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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Is recovery possible with carbs??

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Author Topic: Is recovery possible with carbs??
RZR
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I am 5'6" and 118 lbs, which looks very thin on me. I can give up sweets, but not bread. I simply cannot keep enough weight on. I am becoming very weak.

I know carbs feed Lyme, but won't ABX kill it?

My LLMD never mentioned diet at all.

Thanks,
Jen

--------------------
Tick bite May 2009
Diagnosed June 2009

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Carbs feed yeast. If you must eat carbs, just be very selective. Stick with whole grains, and make sure you are eating plenty of protein, veggies, & healthy fats at the same time.

I've had to increase the number of meals I eat in order to slow the weight loss. I try for 4-5 meals a day, and it's a chore. But it's better than a raging yeast infection.

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massman
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You may want to access www.westonaprice.com and explore low carb.

Price was a dentist in the '30s that traveled the world and found that the healthiest people ate diets native to their area with lots of fat.

Proteins and fats are essential nutrients and carbs are not. Health care and the media have brainwashed us into fearing fat.

IME those who crave carbs of any type often have yeast.

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txgirl09
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Jennie46,

I'm so glad you asked this! I have the same

build as you, and I've already lost 10 lbs. I

can not lose any more weight, and when I stick

to the diet, I can't keep my weight up. I can

do the sugar free too, but have difficulty with

carbs. My doctor said the same things as

Tabers, avoid the "white stuff". Good Luck!

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Keebler
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Carbs - technically, as intended by nature, complex carbohydrates are great - - but not at all as processed, simple sugars. It's all in the definition. Simple carbs are never okay for anyone.

When you think of carbohydrates, think of kale, chard, spinach . . . cabbage, bok choy, celery . . . bell peppers of all colors . . . those are all good carbs and should be enjoyed in abundance.


My guess is that adrenal support would be excellent to help you avoid the blood sugar drops that cry for bread as a pick-me-up. Try nuts instead of bread.

Are you on good adrenal support supplements?

And, what is your level of magnesium? And fish oil?

Are you getting at least 60 grams of protein a day?


The simple carbohydrates (sugars) in bread are not good for ANYONE to eat, ever. Even many whole wheat breads are high on the glycemic index. Whole GRAIN is the key. However, it's best to avoid gluten.

Gluten could be one reason for lower weight. It can cause malabsorption of vitamins and nutrients from food.

And gluten really does cause a lot of problems for lyme patients. Gluten is in wheat, barley, rye. Any malted product is usually from barley and should be avoided. Many products contain barley malt, so be sure to check labels carefully.


Some people have trouble with oats or corn, too. While oats are best steel-cut or cracked (as with Irish or Scottish) they are not always processed in gluten-free plants. Rolled oats are closer to sugar but even the cracked oats can still too much starch all at once so, if enjoyed in moderation, should be accompanied by protein and fat - and with a good fruit such as few dark berries (without sugar). Never raisins.

Actually, I do best with a breakfast of wild salmon, kale and wild rice (really a grass). Or lentil soup with chicken and veggies. Letting go of the idea that breakfast had to be sweet was the best thing I even did for myself.


But, back to some of the grains - Corn can increase phlegm in sinuses and ears and it's also higher on the glycemic index so it is best avoided unless a small portion is mixed with a lower glycemic grain and LOTS of vegetables.


But, don't fear, there are still plenty of fabulous foods for you to enjoy. Food should be delicious and nourishing.

Seek out Mediterranean foods, spices and seasonings from all over the world, etc.

Low-glycemic, gluten-free grains can be healthy part of your diet, in moderation.

Be absolutely sure, though to totally avoid ALL artificial sweeteners. A healthful choice is STEVIA, directly from a plant.


You need the COMPLEX carbs for your brain cells to function, as well as for other systems of your body to get good energy along with proteins and good fats. All three kinds of food are required by your cells: proteins, fats & COMPLEX carbohydrates.

Complex carbs in the form of vegetables should be the largest part of your diet. Complex carbs, in addition to supplying nutrients and antioxidants that are essential to body, are a vital part of our ability to detox. High fiber (from complex carbs that are low-glycemic) is the best way to get vitamins in and then to move out the toxic by-products of metabolism (and infection) through the colon.

Therefore, a high fiber diet helps the liver do its job better.


In addition to necessary vegetables and low-sugar fruits like dark berries and tart apples, looking to wonderful grains that are gluten-free and have a good amino acid content, this is just for a start:
-----------------------

http://www.quinoa.net/

QUINOA

The makers of Gluten Free:
Ancient Harvest Supergrain Products.


Traditional Quinoa Grain (requires rinsing in a very fine strainer before cooking)

Inca Red Quinoa Grain (requires no rinsing before cooking)

Quinoa Flakes (great for times when stomach is churning)

Quinoa Flour


========================

http://www.marysgonecrackers.com/ns/intro2.php

MARY'S GONE CRACKERS

Mary's Gone Crackers, Inc. is committed to manufacturing the best tasting wheat-free and gluten-free baked goods using the highest quality, organically grown ingredients.


==========================

Used in small amounts, with lots of veggies, protein and good fats, this rice pasta can work on occasion. Trader Joe's also has a brown rice pasta. Penne stands up the best. Remember, though, although it is whole grain, the finer the flour is ground, the higher on the glycemic index.

Whole grains (not ground up) such as quinoa as a side-dish, are lower on the glycemic index. Still, now and then, with care:

---------------

http://tinkyada.com

Tinkyada Rice Pasta - Whole Grain - wheat free / gluten free.
Amazing texture and taste. Kosher certified. Organic items are certified by OCIA.


===========================

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

Treatment Guidelines (2008) - 37 pages

Joseph J. Burrascano, Jr., M.D.


* Page 27 for SUPPORTIVE THERAPY & the CERTAIN ABSOLUTE RULES

Excerpt:

6. Diet must contain generous quantities of high quality protein and be high in fiber and low in fat and carbohydrates - no simple carbohydrates are allowed. Instead, use those with low glycemic index.

. . . .
====================

http://www.glycemicindex.com/

What is the GLYCEMIC INDEX?

=====================

www.celiac.com

All about GLUTEN
-

[ 10-18-2009, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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coltman
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Non complex carbs are bad. Fats(yes fats!) and proteins should be a staple of your diet, not carbs.

Easy way to gain necessary proteins and caloris is using whey protein(preferably with milk) , but there are also formulas usable with water if you are lactose intolerant

I wish they took out all lol/non fat junk in supermarkets and replaced it with low carb versions . - would be a much better option for all. -Carbs are easy to get, its getting good amount of fat and proteins while not getting excess amount of carbs -that what is hard

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Keebler
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If you have enough protein (and that is combined with good veggies and other complex carbs - and good fats) your body will not crave simple carbs.

Also, be sure to have light snacks of nuts, celery, tart apple, etc.


Protein helps our bodies make glutathione and that helps the liver detox . . . protein's amino acids help our brain, our hearts, our muscles, etc., etc., etc.,

Taurine (found mostly in muscle meats) is vital, too. Vegetarians and vegans should consider supplementing taurine, as well as B-12 and L-Carnitine.


Nuts are great. Get to know ALL the types. One of the best things to do first thing after brushing teeth in the morning is to enjoy a few Brazil Nuts. They contain so many fabulous nutrients, especially selenium.

-----------------------

http://icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2006/august/0804.pdf - 20 pages


THE REQUIREMENTS OF PROTEIN & AMINO ACID DURING ACUTE & CHRONIC INFECTION . . .

Anura V. Kurpad - Institute of Population Health & Clinical Research, Bangalore, India 129. Indian J Med Res 124, August 2006, pp 129-148.

Excerpt:

" . . . In general, the amount of EXTRA protein that would appear to be needed is of the order of 20-25 per cent of the recommended intake, for most infections. . . ."


- Full article at link (or google the title if it does not go through).

-

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22dreams
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You may want to look into thyroid issues.

I had the same problem eating lower carb
until diagnosed and treated for Hashimotos--
which isn't gonna show up nec. in conventional thyroid testing (TSH).

Adding whey protein to smoothies helped me a bit. and helps my energy.
It provides additional protein, like Keebler said supplying precursors necessary for glutathione production.

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massman
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Keebler - where is info on carbs needed by brain ?

Studies show the brain works better on fats.
I can search for the studies if you like. One of them was pretty recent.

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RZR
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I had my thyroid checked, and it is fine. I have been thin all my life.

I don't really crave carbs. It's just that I can't keep my weight up without them. I have elevated cholesterol and really can't eat lots of beef. Chicken, salmon, fish, etc. just aren't enough calories to keep my weight up.

Thanks,
Jen

--------------------
Tick bite May 2009
Diagnosed June 2009

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Keebler
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Elevated cholesterol can be from the liver being overwhelmed. Eating more complex carbs will help your liver by supplying more fiber that will absorb toxic by-products.

Chicken, salmon, fish . . . that would not be enough for anyone.

Again, it's all in the definition. Carbohydrates are not the enemy. Nor is fat.

Vegetables are the best. Think of all the colors and try to incorporate them all. A few low-sugar dark berries can be a heavenly treat and supple necessary anti-oxidants for our cells.

Then, in moderation, there are plenty of whole grains that you can eat: Quinoa, millet, buckwheat (really a legume), wild rice (really a grass), many varieties of brown rice and my favorite, Forbidden Chinese BLACK rice. Amaranth, too.

Mixed into a batch of veggies, the whole grains supply good vitamins and help keep blood glucose stable. The ratio of veggies to grain is best about 4:1 or 3:1 - and it's always best not to eat grains alone. Adding veggies and fat is best to have an even better glycemic balance.

Legumes also offer a rich supply of both complex carbs and proteins. And they are low-glycemic. In fact, diabetics are often instructed to eat lentils in order to help keep glucose stable. You don't need a large portion, but with steamed greens and other veggies, even a 1/2 cup of lentils can go a long way.

Notice in Dr. B's guidelines that carbs are included. You need carbs. Just the right ones. Enjoy with great herbs like rosemary or thyme . . . rich seasonings like cumin and turmeric in black beans, etc.

You can enjoy food. You should enjoy food. It may just take a bit of rethinking.

Check out the books: "The Cure is in the Kitchen" - and "A Spoonful of Ginger" - very encouraging.

For a beginning intro to the value of polysaccharides:

http://www.glycoinformation.com/sugars.html

Books: ``Sugars That Heal'' and "Miracle Sugars" (not so much for the product they sell as I don't know about that - but the information in the books about how the body uses good sugars (complex carbs) is eye-opening. d-Ribose is also in this category and it helps many lyme patients with a stable energy.
-

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massman
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Evidence please on why we "need" carbs.

There are NO essential carbs.
There are essential amino acids acids (proteins) and essential fatty acids (fats).

1 gram of carbs = 4 calories
1 gram of far = 10 calories

To maintain or gain weight eating fat is probably easier and more efficient.

The public has been brainwashed about the "dangers" of fat + cholesterol.

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sutherngrl
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I eat carbs because I am down to 104 pounds. I am careful though. I don't over do it and I stay away from pure sugar. Doesn't seem to be a problem for me. I actually feel better when I eat carbs. Gives me a little boost of energy.
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Keebler
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As the public has been brainwashed in the dangers of carbs because of the focus on the simple sugars rather than the complex carbs.


Carbohydrates are essential to life. It's not like the term "essential fatty acid" but, nonetheless, the brain requires sugars (as well as fats and amino acids). For quick thinking and good adrenal support, carbs supply energy.

The bowels require fiber from carbohydrates. The bowels cannot work with just protein and fats. The bulk from carbohydrates is essential - meaning necessary, required.

From carbohydrates come so many things essential to health: vitamins and other nutrients; antioxidants; fiber, etc.
-

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massman
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Where is your info from ?
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Keebler
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Glucose is required by the body. Glucose is just one kind of sugar that comes from carbohydrates. There are many kinds of sugars that come from carbohydrates. These complex sugars supply food to our cells.

However, as mentioned over and over, the term "sugar" or "glucose" or even "carb" is not defined as a box of twinkies but as food in its natural and complex state.

The body requires protein, fats and carbohydrates. Leaving out any one of those - or getting the balance wrong - can cause problems. As well, be sure to add water and mix with a smile.

---------------
3/4 of the way down the page:

http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/maderbio6e/outlines/ch49out.mhtml

Biology (Textbook by Sylvia S. Mader, Sixth Edition)

Chapter 49 Outline and Terms

49.2. Human Endocrine System . . .

Section F. Pancreas Produces Two Hormones . . .

2. All body cells utilize glucose; therefore, its level must be closely regulated. . . .

-------------------------

[ 10-18-2009, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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WildCondor
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Just don't eat sugar, and fruit juice, junk food, ice cream, and white flour garbage like donuts and you'll be fine. Stuff like sweet potatoes, whole grain bread, vegetables, etc. is totally fine. [Smile]
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gemofnj
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yes, also include olive oil, almonds, organic greek yogurt, cottage cheese, avocados, complex carbs such as brown rice, steel cut oatmeal, kidney, cannellini beans, garbonzo are great.

here is a link to some good foods to add into low carb diet:
http://www.candida-yeast-explained.com/candida-food-list.html

good luck!

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Keebler
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In addition to nuts, when I need balanced energy to get a meal together - or just for improved endurance - I find these two products very helpful. You can click on "supplement facts" for each of these links:

----------------------

BioGenesis Bio-Cleanse Functional Food (has vitamins and liver support all together)

http://www.needs.com/product/BioGenesis_Bio_Cleanse_Functional_Food_21/b_BioGenesis

=================

There are several good greens powders on the market. Even plain Spirulina can be a nice nutrient support. One powder that I like is:


GREEN VIBRANCE by Vibrant Health

http://www.vitacost.com/Vibrant-Health-Green-Vibrance-Powder-12-1-oz
-

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cantgiveupyet
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Dont forget coconut oil...it is excellent to cook with...and will help add good fat and calories.

I feel best off gluten and eating veggies, protein and brown rice. I do struggle with gaining weight...and will add more fat or eat more meals. When i was cheating eating gluten...I would gain weight temporarily but then loose even more a few days later.

--------------------
"Say it straight simple and with a smile."

"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet,
But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."

-Schopenhauer

pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg

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massman
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Keebler - that is just a very very basic outline.

The Bible is "Guyton'a Physiology".

I have studied foods etc for 40 years from many sources. Veggies are generally good food but not essential.

Essential means gotta have them or you will DIE !
No protein = DEAD
No fats = DEAD
No carbs = still alive

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RZR
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quote:
Originally posted by WildCondor:
Just don't eat sugar, and fruit juice, junk food, ice cream, and white flour garbage like donuts and you'll be fine. Stuff like sweet potatoes, whole grain bread, vegetables, etc. is totally fine. [Smile]

Great news....many thanks!

Jen

--------------------
Tick bite May 2009
Diagnosed June 2009

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by WildCondor:
Just don't eat sugar, and fruit juice, junk food, ice cream, and white flour garbage like donuts and you'll be fine. Stuff like sweet potatoes, whole grain bread, vegetables, etc. is totally fine. [Smile]

Exactly. Go for whole grain or go gluten free.

Stay away from white stuff! Eat nuts! ( or be nuts! .. just kidding! )

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Hoosiers51
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If you have viruses....don't eat too many nuts without either taking an L-lysine supplement, or eating plenty of yogurt, milk, cheese, chicken, or other foods high in Lysine. (see link below)

The problem with some of these healthy foods is that they are high in Arginine, which feeds viruses.

You will need to tip the balance, so that your diet is more dominated by Lysine than Arginine.

I know I am getting kind of technical, but I just want to be sure those with viruses realize this. Things like oatmeal, nuts, and seeds will help viruses thrive without enough Lysine.

I wish someone would have told me that "back when."

http://www.herpes.com/Nutrition.shtml

There is a chart on there that will help you. Good luck!

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Hoosiers51
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The other thing to know is that if you do cheat and eat bad carbs, do it on a full stomach, not an empty stomach.

The last thing you want is carbs in your GI, without any fat or protein too.

So if I eat carbs, like a baked potato, I'll drink a glass of whole milk, or put organic butter on it, so that it's not just pure carbs hitting my tummy.

Same with if I cheat and do something really bad like have a piece of pizza. I will ensure there's enough fat to balance all the carbs.

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txgirl09
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Thanks for all the great info! I didn't think about the protein shakes....I'll have to make those.
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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosiers51:
The other thing to know is that if you do cheat and eat bad carbs, do it on a full stomach, not an empty stomach.

Right.

I came back to say that you can probably get well, but you run the risk of getting yeast. That in itself can be a huge problem. Avoid at all costs.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Originally posted by massman:
Keebler - where is info on carbs needed by brain ?

Studies show the brain works better on fats.
I can search for the studies if you like. One of them was pretty recent.

Brain runs on only glucose or ketones, no?
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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Originally posted by massman:
1 gram of carbs = 4 calories
1 gram of far = 10 calories


1 gram fat = 9 cal.
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coltman
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:


Carbohydrates are essential to life. It's not like the term "essential fatty acid" but, nonetheless, the brain requires sugars (as well as fats and amino acids). For quick thinking and good adrenal support, carbs supply energy.

The bowels require fiber from carbohydrates. The bowels cannot work with just protein and fats. The bulk from carbohydrates is essential - meaning necessary, required.


The problem almost is no matter what you make your diet of you will get enough carbs. IF you make your goal to get enough proteins and fats from food -that food will contain enough carbs.

Granted thats from the point of view of 2000-3000 calories diet.

When I was lifting I needed 3000 -4000 calories a day. And I tell you carbs are never problems there, I always struggled not to take too many carbs while still getting enough proteins and fat. And in the end I still couldnt make from the food available and my carbs were alwasy 125% -150% over the ideal ratio

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Amanda
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My own personal experience has been that I eat carbs like brown rice and fruits, and sometimes the really bad ones (like M&M's or other candy).

And for over two years I have taken 2 to 3 abx at a time, plus abx shots. No yeast problems. I am careful to watch for symptoms. If I even think I might be having a yeast problem, then I back off all carbs.

Be a good idea to learn the symptoms of yeast, and if you notice them, then immediately go on ver low carb diet and talk to doc about anti fungals.

--------------------
"few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain

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massman
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ooops ! Rounded 9 up to 10 ! Guess I was - yeow - 10% off !

I am saying the brain runs BETTER on fat.

And for a quickie reference I got from Wikkieepeedeeya:

The brain, in particular, relies heavily on ketone bodies as a substrate for lipid synthesis and for energy during times of reduced food intake.

Ketones have been described as "magic" in their ability to increase metabolic efficiency, while decreasing production of free radicals, the damaging byproducts of normal metabolism.

Ketone bodies are relevant to neurological diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease,[4] and the heart and brain operate 25% more efficiently using ketones as a source of energy.[5]

Research has also shown ketones play a role in reducing epileptic seizures with the so-called high-fat, near-zero carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet. [1]

"HEART AND BRAIN OPERATE 25% MORE EFFICIENTLY"

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nomoremuscles
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I was just being picky with the 9 cals. Sorry.

But the brain needs glucose or ketones as far as I know. It cannot use anything else for fuel. Right? So if it cannot use fat, even if fat is a preferred fuel source (which I would agree that it is), it still needs to be converted into something usable by the brain.

I don't think there is one across the board diet that is right for all. Different people metabolize foods differently. Some do really great on high carb diets, provided the carbs are unrefined. Some don't. I have known people who fall each way.


The diet that comes closest, in my opinion, would be somewhere around 30-40% carbs, with those coming primarily from green and fibrous vegetables, which for most Americans is near impossible to accomplish. That would be pounds and pounds of greens a day.

When healthy, and working out hard, I seemed to do best with approx 35-40% p, 35-40% c, and 20-30%f. Whereas, currently I eat only meats and green vegetables. But if I were working out, trying to gain muscular weight, I would need to drop my fat intake a bit and add some carbs, as I can't train hard enough without them.

But of course this is moot, as the closest I come to exercise is walking from living room to kitchen.

So I believe what Keebler is saying is right. If most carbs are gotten from green and fibrous vegetables, throw in a handful of fruits, well then that is a wonderful thing.

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Keebler
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-
The Ketogenic Diet is not a safe diet for every one. There are risks to that. It works better for children than for adults but, even then, it is not something to be taken lightly. Each person needs to have a physical work-up first by a team specializing into the Ketogenic Diet.

I did extensive research on this and determined that my body really needs all the nutrients offered by vegetables and low-sugar fruits.

Ten years ago and again, as recently as two years ago, I spoke with the top doctor in the country who coaches in the Ketogenic Diet and was told it would not be safe for me. They told me both times that I should have vegetables and fruits.

For some with seizures, the sugars from complex carbs actually help reduce seizure activity. It was determined that I fit that category.

For anyone with porphyria, the sugars from complex carbs are required to help keep porphyrins in the safe range.

Many lyme patients also have excess porphryins as a result of stress (or deficiency) of the Cytochrome P-450 pathway. For someone with excess porphyrins, a "no carb" diet can be very harmful. Excessive proteins (without complex carbs to balance) can also cause problems when porphyrins climb high.


So, for anyone thinking of going "no carbs" be very careful - monitoring is required by a health professional who knows the Ketogenic Diet and how it affects all functions of the body. Also be sure they know everything there is to know about all kinds of porphryia, including secondary porphyria that can bother those who have chronic infections that affect the liver.


Still, for people with lots of toxins in the body (as lyme can produce), in order to move toxins out through the bowels, a high fiber diet is really helpful. For those who have been so sick for so long, the vitamins and other nutrients in a wide variety of foods is vital to the health of all our cells.

The Ketogenic Diet can be remarkable in certain circumstances, again, mostly for children with irretractable epilepsy under close observation for limited time periods.

We also have to ask ourselves what drives the need for deprivation? Food is a wonderful, nutritious and useful gift - to be enjoyed. I am not the first to say "Let Food be thy Medicine" (with gratitude to Hippocrates for that one).
-

[ 10-18-2009, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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massman
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OK - done wasting my time.

One more question though - how many patients have you treated ? 1, 6, 600, 6000 ?

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nomoremuscles
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You are using "Wikkieepeedeeya" as a source and you're getting uppity?
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hezzer926
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i was on a very strict low carb diet and i went to the nutritionist because i was just sooo tired... i thought it was due to the many lyme symptoms.. when i started adding carbs to my meals, such as whole grain bread or rice cakes and eating more often with fats and proteins, my energy was much better.. no more low dips
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lymeHerx001
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I CANT EAT ANY CABS, NO ONE HAS AN ANSER

IM SICK OF EATING NOTHING BUT EGGS FOR 5 YEARS NOW!!!!!!

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KS
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I didn't have any restrictions in my diet and got well.

Originally I too was very thin and weak from being so sick and I feel it was more important to try to keep my strength up.

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massman
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Used Wikkie cause it was a quickie.
Many think it is a reliable source.

Rice cakes are close to pure sugar !
They have the "image" of them being healthy but their glycemic index (how fast they get into your system) is really high.

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Amanda
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Rice can not possibly be that bad. The healthiest cultures in the world are mostly asian, and they eat rice every day.

The key is balance, and eating high quality foods. If yeast is a problem, then yes, you need to limit carbs and sugar.

For God sake people, many of us are already under so much stress from the disease, fighting for treatment, complicated med regiems, financial burdons, finding a doctor, and the last thing someone needs to hear about is some self proclaimed " diet prophet" preaching about a diet which might for some people do more harm than good.

If carbs were so bad, then I would be dead by now. I eat candy almost 5 days a week, Plus rice, fish, fruits and vegetables (including potatoes and yams)

EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND WHAT IS A PROBLEM FOR ONE PERSON MAY NOT BE FOR ANOTHER.

Try trial and error and find what works for you....Try adding some fruit or whole grains and see how you feel. Or try going to a licsenced Nutritionist for diet ideas.

--------------------
"few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain

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ChuckG
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Wikipedia

quote:

Ketone bodies can be used for energy. Ketone bodies are transported from the liver to other tissues, where acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate can be reconverted to acetyl-CoA to produce energy, via the citric acid cycle.
The heart gets little energy from ketone bodies; it uses mainly fatty acids.
The brain gets its energy from ketone bodies when insufficient glucose is available (e.g., when fasting). In the event of low blood glucose, most other tissues have additional energy sources besides ketone bodies (such as fatty acids), but the brain does not. After the diet has been changed to lower blood glucose for 3 days, the brain gets 30% of its energy from ketone bodies. After about 40 days, this goes up to 70% (during the initial stages the brain does not burn ketones, since they are an important substrate for lipid synthesis in the brain). In time the brain reduces its glucose requirements from 120g to 40g per day.

I am tempted to elaborate on this. Taint worth the time.
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RZR
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Wow! So much info. Sorry, I didn't mean to start a riot! LOL!

Jen

--------------------
Tick bite May 2009
Diagnosed June 2009

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massman
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A self proclaimed "diet prophet" that has been a natural health pro for almost 24 years ?

What does one eat to get into ketosis ? Fats !
And as referenced b4, brain runs more efficiently on ketones.

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nomoremuscles
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No need to be defensive massman. There are different opinions on this, and others are merely sharing their experiences and research. Your input is greatly appreciated, but that does not mean everyone is going to agree.

Here's a question for you: as a "health pro" with almost 24 years of experience, do you believe that there is single diet that is right for every human on the planet? Regardless of race, climate, evolutionary, genetic, and other factors?

I would tend to defer to hunter gatherer diets, but those, while high in protein and fat, were not exactly carb-free, and depending on the location of the tribe, were often carb rich. But, again, these carbs were green vegetables, fibrous vegetables, fruits, and occasionally roots. Not Spaghetti-O's or Fig Newtons. I think we can agree on that.

Could it be possible that there are many paths to enlightenment?

You said:

"What does one eat to get into ketosis ? Fats !"

True, but that is only in the absence of carbohydrate. If there is glucose present, it is used preferentially by the brain. Why would the brain do that if it prefers ketones? It may, I really don't know. But if it does: why?

Also:

"And as referenced b4, brain runs more efficiently on ketones."

I tend to agree that for many people, myself included, the brain seems to do well on ketones, and in many cases it does better. But you seem to be stating that it *universally* runs better on ketones. Do you have any evidence that supports this? Or even any evidence that it prefers ketones?

Thanks.

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massman
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OK - will reply tomorrow, but we will have to go from me using my "health pro" to my formal title,
Dr. Massman. Degree earned, not from net cruising.

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Keebler
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Many here have graduate degrees. Regardless, we all eat our broccoli just the same way. Oh, wait - guess we don't.
-

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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Originally posted by massman:
OK - will reply tomorrow, but we will have to go from me using my "health pro" to my formal title,
Dr. Massman. Degree earned, not from net cruising.

Geez.

Did the attitude come with that, or did you have to go extra?

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massman
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No. Always being a seeker came with that. And I do have trouble swallowing the status quo.

Children of the '60s are like that. Not born in then, was a teenager in the '60s.

Keeb - what kind of grad degrees ?

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Keebler
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This is not about who's the smartest, uh, kid on the playground.

If you want to disregard vegetables, that's your choice. There is plenty of proof that a wide variety of produce has health-promoting properties.

No one need be bullied into supplying that proof. Vegetables can speak for themselves, tall and strong . . . but, yet, there is much research that delves into their good nature.
-

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massman
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Where did I ever post that greens are bad and that we should not eat them ?

Never said we all should or could eat the same.

Will get back later for other questions.

And if the brain runs better on ketones why would it choose sugar if both were available ?

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massman
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Smartest nerd in my high school became a hells angel ! Really.

IMO + IME it is the application of the smarts that
count ! Not just if you got them but what do you do with them.

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richedie
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Complex carbs are fine, when they are instact. You can eat plenty of red skin potatos, steel cut oats, some sprouted grain bread, beans, buckwheat grouts, you get the picture.

There is a lot of misinformation about candida. Keep in mind, the broken down complex carbs you eat, as well as veggies provide pre-biotics for the good flora. If you cut out all of those carbs (keep in mind, your health would get much worse if you cut out all carbs!), you will also cut out the food supply for the good guys!

It is a balancing act, meat is very acidic and slows digestions, disease loves this and so do candida. It isn't all about the carbs!

ketogenic diets are bad news.

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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massman
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Anybody here ever gone on a ketogenic diet deliberately for a week or more ?
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massman
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Anone know the difference between:

Ketosis
Ketoacidosis

[ 10-20-2009, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: massman ]

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ping
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quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]:
Carbs feed yeast. If you must eat carbs, just be very selective. Stick with whole grains, and make sure you are eating plenty of protein, veggies, & healthy fats at the same time.

I've had to increase the number of meals I eat in order to slow the weight loss. I try for 4-5 meals a day, and it's a chore. But it's better than a raging yeast infection.

Okay everyone, back to jennie46 now. Jennie, after fighting Lyme for almost 7 years and off abx for almost 2 years now, I think "valla...." suggestion is where you should start. You'll have to tweek it to suit you're own special needs, but we all have to do that.

Best to you.

ping
"We are more than containers for Lyme"

--------------------
ping
"We are more than containers for Lyme"

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