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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Treatment Center in Arizona

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Author Topic: Treatment Center in Arizona
mv
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We just got back from treatment in Scottsdale, AZ. Awesome, knowledeable, integrated medical center. Check out their website by googling Envita Medical Center. They have a video on Lyme that you can watch. I'm more than happy to answer any questions. They also have great patient care advocates to answer any of your questions. We jumping with joy over the results we've seen!!!
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mv
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OOPPS...that should be we're jumping with joy!!
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Pinelady
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How do they treat?

What are your symptoms?

How were you diagnosed?

And what is the expected outcome?

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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feelfit
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pinelady, it costs in excess of 25,000 dollars for treatment. No insurance accepted. Add lodging to that for the + 1 month required for treatment.

Most of us are just barely getting by now. I don't know how this could be affordable. Of course if a cure was guaranteed, I am sure many of us would find a way.........

Feelfit

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Pinelady
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Your right feelfit. I would not consider mortgaging

the farm unless I had already spent that amount

and did not want to waste another if proven to work. Then I might consider it.

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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coltman
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I just watched their lyme video. What exactly they use for immune system support?
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mv
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Actually, having just gone through treatment with them I personally know they do accept insurance for certain things. Whatever your insurance will cover they will run through for you. Our insurance covered the port insertion, most of the bloodwork, and the antibiotic. This cut the cost of having our son treated in half. It also brought results for us. I privately posted to someone, so let me copy and paste that as far as my son's symptoms and progress.

At this point like anyone treating lyme they can't promise a cure, but they do offer a huge success rate with improvement. They have also been FDA approved for working on a new protocol that they feel might be the cure for Lyme. When it comes to Lyme you are going to pay one way or the other. We had put out thousands just seeking a diagnosis. As his health declined we were adding bigger and more difficult health issues. They were already talking about a hip replacement for my 3 year old, and at one point told us if we didn't find a diagnosis they were afraid we were going to loose him. We figured if we could stop the progression of symptoms we would be saving ourselves money in the future....not to mention of course his health. We did fundraisers and it was amazing how people came through for us. I spoke with several people who lived in the area and came in for periodic maintenance visits. Hearing their stories were amazing. They are getting results!! The doctor himself has an interesting lyme story which led him to working at this clinic.

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mv
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Here's my son's symptoms and improvements....and no I am not affiliated with the group....my son and now myself are just patients. I just know how hopeless, lost, and overwhelmed we have felt with this diagnosis. As I see the improvements in my son I just want others to know there is hope out there!! With our insurance covering the port insertion, antibiotics, and bloodwork it was about $7,000. I know it is more for adults as they had to alter his protocol because he was so little. We went thinking it was going to be more and after seeing the results I'd happily pay more!! I'm trying to answer everyone's.... questions if I missed one just holler at me.

In a nutshell....as you know lyme stories can be a mile long.....constant fevers (average daily temp was about 100.5 to 101), arthritis in both hips with fluid also on both, inflammation of the stomach which then affected his eating, diarrhea and constipation, extreme fatigue and lethargy (only 3 yrs. old so of course unusual), immune system was non-existant (caught everything and had it 2 and 3 times longer than normal, questionable seizures, and was beginning to have slurred speech.

Because of his age they stretched the normal protocol of six weeks to eight and changed it from 4 days a week to three.

They also had to alter the typical protocol because his kidneys and liver were too "young" to handle the full protocol. Instead of IV antibiotic he did an oral one (azithromycin - I know I probably spelled that wrong!) He took that daily along with supplements to help with the inflammation in his body and to repair joint damage. One day a week the IV therapy was vitamins and minerals. The other two days were a chelation agent to rid the body of the toxins that Lyme bacteria releases. It's these toxins that do most of the damage. It also included something that destroys the biofilm which is like a protective armor that the Lyme bacteria has. That then allows the antibiotic to be more effective in killing the spirochetes. Now that we are home we are continuing the supplements for the inflammation and joint damage. They also added an immune booster and immune balance supplement to enable his body to continue fighting on it's own.

Improvements have been normal body temps. increased engery(running around like a little wild man!!!) sleeping normal (not taking 3 and 4 hr. naps daily - I keep telling myself this is a good thing!!! LOL) Huge increase in appetite, normal bowel movements, not complaining of stomach and hip pain, overall appearance has changed - he looks "healthy". (Before people looked at him and asked me what was wrong with him) Improved speech, blood counts in normal ranges.

Of course we're not at 100% but know that will take time. He was in such a downward spiral that we are just tickled pink at the improvements. We feel they armed us with the information and supplements to continue the upward climb toward full healing. I know people want to know long term improvement so we'll continue to post and hopefully this place can help many others. Be sure to check out their website : Envita Medical Center. They are very professional. They treat many things, but Lyme is their "baby" so to speak. They have a lot of latitude in treatment because one of the main doctors is both an MD and a natural doctor. You get the best of both worlds.

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kitty9309
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So they treat chidren?

A member of another forum was treated there, but they would not treat her kids.

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coltman
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quote:
He took that daily along with supplements to help with the inflammation in his body and to repair joint damage. One day a week the IV therapy was vitamins and minerals.

It also included something that destroys the biofilm which is like a protective armor that the Lyme bacteria has.

Now that we are home we are continuing the supplements for the inflammation and joint damage. They also added an immune booster and immune balance supplement to enable his body to continue fighting on it's own.

What are those? - the immune system supplements, the anti biophilm ones

quote:

Be sure to check out their website : Envita

They dont disclose any of their protocols on website.
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bettyg
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mv, please break up your posts into SHORTER paragraphs and double space between each paragraph so us severely neuro lyme folks who can not reador comprehend as is; huge thanks...
use my guideliens below [Smile] hugs


Welcome; I'm so glad you found us!! You've come to the right place for education and support!


lyme disease and CO-INFECTION symptoms lists .... check it out..
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/81386


Dr. Burrascano's most recent "Diagnostic Hints and 2008 Treatment Guidelines for Lyme and Other Tick Borne Illnesses" .
http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/treatment_guidelines.html


PAGES 17-19 discuss ADULT & KIDS MED TREATMENTS!
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/80440?#000006
Dr. B's Supplement List
http://www.lymepa.org/Nutritional_Supplements.pdf


this link, making the most of your LLMD visit, may help you also.
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=020605#000005

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/77378

***************

TREEPATROL'S NEWBIE LEARNING LINKS ... over 1000 links of good info and guidelines galore!! MUST SKIM & READ !!

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/29917
************************************************************************


Betty's suggested POSTING GUIDELINES . many of us have neuro lyme where we can NOT read long solid block text and be able to comprehend and read it as is.

please edit your post by CLICKING PAPER/PENCIL ICON to right of your name. that opens up BOTH subject line and body text.

now please break up your WORDY SENTENCES into one sentence paragraphs. Then hit ENTER KEY ``TWICE`` after each paragraph; we need that space for comprehension.

then go to left hand corner and mark box to receive ALL REPLIES, and click EDIT SEND

we thank you for helping us; otherwise, we will SOB, SCROLL ON BY, since we can't read to help you. If I see posts like this, I SOB them; to hard on me.
------------------------------------------------------

People seeking doctors might be able to get help from their state online information and support group. Nearly 3,400 people belong to state groups. Some of the groups are small but more than 20 of them have 50 or more people and seven have over 100.

To find your state group, go to
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/statenamelyme

Type your state name and lyme as one word, like this -
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/newyorklyme

South Carolina is the only state that needs a hyphen between the statename
and lyme, e.g. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/southcarolina-lyme

The groups are moderated and you have to apply. Most don't allow doctor names, but once on the group, you can ask for doctors in a certain area and ask people to email you privately.
*******************************************

This explains the medical politics around lyme WHY you need an ILADS-educated or ILADS-member LLMD (and there are also some ILADS-member LL NDs (naturopathic doctors):

www.clinicaladvisor.com/Controversy-continues-to-fuel-the-Lyme-War/article/117160/


TESTING

You should also be evaluated for coinfections. Not all tests are great in that regard, either, but a good LLMD can evaluate you and then guide you in testing. One of the top labs is:

www.igenex.com IGENEX

-----
There are a couple other good labs for certain tests: Fry; Clognen; Focus. Your LLMD will know.
========================

VERY important to read - even BEFORE testing:

Dr C's Western Blot explanation is discussed here:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=042077

"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.

Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.

But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.

Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.

Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa.

Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it.

But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM."
===========

TREATMENT *** www.ilads.org

ILADS
The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) provides a forum for health science professionals to share their wealth of knowledge regarding the management of Lyme and associated diseases.


UNDER OUR SKIN dvd LYME DISEASE documentary,
www.lymediseasefilm.com
go to this site to view trailer of UNDER OUR SKIN 5 min. Clip! Premiering 2008!! on big screen 09 in 10 LARGE CITIES ONLY!

HERXING REACTIONS ... understanding them!
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=041517


please get a western blot igm and igg blood test drawn LOCALLY on a mon. or tues. and sent to the below ok! all details are there.

IGENEX , CALIF. BLOOD TESTINGS ...check current $$!

* Please note: What you are about to read below is NOT meant to scare any of you from any lyme testings done; it's meant to be informed PRIOR to going into having various tests done and then be told what the costs will be!
* Mine was sticker $$ shock on various testings done by my 2nd LLMD/new to me in 4=06. Those tests/results are found elsewhere in my links/advise.

* Igenex's charges for these below things cost $905, which I figured up the last 2 days for 2 other folks includes

* The below tests were done for ME; you MAY NOT NEED them all ok! :

* western blot IGM & IGG, this is MANDATORY for you which costs $200 total for 2 tests done; 6.09 same prices still.
*
* *******************************************************
* OPTIONAL ONES ARE:

* co-infection panel for YOUR AREA OF COUNTRY;
* PCR WHOLE BLOOD...this is what my LLMD ordered!

It's PREPAY! unless you are on medicare; IGX will file the
paperwork & it's FREE to you.

go to www.igenex.com and read over their info.
Prices go up twice a year: MAY and NOVEMBER!!

*
* have blood drawn MON. or TUES. only; you don't want your blood sitting in post office over the weekend; will ruin the results!

* Also, call 1-800.832.3200 for CURRENT PRICES!
* They will also send you a ``test kit'' with their required form, all the test vials, & box to ship it in! OUT OF USA will take longer to receive!

* You need to DOWNLOAD IGENEX's required form.******************************************************
*
* MD, DO ,ND, AC, DC are all fine** must sign, date, and show DIAGNOSIS CODE on there why he's ordering the test.

Make sure you show to FAX results and SNAIL MAIL PAPER COPY! My results were lost for 4-5 weeks! Bettyg 
*
* When you get your results, please post them in MEDICAL;
* Post ONLY the POSITIVE & IND ones ....
not the negative ones!

GET COPIES OF ALL YOUR SPECIAL BLOOD TESTS: western blot igm/igg and/or co-infection tests always!!

* Also, look for post by LYMETOO/TUTU on DR. C's (Missouri) explanation of the western blot IGM & IGG numbers, below!

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=

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tosho
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Sorry, but this Center is just to make big $$$. You paid 7000$ for oral azithro and supplements for 8 weeks ?

And someone mentioned 25,000$ ? That is not a normal price.

Listen to this:
minute 1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xtu04gq2Zs

"Lyme is a pandemic...it's a virus that is in your body".

Their presentation looks professional graphically, but actually there are mistakes with information about Lyme.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTiWfyrNBwA

No offense, just my thoughts.

--------------------
[Bb WB igm+] [B.henselae PCR+] [Chlamydia pneum.igm+igg+] [EBV igm-igg+]

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feelfit
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I was quoted in excess of 25,000 out of pocket. Plus housing costs for the required treatment duration.

There has been some info that the head MD had lyme himself. He was interviewed in Public Health Alert.

There has also been some rumor that Dr. F of AZ is working with this doctor for better treatment protocols.

My opinion, as Tosho has stated, the price is quite steep. My opinion again, but if this doctor had lyme, why would he gouge patients ?

The center does look very impressive. The phone contact people are very nice, and professional. But I got the idea that they were sales people, hired to do just that....sell you a treatment. The guy would not let me go after I said that I could not afford it.

FF

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mv
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No, tosho we did not pay that for just oral antibiotics and supplements. I am sorry if that was unclear. I was trying to just give the basic idea. It was for IV therapy that was three days a week. Every other LLMD refused to even see my son because of his age. I hear alot of people seeing doctors without any results. He was a very severe case and now he is doing great.

I was also diagnosed, and since my case was not as severe they created an at home protocol for me. I am obviously only paying for the supplements that I am using. Since they didn't even charge me for a typical office visit as they were already seeing my son, I have a hard time believing they are only out for money.

There will always be people that don't believe good things. That's okay. I know where we've been, and where we're at now. If that can help someone else then I'm thrilled. For those that doubt. I hope that doubt doesn't forever keep them from healing.

Just a funny thought about price. My son was given one dose of tylenol at a hospital once. Cost???? $32!!!! Not $3.20......$32. And no it was not through IV. Just normal oral dose.

Coltman, as I am not a doctor or nurse you could probably get a better answer from their patient care advocates as to what exactly the formulas are for the immune support supplements and the agent used for killing the biofilm. I know the basic goal is to strengthen the immune system so that it can fight on it's own. It's obviously our greatest ally.

I don't want to start an issue over this place. Just wanted to share that we have had great results. Each person knows what is best for them. Research and go for whatever it is. At least take the time to ask the right questions and be open minded. They do have patient care advocates that are more than willing to answer a million questions. They could do a better job explaining the protocols so you understand exactly what is taking place. I just wanted to offer hope to those that may be feeling hopeless, as we were.

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tosho
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quote:
Originally posted by mv:


The other two days were a chelation agent to rid the body of the toxins that Lyme bacteria releases. It's these toxins that do most of the damage. It also included something that destroys the biofilm which is like a protective armor that the Lyme bacteria has.


Just to clarify so others will not get confused:

1. Chelation agents are not used to get rid of any neurotoxins released from Bb die-off.
2. How do you know that "toxins do most of the damage" ?
3. Borrelia biofilm is not proven yet (ILADS standpoint).

--------------------
[Bb WB igm+] [B.henselae PCR+] [Chlamydia pneum.igm+igg+] [EBV igm-igg+]

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feelfit
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MV,

I don't think that anyone here is questioning your sons great response, nor is anyone trying to start a ruckus.

I am happy that you had succes. I am more than willing to believe "good things". It is the cost prohibitive price that is alarming for most of us.

Envita has been discussed here several times in the past. Please don't take it as a slight to you or the miracle that your little boy received.

ff

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coltman
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quote:

Coltman, as I am not a doctor or nurse you could probably get a better answer from their patient care advocates as to what exactly the formulas are for the immune support supplements and the agent used for killing the biofilm. I know the basic goal is to strengthen the immune system so that it can fight on it's own. It's obviously our greatest ally.

That part I am very interested in. So you dont know what supps they are? It has no labels?

Hmm would they tell me what they protocols are without being their patient?

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feelfit
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Ps...It also looks very odd when someone signs up and begins posting about a treatment center...tends to make people feel suspicious.

I'm sure you understand.

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feelfit
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They sent MV home with her own supplements, perhaps she will share her home treatment plan?
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mv
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Feelfit, I've actually been a member for quite a while. I was working full time and taking care of my son's health problems so didn't have much time to post. When I went to log back in I couldn't remember my password so resigned.

It seems a few are just trying to microanalyze every statement. I truly was just trying to share our success. As stated, I am not a doctor or nurse. I am just a parent and was trying to share the jist of everything. I'm sure you are right in that I have not stated everything perfectly right. For that I am sorry. I am not going to post here on this thread any longer as my goal was not to argue or defend our success. For those that truly just want help and insight I'd be more than happy to respond to a pm.

We were there and saw first hand. I hope that counts for something for those that are looking for help.

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feelfit
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I am sure that you will receive many desparate PM's. As I stated before, I was interested in this place..I am desparate. The cost is for most, prohibitive. That is all I am saying.....

Sorry you feel defensive and argumentive. Thank you for sharing your story.

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tosho
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I think ILADS doctors are far better than this Center. And more affordable.

--------------------
[Bb WB igm+] [B.henselae PCR+] [Chlamydia pneum.igm+igg+] [EBV igm-igg+]

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Pinelady
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I am so happy you got your son back. Do they have him on a maintainance dose? I do wish it was affordable for all. Hopefully more will be available soon and with competition prices will drop.

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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Abxnomore
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Thank you for sharing this information with us.

I also hope your son continues to do well and would love to hear about his progress and any additional information about the specifics of the treatment.

Godspeed!

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Siciliano
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Hi, mv, I am very happy to hear such a wonderful story about your sweet little boy becoming healthy again. That is the most joy a parent can have. I am so glad that you found this place. Be happy and make wonderful memories with him, obviously that's what God wanted. Good luck to the both of you. You're always welcome to pm me if you need any names or anything else. [kiss]

--------------------
I'm sorry but I am no longer accepting any private messages due to my own battle with lyme.

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Marnie
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"Integrated" medicine works...so happy for you!!!

I would love to know *exactly* what vitamins and minerals were given, what was given for chelation, what they feel is the "biofilm" - plasmin? and what was given to deal with the biofilm, how did they deal with toxins released - what toxin - NH3 = ammonia/other, name of immune booster?

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kam
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MV...Dr. F is speaking at the lyme support group in Scottsdale in September I believe.

I know you are working so not sure if you will be able to take the time off work.

There has been talk on the lyme support group regarding this center.

But, you are the first that has had positive things to say.

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kelmo
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mv...I am from AZ and know of many who had their pockets emptied by this center. This is a heads up to the newbies reading this thread.

mv, with only eight posts to your name, and joining this past Saturday, and ALL your posts pertaining to this center....well, we've been spammed by the best, and you need to hone your skills. Seen it.

They say they take insurance, but those I know who went never had their insurance billed.

If the place is too fancy, you wonder where the money is going.

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seekhelp
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Kelmo, see this person's post a few up...

"
posted 16 August, 2009 05:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feelfit, I've actually been a member for quite a while. I was working full time and taking care of my son's health problems so didn't have much time to post. When I went to log back in I couldn't remember my password so resigned.

It seems a few are just trying to microanalyze every statement. I truly was just trying to share our success. As stated, I am not a doctor or nurse. I am just a parent and was trying to share the jist of everything. I'm sure you are right in that I have not stated everything perfectly right. For that I am sorry. I am not going to post here on this thread any longer as my goal was not to argue or defend our success. For those that truly just want help and insight I'd be more than happy to respond to a pm.

We were there and saw first hand. I hope that counts for something for those that are looking for help."

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kelmo
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Did you click on mv's profile? She joined August 15, 2009. Eight posts..ALL about one about Envita.
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rachellemarie
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I went to Envita for several months and all I got out of the deal was a lot less money in my bank account. Only my opinion, but what they are doing up there won't cure Lyme. They certainly don't have my recommendation, and not just because they did me no good. But now that I've done my own EXTENSIVE research on Lyme, I see now that their protocol simply can't work. My opinion.
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mv
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kelmo, I am NOT associated with Envita I am just a parent. I've already stated why it showed me as a new member. I believe my previous sign in name was cissa4, but I can't remember for sure. If you don't agree with what Envita does, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was just so excited I wanted to put it out there for others. I'm just shocked at how I've been lamblasted for simply sharing our success. That's part of the reason I quit coming on this group when my son was first diagnoses. Anything good got blown away with skepticism. It's so so sad. I can't make you believe we had great success, I can't make you believe our blood work was covered by insurance, I can't make you believe it was a great experience. But it all was. We all know Lyme is a tricky disease with no one thing working for everyone. Their protocol worked for us though, and I personally, face to face talked with others that it worked for them. If it's not for you okay, but don't discredit that it may be lifesaving for someone else. At minimum give me credit for being a parent fighting for the health of my child. My family has been through way too much to be written off as a scammer.
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Marnie
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Never mind... I just found Bb's
neutotoxin - what amino acid it comes from and what that toxin does.

In sequence:

http://www.lyme.org/conferences/94_agenda.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1217971

http://www.answers.com/topic/2-3-pyridinedicarboxylic-acid

Our brains need glucose, a LOT of it...ongoing.

But in a jam, it can substitute something else...ketones.

Go here and start with "it it well accepted that..." Read slowly and carefully!

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ppar/2008/243791.html

Now...go to my sarcoidosis post to see how to increase that helper.

Curious STRUCTURE...double bond O and single bond OH on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan

A LONG time ago, I remember reading that Bb cannot grow in gelatin (gelatin has all of the amino acids except tryptophan). Indeed, Bb's genetic codes indicate it needs tryptophan (so do we).

Oddly, that double bonded O and single bonded OH is present on the "end" of Oleic acid...an Omega 9.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleic_acid

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seekhelp
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Marnie, what's this research mean from a treatment perspective in simple terms?
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Marnie
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Activating PPARy2 via taking an Omega 9...oleic acid which looks to then inhibit HDAC2...

If Bb is inhibiting HDAC1 and we inhibit HDAC2, that only leaves HDAC3 (which maybe key) and HDAC8 to remove acetyl groups.

Oleic acid is in coconut oil...and in a number of other "good" things too...olive oil...

Now don't you DARE as me how much, how often...

;-)

Go to the Alzheimer's - coconut oil links to see what amt. they are taking/recommend.

A woman DOCTOR has a husband who was getting AD. She did a lot of research and found out increasing ketones via coconut oil helps.

That supplement for her husband is reversing his AD. Here's the link:

http://www.healthcentral.com/alzheimers/c/62/54266/coconut-alzheimer

Bb's neurotoxin looks to be a metabolite from the breakdown of tryptophan. The acid produced from the breakdown of tryptophan impacts the synthesis of glucose (not enough)...which our brains need a lot of, all the time. In a jam, when there is not enough glucose, our brains can use ketones.

The inflammatory cytokines are playing a huge part in this disruption too...impacting glucose and the receptors.

Like I've said over and over. We have to tame down the inflammatory cytokines AND hit Bb.

There IS more than one way to tame down inflammation...MgCl is the ideal.

[ 08-22-2009, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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Dawn in VA
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Marnie said:
A LONG time ago, I remember reading that Bb cannot grow in gelatin (gelatin has all of the amino acids except tryptophan). Indeed, Bb's genetic codes indicate it needs tryptophan (so do we).
-------
During the IDSA guideline hearings, Philips said that a completely different medium must be used to grow the cystic form of Bb than for the spiro form.

Wonder what the differences might be. I'm not suggesting + or - tryptophan- just "things that make you go hmmmm..."

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(The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.)

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springshowers
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quote:

"Integrated" medicine works...so happy for you!!! BY MARNIE

Does this mean Marnie Gives her approval of this sort of treatment and clinic? ??
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tick battler
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mv,

It's wonderful to hear that your son is doing so much better. I don't know but am thinking you will probably need to continue treating him with meds for quite some time to ensure he is fully cured.

My 3 kids are very young as well and see Dr. J in CT and are improving after 1 year of abx. We still have a way to go but the majority of the physical symptoms are gone.

Just curious as to what you tried with your son before going to Envita? Did you try an aggressive oral protocol first (2 to 4 meds) or any IV though a LLMD? If so, what did you try and for how long?

Thanks,

tickbattler

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Veromia
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I think feelfit, kelmo, tosho and whoever else need to lay off.

And biofilms are proven. The fact that u dont know that says alot about you.

[ 09-03-2009, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Veromia ]

--------------------
Let us fight with peace.

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Veromia
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....

--------------------
Let us fight with peace.

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springshowers
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Hi Veromia.
Are you interested in this treatment approach or have you had experience with it?

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feelfit
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Veromia,

Who said anything about there being no biofilms? Certainly NOT me. You obviously have not been around here long enough to know that not everything here is truth.

I Never discredited the poster. I was just alerting newbies, like you, to investigate first.

I have no malicious feelings for ANYONE here...Including you.

So PEACE OUT eh?

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keltyl
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Wow, I just read this whole post and CANNOT believe how rude some of you are. This is what took me away from Prohealth where I started when I learned I had Lyme.

I'll say it like I said it there, "If there's a post you don't like or agree with, just skip over and don't even bother to read it".

I don't have the time or ability to keep up with this board most of the time, but never saw the nastiness I've seen on this post. Shame on some of you!

mv....so glad for you that your son is doing better.

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seekhelp
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Oh Keltyl, I'm sure you can find more nastiness than this post if you look harder on the forum or catch things before they get deleted into the black hole of posts by management. [Smile]
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dmc
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Spring,

Remember the hoopla of the Bionic 800? Stuff like this just cycles. Between good, bad and doubt.

If anyone here goes...please post your experience.

I haven't heard much of the Bionic anymore except from "sixgoofykids".

Wish the success ones would post more but hey, they must have their lives back.

That is wonderful. [Smile]

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feelfit
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To reiterate, Veromia, especially if you are addressing me, which I THINK you are. I did not, have not, and will not minimize the success that MV experienced with her son. I am honestly happy for that and have experessed it here several times.

I have only expressed my concern over the PRICE of ENVITA, not it's treatment modalities. Nor have I called anyone a 'salesperson' or doubted their credibility.

I feel that I am a very fair and generally nurturing individual. I do not profess to 'have the answer' if I did, I would not be here. I believe that anything is possible.

Especially, I believe that healing through means that God has given us is the way to go. This is my opinion. Unfortunately, the way to healing has not been revealed yet.

Until that time, my mind is OPEN. I would prefer to be healed naturally. And natural means are definatley necessary as supportive measures, we know that. (Probiotics, Liver support)

What makes you any different than the ones YOU are ridiculing by chastising Tosho, myself, perhaps Kelmo? Your posts are just as judgemental as you have found others to be.

You call people "obsessive", tell them that they do not know anything etc.. How is this different?
It isn't.

Fact is, you have not been here for long, on Lymenet at least. If you listen, instead of touting your own agenda, you will find others have had horrific experiences with therapies that you are suggesting.

Yes, we are all different. What works for one may be the bane of another. Despite your experience with this diesease, there are others here who have no experience, they are coming here for support and guidance.

True, I am still sick. That does not mean that I haven't tried lots of things. I own a rife machine. I do supportive therapies. I tried Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy and for me, it was a disaster.

I ended up with swallowing issues that still persist. So, it IS irresponsible to say things like: "what else works"? Oxygen therapy, rife. Or to tout ozone therapy, which can be dangerous if put into the wrong hands.

Blanket statements like this just are not acceptable. Better phrasing would be: In my opinion, or this has been my experience.

"First do no harm".

[ 09-01-2009, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: feelfit ]

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DaisyJane
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Relevant info at LymeNet Europe

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2602&sid=4550619868c1fc12218d1ce764f898df

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seekhelp
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Amen Feelfit. Well put.
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seekhelp
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My concern with the biofilm theory is even ILADS docs didn't mention Alan MacDonald's work at the July 30th IDSA hearing.

This world-class researcher who was front and center in UOS had none of his research referenced that day. What does that say really?

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Veromia
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Really ???????? you dont believe in biofilm?.

Poor Alan Mcdonald!!!

I chimed in because mI felt somone was being ganged up on.

Looks like the people who get well stop posting because of ridicule also.

I stand by everything I said. When you begin ridicule you earn the right to get it back.


Thats all I have to say.

--------------------
Let us fight with peace.

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Veromia
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Ok though I hope we can stop now.

I am the type of person who doesnt like to see someone picked on.


I'm sorry if i hurt anyone.

--------------------
Let us fight with peace.

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springshowers
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Sorry.. IMO The info at Lymenet Europe is not Relivant in any way.!!
Its a small group of about 3 or 4 people cutting and pasting various others on various forums and then ripping them apart with their Views and Opinions.
There is no factual evidence there even though you see their siting continually posted as if it is by law and they will yell at you if you do not do the same.
IF you do go ahead and attache a citing then it is cut up and pasted into parts and ripped up in front of you and before you know it all that you said was not not what you said at all.
What a waste of time. I do not suggest anyone go to that site to learn anything that is not bias.

If you want validation of one view then you may be able to find that there and it might make you feel all fuzzy in side.

I myself want to hear and see both sides of any issue and then choose myself what I want to.. I also want to have the respect in doing so... even when it does not match someone elses choice.

That is how it should work...

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DaisyJane
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I reread the LymeNet Europe thread, there's a good discussion about biofilms with pros and cons on Envita, quotes from different forums also pro and con about Envita. It is very relevant.
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springshowers
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If you an sift through the BIas and BS you may be able to get something out of it.
But in the full scope of things they do not present from pros and cons and just from what they believe! Period.

For me I can not learn much from that and am turned off by the attitude too..

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m0joey
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For those that are interested in the bionic, there is a yahoo group called bionic880 that is still very active. The discussion there consists of biophoton machines in addition to bionic, such as PE1 and lightworks. The "hoopla" has certainly not died down. in fact, 10 months after going to Germany I consider it the best investment I ever made. My hope is that the PE1 will have a protocol designed for it so that we can cross-compare the two machines (PE1 is about 1000 which would make treatment much less cost-prohibitive).

With the price of Envita, i could buy two bionic machines, 2 ozone generators + steam sauna. I'm sorry but that is preposterous. At least when you buy a machine, it's a fixed cost that pays dividends for the next 10 years.

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DaisyJane
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You are the one who appears biased here, with an attitude, and it would seem a personal agenda.

I am a new member and I am turned off by YOU.

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springshowers
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Yep You got a point MJ..
That is true and very valuable. What ozone generators are being used? I have looked into them before and Never really did more research or decided on one...

Glad you feel your investment was a great one!!!>.ALways good to hear..

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springshowers
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And Daisy.. Sorry you feel that way. Everyone has a different opinion and I shared mine. THere may be others who go there and have great experiences.
I find that though in order to have a great or good experience you have to agree with "them".

So for those who do.. it could be just the opposite of mine. And that is fine..

So we all are here sharing our experiences and some may help others and some may be things other just do not understand or have the same experience.

It happens all the time.

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m0joey
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LNE displays a transparent and universal disgust toward all alternative therapies. Of course they post endless scientific abstracts and clinical studies to defend their viewpoints.

I think the bias springshowers is referring to is more akin to the bias of a researcher doing a clinical study on a drug. The controls in place minimize the bias within the study, but there is probably bias toward pharmaceuticals preexisting outside of the study.

In this case, forums like LNE don a cloak of scientific legitimacy to appear unbiased, but they end up wielding the cloak as dogma to shut down any supporters of therapies that haven't undergone extensive clinical studies.

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springshowers
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Yes. That is what I wanted to say!> Thanks for that MJ.. That is very well described...
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DaisyJane
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Springshowers, your apology is accepted and no need to have worried about explaining yourself further, I really do understand where you are coming from.

I certainly would not have let your opinion about LymeNet Europe, or of any other sources that I would deem relevant to share concerning the topic at hand, discourage me from posting links in the future.

Exchanging and sharing information that may help others is why we are here, I agree.

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Veromia
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I appreciate the bit of freedom we have here to debate.

I have been part of some other forums when there was a slight notion of a breeze of disagreement the who thread was deleted.

Portions of what you said were edited all over the place.

I really am greatfull for this freedom.

There is nothing about this disease that coincides w staying in the lines.

Discussions would sure not be much less than a scribble .

--------------------
Let us fight with peace.

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springshowers
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a healthy debate can bring upon great learning.

I emphasize healthy...

At times it can get out of hand and people get way tooo personal.... and even lash out ruthlessly ...

So I agree too.... its liberating to be able to go back and forth and provoke thought and new ideas..

THanks all

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tosho
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quote:
Originally posted by Veromia:
feelfit, tosho said biofilms arent proven .

And seems to not think that toxins cause a large amount of damage and that is to the contrary.

I'm sorry to say that I dont think tosho knows what toshos talking about, and should do some research before going off.


Well, I should said it more precisely - I mean that role of a biofilm in Lyme Disease is still not clear and for sure more research is needed.
Maybe biofilm is partially responsible for unresponsiveness to abx treatment in more difficult to treat patients.
On the other hand, I know that many people achieved remission without addressing any potential biofilm.

Another thing - if there is biofilm involved in Lyme, how to get rid of it? Borrelia burgdorferi is intracellular most of the time, so you can only imagine how difficult it would be to remove this biofilm. I doubt IV EDTA is the answer...

As to toxins - I was asking how MV knows that "toxins do the most damage".
If it were the toxins that do most of the damage, it would be so easy to get better - just do detoxification protocols.
I know quite a lot of people that were very sick with Lyme and got much better only with abx treatment without any detoxification protocols.

I myself support detoxification - in order to help my immune system. But I know that in my case these are for sure not the toxins that make so sick, but infection itself.
Other people maybe see more benefits of detoxification. (I think especially those with HLA-DR4 gene).

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[Bb WB igm+] [B.henselae PCR+] [Chlamydia pneum.igm+igg+] [EBV igm-igg+]

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