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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » What is your opinion on lifting weights and fighting these infections?

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Author Topic: What is your opinion on lifting weights and fighting these infections?
richedie
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I have been lifting weights for over 20 years, it has been a huge part of my life. I was a trainer for about three years as well so lifting, exercise, nutrition are in my blood.

Problem is, Babesia, Borrelia and friends ar ein my blood now as well.

Not lifting hard and giving it my all and feeling the soreness or delayed onset muscle soreness days later is foreign to me.
Now, all I have is pain and soreness from the disease(s).

So, I am wondering if I could over do it with my lifting. It is hard for me to cut back and take a break because it is who I am.

I read in Dr. S's book where he talks about how essential exercise is for NK cells and endorphin production and that he had a marathon running who came to him with Lyme and co-infections.

He said she got well so fast and he attributed this to her constant or continuing to work out daily and run, run, run.

That is confusing to me because many including Dr. B say that too much exercise when you have Lyme can be bad and pushing too hard can be detrimental. He also says to stay away from cardio. This goes against what Dr. S said.

Now, I am well aware of overtraining when it comes to working out. However, those limits are probably comprimised when you have this disease.

What have others experienced?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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carly
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I have experienced that it is difficult, if not impossible for me to be able to know -before it's too late- if I'm overdoing it!

My capability varies. So does my desire to perform certain activities.

I am just trying my best to listen carefully to the signals my body is sending me.

*I have had to change "who I am".

That being someone who would start a project that's physically demanding (say cleaning the house or gardening, for example) and stick to it until it's finished.

Now, I do what I can and maybe stop before the job is complete.

I don't like leaving things undone, but sometimes there's no choice.

If not, I'll pay for it. My whole family will.

I now will come home from a walk before it's "finished", which I never before thought I'd do.

My experience: when my body tells me it's time to stop, I have to stop.

In fact, I may have gone too far.

As far as lifting weights and me: I'm still working my way up to a bike ride.

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JamesNYC
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My experience is to keep working out. Let the way you feel be your guide.

I suppose it's influenced by how debilitated someone is. There are people here who have trouble walking to the car.

Babs leaves you in an anemic state. So you will feel weaker, and your recovery time will be increased. But you will know your limit when you just don't FEEL like lifting.

Babs reduced strength and made me feel like not working out much. But I kept at it. I will have a normal workout one day, then a couple of days later, my next workout would have a drop in strength of 30%.

I kept lifting and running, but at lower levels because my body just couldn't do the regular routine. Now that I'm better, I can do much of what I used to be able to do.


So, I say don't worry about working out. It won't hurt you, it won't make the infections worse, you will feel better BECAUSE you workout.

Dr B says to limit aerobic exercise so you body can focus it's energy on fighting the infections.


James

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sixgoofykids
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I have lifted all through my treatment. I did cut out the cardio for many months until my stamina could take it.

Consider this - because you have a chronic illness, your adrenals are stressed from disease. So, treat your body as though you have over-trained. Work out from that perspective. Over-training stresses the adrenals .... well your adrenals are already stressed.

You can add back in the cardio when your stamina allows.

I put my Lyme into remission a couple times from working out, so yes, it does help, but no, it's not always enough. I do think it was a big part of the reason I was so responsive to treatment. Don't stop, but maybe adjust how you're doing things.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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Keebler
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-
http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

Treatment Guidelines, 16h edition, October, 2008

Joseph J. Burrascano, Jr., M.D.

Page 20:
. . .

If treatment can be continued long term, then a remarkable degree of recovery is possible.

However, attention must be paid to all treatment modalities for such a recovery - not only antibiotics, but rehab and exercise programs, nutritional supplements, enforced rest, low carbohydrate, high fiber diets, attention to food sensitivities, avoidance of stress, abstinence from caffeine and alcohol, and absolutely no immunosuppressants, even local doses of steroids (intra-articular injections, for example).

. . . .

Page 31:

. . .

LYME DISEASE REHABILITATION


Despite antibiotic treatments, patients will NOT return to normal unless they exercise, so therefore an aggressive rehab program is absolutely necessary. It is a fact that a properly executed exercise program can actually go beyond the antibiotics in helping to clear the symptoms and to maintain a remission.


Although the scientific basis for the benefits of exercises is not known, there are several reasonable theories.


It is known that Bb will die if exposed to all but the tiniest oxygen concentrations. If an aggressive exercise program can increase tissue perfusion and oxygen levels, then this may play a role in what is being seen.


Also, during aggressive exercise, the core body temperature can rise above 102 degrees; it is known that B. burgdorferi is very heat sensitive. Perhaps it is the added tissue oxygenation, or higher body temperature, or the combination that weakens the Lyme Borrelia, and allows the antibiotics and our defenses to be more effective.


Regular exercise-related movements can help mobilize lymph and enhance circulation. In addition,there is now evidence that a carefully structured exercise program may benefit T-cell function: this function will depress for 12 to 24+ hours after exercise, but then rebound.


This T-cell depression is more pronounced after aerobics which is why aerobics are not allowed. The goal is to exercise intermittently, with exercise days separated by days of total rest, including an effort to have plenty of quality sleep.


The trick is to time the exercise days to take advantage of these rebounds. For an example, begin with an exercise day followed by 3 to 5 rest days; as stamina improves, then fewer rest days will be needed in between workouts.


However, because T-cell functions do fall for at least one day after aggressive exercises, be sure to never exercise two days in a row. Finally, an in intermittent exercise program, properly executed, may help to reset the HPA axis more towards normal.


On the following page is an exercise prescription that details these recommendations.


This program may begin with classical physical therapy if necessary. The physical therapy should involve massage, heat, ultrasound and simple range of motion exercises to relieve discomfort and promote better sleep and flexibility.


Ice (vasoconstriction) and electrical stimulation (muscle spasm and trauma) should not be used!


The program must evolve into a graded, ultimately strenuous exercise program that consists of a specific regimen of non-aerobic conditioning- see below.


Have the patient complete a gentle hour of prescribed exercise, then go home, have a hot bath or shower, than try to take a nap. Initially, patients will need this sleep, but as they recover, the exercise will energize them and then a nap will no longer be needed.


NOTE: a cardiac stress test may be necessary prior to exercising to ensure safety.

-------------

Page 32:

LYME REHAB-PHYSICAL THERAPY PRESCRIPTION

. . . (there is a P.T. prescription all set to fill out here)

. . .

Excerpt:

PROGRAM:

1. Aerobic exercises are NOT allowed, not even low impact variety, until the patient has recovered.


2. Conditioning: work to improve strength and reverse the poor conditioning that results from Lyme, through a whole-body exercise program, consisting of light calisthenics and/or resistance training, using light resistance and many repetitions.


This can be accomplished in exercise classes called "stretch and tone", or "body sculpture", or can be achieved in the gym with exercise machines or carefully with free weights (see cautions above).


3. Each session should last one hour. A gentle hour is preferable to a strenuous half-hour. If the patient is unable to continue for the whole hour, then decrease the intensity to allow him/her to do so.


4. Exercise no more often than every other day. The patient may need to start by exercising every 4th or 5th day initially, and as abilities improve, work out more often, but NEVER two days in a row. The nonexercise days should be spent resting.


5. This whole-body conditioning program is what is required to achieve wellness. A simple walking program will not work, and simply placing the patient on a treadmill or an exercise bike is not acceptable (except very briefly, as part of a warm-up), as aerobics can be damaging and must be avoided.

. . . .

Much more at the link.

-========================


http://www.lymepa.org/Nutritional_Supplements.pdf

Nutritional Supplements in Disseminated Lyme Disease

J.J. Burrascano, Jr., MD (2008)

-

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coltman
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I think if you can do it -its great. Don't make long breaks it will be hard to return - I think this what broke it for me. A month break caused by constant flue this winter a month and then it was irreversibly bad and all rolling downhill since then.

- I had to quit lifting and dragon boating, infections are just too much. I lost 30 pounds of muscle so far and kept all fat (even my co-workers noticed that I am "withering down"), I tried get back to gym a few times but with pretty pathetic results .My only "exercise" is daily 2-3 miles walk nowdays

I ll see if I can get back after I start abx, but plan to do it slowly and limit it to anaerobic weight training for hours or so, because from what I read this seems best mode of exercise time/returns wise.

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massman
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You boat with dragons ?

I have no experience with that, although I have a BIL who occasionally roars like a dragon.

Seriously, never heard of it. Could you explain it please ?

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sixgoofykids
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Coltman, even with weight training throughout, I still had muscle wasting. It's a tough disease. The good news is, I'm back and as strong as ever. You can get there, too.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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Sammi
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Hi richedie. I have always been very active, and I have contiuned to exercise as much as possible during treatment. That said, when I am treating Babesiosis (I am now) I cannot do cardio of any kind.

I still do weight training, but sometimes I have to decrease reps or eliminate certain exercises because of current symptoms. If I am herxing, I skip working out. It is frustrating, but you have to listen to your body even when you don't like what it is saying!

For me it is mostly the co-infections that impact my ability to exercise. Just do what you can when you can. In time you will be able to do more.

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richedie
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Dr. B says no aerobic exercise due to T cel supression.

My fear is overtraining since I like to lift heavy. [Frown]

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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JamesNYC
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Weight lifting is ANAEROBIC! You won't overtrain not matter how heavy you lift! It's NOT AEROBIC! Stop worrying about it. You need your muscles!

And BTW, I lifted and ran and hiked and skied throughout the 23 years I had undiagnosed lyme. And kept doing it through the last 5 years of babs. I'm getting better and better and I think my ability to continuously exercise helped (but I have no proof of that).

If you can do it, do it!

James

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Melodymaker
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Richedie, I would say do what is comfortable for your body's current condition.

If lifting your usual creates problems for you, then cut back to 1/2 and see if you still have problems. If you do, cut back again.

Once you reach a good level for how you are now, then slowly build each week.

Remember though that you will achieve results. If you have to cut back now, that doesn't mean you'll be there forever.

Be kind to yourself and not driven. Your body will tell you what it needs.

Keeping you in prayer.

--------------------
Wishing You Showers Of Blessings!
Lyme since Fall 1983 = Diagnosed Summer 2008
IV Rocephin 7 weeks Stopped due to drug fever
Now doxycycline
"For I know the plans I have for you...plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11

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sixgoofykids
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Yes, I agree, lift what you can. I could not lift as much when I was sick. Could not do as many reps either. I naturally had to lighten, but I still lifted what I could lift, to failure.

Some days I was so sick my husband would come home and get me out of bed to take me to the gym. There were a couple times we walked in the door, I lifted one set of one exercise, and we turned around and went home ... enough for that day .... better than having stayed in bed all day.

I lifted to my limit. What's important is taking a day off in between workout days. Also, not doing cardio if your stamina doesn't allow. I used to almost chant in my head, "Die bugs die," when I was working out.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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coltman
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesNYC:
Weight lifting is ANAEROBIC! You won't overtrain not matter how heavy you lift!

umm this is very false.
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richedie
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You can overtrain with weights easily! I am not going to get into a debate though. [Smile]

Weight Lifting and sprints ae examples of anaerobic exercise.

I lifted yesterday and my biggest problem right now has been my left arm - painful joints all around there, elbow, shoulder and wrist. The shoulder is killing me. I get sharp pains if I move my shoulder the wrong way.

What about these infections can cause that!?
After doing shoulders and chest yesterday...my shoulder is much worse! Yikes!

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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JamesNYC
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Rich,

You can't overtrain to the point that lifting heavy weights becomes AEROBIC! Anaerobic exercise uses a different energy system to power muscles.

Lyme attacks connective tissue and causes inflammation. So, basically, tendonitis.

As I said earlier, let the way you feel be your guide. If it hurts don't do it. If it feels good, go for it.

Anyway, that's my advice.

When I'm feeling good, I don't want to leave the gym, lifting energizes me. When I'm having a weak day, I get more fatigued with each exercise and I just want to stop.

I've been feeling good in recent weeks! [Smile]

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JamesNYC
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Coltman:

Really? What is false? Please read this from Wikipedia:

Anaerobic exercise is exercise intense enough to trigger anaerobic metabolism. It is used by athletes in non-endurance sports to promote strength, speed and power and by body builders to build muscle mass.

Muscles trained using anaerobic exercise develop differently as compared to aerobic exercise, leading to greater performance in short duration, high intensity activities, which last from mere seconds up to a maximum anaerobic metabolic contribution at about 2 minutes

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coltman
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesNYC:

Really? What is false? Please read this from Wikipedia:

Part about it not causing overtraining. If you lift seriously (not just biceps curls but compound exercises) it is very intense activity.

quote:

You can't overtrain to the point that lifting heavy weights becomes AEROBIC! Anaerobic exercise uses a different energy system to power muscles.

It has nothing to do with "becoming aerobic" its about the recovery of organism after stress (which exercise is) it happens even for normal ,healthy people - you cant do intense programs non stop for long period of time. You start stalling and even regressing. Typically if you lift seriously you plan your training cycles (3 months cycles are typical) to avoid that phenomenomen and having short break in between

Any impairement to hormonal balance -especially sex hormones, adrenals and thyroid make it very hard to train productively.You never properly recover

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richedie
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James, I totally understand...trust me. I am a fitness and nutrition junky...I know this stuff.

My point is that you can overtrain lifting weights to the point that it impacts your immune system. Your body needs time to rebuild muscle. If you lifted heavy every day...hitting the same muscles....you would overtrain is my point. That is an extreme example. [Smile]

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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sixgoofykids
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Perhaps when you're weightlifting you are getting more oxygen to the muscles (blood flow). Or perhaps it's heating up the muscles. Either way, you are most likely killing bugs there which causes the herx reaction.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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richedie
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I guess my point is that weight lifting taxes the body. If you lift heavy and hard, your body has to rebuild muscle. I was concerned this could get in the way of fighting infection.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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sixgoofykids
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I always did what I could. Of course, you're lifting heavier because your a guy, but I always lifted three sets, shoot for 8-12 reps, lift to failure. I'm better from the Lyme. I always felt that it helped me. BUT, you do need to always take a day off in between. The rest is more important than ever.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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TheCrimeOfLyme
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Richedie:

I started exercising last year to hopefully get rid of the last of my symptoms and get on with a normal life ( not to mention lose some of the 40+ lbs I put on since lyme).

I FELT GREAT, and I do mean great. I felt like I was finally making a dent in my symptoms. The problem was, I was never a person that exercised and I had never needed to for weight loss... so I ever so slightly didn't know what I was doing.

I let my pretty buff son show me what to do. He showed me lifting, so I did that and the exercise bike. It didn't take long for me to feel good, but it also didn't take too too long for me to realize one day that I had inadvertently "ripped" my forearms and upper legs. I looked like a man [Smile]

But the bottom line is a felt good. I stopped exercising mainly because I wasn't losing weight but yet had gained a TON of muscle in all the areas a 5 foot 9 woman shouldn't have them.

I quickly began to feel like crap again, so I have taken up lifting once again. I don't care if I come up with Hulk arms- I feel I was very close to ridding this disease.

--------------------
You want your life back? Take it.

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Chronic Triathlete
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Richedie,
I'm a runner and coach with Lyme. I can't speak specifically to lifting heavy since my off-season weight training is more low weight/high reps. However, on the topic of exercise I can say that it's been very helpful for me.

I wrote a post on my blog about incorporating running into lyme recovery. Maybe some of the concepts can be applied to your lifting:

http://chronictriathlete.com/wordpress/training-with-lyme-disease-part-1-focus-on-today-train-for-tomorrow

I've made other comments about exercise here on LymeNet. Look up my post through my profile. You can also contact me through my website if you wanna talk more.

/CT

--------------------
10.24.07 Sick
03.31.08 Diagnosed IGeneX WB with Bb
04.08.09 Fry Bart

Updated 02.06.10 On an ABX break since July 09, gluten-free, lots of exercise.

My blog: http://www.chronictriathlete.com/wordpress

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sutherngrl
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Well consider yourself lucky if you are able to run or even walk for that matter. I tried walking on my treadmill for 10 minutes. It felt so good I went 15. I was literally laid up for 8 straight days and haven't felt as good since and that was weeks ago.

Now I am trying ever so slightly bouncing on my rebounder. I can barely do that for 2 minutes at a time.

I do think that whatever you can do in the way of exercise, whether it be walking, lifting weights or barely bouncing on a rebounder, has to be better than doing nothing. My 2 minutes on the rebounder gets my heart rate up slightly and hopefully helps get oxygen to move through my body.

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richedie
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Thanks everyone.

The hardest thing for me as with most of you is the intense pain. I just want to curl up and die some days. I went to the gym today and still can't do any pushing movements other than some seated chest press machines and Hamer Strength machines...

I miss the free weights but the pain is way to horrible if I even attempt. Feels like I am being stabbed in the shoulder at times...

Rich

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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glm1111
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Just putting my 2 cents in here. 3 yrs after I collapsed in 1983, I started martial arts training and some weight lifting and continued it on and off over the yrs.

I walked a lot when I could, but if I over did it, I would get totally wiped out and it would put me to bed for weeks.

Nothing really helped until I started getting rid of these infections. I feel for you Rich. I find walking to still be the best.

Adrenal support for me was imperative. Pantothentic acid (b-5) and salt/c helped my adrenals a lot and allowed me to do more. Hope things get better for you,

Gael

--------------------
PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW
RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS*

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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
I guess my point is that weight lifting taxes the body. If you lift heavy and hard, your body has to rebuild muscle. I was concerned this could get in the way of fighting infection.

It absolutely can. It happened to me.

To comment on the other point: Overtraining is very real, and -- assuming adequate nutrition -- the primary reason why most hard-training people in the gym never make any progress. With heavy training, as Coltman said, you are stressing the body very hard, particularly the CNS, which in turn will knock the hormones out of whack.

In my opinion, it is a very bad idea to do extended weight training when trying to recover from Lyme. It is particularly important to NEVER train to failure. Do only what you can do comfortably, or even a bit less.

This is one of the reasons, I believe, that I got so sick.

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richedie
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quote:
Originally posted by nomoremuscles:
quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
I guess my point is that weight lifting taxes the body. If you lift heavy and hard, your body has to rebuild muscle. I was concerned this could get in the way of fighting infection.

It absolutely can. It happened to me.

To comment on the other point: Overtraining is very real, and -- assuming adequate nutrition -- the primary reason why most hard-training people in the gym never make any progress. With heavy training, as Coltman said, you are stressing the body very hard, particularly the CNS, which in turn will knock the hormones out of whack.

In my opinion, it is a very bad idea to do extended weight training when trying to recover from Lyme. It is particularly important to NEVER train to failure. Do only what you can do comfortably, or even a bit less.

This is one of the reasons, I believe, that I got so sick.

Well, while going through this...I have still been going to failure on exercises where I can. Maybe I'll take it down a notch and just do a maintenance routine...something like 10-12 reps but not to failure so I'll have to lower the poundages.

For instance, I was doing dumbell rows today with 95 lb dumbells to failre. Probably not good right now. Funny, I have no problems on pulling movements other than some grip strength in my right arm, but forget about pushing movements.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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nomoremuscles
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Bill Pearl, one of the greatest bodybuilders ever, used to say always keep a rep or two in the tank. I think that's good advice, particularly for Lymies. Most of the BBers of the 40's and 50's, before AAS were so widespread, used to train in that manner -- very heavy and hard, but rarely to failure, and always with an eye to recovery.

Back when I was training, I made my best gains when I learned to cut back my training intensity a notch. I envy you still being able to train, 95 lb DB rows no less! I can't do a single BB row with an empty bar.

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richedie
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Nomore muscles, I feel your pain man...wish I could give you some of what I still have left.

How long have you been sick?

I agree with what you and Bill would say as well. However, I found many times if I needed to get to the next level I had to go to failure in order to grow and get to the next level.

One problem now to complicate things is sleep. Some nights I'll get 9 hours, other nights I barely get any sleep. Some of this is due to I can't turn off my mind or the pain in my left arm and hip, feet, etc. Sleeping on my sore shoulder is not easy.

It is hard to get comfy. I need to start forcing myself to go to bed very early to play it safe.

Goodness I can't take the pain any longer. I took a little handful of Motrin this morning and it did nothing. My left arm feels like it has been beaten with a bat.

[ 10-09-2009, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: richedie ]

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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richedie
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This is such a confusing topic. I know not exercising is not good when fighting this disease....but exercising could also be bad....depending on the situation.

I have backed off the super heavy weights and am making sure I have fuel/reps left in the tank. Certain exercises like any pushing movement I have stopped due to pain, feels like my should has a knife in it when I do shoulder or chest presses.

Luckily I can still do some pushups or lighter seated machine presses, no free weights.

I keep feeling like I should put thie left arm in a sling and give it a rest for a month....but how can that help with an underlying disease!?

Ugh, too much to handle. I think I might buck up and do a light workout today and then sit in the hottub for 15 minutes.

The aerobic thing Dr. B talks about is confusing. Why does Dr. S in Maryland have patients who got well with heavy running and aerobics, while Dr. B says no way!

I thought these organisms do not survive well in heavily oqygenated environments? That would make me believe aerobic exercise is good, but he says no. So confused. That would mean, no walking as well!

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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aMomWithHope
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I, like Richedie, am confused about the whole aerobic and nonaerobic issue and ask the same question: if the Bb dies with oxygen, isn't doing aerobics a good thing and the better choice?

I've been trying to get my 12 year old out everyday to walk so that her muscles don't atrophy as well as to get oxygen in her, but now I'm wondering if this is a bad thing.

I've also been thinking she should start a light weight lifting program because the Plaquenil info states that this med can cause muscle deterioration.

Is a weight program safe for a child? I was thinking something very simple and slow, like 1-pound weights for very slow 8-10 repetitions and only one set. Does this sound safe?

If only nonaerobic exercise is what is important, and again, I'm not sure what nonaerobic exercise brings to the body, what constitutes nonaerobic exercise, besides weightlifting? Rebounder? Yoga? Anything else? Should I be bringing her to physical therapy? She would love that--not!

Very interesting topic--thanks for posting this.

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aMomWithHope
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Oh, and where does one buy a rebounder or is it just a mini trampoline? I thought I read somewhere that there is a specific difference between the two, but I may be remembering wrong.

Thanks!

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nomoremuscles
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Hi Richedie,

I feel for you. I know what you are going through, as I went through the exact same thing about ten or twelve years ago. I think my mistake was trying to maintain a very intense training regimen while sick with Lyme. I believe that the level of intensity at which I trained, even though well below what had been normal, knocked down my immunity and drove the little suckers deep into my muscles.

As of now, my muscles are so weak that I cannot take care of myself without help. Many normal household tasks are beyond me. I think that I should have been more concerned with getting better, than with squatting with lots of plates on the bar. At this point I would be happy if I could simply squat down and get up again without a week of post-exertional malaise and neuro problems. Not to mention cramping and spasming

If I were you I would not quit working out. Just do what you're doing: keep it short of failure and keep an eye on volume and frequency so that you don't get overtrained, and suffer immune consequences. If you feel yourself getting stronger and you feel healthy, then you can always try adding a bit more. But if not, cut back. Listen to your body and not your ego. I wish I had. It sounds like you know yourself pretty well and know what you need. So you are already ahead of the game.

As to aerobics, if you can do them comfortably -- key word: comfortably -- I would. Whether that is a walk or something more depends on your body and health.

Best

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seekhelp
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SG, we can't have the same diseases obviously. It's just not possibly when considering the impact physical exercise has on each one of us. That's why regular docs laugh at the Lyme diagnosis and would even more hearing the crazy universe of variances just from the posters here on LN.

I'm not a believer a bacteria affects us all differently. I do believe multiple bacteria/parasites could though. [Smile]

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JamesNYC
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Seeks,

It is a strange disease indeed.

Ever since I've had lyme I was able to weight train/body build. Even when I was barely able to think straight, and wanted to sleep 23 hours a day. I would have productive workouts and basically never went down in strength. That goes back to '83.

I actually thought that is what kept me from the debilitation that others have suffered.

It was only in the last 5 years, when I got babs, did my workouts suffer. I would work out, then next workout I would have a 35% drop in strength. During those times I wouldn't have any enthusiasm for working out. I thought this was due to depression, or lack of sleep, or over-working, etc.

My LLMD made the connection to babs. The persistent anemic state makes it much harder for the muscles to recover. As I get better from babs, my workouts have returned mostly to normal.

That some of us can continue to exercise while others are debilitated may give credence to idea that different strains cause different symptoms.

James

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JamesNYC
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Coltman

quote:
Part about it not causing overtraining. If you lift seriously (not just biceps curls but compound exercises) it is very intense activity.

quote:
It has nothing to do with "becoming aerobic" its about the recovery of organism after stress (which exercise is) it happens even for normal ,healthy people - you cant do intense programs non stop for long period of time.

NO WRONG! I was SPECIFICALLY REFERRING to DR B's guidelines which say not to train aerobically. Weight training is ANAEROBIC. And cannot become aerobic.

So YES IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH NOT BECOMING AEROBIC as it pertains to the guidelines. I was NOT referring to whether weight lifting could be done to the point of detriment.

You take a contrarian position without understanding the original point.

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richedie
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So Dr. B says no aerobics.....yet Dr. S in Maryland has had much success with people performing aerobics. Which is it?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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seekhelp
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Many LLMDs don't listen to much of Dr B's advice anyways so why take the exercise part as gold? THey are just 'guidelines' right?
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Keebler
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-
An essential consideration is that in the presence of infection, aerobics can be damaging to the heart:
-----------------

http://www.ott.zynet.co.uk/polio/lincolnshire/library/uk/post-me.html


[Post-polio expert] Dr. [Richard] Bruno points out that physical over-activity is the biggest cause of post-polio symptoms. [3] (See Dr. Bruno's "Fainting and Fatigue" in the Spring 1996 CFIDS Chronicle, page 37.)


EXCERPT:

when mice infected with Coxsackie B3 were forced to swim in a warm pool, the virulence of the virus was drastically augmented.

In fact, viral replication was augmented 530 times. This did horrendous things to the animals' hearts.

We all know that to play squash with the flu can lead to heart attacks. Much the same danger can be courted by undertaking hard exercise with M.E. [what CFS is called in the UK.]

. . .

In 1988, Reyes and his colleagues exercised mice suffering from Coxsackie B3 myocarditis -- inflammation of the heart muscle caused by the virus.

They showed that the effect of exercise on the production of the neurohormones which regulate immune response and inflammation led to an increase in susceptibility to Coxsackie virus infections -- the host response was altered in favor of the virus. . . . .


. . . Cont'd at link above.

=====================

As well, the adrenal dysfunction that often plagues lyme patients must be considered on an individual case. If a patient has severe adrenal exhaustion, aerobics can be damaging from that perspective:

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

See page 4 where Dr. Burrascano describes a bit about the considerations of the dysfunction with the HYPOTHALAMIC-PITUITARY AXIS

There are other authors of adrenal dysfunction books that go into greater explanation of the extreme care required as someone with adrenal damage undertakes exercise and conditioning program.
-

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richedie
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How do you know if you have adrenal exhaustion???

I have little to no fatigue issues. Now, my problems are pretty much all pain based, some tingling, etc.

That is why I still drink a cup of coffee in the morning, because I never considered myself to have adrenal exhaustion.

So, what program does one follow?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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sixgoofykids
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
So Dr. B says no aerobics.....yet Dr. S in Maryland has had much success with people performing aerobics. Which is it?

Dr. B only says no cardio IF your stamina can't take it. So, I would say it's an individual decision. There were times I could do cardio, and there were times I could not. Listening to your body is key.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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coltman
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
How do you know if you have adrenal exhaustion???

Cortisol test

quote:

I have little to no fatigue issues. Now, my problems are pretty much all pain based, some tingling, etc.
So, what program does one follow?

I dunno , man. Methinks if you can exercise do whatever feels good. Pain is kinda disturbing though -considering you were on levaquin and such. -you sure its not tendonitis?
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richedie
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quote:
Originally posted by sixgoofykids:
quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
So Dr. B says no aerobics.....yet Dr. S in Maryland has had much success with people performing aerobics. Which is it?

Dr. B only says no cardio IF your stamina can't take it. So, I would say it's an individual decision. There were times I could do cardio, and there were times I could not. Listening to your body is key.
Hi, no....he actually says no cardio to everyone due to the T cell suppression.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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richedie
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coltman,

Why do you say it is disturbing? Many people I know with lyme and other infections have terrible pain. It is sort of to be expected, I guess. I have the typical carpal tunnel like symptoms, elbow pain, muscle pain, shoulder, back pain, etc. The pain was there long before levaquin, it has just continued to get worse and worse till I want to cut my arm off!!!! I hate it.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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Lymeorsomething
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I lift every week and wouldn't think of stopping. It's good for the mind and good for the body. Just can't overdo it.

--------------------
"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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coltman
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quote:

Why do you say it is disturbing? Many people I know with lyme and other infections have terrible pain. It is sort of to be expected, I guess. I have the typical carpal tunnel like symptoms, elbow pain, muscle pain, shoulder, back pain, etc. The pain was there long before levaquin, it has just continued to get worse and worse till I want to cut my arm off!!!! I hate it.

Problem is pain is what generally allows you stop in time before you do damage. If you feel pain all the time and lift trough you might not recognize when you need to take it easy.

2nd levaquin can exacerbate tendon issues - very dangerous when lifting.

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richedie
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Hi, I knew about the levaquin......but I was fine when I stopped levaquin. It wasn't till about a month or two later that the shoulder and elbow started getting much worse. So, levaquin could make an already problematic tendon, worse. I see.

It has been about 6 months since I did Levaquin.

On the pain, many of us have pain and continue to workout, walk, etc through the pain. If I stopped.....I'd be in bed all day.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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coltman
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quote:

On the pain, many of us have pain and continue to workout, walk, etc through the pain. If I stopped.....I'd be in bed all day.

I dunno if you ever had serious tendinitis but you definitely wouldn't be able to workout. I had it in my elbow and I was barely able to use the arm. If you get tendon troubles its not fun.

If you get tendon rupture in legs - you will have to use crutches if you lucky (wheelchair otherwise). So thats what I am saying about being careful.

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trigal2
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I was a long distance runner/triathlete before I got lyme and contiue to run - when I can.

I do have more post run soreneess and fatigue then I did prior to having lyme.

I think everyone is so very different. If you were not a runner or a lifter or athlete before you got lyme then yeah, that stuff might be out of the question.

It is all relative. I run only about 50% capacity right now - so for me 25 miles a week is very low compared to my pre-lyme days of 50 mile weeks.

On days where I can't run I hike, on days when I can't hike I stretch, and then on days where I can't stretch I just do some deep breathing while laying in bed herxing.

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richedie
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Thanks coltman, so what do you recommend? It feels like terrible pain in my wrists, throbbing and deep pain in my forearm (sometimes both), terrible shoulder pain. I can barely sleep on that side at night. I can use these joints, but the shoulder especially....I have to be careful as I can get stabbing pain if I do the wrong thing.

trigal, are you worried about what Dr. B says concerning no aerobics?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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coltman
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:
Thanks coltman, so what do you recommend? It feels like terrible pain in my wrists, throbbing and deep pain in my forearm (sometimes both), terrible shoulder pain. I can barely sleep on that side at night. I can use these joints, but the shoulder especially....I have to be careful as I can get stabbing pain if I do the wrong thing.

One of the safest form of exercise is swimming. You can try that. You can essentially make any exercise anaerobic by doing short sprints (like say 50/100 yards sprints with slow ,relaxed swimming in between) - that technique is called HIIT (google it if you dont know ).

But please do consult your doc regarding pain and safety

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richedie
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I know swimming is good....but there is too much pain in my left arm to swim. I tried.

HIIT you say? That is actually one of the best techniques for weight loss...better than steady state aerobics....burns more calories due to the intensity. I have done the same with running....quick bursts followed by slow walking inbetween.

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Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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richedie
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Well, now I pretty much need my wife to help me get dressed. My arms are getting worse. Can't reach behind my back, over my head, push anything, barely lift my daughter.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
richedie
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Do any of you get stabbing joint pain if you try to lift something or move a joint? Mine does not vary...the pain in my shoulder, elbow, and wrist are always ther - always. It never has good days. WHY!?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
richedie
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Well I had to take a break due to pain and doing more moderate weight but it is killing me psychologically. I like to go full bore and shoot for the stars. My goal was to gain 10 lbs this year and 10 lbs next year adn work toward a Master's class bodybuilding competition. I might have to put that on hold a bit. I hate this disease! If I don't get better, I am going for it anyway!

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LAXlover
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I used to work out 4-5 times a week. I gave it up for the last6 months or so because I just didn't have enough energy. Lately, as I am beginning to feel better and can clean the house again, I am wanting to go back to the gym.

I brought this up with my LLMD who is in Dr. S office. She said I could give it a try, but if I "pay" for it for a couple days, back off and go slower.

richedie - I'd be happy to give you my extra 20!!!!

Best,

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LAXlover

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richedie
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I'll take yer 20!

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:

My fear is overtraining since I like to lift heavy.

How can you lift weights with that terrible arm pain?? I'm worried you'll really injure your arm.

I think walking is a great way to build up the body! Our Lymenet exercise group:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/25710?#000002

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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sixgoofykids
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Maybe work on maintenance. Your body can only handle so much at a time. You want it to work on healing, not building. You want to workout to maintain and to kill bugs.

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sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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richedie
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The pain goes away in the gym! So, I feel invinsible in the gym, I guess it is due to the endorphines or added blood flow....so it is hard to leave the gym when I feel so good in the gym!

Plus, after being into serious bodybulding building my whole life, it is hard, hard to stop for anything. Hard to explain, it is a huge part of who I am.

I will try to do maintenance but it is tough being on the outside looking in at my friends who are lifting hard and making gains.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
richedie
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Dr. B says light weights and high reps but does not get into specifics. I might take it down to a maintenance phase. So for example the most I would do in the chest prest is 70 lb dumbells for 12reps. Some of the lighter weights I'll go higher to 15 reps. This would be a light to moderate maintenance phase.

However, with any workout, some tissue is being torn down! Keep that in mind.....and will have to be rebuilt or made stronger.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sixgoofykids
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quote:
Originally posted by richedie:

However, with any workout, some tissue is being torn down! Keep that in mind.....and will have to be rebuilt or made stronger.

True with weighlifting, which is perhaps why he says not to do it everyday (which weightlifters know already).

I do Pilates. I know it has the reputation of being for women, though it didn't start out that way. Joseph Pilates worked with men until dancers discovered it.

It's different than weighlifting for several reasons .... one is that it doesn't tear down the muscle, the weight is light and you don't work till failure ... another is that it works the deepest muscles rather than focusing on the superficial muscles .... it also increases flexibility.

Check this out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gel_J5XxcrA (btw, I can do all that stuff, except for the ball thing, I'm not that coordinated).

I'm an instructor and many men are starting to catch on to this workout. It might be something you could add to the mix while you're working on maintenance .... maybe you won't have the left-out feeling if you're doing something fun, new and challenging. My husband owns the videos I posted and uses them when he travels.

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sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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richedie
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And lifting weights more than two dasys in a row is very hard on the CNS as well. I always have a day rest between workouts anyway. However, the way I lift, it takes a good 7 days to recover. My legs can still be sore3-4 days later after a tough workout. Even after light to moderate lunges, I can have soreness many days later.

Dr. B says to do a full body workout every other day with light weights which I assume he means mearly gonig through the motions(very light). That is not maintenance for me, that is losing muscle for me. That is my quandry. I am going to try to keep my current every other day schedule but I am going to do light to moderate weight in the 12-15 range and will do enoguh exercises to fill out an hour.

The Pilates and deepest muscles argument? Transversus abdominus? Multifidus?
I do a lot of core work as well at the end of a workout but I also know that many large body movements recruite large amounts of muscle, including the so called stabilizer muscles of the sline. Squats, deadlifts, etc. I have thought of yoga however......can't afford right now.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sixgoofykids
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Pilates isn't all core work though all the exercises include the core. It is a full body workout like Dr. B recommends, that's why I brought it up.

I certainly don't miss the 3-4 days soreness you talk about, not at all. And my legs are more muscular than they were with that soreness, too.

Yoga is another full body workout, and if it's more attractive to you (or anyone else) than pilates, you might try tapes.

I was just trying to give you other options, not get into an argument of whose exercise is better. Everyone choses their exercises based on their own personal goals.

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sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
richedie
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I know what you mean and appresiate the advice, but I enjoy weight lifting so much I'd be lost without it. Hard to explain. It means as much to me as my music and guitar playing, my tennis and my snowboarding.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
richedie
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I lifted like an animal today. [Smile]

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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