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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » I don't see how LYME can mimic MS... ????

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Author Topic: I don't see how LYME can mimic MS... ????
kareamber
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I do not understand how lyme can mimic MS. I realize that a lot of the neuro symptoms of lyme could such as numbness, tingling, weakness, and brain fog.
But as far as I know MS does NOT cause the common lyme symptoms like joint pain, muscle pain, rash, fevers, lymph pain, and etc... When people say that lyme is the same thing as MS that confuses me. I think their symptoms are often very distiguishable.

I'm thinking the only time they are similar is when one only has neuro symptoms.

Am I totally off on this? Could someone please explain this to me?

I've been told I could have MS, but my MRI's are normal, neuro exams are normal, but I have neuro AND arthritis like symptoms.

Look forward to hearing your answers.

--------------------
IgeneX IGG POS 30+ 31++++ 41++
IGM 30+ 31+++ 34IND 41IND 83-93IND
Quest NEG IGG 30 and 41 only

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Vermont_Lymie
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My understanding of this:

Lyme manifests differently in different people. Like that other spirochetal disease, syphilis, late-stage lyme can manifest as any, or all, of a range of neuro symptoms.

Take any MS symptom -- numbness, tingling, weakness, brain fog, inability to walk, speech disorders, vision problems, muscle problems, nerve problems, cognition and memory impairment, and more -- these can be caused by lyme disease as well.

Like MS, which is a description of a condition, not a description of its cause, lyme can cause multiple sclerosis of the brain's white matter.

Lyme may cause these symptoms, commonly thought of being MS symptoms, without a bulls-eye rash or joint pain.

Since the blood tests for lyme are so poor, it must be very difficult to distinguish between lyme and MS.

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massman
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Great explanation Vermont. (I do love VT, used to fish a lot on the White River in the Rochester area)

I was sent two maps of the distribution of lyme and MS in the US by Klutzo. The match was about 90% the same. I feel the two are pretty much the same.

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Marnie
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Oxidative stress in lyme and MS...very damaging.

http://msj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/4/5/413

MS is thought to be caused by a ***variant of*** a virus...HHV6.. which may re-emerge.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10738137

And there is a GABA connection too.

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blaze
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I'm not sure how to answer your question, but have you seen the following article? MS may have an EMF link...

The Biological Effects of Dirty Electricity with Special Emphasis on Diabetes and Multiple Sclerosis.

Dr Magda Havas
Environmental & Resource Studies
Trent University, Peterborough, ON, K9J 7B8, CANADA

http://www.icems.eu/docs/Havas.pdf

Perhaps you should write to Dr. Havaas about it? Her email is included on the page.

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Wonko
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My Lyme presented with neuro symptoms in the absence of joint involvement or rash or other systemic symptoms that would point more obviously to TBI.

I had attacks and remissions, and I was a 28 year old female. I also had lesions on my brain MRI. My first bad attach was in January, away from tick season. I don't recall a tick bite. I had 3 negative ELISAs.

I was never diagnosed with MS, because my LP was normal. But I was told it was possible. The plan was to "wait and see" for more lesions to appear on MRI.

Then, to stop a "flare," I was put on oral steroids.

It was only one month AFTER the steroids that I woke up one day with extensive joint pain and stiffness, and decided myself to get to an LLMD.

So it can be confusing. I don't think that I was foolish for worrying that I had MS given my presentation.

Even in cases where stiffness or rash or other non-neuro symptoms appear, people may still remain concerned about MS. I think once doctors mention that disease as a possible diagnosis, it is difficult to move on and consider something else. I was skeptical at first that my problems really came from a tiny tick that I never even saw!

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dmc
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There is a video presentation from a former Pres. of ILADS presenting "Chronic Lyme Disease: Connection to MS- Facts behind the controversy"
from http://www.newhaven.edu/unh/lyme/

I had posted this before when you brought this up a few months ago.

Sometimes one just wants to be labeled a more acceptable "so called disease". May get more sympathy than Lyme does.

That is understandable, people & doctors have no clue how Lyme and TBDs can effect the body. But say you got MS wow, how they sympathize but dismiss you from ever getting better.

Try using the MS label and see how you get the "what's the point if you're gonna be in a wheelchair anyways". (from an orthopedic surgeon to me)

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AmyPW8
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I was dxd with MS first. However, I did not believe it and a good thing. My neuro said I did have Lyme antibodies in my blood but that was from an old infection. Really? [shake]

One of the links I found useful is below:

http://www.canlyme.com/lymemultiplesclerosis.html

--------------------
Amy

Diagnosed April 29, 2007.

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JRWagner
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One must consider semantics...

NOT ALL LYME SYMPTOMS mimic MS...Just SOME. There is your answer. What confusion?

MS is simply a CONDITION with no known cause...yes, there are hunches, but nothing definite.

I too have MS symptoms and markers (Oligoclonal Antibodies in my CSF)...extreme fatigue, pain (Yes, pain IS a symptom of MS) and brain fog.

One can be treated for MS and Lyme concurrently...for MS to lesson brain and spinal cord damage, and for Lyme to treat the cause of the problems.

Peace, Love and Wellness,
JRW

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Sojourner
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My husband sees the llmd referenced in DMC's posting above.

Basically, he says they are two different diseases.what you describe as common symptoms, (those defined by Steere and company), the rheumatic ones, are one disease type caused by borrelia, and the purely neuro ones as another disease type caused by borrelia.

If a disease is misdefined to begin with, can we ever really get it right? I don't think so. One cannot look at the symptoms of Steere and Co and extrapolate that to the neuro symptoms.

This is not to say that those with bulls eyes and swollen joints cannot develop neuro symptoms, but their primary disease is not neurological. Whether it is strain variability, genetic susceptibility or co-infection or a combination, I don't know but they are dissimilar diseases.

The "common" lyme symptoms can throw a lot of people off when they are diagnosed with MS.......I know it did with me when my husband was MS dx'd

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kareamber
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Thanks for the input.

It's hard, cause when I first got sick I had mainly neuro symptoms. However as it progressed I developed many arthitic symptoms such as the joint pain, and muscle pain. I would say now it's about 50/50.

I do have a brother in law who has Primary Progressive MS and I've never doubted his diagnosis of MS. His symptoms def don't have a lyme feel to them. I guess it just varies on the individual.

--------------------
IgeneX IGG POS 30+ 31++++ 41++
IGM 30+ 31+++ 34IND 41IND 83-93IND
Quest NEG IGG 30 and 41 only

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wtl
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quote:
Originally posted by kareamber:

I do have a brother in law who has Primary Progressive MS and I've never doubted his diagnosis of MS. His symptoms def don't have a lyme feel to them. I guess it just varies on the individual.

I assume that your brother in law has already ruled out Lyme disease by this point? When you said his symptoms def don't have a lyme feel, how do you mean? Are you reading everyone's reply carefully so far?
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IckyTicky
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I don't know. But I know that I had L'hermittes sign in both heels before finally being diagnosed with CDC Lyme. MRI ruled out an MS diagnosis, even though at first my neuro was positive I had MS due to the L'Hermittes and clonus and hyperreflexia.

L'Hermittes is almost exclusive to MS from what I've read. But I don't have MS

--------------------
IGM: 18+, 23+, 30+, 31+++, 34+, 39IND, 41++, 58+++, 66+, 83-93IND
IGG: 31+, 39IND, 41+
Also positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae and RMSF.
Whole family of 5 dx with Lyme.

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Veromia
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lyme neurotoxins damage nerve sheaths. Simple as that .

MS is the damage of nerve sheaths messing up signals to the brain. What damaged the sheaths they dont know.

Alot of us do though.

--------------------
Let us fight with peace.

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maps
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Great information, thank you. Being treated for lyme but just diagnosed with MS.

These posts are so helpful

regards
maps

--------------------
1999 CFS, 2002 CMV Myco pneumonia
1 year antibiotics on and off
2002 EBV, 2009 Positive Igenex Borellia and Babesia, Brain mri severe white matter disease
Monoclonal Gammopathy. On and off antibiotics since sept. March 9 started iv antibiotics

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treepatrol
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100 different strains of borrelia in usa over 300 worldwide.
They all can cause different signs in the body then throw in the coinfections and genetics and you get ms als alz parkensons etc etc.

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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