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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Who is keeping Bart away without abx??

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Author Topic: Who is keeping Bart away without abx??
kellyb2411
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Hi,

I am just wondering if anyone is being successful in keeping bart away without abx.

I seem to need to be on a combo of rifampin and biaxin or else mine comes back within a few weeks.

I went off rifampin 3 months ago while on tinidazole and biaxin and it came back in 2 weeks fiercely.

I went back on everything for about 6 or so weeks and recently started salt/c. I have been on it for 7 weeks and am up to 11g/day. I haven't herxed that hard.

I stopped taking my biaxin about 3 weeks ago (still on rifampin because I'd been too scared to stop that again) and I am feeling the Bart come back. I'm sure i'm not mistaking it for a herx.

Is there anyway to keep this beast at bay without taking abx. I am worried I'll have to be on these two antibiotics (rifampin and biaxin) forever. It just won't let up.

anyone tried Rizols?

Help appreciated

Kelly

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Myco
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How long have you been taking the Rifampin and Biaxin combo?
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kellyb2411
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Since September. I'm great on both, but as soon as I go off one I go backwards. Originally I just thought it was the rifampin that I needed as I relapsed off that first, but recently stayed on rifampin and stopped biaxin and seem to be slipping down the same path.

I could be mistaking it for a herx, but I'm not convinced and have a really bad feeling.

I am happy to take something forever, just want to get off the antibiotics if possible.

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stacyb
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Kelly,

I had the same problem too.
Took the Rif. and Zith for 8 months
and then went off the Rif. and slid backwards
big time in 3 weeks. Went back on the Rifampin
now for 6 months and have not went off yet.
I am hoping that I do not slip back again this time.

My LLMD wants me to take the HH caps from
Zhang and the limited Cowden too for the Bart
before coming odd the Rifampin again.

Posts: 476 | From Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kellyb2411
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Thanks Stacy.

Someone just PM'd me and reminded me about taking rifampin alone and bugs building up resistance. I forgot about that one.

I am actually feeling better today so maybe just a herx in my eyes, who knows!

Is anybody able to tell me where to get the correct HH Capsules? A link of where to buy would be good.

Thanks

Kelly

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

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glm1111
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Kelly,

I noticed you are doing salt/c. How long have you been doing it and at what dose? Also, have you considered adding antiparasitic herbs to your regime?

Gael

--------------------
PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW
RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS*

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kellyb2411
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I've been doing it for about 6-7 weeks. I'm up to 12 grams and going well. I'm taking japanese knotweed and thinking about adding in some Rizols.

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Myco
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How about moving to Cipro? Lots of patients do the Rifampin/Zithromax or Biaxin protocol and then finish off with a few months of Cipro.
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kellyb2411
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concerned about tendon issues so its a last resort for me.

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

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Stacyb
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Kelly,

The HH Caps are from Zhang and I think a google
search would find his products. You can also
order the herb and make your own caps as some
on the board say and it's way cheeper that way.
Others here would say that the potency is not the same and that you may need to take more of the
"home-made" ones. You can do a search here too
and it should pull up some good info. I have
read some good success on it for Bart on high
doses.

If you cannot find the info let me know.

Stacy

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kellyb2411
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Great thanks.

I found some here:

http://www.hepapro.com/hh.htm

Are these OK?

I haven't been able to find Zhang's own brand (if he has one).

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

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seibertneurolyme
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Kelly,

The Hepapro brand is Dr Zhang's brand/company.

He also has a new product -- hh-2 which is supposed to be twice as potent, but not twice as expensive. Hubby is waiting on an order of the new product. (38.00 instead of 31.50 per bottle)

Bea Seibert

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kellyb2411
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Great thanks for the info. What dose is your husband on of the normal HH? What dose did he start on?

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kellyb2411
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By the way - I couldn't see the HH-2 capsules on the hepparo website. Where did your husband order them?

Thanks

Kelly

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
radfaraf
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You can find them when you go to the order section, but they are not on the main product list. Here is the direct link to the page that has them: http://www.hepahealth.com/ctr/web/index.jsp?action=showproducts&categoryid=5

I ordered them on Monday and they have already shipped. So far no results with any of this Zhang stuff (HH, Circulation P and Allicin), but I am continuing to try. Been about a month so far with this.

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kellyb2411
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Great thanks.

Have you tried Rizol's?

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

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radfaraf
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Nope, maybe one day if this other stuff including antibiotics continues to not work or give me trouble.
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kellyb2411
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Good luck, hope it does work fo you :-)

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

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Stacyb
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Kelly and Radfaraf,

THIS IS INFO FROM ALV here below.
ALV I hope you do not mind as
folks wanted the info.


have used lately 1stchineseherbs.com hoytaania...( spelling ) same ingredient that is in the HH.

YES HH are very expensive and I have ued ZHANGS but this month bart came back after it was in remmision since JUNE.

I was back for 3 weeks on KETEK and 20 HH capsules created with the POWDER

The potency is like 80% of the HH Zhang...based on my testing and NOW..my Bart is almost gone again only 20% in the knees....BUT I will continue 2 more weeks on 20 HH based on my own test...symptoms and spiders veins are gone almost in my entire body ..

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kellyb2411
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Thanks Stacy

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
radfaraf
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Thanks, I will try making my own capsules when my Zhang HH runs out.

I have about 50% of a normal HH bottle left and then three HH-2 bottles coming soon (they are in the post office already just have to sign for them). Will start increasing my dosage soon to see what happens.

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Stacyb
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Kelly and Radfaraf,

I am glad the info helped!!!

Radfaraf, do you take less of the HH-2 strength
caps since they are stronger?

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radfaraf
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I went from 1 three times a day of HH to 2 three times a day of HH yesterday.

Still have a bit of regular HH left. When I go on HH-2 I might just take 1 three times a day since it will be the same amount. Though depending on results I might double it again. So it would be like 12 a day of if I only take 6 a day of HH-2.

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radfaraf
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Got my HH2 bottles and sent this to them because this is fishy:

My HH bottles say 250mg Hohuttuynia cordata, while the HH2 ones I just received say 300mg. Is this a mislabeling? 300mg is 20% more than 250mg and not double.

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radfaraf
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The response I got when asking about this:

The doubled strength is the active ingredient "new sodium houttuyfonate" has been doubled in each capsule. In HH2 this ingredient is 180 mg per capsule and in HH it is 90 mg per capsule.
The total filling increased from 250 mg to 300 mg is not doubled.

Also received this attachment with this:

HH 2* Capsule

(This article is for information and educational use only)

(*HH 2 Capsule is a double strength version of HH Capsule, which contains 180 mg of decanoyl acetaldehyde per capsule. To produce this double strength version was responding to certain portion of people's request, which need to increase the dose of HH Capsule in their health care. For those already responded to HH Capsule well it is not necessary to switch to HH 2 Capsule.)

Constituent Herb:

Houttuyniae herba (HH) is the leaf of Houttuynia cordata Thunb. (Saururaceae). (The Great Dictionary of Chinese Materia Medica 1988)

Pharmacology:

The chief anti-bacterial compound of H. cordata is decanoyl acetaldehyde. (Liu YL et al., 1978, Kosuge T.1975, Isogai Y.,1953) Its English name is new sodium houttuyfonate.

HH has been effectively used to prevent and treat leptospirosis, an infectious disease caused by spirochetes. (Leptospirosis Research Unit, 1972)

HH has shown significant activity against many bacteria and fungi. In vitro tests showed that it could markedly inhibit gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. The most sensitive organisms were Staphylococcus aureus and its penicillin-resistant strains, Diplococcus pneumoniae, Alpha streptococcus, Hemophilus influenzae. Neisseria catarrhalis, and Salmonella typhi. Escherichia coli, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, and Shigella dysenteriae showed marginal sensitivity. (Leptospirosis Research Unit, 1971, 1972,, Yang HC et al., 1953, Jiangxi Medical Information 1972)

HH also inhibits Candida albicans, Cryptococcus neoformans, Sporotruichum, Aspergillus, Chromomycosis, Epidermophyton rubrum, Tinea imbricata, Microsporum gypseum, Microsporum ferrugineum, and sharkskin fungus. HH has shown inhibitory action against Diplococcus pneumoniae, Salmonella typhi, Staphylococcus aureus, Escherichia coli and Sporotrichum in vitro. It has also strong inhibitory action against Mycobacterium tuberculosis both in vitro and in vivo. HH injection to tuberculin mice at 1mg/mouse prolonged survival by 62 days; the therapeutic effect was enhanced when the agent was mixed with the animal feed. (Kosuge T et al., 1952,1956, Materia Medica Section, 1978)

HH is also immune-enhancing, edema-alleviating, and anti-inflammatory, all of which are of great importance in the treatment of infectious diseases. (Bronchitis Unit, 1973, Medical Laboratory, 1975)

Pharmacokinetic studies found that its half-life is 3.5 hours in rat gastrointestinal tract. It was quickly distributed, first in the lungs, next in the heart, liver, and kidneys, and minimally in the serum. (Materia Medica Unit, 1976)

HH has very low toxicity. The LD50 in mice was 1.6 0.81 g/kg. Intravenous infusion of 38 or 47 mg/kg to dogs did not cause any abnormalities in the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, spleen, stomach, or intestines.( Jiangxi College of TCM, 1977)


Clinical Applications:

Leptospirosis (Liang YQ, 1978, TCM Dept. 1975) and Lyme disease
Respiratory tract infections (Pediatrics Dept, 1975, Zhong CY, 1979)
Chronic cervicitis (Qui CQ et al., 1979)
Otorhinolaryngological infections (Ji HK et al., 1979)
Bartonella infection (Schaller, 2008)


Packaging and Dosage:

Each capsule contains 180mg of new sodium houttuyfonate and absorbing substance. One bottle contains 45 tablets. Take one capsule three times a day.


References:

Bronchitis Unit, Third People's Hospital of Shanghai Second Medical College. J of TCM, 1973 (7):25

Isogai Y., C. A. 1953, 47:2832a

Ji HK et al., J of TCM 1979 (5):28

Jiangxi College of TCM, New Medical Information, 1977 (1):38

Jiangxi Medical Information (Jiangxi School of Pharmacy), 1972 (2):12

Kosuge T et al., J of the Pharmaceutical Society of Japan (Tokyo) 1953, 73(5):435; 1956 76(4):386; 74(8):819;

Kosuge T. J of the Pharmaceutical Society of Japan (Tokyo) 1975, 72(10):1227

Leptospirosis Research Unit, Chengdu College if traditional Chinese Medicine. Scientific Research Compilation. 3rd edition, Chengdu College of TCM, 1972. p.59

Leptospirosis Research Unit, Sichuan Institute of Chinese Materia Medica. Research Information on TCM, 1971 (6):34

Liang YQ, Heilongjiang Medical J 1978(5):22

Liu YL et al., Pharmaceutical Abstracts. Chinese Pharmaceutical Association (Beijing Branch). Sept 1978. p.231

Materia Medica Section, Bateriology-Immunology Dept. Beijing Institute of Tuberculosis. Pharmaceutical Abstracts. Chinese Pharmaceutical Association, 1978, p.264

Materia Medica Unit, Jiangxi Second people's Hospital. Chinese J of Medicine, 1976 56(7):454

Medical Laboratory, Teaching Hospital of Jiangxi College of TCM, New Medical Information, 1975 (2):46

Pediatrics Dept, Fujian People's Hospital. Medical Information of Fuzhou Institute of Medical Science, 1975 (2):62

Qui CQ et al., New Chinese Medicine 1979 10(12):601

Schaller J, Bartonella Diagnosis and Treatment, Hope Academic Press, 2008

TCM Dept. Chengdu College of TCM, Acientific research Compilation. 4th edition, 1975, p.6

The Great Dictionary of Chinese Materia Medica, Shanghai Science and Technology Press, 1988, p.1439-1441

Yang HC et al., C A. 1953 47:8175d

Zhong CY, People Military Medicine 1979 (3):39

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kellyb2411
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That's great info, thanks.

--------------------
Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??

ABX
Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08
Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg
Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08

Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)

85-90% better

Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stacyb
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Thanks great information.

BTW do you take the HH (either one)
on an empty stomach or not?

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seibertneurolyme
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Up for Hoosiers
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lnc2000
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I just wonder did anyone feel better, improving on symptoms with HH capsules from Dr. Zang, I'm thinking of getting it.
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canefan17
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What does this mean,

"Each bottle contains 180mg of new sodium houttuyfonate and absorbing substance."

What's the absorbing substance? And is that what brings the capsules to 300mg total?

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