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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » FLU SHOTS BEWARE!!!!!!! (Page 1)

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Author Topic: FLU SHOTS BEWARE!!!!!!!
Stacyb
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A journalist has filed a lawsuit against the W.H.O. accusing it of bioterrorism through its swine flu vaccination agenda:

http://www.naturalnews.com/026503_pandemic_swine_flu_bioterrorism.html

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Lymetoo
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I pass on ALL vaccines.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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randibear
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yeah me too. one shot and i ws miserable for two years and it started a mess i still ain't over.

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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Tracy9
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A couple of weeks ago I had a Tetanus, Diptheria and Whooping cough vaccine and I had a severe allergic reaction. I was in bed terribly ill for about three days.

I got heart palpitations, extreme fatigue, dizziness, etc. I didn't connect it to the shot until the next day when I noticed the paper lying on the table and read the side effects.

--------------------
NO PM; CONTACT: [email protected]

13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG.

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tickbattler
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I am now against vaccines as well but if this swine flu mutates and comes back in a much more dangerous and deadly way...what would you do?

tickbattler

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Starfall1969
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I pass on the flu shots too.

I'm really starting to rethink vaccines in general.

My older son just had his chicken pox vaccine--I think that vaccine is a major joke anyway, but the school said he needed it to get in...

His leg swelled horribly for a day or two, and he was in PAIN.

That's the first time he has reacted that badly to a vaccine.

I still haven't gotten my 2 year old his MMR shot.

Don't know if I will till he goes to school.

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Dekrator48
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Up until my Lyme diagnosis this year, I always got a flu shot in the fall.

I asked my LLMD if I should still get vaccines and he recommended against them.

--------------------
The fibromyalgia I've had for 32 years was an undiagnosed Lyme symptom.

"For I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". -Jeremiah 29:11

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pryorka
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the flu shot is what started my illness. Nothing like a nice dose of mercury to keep the flu away.
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Nicole_Denise
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I have all the regular vaccines (measles, mumps, tetanus, hepatits etc.)

But I've never gotten a flu shot- I just don't think it's worth it. I never seem to get the flu anyway.

Starfall- I didn't even know they did chickenpox vaccines?? I thought you just tried your hardest to make sure your kids caught chickenpox when they were little.

I even seem to remember something about "chickenpox parties"?

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lymielauren28
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Grandmother is absolutely right. This is about much more than vaccines. This is a sinister plot...one that's been in the making for longer than most of us have been alive. In Grandmother's words: PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND IT.

Lauren

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"The only way out is through"

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charlie
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...I got real sick from the first swine flu vaccine back in the 1970s.

never again.

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luvs2ride
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I plan to research this article to weed out the bias. I absolutely believe that it could all be true, I just want verifiable facts. For instance, if you read the actual lawsuit found in one of the links, it doesn't claim all that the article claims, so I believe some bias has been applied.

All that I can verify, I plan to broadcast as far and wide as my voice will carry.

Beyond that, if powerful people are determined to bring genocide upon us, we can do little to stop it. Be prepared to die. Being prepared to die is more important than trying to stay alive.

That probably does not make sense to anyone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. Please think about it.

And don't take a flu shot!

Luvs

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Pinelady
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I don't plan on it. If the new Lyme shot for

animals is ready. What adverse event reporting

system is in place? Will reports simply go to the

manufacturer or it there a check in place with the

government. Or do they simply rely on the honor

system for reports. I know we have VAERS. What do we have for animals?

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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lymielauren28
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"Being prepared to die is more important than trying to stay alive."

Luvs, what a beautiful, simple, and true statement.

I don't want to go, but when I do I know where I'm going [Wink]

Lauren

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"The only way out is through"

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Janice70
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I had the swine flu. I was miserable, but I would do it again rather than get the vaccine.
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Janice70
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Starfall, your son's school withheld very important information from you. You can get an

exemption to the vaccine requirements for school.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/028/chapter23/s23.84.html

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linky123
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We've gotten our last flu shots, and won't take a swine flu vaccine either.

Felt much worse after the flu shot last fall.

Linky

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lymemomtooo
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I am very concerned about this flu..I have a fairly new granddaughter and not sure if children can or can not take the shot...

And for myself, I got the shot this year and got the flu, bronchritis and double pneumonia..NOt pretty. Not sure if my respiration will ever be normal and terrified if I get this new crap..

I am not afraid of new mercury..I have cleaned up part of a spilled bottle by hand..How stupid, I know but then no one warned us and the Chemistry teacher had no fear. lmt

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Tracy9
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Janice, interesting to hear you got through the Swine Flu....I've been very concerned about how us Lymies would fare with it with all our underlying medical conditions.

--------------------
NO PM; CONTACT: [email protected]

13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG.

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D Bergy
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The bottom line is there is no scientific evidence that flu shots prevent flu deaths. There is evidence that it does not prevent flu deaths.

Why do something that has no proof of effectiveness what so ever?

There is no way to even assess flu vaccinations anecdotally.

Dan

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luvs2ride
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up

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Blackstone
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Please, please don't write off the concept of vaccines. Find mercury-free ones and those with few preservatives but there's a lot of alarmism I'm reading about the concept of vaccines themselves that is quite frankly dangerous. Small Pox was literally eradicated by vaccine, and childhood illness and mortality dropped drastically.

I agree that many of today's vaccines have too much "non-vaccine" junk in them, and that giving too many at one time overwhelms vulnerable individuals but smart application of vaccines has prevented countless illnesses over the years since their inception.

Also that article is pure tinfoil-hat. Honestly, when are these FEMA Camps going to be used? I've been hearing about them for years now. Vaccination is not mandatory, and I think a weaponized flu virus meant to cause "instant death' would be noticed if people started dropping dead. People can still refuse flu shots, or any sort of vaccination. You may not be able to send your children to school unvaccinated, but nobody is going to force it. If the "swine flu" was a bioweapon, its really doing a poor job of it. For all the panic, it has been a very mild outbreak - the "regular" flu has killed way more than H1A1! All the "common conspiracy players are here" New world order, Illuminati, FEMA camps, a shadow government blah blah blah. This is unattenuated, pure bull.

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luvs2ride
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Blackstone,
I have been searching and searching and cannot find any mention of this lawsuit on any mainstream news media and I am beginning to think you are right.

Also, I agree that the H1N1 swine flu has been laughably mild so far, but then why, oh why, has the WHO declared a pandemic already regarding H1N1?

I have written to a number of media asking for information regarding this lawsuit. If any respond, I will report it here.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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lymielauren28
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Blackstone, I agree with you somewhat...and also disagree. I think the whole New World Order, Illuminati thing has been waaaaay over dramatized and some of the info on the internet is laughable at best and completely ridiculous at worst.

However, that doesn't mean it is't real. If you can sort through all the bull, all the hype and all the sensationalism it still "is what it is".

As far as the swine flu is concerned...what a joke! No, it's definately NOT a bioweapon - in my opinion it's just another tool to instill fear in the hearts and minds of the American people. Keep us afraid! As long as were scared of something we'll all be good little sheep and do whatever our government tells us is best for us.

Under the guise of fear our government has been able to pass numerous laws that strip us of our rights and that are blatantly unconstitutional.

The war on drugs. The war on terror. It never stops. The media constantly hammering away and telling us all the things we should be scared of. I'm not saying that the war on drugs and the war on terror aren't real. They are. They shouldn't be taken lightly. But hey, while I was busy being afraid of those things I ran smack into Lyme disease, something that's NEVER talked about in the media. They pick and choose what they want us to be afraid of.

If you go to the WHO website and look at their "threat" levels regarding a pandemic and all the different policies and international laws that go along with each level - it's sickening!!

Under a level 6 we are at the mercy of international law. They CAN inforce mandatory vaccinations. Anyone who refuses the vaccine faces fines and or imprisonment. Now I don't care what your political affiliations or views are...democrat, republican, libertarian, whatever...that should scare everybody.

Read the Patriot Act that was passed after 9/11. That should scare the hell out of everybody too. I'm not the only one with concerns that our government is way too big and way too powerful - many senators, congressman, and state governers feel the same way. So much so that many states are now seceding from the union and drawing a line in the sand.

I want to clarify that I am not anti - american. I'm as patriotic as they come and I LOVE this country. But as Americans we have got to realize that we have been brainwashed into believing that we better agree with and stand by our government no matter what - anything else is "un-patriotic". They don't want free thinkers, they want to think for us.

I used to be a hardcore Republican, lol. I blamed democrats for everything. I've realized though that the whole "party" thing is one of the biggest lies ever told to the American people. It's another tool that the government uses to do whatever they want and to keep the American people divided and at odds with each other. As long as the blame can be placed on "democrats" or "republicans" no one can place the blame where it really belongs. Someone is yanking our chains people!

One more thing that I want to add before I get off my soapbox - our own military is being trained to turn against us in the event of a national disaster. They've had to fill out questionares asking, "In the event of a national disaster, assuming there were mass chaos, would you be willing to shoot and kill American citizens?" "Would you be willing to shoot American women and children?" "Would you be willing to work alongside foreign troops should they need to be brought into this country"...and on and on and on. WHY???

Many of our troops have been asked to take an oath swearing their allegiance to the United Nations rather than the United Stated of America. One soldier who refused was arrested and has now been dishonorably discharged from the military.

There's a website called Oathkeepers.com. It's run by an active duty marine and contains all the information I just listed above as well as the questionare I was speaking of. It's there to read for anyone who cares to read it. I recommend visiting the website anyways - it's full of wonderful, unbiased information and it'll give you an idea of what's really going on in our military and our country.

I'm just asking folks to think for themselves. To get out of the media and propaganda trance that most of us have fallen victim too. Quit believing that the government has your best interests at heart and if you just listen to them and do what they say then everything will be hunky dory. Okay! I've written a book [Big Grin]
I'm done!

Lauren

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"The only way out is through"

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Blackstone
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The definition of pandemic by WHO standards is relatively low. It is designed to raise awareness and precautions before things get to a critical level. Thus, it is not based solely on mortality but rather on the amount of area the pathogen has spread to coupled with then number of infections H1N1 has spread all across the globe and had many infections (if not many deaths) to be significant for a specific flu strain. People were worried about its potential to mutate and become a serious threat more than its current form.

The pandemic classification helps hospitals to be aware of common sense procedures to help stop the spread - for instance, in one of mine there are big warnings that if you're having flu symptoms you don't sit with everyone else in the ER, they've made a special waiting area for those patients to cut down on possible exposure.

Due to the media and whatnot when most people think of a pandemic they think of a horror movie when some ebola-like illness sweeps through a population. It really doesn't work that way in real life, very often. In fact, the most virulent diseases out there (like aformentioned ebola) tend to shoot themselves in the foot so to speak, by killing carriers before they can leave a specific area.

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Truthfinder
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Vaccines - in their present form - pose more danger than prevention, IMHO. The Mercury issue is a just a small part of the problem. You are introducing fragments of DNA into your body that can be picked up by other organisms.....

Small Pox was on the decline before a vaccine for it ever emerged. That's also true of Polio and a number of other serious diseases. I read that most cases of Polio today are actually CAUSED by the vaccine.

The idea of vaccines is a good one..... and it came from the homeopaths. If you want a safe alternative to vaccination, start searching for information on `homeoprophylaxis'. You don't have to be unprotected just because you are avoiding traditional vaccination!

Funny, there's nobody panicking or much concerned about the recent H1N1 Flu over on the homeopathy forums. Homeopaths have been dealing with epidemics for over 100 years.... and they'll deal with this one, too. I'm prepared, and I've made sure that my friends are, too.

Didn't we just go through an attempt by Merck to force vaccination of young girls with the Gardasil vaccine? The same vaccine that has claimed hundreds of lives already? I can certainly envision a mandatory Swine Flu vaccination policy in the interest of `national security'......

Luvs, you honestly think any mainstream media is going to pick this up? The same media that has been hyping the `pandemic' business (thus promoting the use of all the nearly-expired stocks of Tamiflu, which has some really nasty flu-like side effects)?

Thanks for doing more digging on this. Good idea. But you may not get much.

Whatever anyone thinks of the article, the lawsuit, the claims - whether they are bogus or not - just remember a couple of things:

We already know that the UN, the WHO, and the pharmaceutical industry are all working together - just do a little research on that - and none of those entities is a friend of `the people' of this world. Just look at Codex..... that's a brain-child concocted by the UN, WHO, and some other global `regulatory' bodies. The ultimate goal is that all peoples of the world should become totally reliant upon orthodox medicine. That means that all natural means of treatment must be rigidly controlled or eliminated (made illegal).

When the WHO yells `pandemic!', it's a similar tactic to when the CDC calmly informs us that Lyme is rare and easily treated. One creates an unnecessary panic, and the other suppresses a justified panic. In both cases, the motivation has nothing to do with public welfare. [dizzy]

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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luvs2ride
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Agree with Lauren and Tracy.

Lauren, that is so scary that they are asking our soldiers if they would shoot American citizens, however, it is easy to believe. You don't have to dig far to know that every country has a martial plan in place should the economic crisis cause us to go mad in the streets.

It is my firm conviction that some organization is purposely bringing the countries to bankruptcy so they can put the one world government into place.

I don't trust either party either. We are begin governed by crooks and theives.

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Blackstone
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I don't see any credible evidence to suggest those diseases were on the decline before their vaccinations were common. My great uncle had polio as a kid and lost the use of his legs - it was a very very common occurrence and he is in his 70s now. After the vaccines came, infection dropped dramatically. Polio today is almost unheard of compared to even generation or two ago. We're talking thousands of percentages less. If you'd like more proof, look at third world countries where vaccinations aren't in use. Children are dying today of whooping cough. Its easy to see the difference in health.

I think some vaccine opponents have been misinterpreting epidemiological data. This same phenomena happened all around the world as vaccines were introduced. It was a similar "boom' of health as when antibiotics and sterile technique made it into medicine.

As far as "fragments of DNA" are concerned, you know this is how the immune system functions, correct? The system reacts to a pathogen, which of course contains its own DNA/RNA etc, and "learns" how to handle and kill it. In fact, some vaccines simply contained a weak, attenuated live virus that your system learned to kill - thus giving you antibodies against future infection. The very first recorded vaccine was the use of cow pox, a very mild relation of small pox, infection as a way to provide antibodies against small pox. Today we usually give "broken" chains of pathogen or "killed" pathogens instead. The fundamental basis of our immune system is reacting to outside genetic material and generating antibodies to it.

While I agree that Gardasil was pushed onto the market too early and that some people have a bad reaction to it (I've not heard about it claiming hundreds of lives. These things need to be reported. I've heard lots about a flu like illness and fainting in a minority of patients). It was in no way mandatory. Admittedly there was a lot of push for people to get vaccinated with it, but mandatory? Not so much.

Guys in "Blackwatch" masks and neat looking night vision goggles aren't showing up at people's houses and demanding they get vaccinated, so I think it is a little alarmist to go right to that.

This does bring up an important point. All the scientific evidence the world over points to a great number of lives saved via some sort of prophylactic immune modulation to keep people from getting certain infections. We really can't afford to lose that or we're going to end up like africa. If homeopathic vaccines are just as good as allopathic ones, that's great. However, there needs to be good science to prove this. I'm tired of all the excuses about being underfunded or whatnot or that other people don't want to hear about it. We have a perfectly good internet to dump data onto and there are universities that are open to the notion, especially in Europe. We need double blind studies, and lots of them, to prove it statistically significant. If it works, that's fabulous but until that sort of thing arises people are not going to see them as viable alternative for injecting a body with weak viral genetic material to fight it off and create antibodies.

If all "natural" treatments are being phased out then why are more doctors and even insurance companies covering or support chiropractic care, herbal medicine and acupuncture? Even my cruddy Blue Cross plan allows for 56 chiropractic visits a year and acupuncture is covered as a regular visit is it is done by a licensed physician. Compounding pharmacy drugs are covered as nonpreferred, but they're still covered. More people than ever are into a "healthy" lifestyle and alternative medicine, both the stuff that works and is proven and the stuff that is bunk.

Those entities may try to monetize it, but they certainly are going to kill that huge cash cow. Why make an expensive drug that is covered by insurance when Hippy Jane over there will buy a "natural" compound as a supplement out of pocket?

As I said before pandemic sounds scary to us, but really it is simply an issue of preparedness. There was no panic about Swine Flu. Nobody was told to panic about it, just to be aware of it, in my hospitals anyway, as I listed above.

There's a lot of misinformation out there and there is nobody above having an agenda...

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lymie_in_md
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I think I found a source which explains the polio epidemic in a much different light.

http://tinyurl.com/kk3zk5

Browse the entire book, it lands in the middle of a page.

To summarize, it describes polio more as a change in sanitation where the change itself caused the epidemic. It supports its information with a great many facts.

The polio virus the book asserts was with for thousands of years. It would pass from parent to child, the difference is the antibodies from the mother was passed to the child. And the child through constant exposure would rebuild the store of antibodies against the virus.

The e-book sees a change in sanitation killing the virus in the water system and antibodies no longer necessary to be produced was the cause of the problem. Now without the protection of antibodies one could develop the disease.

Interesting reading.

--------------------
Bob

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MaryMi
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http://www.westonaprice.org/children/vaccinations.html


The only exception to this decline in epidemic disease is smallpox, which, contrary to all we have been taught, actually increased with the

advent of mandatory vaccination and decreased only after an organized uprising by parents and doctors forced European governments to end their

mandatory vaccination programs.14 Even though the World Health Organization claims credit for the eradication of smallpox worldwide through

vaccination, the fact is that smallpox declined in countries around the world whether the population had been vaccinated or not. As Dr.

Glen Dittman said in 1986, "It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10 percent of the population were ever vaccinated."

Much more info on vaccination on the site above.

--------------------
 -
This is only my opinion and/or experience with Lyme Disease. I am not a medical professional.

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Truthfinder
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That DOES make some sense to me, Bob. Interesting.....

Re Gardasil: Yes, Merck was lobbying like crazy to get legislation passed that would make the vaccination mandatory....... There have been some 47 deaths in the USA alone..... I can't seem to find the article that tabulated world-wide deaths, to date..... it was over 200 as I recall. Some adverse events are severe: anaphylactic shock, foaming at the mouth, grand mal-type seizures, unconsciousness, coma, Bell's Palsy, paralysis, spontaneous abortions. I read one report that suggested that there may be an increase in certain birth defects to children of vaccinated mothers, but it is too soon to know for sure.

Some simple graphs showing the death rates from infectious diseases and vaccine intervention:
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html

More graphs, more diseases:
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

Smallpox, specifically:
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/#LeicsTable_21

quote:
`` In the graphs notice the large numbers of deaths caused by the smallpox vaccine itself. By 1901 in the UK, more people died from the smallpox vaccination than from smallpox itself.... On any scientific analysis of the history and data, crediting smallpox vaccine for the decline in smallpox appears misplaced.

`` When during 1880-1908 the City of Leicester in England stopped vaccination compared to the rest of the UK and elsewhere, its survival rates soared and smallpox death rates plummeted [see table below]. Leicester's approach also costs far less.''

I'm not a big fan of the `double-blind' study. Besides the cost and the politics involved, are the results reliable? Every time I turn on the TV, there's a new commercial for a new class action lawsuit regarding harm or death from another drug that went through all those `good science' trials...... We need a new system. Or maybe we need to return to the old system of `case reports' compiled by practitioners. I'm open to new ideas.

I agree, Luvs.

And did anyone ever see any mainstream media coverage about the HUGE success of the homeopathic Leptospirosis `vaccination trial' in Cuba last fall of about 1 million people? No? Gee, I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.......
(for anyone interested...)
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/77232?

IMHO, the real point here is threefold: 1) Everyone should be allowed to make their own personal decisions about vaccination of any kind, and 2) alternative methods of prevention like Traditional Chinese Medicine or homeopathy MUST remain legal and available to all, and 3) self-treatment should be encouraged - not discouraged - in a world where health care costs have become unaffordable for most.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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luvs2ride
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Tracy said:

IMHO, the real point here is threefold: 1) Everyone should be allowed to make their own personal decisions about vaccination of any kind, and 2) alternative methods of prevention like Traditional Chinese Medicine or homeopathy MUST remain legal and available to all, and 3) self-treatment should be encouraged - not discouraged - in a world where health care costs have become unaffordable for most.

END QUOTE

Common sense!

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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lymie_in_md
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Tracy -- I'd like to add a fourth, small health groups should be formed for those with similar chronic issues. And these groups should be part of a larger whole. This way no-one with a chronic illness is alone with their disease. Health care for certain chronic conditions can be better organized.

Right now the pattern has been patient - doctor. Imagine it to be patient - health group - doctors.

A huge difference is a health group supports the individual to take responsibility for their own disease. And helps as a resource of information and hopefully to make wiser descisions beyond current medical mismanagement. Doctor's become guides not dictators or better yet healers with greater compassion then they currently show.

--------------------
Bob

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nellypointis
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quote:
Originally posted by luvs2ride:
Tracy said:
1) Everyone should be allowed to make their own personal decisions about vaccination of any kind,

Yes, but only if, at the same time, people behave responsibly regarding infectious diseases that can be caught easily like the 'flu by just breathing near someone who's infected. And as long as this doesn't happen, what is society meant to do to protect its weakest members? (I know what conspiracy theorists will reply, please spare me the delirium).

quote:
2) alternative methods of prevention like Traditional Chinese Medicine or homeopathy MUST remain legal and available to all,
To all who are not really ill, maybe.

quote:
3) self-treatment should be encouraged - not discouraged - in a world where health care costs have become unaffordable for most.
GOOD medical treatment should be made available to ALL, self treatment is only what you want to practise if you DO NOT have access to intelligent, caring medical treatment.

quote:
Common sense!
Common sense!

Nelly
PS: Big Pharma is about as evil and cynical as they come but I think people should be a bit careful about posting here about conspiracies to kill half of humanity!!!! Viruses and bacteria DO emerge without any help from Big Pharma or from evil bankers who want to take over the world.

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Pinelady
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Our ignorance throughout history is proof of our

own mortality. During the yellow fever epidemics

it was thought that black persons because of

their color could not get yellow fever. So they

were employed to care for and bury the dead. Then

they were scrutinized for having received a

pittance for their services. This after those

that could flee did so. And left them mostly to

take care of the sick and dying.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/fever/timeline/index.html

Still today it comes with a warning and a

possible price to pay.

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/yellow_fever/en/index.html

Cuba may be on to something. Would it not be

ironic if the country who has been castrated for

all these years to come up with a major defeat.

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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luvs2ride
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Nellypointis,

First of all, I didn't originate the quote. I was quoting another poster.

Second, if I choose not to vaccinate and become sick, only others who have chosen not to vaccinate will be vunerable, so what's the harm? You who vaccinate will be safe, that is if you are right about vaccinating.

Leave us alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never wanted to live under an iron thumb. I want my country back.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Blackstone
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We're getting into a different discussion here, but it is always unethical and sometimes illegal (in the case of say, infecting someone with HIV knowingly) to make others ill because you don't want to take precautions.

I don't care if they're homeopathic, allopathic, from a root in the ground or from a lab, I care about effective. Nobody has the right to be a public health risk, and I don't think that's the message we should be spreading here. It would be one thing if these illnesses weren't communicable, but many of them are.

After all, if you're willing to say "Let me do what I want, its up to everyone else to protect themselves because I don't", isn't it hypocritical to expect Plum Island not do think the same way? I always hear theories about how Lyme escaped from there due to them not taking proper precautions

Would you feel the same way if a physician just let an Anthrax patient hang out in the ER instead of isolation saying "Well, you should have gotten vaccinated. All the medical staff did"?

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D Bergy
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The original subject was about Flu shots.

I repeat. There is no scientific evidence that they prevent Flu deaths. I have looked, and others also. The scientific evidence available indicates that Flu vaccination does not prevent Flu deaths.

To imply that you safer because your neighbor has received his Flu shot is not supported by science.

When science and the statistics do not support use of a vaccine, what possible benefit is there to the vaccination?

Find me the evidence, and I will believe otherwise. Do not assume it exists, because it does not.

Dan

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luvs2ride
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You Blackstone are assuming to be correct that all those who vaccinate are prudent and all those who do not vaccinate are negligent.

Well, you arrogant piece of work, I happen to think vaccinating is wreckless and furthermore, since I am on a medication that states in writing I am to not take any live vaccines, I am exempt.

So, what does that make me now? SOL?

I am assuming you are a physician or nurse based upon your comments. Tell me, do you personally verify the ingredients in your vaccines? Are you willing to guarantee no adverse reactions? Do you presume to be so knowledgeable and wise as to tell me what is safe and not safe in regards to my health and well-being?

You may very well be that arrogant based upon the way you just spoke down to me, but there is a long record of deaths, injuries, and other mishaps from medications and medical mistakes that show you to be wrong in your assumptions.

Again, I want the liberties, rights and freedom to make my own choices about how to preserve my health. Not some governmental body who may have many reasons for making decisions that have absolutely nothing to do with mine or my countrymen's health and well-being.

Luvs

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Blackstone
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D Bergy - Here's a simple one from the journal of pediatrics.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/123/6/1446


CONCLUSIONS. Children of parents who refuse pertussis immunizations are at high risk for pertussis infection relative to vaccinated children. Herd immunity does not seem to completely protect unvaccinated children from pertussis. These findings stress the need to further understand why parents refuse immunizations and to develop strategies for conveying the risks and benefits of immunizations to parents more effectively.

The important part is about herd immunity. From another website...

"Experts believe that up to 80% of nonimmunized family members will develop whooping cough if they live in the same house as someone who has the infection. For this reason, anyone who comes into close contact with someone who has pertussis should receive antibiotics to prevent spread of the disease. Young kids who have not received all five doses of the vaccine may require a booster dose if exposed to an infected family member."

Unvaccinated people exposed to a pathogen have a better chance of getting it. Now if that same baby was at a daycare, there was the risk of all the unvaccinated babies and workers there being infected as well.

Flu shots are admittedly, not proven to the degree of other infections, but I'm not talking about the flu here.


Luvs2ride -

Anyone who puts themselves at a greater chance of contracting a communicative pathogen voluntarily without any medical reason for doing so, is being negligent.

Like you, I do not believe that lyme patients and other sick people need the additional stress of vaccines because their body may have an undesired immune response one way or another. This is common medical literature.

However, I'm not talking about only lyme patients here - I'm talking about regular, healthy people refusing to get vaccinated and thus clouds of disease that we thought were eradicated and thus dont' vaccinate for anymore, like smallpox, are popping up again.

I don't remember the location offhand, but I was reading about how in california smallpox cases have increased several hundred percent in low vaccinated areas. I'll see if I can dig it up

As far as my position, nomatter what it may be, I don't discuss it in public as obviously problems arise in terms "friendly advice over the internet" versus "someone who represents themselves as a medical professional giving medical advice".

As far as any personal vaccines are concerned, yes, I do verify the ingredients. When it comes to people that I know I ensure they take the version with the least amount of preservatives, have a healthy immune system, and if they need to vaccinate (like going to another country), to do it in stages instead of all at once. Nobody guarantees no adverse reactions, but I do what I can to help them avoid to the best of scientific knowledge. You could eat the willow bark right off a tree and still have a bad reaction to that 'aspirin'

Your personal case is between you and your doctor. However, coming off like you believe you don't have a responsibility to not expose people to risk because of your decision is not correct. Saying "I can't vaccinate because my body can't handle it right now" is one thing. Saying "I don't have to because I just don't think it matters and its up to the rest of the herd to protect themselves AND me" is totally different. Taking care of your health is of course important, but there is a balance between doing what you want to, and when that behavior crosses into endangering others.

I'm not sure what you're getting at in the next paragraph. Because medical personnel have been wrong in the past its all invalid? I don't think that's accurate. Medicine has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

As I said, you have the liberty to take care of yourself as you please provided you don't endanger others. There is a point at which people cross this line, however. As an individual with lyme not getting vaccinated it probably isn't a problem, but what if everyone felt the way you did? Despite what a minority of literature says, many people would be ill with preventable diseases.

People who don't vaccinate require on the herd immunity to keep them safe, and if that herd immunity goes away there are going to be problems. The people who don't vaccinate are relying on the people who do to be numerous enough to generate that herd immunity. I find that a little selfish to say "I'm not going to vaccinate for X because I feel (and possibly rightly so) that vaccines are risky. However, I don't want to get X, so I'm going to need YOU to take that risk". That is something that few people think about.

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luvs2ride
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Blackstone said:

Saying "I don't have to because I just don't think it matters and its up to the rest of the herd to protect themselves AND me" is totally different.

End Quote

I never said that.

I don't trust vaccines. Too many are being made without regard to safety or effectiveness but purely for profit. They have become dangerous and I am afraid of them. I count myself lucky that I have a legitimate excuse to avoid them. I'll take my chances with the disease.

If the government and the medical field really care about the health of the masses, then outlaw fake food. It is being produced in laboratories for the distinct purpose of producing cheaper costs, great taste and preserving the inventory to stay fresh on the shelf longer. All in the name of profits and to the detriment of our health. Never mind what it is doing to our bodies.

Just by eating real food in its natural form (cooking is ok but not processing) would do much to improve our natural immunities and reduce illness and death, but no effort is made there. Too much money to lose. No, we will create a need in the consumers mind for vaccines that bring profit to the producers. If we lose a few hundred/thousand lives in the process, oh well, they would have died eventually anyway.

Please take the time to read this wonderful article about Phytotherapy (plant therapy). It is written by doctors.

http://www.womentowomen.com/menopause/phytotherapy.aspx

This is where healthcare should focus their efforts and lawmakers should be shutting down the poison factories that are making our daily bread.

If everyone followed Phytotherapy, many illnesses would fade away. So much illness is driven by nutritional deficits. If our bodies weren't so overburdened already with so much toxicity from food, drink, air, etc, then perhaps we could handle the toxic side effects of vaccines and medications. Hey, perhaps we would even have been able to successfully fend off Lyme before it took hold of us.

Why don't I ever hear the medical world preaching that and challenging the food industry?

I am hardly counting on the "herd" of people to keep me well from anything. Nor will I blindly follow the "herd" into the medical abyss.


Luvs

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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D Bergy
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I do not know to what degree other immunizations work or do not work.

The subject was the Flu vaccine, and you cannot automatically assume the risk/benefit ratio of the Pertussis vaccine is the equivalent of the Flu vaccine.

Whooping Cough is a more serious condition than the Flu. It is also caused by a bacteria, not a virus.

Viruses mutate way faster than bacteria and makes inoculation virtually impossible. By the time you have come up with a vaccine for the last strain, it has mutated enough to make the vaccine irrelevant.

Studies have proven that the death rate from the Flu has remained unchanged since the introduction of mass inoculation. So what you have is a vaccine with no benefit but all of the known side effects of a vaccine. This should be a no brainer and branded as quackery.

Science simply has no basis in giving Flu shots. It is no different than the blood letting or balancing of body humors from the past. It is a modern day practice with no basis in science or fact.

Dan

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nellypointis
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quote:
Originally posted by luvs2ride:
Second, if I choose not to vaccinate and become sick, only others who have chosen not to vaccinate will be vunerable, so what's the harm?

luvs2ride

No harm if you are careful not to contaminate others if you catch 'flu (or other communicable disease-as someone said it is a crime to knowingly pass on AIDS)

quote:
You who vaccinate will be safe, that is if you are right about vaccinating.[/QB]
I don't vaccinate, I'm very ill with Lyme and co and like you there are many things I do not trust with "modern" medicine (many things I don't trust with alternative medicine as well, probably more things in fact).

My beef is not with people like yourself or like myself for whom it would be dangerous to get a 'flu shot (first hand experience, once bitten twice shy!), my beef is:

with people who laugh at me for asking them not to visit when they've got a cold or the 'flu,

with people who go to work or send their kids to school with communicable illnesses,

who don't wear masks when they should on public transport etc.

They're irresponsible and extremely dangerous to many weaker people (not just Lymies).

quote:
Leave us alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QB]
Are you talkin' to me?

quote:
I never wanted to live under an iron thumb.[/QB]
Neither did I, why are you saying this?

quote:
I want my country back. [/QB]
Is anybody trying to steal it from you?

Have "they" stolen it already?

As far as I am concerned, you may have it all to yourselves, no probs!

Might we swap presidents, though? Yours is a lot cuter than ours :-)

Nelly (Paris-France)

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emla999/Lyme
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The petition, "A UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF RESISTANCE TO MANDATORY VACCINATIONS."


http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/a-universal-declaration-of-resistance-to-mandatory-vaccinations


So far, over 8,000 people have signed that petition.

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luvs2ride
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Peace Nelly,

I agree with your last post on all points. Except that Barrack is cute. I personally think he looks like a vampire with big ears and black lips.

The iron thumb will be government mandating vaccines. It won't be for the good of society, that I am absolutely sure of.

Yes, people should be more careful and stay home when sick. I work with the public and live with a small voice of fear that I try to block out. Some people come into my office incredibly sick.

Leave me alone was meant for anyone forcing their will on me.

Ha-Ha! I don't blame you for rejecting any offers to give America to you. We are not in a good place at the moment and we can thank our government (both parties) for that.

Quarantine me if you must. I would not mind being quarantined but I do mind being forced to take a drug I truly believe is unsafe.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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lymielauren28
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Luvs, Barack Obama IS a vampire. He's sucking this country dry....so Nelly, yes you may have him, but beware those fangs!

Emla, thanks for the link!

Lauren

--------------------
"The only way out is through"

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nellypointis
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quote:
Originally posted by luvs2ride:
Peace Nelly,

OK, Peace from my side of the Atlantic.

quote:
Quarantine me if you must. I would not mind being quarantined but I do mind being forced to take a drug I truly believe is unsafe. [/qb]
I kind of quarantine myself when the (normal) 'flu season is on, and my husband has to sleep in the guest room for a few days when he's been to a seminar or on a plane.

Just when I thought it was safe to come out again...bang! now we've got this H1N1 'flu that doesn't seem to care whether it's 'flu season or not, blast!

Not sure what to think about vaccinations on a general basis, a lot of variables that make me want to be cautious.

quote:
I agree with your last post on all points. Except that Barrack is cute. I personally think he looks like a vampire with big ears and black lips.[/QB]
Barrack IS cute,big ears and all! Not my opinion, a FACT [Smile]

Nelly

[ 07-01-2009, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: nellypointis ]

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ChuckG
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Most of you don't remember, as I do, the last polio epidemic to sweep the US. Me, I had both polio vaccines in the fifties. Also Small Pox and whatever else the military deemed essential. Get a flu shot most years. May have immunity from 1957 H1N1 so not worried about swine flu. Yet!

Wikipedia

quote:
On Saturday, June 17, 1916 an official announcement of the existence of an epidemic polio infection was made in Brooklyn, New York. That year, there would be over 27,000 cases and more than 6,000 deaths due to polio in the United States, with over 2,000 deaths in New York City alone.[12] The names and addresses of individuals with confirmed polio cases were published daily in the press, their houses were identified with placards, and their families were quarantined.[13] The 1916 epidemic caused widespread panic and thousands fled the city to nearby mountain resorts; movie theaters were closed, meetings were canceled, public gatherings were almost nonexistent, and children were warned not to drink from water fountains, and told to avoid amusement parks, swimming pools, and beaches.[12] From 1916 onward, a polio epidemic appeared each summer in at least one part of the country, with the most serious occurring in the 1940s and 1950s.[1]

...In children, paralysis due to polio occurs in 1/1000 cases, while in adults, paralysis occurs in 1/75 cases.[16] By 1950, the peak age incidence of paralytic poliomyelitis in the United States had shifted from infants to children aged 5 to 9 years; about one-third of the cases were reported in persons over 15 years of age.[17] Accordingly, the rate of paralysis and death due to polio infection also increased during this time.[1] In the United States, the 1952 polio epidemic would be the worst outbreak in the nation's history. Of the nearly 58,000 cases reported that year 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis.[18]

And you might read a book or three (as I have) on the 1918 flu pandemic.
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luvs2ride
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I don't believe anyone here is suggesting throwing caution to the wind. I'm certainly not suggesting that.

What I am saying as clearly as I know how is that I do not trust these vaccines or the motivation behind them.

There is no doubt that vaccines in the past have done great good. No doubt at all and once upon a time, I would have vaccinated quickly.

But along the way, medicine became big business and we are not always told the truth nor are these nameless, faceless entities that profit from us always benevolent in their intentions.

NOW I am more scared of the vaccine than I am of the disease. And trust me, no one sitting on this board is lackidasical about the dangers of disease.

I have truly come to the absolute certainty that it is better to be prepared to die than it is to try to stay alive.

We live in dangerous times and not all of our enemies openly declare jihad on us.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Truthfinder
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Seems like a lot of people didn't bother to look at any of the graphs......

quote:
Polio Vaccine Victim Wins Lawsuit Against Big Pharma
Tuesday, June 16, 2009 by: David Gutierrez, staff writer

(NaturalNews) A New York jury has concluded that pharmaceutical company Lederle Laboratories was responsible for the injury to a man who contracted polio from a vaccine 30 years ago, and ordered it to pay him $22.5 million.

Dominick Tenuto became infected with polio in 1979, shortly after his daughter received a vaccine made by Lederle from a live polio virus. Tenuto alleged that he had been exposed to the live virus while changing his daughter's diaper.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a total of 144 people in the United States became infected with polio from live vaccines between 1980 and 1998. While the majority of these were the vaccine recipients themselves, the number includes 51 who contracted the disease upon contact with a vaccinated individual.

Tenuto became paralyzed from the disease and ended up spending months in intensive care, breathing through a hospital ventilator. Even after two years of rehabilitative therapy, he remained partially paralyzed and to this day cannot get around without a wheelchair.........

So, exactly who is endangering whom when it comes to `exposure'?

Sorry, but vaccines have historically been given before their safety and stability have been established. No one should be forced to receive any vaccine from an industry with this kind of tainted history.

As Luvs and others have said: Do what you want and believe what you want, but don't force me to do what YOU believe is right.

And BTW - Right on, Luvs. I want my country back, too! This `nanny state' ideology isn't what the USA was founded on.

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Blackstone
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One of the polio vaccination versions is a live attenuated virus. 144 people, over nearly 20 years, where thousands and thousands are spared, is well within parameters. Anytime you give a live virus, you run the risk of an absolute minority not being able to fight it off because of an immune abnormality. I heard the numbers came down to something like 1 in 850,000. Admittedly it is horrible if you're that 1, but no therapy of any kind is perfect.

This is making mountains out of molehills. You can't call it a failure or unreliable if a tiny percentage has a bad reaction. More people than that die during surgery due to a bad reaction to anesthesia, but we don't demonize surgical practices.

This is the kind of data reporting that seriously hurts the credibility of the "natural", "alternative medicine" movements. This seems to be a harmful, continuous practice - complaining about a minority of bad reactions and that a therapy is evil if it isn't both 100% safe and effective (which NOTHING is), and then offering unproven alternatives which claim to be both of the above.

[ 07-02-2009, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Blackstone ]

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luvs2ride
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Blackstone,

My position remains unchanged. I do not want the government mandating my medical care.

If we can't have sensorship, if we can't discuss "certain" religions, if we must be politically correct and considerate in other aspects of our lives, then how on earth is it ok to force other issues like medical treatment down our throat?

Seems to me civil liberties only work to one side's advantage.

And don't tell me about the good of the masses. As I said originally, all who believe the vaccines are effective and safe should get them and then they will be unaffected by those of us who feel otherwise.

I'm only saying no vaccine for me. For all others I say do what you think best. What I don't want is someone forcing me to do what I do not think is best.

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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emla999/Lyme
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According to a recent study, children who get the flu vaccine are three times more likely to be hospitalized for the flu!!


http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/103683


Also, according to another recent study, getting a flu shot almost doubles your chances of developing cancer.


http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/107535


.

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Hoosiers51
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Blackstone,

Even if the risk is "within parameters," if someone knows that something that will be administered to them may be lethal (or even just harmful), shouldn't they have the RIGHT to refuse it?

If it had never hurt anyone, maybe that argument has clout, but for me it is more an issue of PERSONAL (not group) rights.

It shouldn't be okay for someone to die from a vaccine that they tried to refuse, but was forced upon them by law. Even if it is very rare.

I understand that you are keeping in mind the rights of others, but you also can't trample on personal liberties in the process.

Someone should NOT be asked to ingest something potentially lethal, with the justification of, "but look at how many people you could be saving."

ALL states should allow opting out of vaccination for philosophical reasons. Some people may not be willing to make that sacrifice for others, even though the odds of death or injury may be low.

In your surgery example, the person is going into surgery to save his/her OWN life, and as far as I know, people have the right to refuse surgery, correct?

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luvs2ride
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emla999/lyme

Great articles. Thank you for that research.

I was reading an article yesterday about osteoarthritis and research is finding a link to hormone imbalance, enzyme depletion among other things that get out of balance in the body.

I commented to my husband, "How on earth has my mother managed to keep all her hormones, enzymes and other stuff in balance for 83 yrs. She has no illness whatsoever." He commented that neither of his parents had arthritis he and all his siblings do. His mother died at 98 and I remember looking at her hands and noting not a single deformed joint.

Two things we could think of that was different for them than for us.

1-Food. They had pesticides but they did not have fake food. TV dinners did not come into existence until the 60's and I remember my mother turning her nose up at anything boxed or frozen. She made all our meals from scratch.

2-Vaccines! Their generation was not vaccinated, but ours was. Could we be suffering the consequences of those vaccinations?

3-Both our moms believed in eating healthy balanced meals.

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Blackstone
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I do not dispute that personal liberties are important, but there is the old saying that "your personal freedoms stop when mine start" or something to that effect.

The example I was making before hand about surgery was nothing about freedoms, but rather the statistics posted by naturalnews.

The honest problem here is about herd immunity. The laws we have at current allow for objectors, and that is fine. However, they are generally predicated on the idea that for most participants in society, people will NOT object. As I said before, should enough people stop carrying the burden of immunity, herd immunity vanishes and that means that all of the non-immune individuals are now vulnerable.

How do we manage this herd immunity? What if your personal right to remain unprotected and uninfected impacts my personal right to be unprotected and uninfected? Should enough people reject the notion of protection, that's exactly what's going to happen. Of course this is not to say anything for the people who DO get protected by the protection isn't perfect. Sure, in a location where X illness is rare a 90% immunity is great, but if the chance of exposure rises, you're "rolling the dice" more often so to speak.

Lets say that a person joins a fictitious religion that both requires to proselytize face to face and to refuse medical treatment? Now what happens if this individual gets TB? Should this tuberculous missionary have the right to stand at the subway stop all day long, exposing people to a threat because of his personal religious beliefs?

As I said above, I have no problem with other options besides traditional vaccination if they are effective, up to and including quarantine. Would that be a sufficient compromise - forcefully quarantining those who were not immune? Some would call that an infringement of personal rights as well.

I don't believe vaccines are perfect or that every single person needs them regardless of circumstances, but what I do object to is the cavalier attitude displayed by some that "Well this is what I'm going to do, you had better protect yourself if you don't like it".

As I mentioned previously, the only reason that non-immune people have the luxury to not partake in some method of vaccination or prophylaxis and generally not be worried about infection, is because others have shouldered that risk and that burden to their body. I think we should respect the notion that the only reason this particular personal liberty is even feasible is because of a group sacrifice.

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nellypointis
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Blackstone,

Total agreement!

Vaccines are not the universal panacea and I feel they should be worked on to a much greater degree to ensure better safety (like for eg the preservatives they use) for the people that are taking the vaccine.

Some vaccines are probably too unsafe for an unacceptably high % of the population (Hep B maybe?)

I also feel that individuals should be better screened as to whether they are to be given vaccinations or not in order to really minimise the risks of adverse affects yet keep herd immunity high, so that in fact it remains possible for the very people who are not good candidates for vaccines to stay safe because others (the ones who are less likely to experience adverse reactions) have been vaccinated.

Nelly

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lymielauren28
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Grandmother - yes I read it.

Blackstone - herd immunity goes right along with the herd mentality. Let me remind you that we are not cattle...

Lauren

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luvs2ride
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Grandmother,

I did read it, but I have a bit of a problem with some of it.

For instance, mass killing us through vaccines? Wouldn't that become pretty obvious pretty quickly and the vaccinations would have to cease?

Now creating a ficticious pandemic to profit from everyone getting vaccinated? Yup. I can sure believe that one.

Putting vaccines on the market without adequately researching and testing them ahead of time? Oh yeah. Happens all the time.

Requiring vaccines for stupid things like Hep B for little kids? Yup. Already happening.

I have not heard back from Fox, CNN, Bill Moyer or Glenn Beck regarding the lawsuit filed by Jane Burgermeister.

I still can't believe the muzzle on the media is so great that no one is leaking this news. Especially if Obama is named.

Blackstone, I meant I would be quarrantined if I got the flu, not just because I refused the stupid, unproven, ineffective, possibly quite dangerous shot.

Have YOU read the articles posted by emla999?

Luvs

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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luvs2ride
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grandmother (me too :-))

Scroll back up the page and look for a post by emla999 where she/he has given us two links.

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D Bergy
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So what are the compelling reasons to get a Flu shot? I still have not seen any evidence presented that they protect an individual from the Flu. The evidence that I have seen, says they do not.

What other reason exists for doing this? Why are millions getting these every year?

Dan

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Blackstone
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I should make this clear as it seems to keep coming up: I do not believe that flu shots are necessary for most, not the least of which are people with compromised or overworked immune systems. There are too many strains of flu, its hard to predict which ones are going to be prevalent every year. For some individuals, like the vulnerable due to age or profession, it is probably a good idea. However for others, it is probably an unnecessary load on the system.

That said I have to break in here..

Lauren - Here is a simple explanation from the wiki about herd immunity - encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

"Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a type of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a portion of the population (or herd) provides protection to unprotected individuals.[1] Herd immunity theory proposes that, in diseases passed from person-to-person, it is more difficult to maintain a chain of infection when large numbers of a population are immune. The more immune individuals present in a population, the lower the likelihood that a susceptible person will come into contact with an infected individual.[2]"

This is a theory that has been evident for quite some time and has been shown viable in epidemologic studies. Postulating that it has anything to do with "herd mentality" is erroneous. One is a verified scientific phenomena and the other is a sociological construct that affects how people are influenced to make decisions.

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lymielauren28
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Blackstone, thank you for clarifying. That makes perfect sense...I just misunderstood your statement. On all the other issues we'll just have to agree to disagree [Wink]

Lauren

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emla999/Lyme
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This thread made me think of Jock Doubleday's vaccine challenge.


http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm


Jock Doubleday will give $205,000 to the first U.S. licensed medical doctor or pharmaceutical company CEO that will publicly drink a mixture of standard vaccine additive ingredients.

This challenge has been going on for over 8 years now. And to my knowledge, no medical doctor or pharmaceutical company CEO has accepted Mr. Doubleday's vaccine challenge.

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Aniek
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Just because a lawsuit is filed does not mean the claims made in the lawsuit have any merit whatsoever.

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Truthfinder
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I need to clear up one thing.....

Blackstone, you made one comment awhile back that was misleading:

**'' This seems to be a harmful, continuous practice - complaining about a minority of bad reactions and that a therapy is evil if it isn't both 100% safe and effective (which NOTHING is), and then offering unproven alternatives which claim to be both of the above .''**

I don't know where you saw that homeoprophylaxis is 100% effective - it isn't. Nobody here said it was. It can't be. There are people (and animals) who do not readily develop and retain antibodies to various diseases. This is not well understood. The same principle is true of homeopathic prevention - the information from the remedy just isn't retained well by some people.

The good news, though, is that even if a disease is acquired after `homeopathic vaccination', the illness is generally a mild version. Far fewer deaths occur as a result.

As to safety, homeopathics have a 200-year track record of safety. That doesn't mean negative reactions don't happen - they can and do. But you won't die from it, and you won't suffer irreparable harm from it. I consider that to be `safe' in comparison to traditional vaccinations.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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Blackstone
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Oh I agree that not everything is 100% - I've mentioned that before in respect to allopathic treatments too.

I wasn't specifically speaking about homeopathic vaccines/prophylaxis, but rather the "alternative medicine" community as a whole.

On the concept of homeopathy, I think it just needs a chance to prove itself. Take a conventional vaccine with marked effectiveness that provides a certain level of antibody response generally indicative of immunity , and check to see if the homeopathic version comes to the same end. If it does, it shows homeopathic vaccines are equally as effective. Effectiveness is what I care about in addition to safety, and that's something I've not seen demonstrated. The Cuba experiment is a good start, but its a long way from comprehensive.

What I was speaking about earlier was the tone of the set article, and many, many "alternative medicine" discussion groups, web sites, and "pushers". They vilify a certain thing or treatment, which is often used "conventionally" by many patients without issue.

Saying that a few hundred people got polio from a live attenuated virus, compared to hundreds of thousands that didn't in an effect to make the vaccine look bad, is pure and simple fear mongering. I see this time and time again.

"Because 1% of people have a bad reaction to X, X is not only bad, but WE SELL Y which is perfect, natural, costs 6 times as much as X and of course can't be covered by your insurance, but if you really value your health you're going to buy it" Of course, there are no controlled studies from independent sources about Y. Sometimes its even worse, when I find that "Life Health Institute" the supposed lab that certified this thing as so great, is OWNED by the same people who sell the product? Isn't that a conflict of interest?

At least homeopathy has protocols, standards, and organization, and I think there just needs to be more research done to show the benefits and limitations of the treatment - places where it is as good or better than allopathic treatment, and places where it lacks .

Thousands of sites and products don't have anything near that amount of legitimacy, and that was what I referred to.

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luvs2ride
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Vaccine May Be More Dangerous Than Swine Flu

http://tinyurl.com/nskcht


Bios on Dr. Russell Blaylock

http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Truthfinder
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Regarding the lawsuit that was filed..... some of the claims seemed pretty far-fetched. And yet......

Then, I saw this and it gave a little credibility to some of the rumors about `FEMA camps'......

quote:
Political opposition is not a hate crime
washington examiner
July 10, 2009

What's wrong with this picture? The federal government spends billions on homeland security, but apparently can't stop foreigners from illegally crossing the border or overstaying their visas. The Obama administration wants to bring violent terrorists captured overseas to the mainland and close the military detention center at Guantanamo Bay.

Yet in the latest bizarre twist, legislation quietly making its way through Congress would give the White House power to categorize political opponents as hate groups and even send Americans to detention centers on abandoned military bases.

Rep. Alcee Hastings - the impeached Florida judge Nancy Pelosi tried to install as chairman of the House Intelligence Committee until her own party members rebelled - introduced an amendment to the defense authorization bill that gives Attorney General Eric Holder sole discretion to label groups that oppose government policy on guns, abortion, immigration, states' rights, or a host of other issues.

In a June 25 speech on the House floor, Rep. Trent Franks, R-AZ, blasted the idea: "This sounds an alarm for many of us because of the recent shocking and offensive report released by the Department of Homeland Security which labeled, arguably, a majority of Americans as 'extremists.'"

Another Hastings bill (HR 645) authorizes $360 million in 2009 and 2010 to set up "not fewer than six national emergency centers on military installations" capable of housing "a large number of individuals affected by an emergency or major disaster." But Section 2 (b) 4 allows the Secretary of Homeland Security to use the camps "to meet other appropriate needs" - none of which are specified. This is the kind of blank check that Congress should never, ever sign.

It's not paranoid to be extremely wary of legislation that would give two unelected government officials power to legally declare someone a "domestic terrorist" and send them to a government-run camp.

After all, the federal government has done exactly this sort of thing before. During World War II, more than 120,000 law-abiding Japanese Americans were rounded up by the government and confined for four years in ten internment camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards. Joy Kogawa chronicled the trauma her family experienced firsthand under FDR's executive order: "Families were made to move in two hours. Abandoned everything, leaving pets and possessions at gun point..."

It was wrong then, and it would be doubly wrong now should members of Congress somehow fail to learn from past mistakes.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Political-opposition-is-not-a-hate-crime-7949121-50392297.html



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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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pryorka
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Blackstone I'm not sure if you work in a science related field or not, but for someone that does when they read that study you posted they can realize it is what some call publication fraud.

The study in no way proves vaccines prevented the infection or that those that didn't get the vaccine were at a higher risk. Data was collected, only parts of the data were shared, and based on some what is shared it seems as though the results could have proved exactly the opposite (the kids that got vaccines actually got the infection more often). Because all they mention is 11% of all infection cases were from those that refused vaccination... there's another 89% they don't mention, and why they don't mention it?? Probably because more than 11% of that was attributed to those that were vaccinated which would prove the opposite of what the vaccine manufacturer wanted.

What the researcher then does is put assumptions and opinions in the conclusion rather than facts based on the data collected (which was selectively published or discarded). Corporations love this because it's not TECHNICALLY research fraud, and then they can simply reference the conclusion of "science based" research when they want to sell something.

This type of research fraud is everywhere in our health care system, it's the same thing IDSA does to hide the truth.

The real problem with vaccines is the general populations ignorance that our doctors don't actually vaccinate themselves or their families. The CDC released memos within the organization advising that everyone working there not vaccinate their kids. There have been numerous studies posted on other threads showing proving the ineffectiveness of vaccines. These studies had no motive for financial gain and were actually carried out according to scientific methods.

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Blackstone
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Yes, and what it comes down to is that EVERYONE accuses the other guy of doing this. The "conventional" side says the "natural/alternative" side falsifies evidence in the exact same way - through publication fraud, shifty "research", cherry picking supporting evidence, and labs and studies paid to get a single result.

For every supposedly scientific sounding article on an anti-vaccine site, there's one refuting it elsewhere. Everyone tries to poke holes in the other guy's research. It is bloody annoying for all those trying to find out the truth. Unfortunately, between hubris, money, and minds that are set in their ways, it becomes difficult.

I could spend the next few hours sourcing lots of positive vaccine articles just via googling, pubmed etc... would anyone here who espoused a contrary opinion really agree with them? I'm doubting it. Some would say "the sample is too small, they only tested on animals, there could have been other factors in play, they were conducted by a bad entity etc". If people believe something strong enough, nomatter the evidence to the contrary they'll always find a problem with it.

Sure, there are plenty of studies that seem to say vaccines don't work, but some (as I linked above the fearmongering natural news report, or many others) just aren't viable. This is just like how many vaccine production companies artificially represent their product's effectiveness.

I'm not saying that every vaccine is a wonderful panacea, or that they couldn't be improved. I'd love to see vaccines without artificial preservatives of any kind. I'm not saying there aren't corrupt individuals practicing corrupt science to get results to fill an agenda, but they are on BOTH sides. To put it succinctly, I doubt ALL entities involved.

[ 07-11-2009, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Blackstone ]

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pryorka
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I'm not sure how the crooks try to refute the credible research, it seems they usually pretend it doesn't exist. But the scientific method is simply the scientific method, it's straightfoward and simple enough and a scientist can read different studies and clearly tell what is legit and what isn't.

When the crooks try to "poke holes" in credible research they really don't poke any holes because the research is solid, they simply claim it doesn't exist or it was fraudulent, but can't point out why. They just make a broad BS statement since they know no one will actually look at the research anyway. However for example if you look at the research the connecticut attorney general found from IDSA you can see line by line the examples of research fraud and data manipulation, same thing as with these vaccine studies.

If you read the steps to the scientific method you'll see what I mean. Having experience performing research helps even more. If you're young and in college take a science course with serious labwork and this will become second nature to you in no time. Then when you go back and read different studies like this you'll just shake your head in amazement.

But of course the other side has a motive, it's the health of their patients and to uphold their oath. You can clearly follow the numbers and realize they have no financial motive or an intention to hurt anyone whereas the corrupt side clearly does. And if lawyers end up investigating they usually find out bribes were paid.

Try to learn more about all this if you can so you can have an understanding more so than an opinion. Because it's clear you notice certain things aren't right.

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emla999/Lyme
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Here's a rather interesting website about vaccines.


http://www.medicalvoices.org/

http://www.medicalvoices.org/en/events.html


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pryorka
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Good site, thanks for showing that. I try to give people information and they just think i'm nuts. So that site helps out by laying out so much proof.
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Truthfinder
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Yes, thanks Emla999 - looks like the site is brand new.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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