J body can result in a ring-like appearance which may mimic a parasite.
In dogs and ruminants, these escapees are not routinely observed in peripheral blood because they are removed from the red cells by the pitting function of the sinusoidal spleen. Their numbers do increase to detectable levels in

regenerative anemias in these and other species. In bovine species, they must be differentiated from Anaplasma organisms.
In normal cats and horses (non-sinusoidal spleens), and in any species with compromised or absent splenic function (corticosteroids, splenectomy), low numbers are seen in the blood

of non-anemic patients. In non-anemic miniature and toy poodles with hereditary macrocytosis, increased numbers of Howell-jolly bodies (some abnormal and fragmented) may be observed.

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seibertneurolyme
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Marsy is correct -- the article I linked to regarding the anemic reindeer found both a nematode and haemomycoplasma. They treated the deer which had the nematode with antiparasite meds and the deer still had anemia issues -- so the conclusion was that the haemomycoplasma was causing the anemia and it was not caused by the parasites.

As far as Howell-Jolly bodies -- the pictures I have seen do not look like the F lab slides to me. Often F lab slides have multiple bacteria and usually the bacteria are on the perimeter (surround the cell) whereas Howell-Jolly bodies are larger and almost always limited to one per red blood cell and they are not on the perimeter of the cells.

Cottonbrain -- I do not think that HH will work on babs or the mystery protozoa. It takes very specific meds and herbs to treat blood borne parasites. Yes HH and Factive are used to treat Bart/BLO/mycoplasma and hopefully haemoplasma or whatever this mystery bacteria is.

The HH does not need to be pulsed. Hubby has taken it in the past with different antibiotics and continued taking it with the Factive -- I just plan on using a higher dose when he is off the Factive. As with all fluroquinolones Factive can cause tendenitis and I think that is one of the reasons it is pulsed -- Levaquin and Cipro are not pulsed though.

Karen -- In the past hubby took the Allergy research or Nutricology (same company) brands of artemesinin. Zhang artemesia is actually artensunate (may not be spelled correctly) which is a different derivative of artemesia and it may be more potent. the important thing to remember about artemesia and any of its derivatives -- the newest research shows that this herb must be pulsed -- take it for either 3 or 4 days max and then take 3 or 4 days off.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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Personally I am of the opinion that the mystery bacteria is not just in the bloodstream but may be hiding in tissues and organs as well. LymeMD actually mentioned this awhile ago -- it would be very unusual for a bacteria to simply be free floating in the bloodstream. In my opinion most likely it attaches and forms colonies protoected by some sort of biofilm -- kind of the same way that plaque builds up in the arteries.

If it is a mycoplasma -- different species are known to attack specific organ systems -- m.pneumonia or m. genitalium for example.

Bea Seibert

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lassie
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Uhm...what is "HH"?
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karenl
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Bea,
you are right this mystery thing is not only in the blood. My lupus is SSB that means in the tissue and all my findings are in the tissue.
In the blood I have few.
I do not know if the mystery bug is the hemobartonella or mycoplasma or protozoa.
I have always the identical blood smear, always a few and the exact same picture with another word. Last was protozoa. I am getting tired of
all those words and no diagnosis.
By the way my Vit. D was very low and that can make a person feel very sick.


cottonbrain:
HH does not work for the protozoa, Dr. Z told me Coptis 6 a day works for the protozoa, also together with HH. Probably even with arte, but I will only add later. But I think you need the HH for this gram negative bacteria attached to it.
I am now on 12 HH and 6 Coptis.

bigdream: The truth is I was treated more than 2 years by Dr.S with overdosing of everything including all kinds of antibiotics for bart and my smear did n o t went away !!! So it is probably not bart. My Igenex always was neg. for bart as well. Only my Fry showed something.
HH definitely has some influence on the mystery bug.

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seibertneurolyme
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Lassie,

HH is the Zhang brand of a chinese herb called houttuynia.

http://www.hepapro.com

Dr Z practices in New York City. He has written a book on Healing Lyme Disease with Chinese medicine. Available at the website or from Amazon and elsewhere.

Bea Seibert

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galehane
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I believe it is difficult to tell from the morphology what is what.For me the dots on the RBCs are not the pathogenes that I fight.

According to a haematologist my dots are jolly bodies

http://tinyurl.com/n5lxbl


If the parasite/bacteria is something/somewhere else is seems as if it is affecting the spleen in many chronic lymies??

Having posted alot about the fry dots I believe now that it has nothing at all to do with patogenes directly.Fry may be on to something with his new pcrs- that is the way I see it.most people here disaggree- that is just so.
Gale

[ 07-16-2009, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]

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bettyg
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gale,

please copy your LONG link making this DOUBLE WIDE and go to www.tinyurl.com and make it a small one.

delete your LONG one and copy new short one there so with is back to NORMAL! thx [Smile]

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lassie
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Thanks, Bea.

I, too, tested positive for hemobartonella through Fry's lab. My LLMD is treating it with Bactrim. I've only been taking it for about ten days, so who knows if this will work.

I am too brainfogged to read and understand as I would like to; definitely too scared right now to add something new.

Thanks again.

Lassie

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bigdreams87
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Notes: Many coccobacilli adherent to erythrocytes - indicated by yellow arrow(s). This is suggestive of Hemobartonella (1) or Hemoplasma (2).

This is what mine said, but I had the rings that I have been told are Babesia.

Bea,

Was I wonder if #3 applies to the slide, if not why is it added underneath?

"(3) Molecular and enrichment studies by Fry Laboratories show that these organisms could be Protozoal, Phylum unknown."

It IS a protozoan???

Also your mailbox is always full.

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MarsyNY
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Big,

It is added as an explanation if your test results come up with #3 protozoan.

My friend had all 3 under notes/results

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