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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » It's a MIRACLE- Breaking news- got to see this! (Page 1)

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Author Topic: It's a MIRACLE- Breaking news- got to see this!
Tincup
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Johns Hopkins .. yes.. HO HO Hopkins... has just made a discovery that Lyme disease can be in the L-form and.... have admitted the following...

"Not only are L-form bacteria difficult to culture and therefore study, but this "fried egg" cluster is part of what makes the L-form bacteria resistant to antibiotics, in addition to the fact that they do not have cell walls for commonly used antibiotics to disintegrate."

ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!

They are saying we CAN have a continuing infection after antibiotic treatment!

I can't believe they said this....

Bend over IDSA and kiss yourselves GOOD BYE!

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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HA!

I am so excited about this.... I forgot to give you the link to Ho Ho Hopkins article! Sorry!

http://tiny.cc/Q6FBb


[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

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canefan17
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HAHAHAHA

Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

What amazing work Mr. Hopkins. Back of the bus though. We've known this **** FOR AWHILE.

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Tincup
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Now I will go read the rest of the article. It is TWO pages so be sure to note both pages when reading from the website!

[Big Grin]

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massman
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Those IDSA duckies kiss themselves on the arse in the morning AND evening.

It's the ONLY time they ever have ANY emotional interaction with ANYONE in the world !

Trying to find their EGO.

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Tincup
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Yes.. true cane... but.. they house the IDSA spokesman there and other IDSA ducks.. some on the Guidelines.

This would never have been put out from HOPKINS, had all their ducks been in a row.

They have just dis-proven (blown out of the water) the very foundation of the IDSA's arguement that we are all cured after the IDSA recommended antibiotic treatment.

We can say that all day long and we know it for sure...

But for Ho Ho Hopkins to come forth with it... it IS a miracle.

[Big Grin]

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canefan17
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tincup,

I know. It's just comical that this ish is breaking research for them.

While I sit behind my computer desk and tell him, "DUH!"

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canefan17
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Where doe that article say anything about Hopkins?
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TerryK
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I don't see where they say they have actually cultured borrelia. Maybe it is in their original study? Do you know where we can find the actual study?

I do see where they are admitting that borrelia has an L-form.

edited to add:
Seems like the IDSA does not deny that the L-Form exists. They do deny that it is a factor in humans.

I thought McDonald had been showing L-Forms in humans for a long time? I guess the idea is that they may actually listen now?

Thanks,
Terry

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kitty9309
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Bloomberg School of Public Health is part of Hopkins.

I'd like to see a separate study specifically on Borrelia and L-form bacteria. That is the only way it will get more recognition.

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grandmother
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They are also saying antibiotics won't work.

(So why take any antibiotics, at all?).

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mixxster
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Unfortunately this article gives no focus to Lyme and only references it as a problem amongst

many problems in antibiotics.


This isn't nearly the huge medical turn around we were all hoping for.


However what this article may be able to do is to show the medical world that infesting into drugs

against L-forms in general could be a major money making investment. We all know the only way to

get the medical world to act on something is to demonstrate a mode for financial gain through drug

development.


Surely we will one day have access to new treatment against L-forms in bacteria.

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Tincup
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It is in the Johns Hopkins Newsletter. Look at the top of the page to see that line.

They refer to the researcher as being at Bloomberg... which is the Bloomberg Public School of Health... a part of Hopkins.

[Big Grin]

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Allie
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Wowza! Here is another quote from the article

"These L-forms of various bacteria may be the underlying reason for chronic resistant and recurring diseases, such as sarcoidosis, various forms of inflammatory bowel diseases and rheumatoid arthritis. Zhang is confident that there will be many practical applications of this discovery."

I agree this is big news coming from this research institution.

I think PLOS ONE is an opensource journal, so we should be able to get this article easily.

Allie

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Amanda
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Wow, thanks for posting!

They say "commonly used antibiotics" won't be effective, since the bacteria don't have cell wall types that are disrupted by most abx.

I guess they do not consider tindimax and flagyl commonly used antibiotics. Aren't these two abx used for bacteria with these types of cell walls?

--------------------
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Tincup
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Mixxxxxxxx said.. "This isn't nearly the huge medical turn around we were all hoping for."

Oh, but it is....

It is ground breaking and VERY significant!

Now the IDSA can't say we are not infected after getting the treatment. They can no longer say..

"There is NO credible evidence chronic Lyme exists."

It will impact the IDSA Panel Review, help with doctors under fire... affect (positively) our insurance claims... and do much more!

It is confirming what we've been saying for years... and a BIG duck motel is saying it.

They obviously let this slip out. I can't imagine they intended this to be out there.

[Big Grin]

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canefan17
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grandmother,

They are saying common antibiotics won't work against L-Forms.

We know antibiotics that kill spirochetes.
Doxy, etc

They are saying common axb like amox and Penicillan won't work against L-Forms.


Basically they've told US nothing new.

It's good news because more people will open their eyes.

But it's nothing new to you and me.

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canefan17
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So will they try to claim THEY'VE broken through with this new information.

Or will they acknowledge that great doctors/researchers have been saying this ish for years.

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nomoremuscles
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quote:
Now the IDSA can't say we are not infected after getting the treatment. They can no longer say..

"There is NO credible evidence chronic Lyme exists."

Yes, this is great -- particularly since it came from where it did.

But ...

TC, you of all people know that credible evidence has no bearing on what the IDSA says or will say. It hasn't as of yet.

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sapphire101
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Maybe this will help too with the insurance companies who deny long term treatment.
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Tincup
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Amanda said.. "I guess they do not consider tindimax and flagyl commonly used antibiotics. Aren't these two abx used for bacteria with these types of cell walls?"

You all are typing faster than I can read and respond! HA!

Hopkins and IDSA have NEVER promoted the use of Tini or Flagyl because they will NOT admit Lyme can be chronic.

They even list these drugs as NOT recommended in the IDSA Guidelines... therefore... insurance won't pay and ducks won't prescribe them.

Here is the list of IDSA antibiotics NOT recommended, from the IDSA Guidelines.

"First-generation cephalosporins, benzathine penicillin G, fluoroquinolones, carbapenems, vancomycin, metronidazole, tinidazole, trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole, amantadine, ketolides, isoniazid, or fluconazole."

[Big Grin]

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JamesNYC
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The IDSA will say that is only in the laboratory and NOT in the human body.

They will ask for JH to PROVE that the L-form of Lyme is present in humans.

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Tincup
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Nomo said.. "TC, you of all people know that credible evidence has no bearing on what the IDSA says or will say. It hasn't as of yet."

But that is the point! Coming from US or ones who support us hasn't made a dent in their thick heads. But this is different!

Hopkins IS the epitome of the IDSA .. authors, editors, official spokesmen, etc.. all come from there.. in fact, even Wormser is from there originally... and the old Bumsteere is there quite often spewing his garbage.

They are the ones behind YOU not getting treated .. and are staunch supporters of the IDSA Guidelines and their hooey!

And NOW, they are the ones saying what we've been saying all along.

[Big Grin]

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Shadow01
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Interesting. I'm just learning, but from what I've been reading this published finding by a reputable researcher is the equivalent to Columbus proving to the Queen that the world is round: It doesn't change anything other than open up the door for more discoveries.


Congrats on the win guys! [Cool]

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Tincup
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Ok you bunch of belly-achers. GEEZE!

Does ANYONE have on their hats that say "I am a very positive person" today?

Obviously not.

[lol]

I am sorry on the surface this doesn't seem BIG to some of you.. but it is. Maybe you will see the reaching affects this has later on.

I do hope so.

And yes, sapphire... another good point. This gives the insurance companies one less leg to stand on.

Their world is crumbling, as we speak... because the IDSA is being shown to be wrong, wrong, wrong!

Once they (insurance and IDSA) KNOW this... even that it is possible... they can no longer deny treatment based on the possibilty there is no such thing as chronic Lyme disease.

If it came from OUR LLMD's... it would be brushed aside as usual.. but it came out of their mouths this time.

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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If anyone can get the research paper... I'd love to have a copy. I am busy with media and other stuff right now.

So any help would be appreciated.

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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Also.. please print out the Newsletter... before the link is removed.

THANKS!

[Big Grin]

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Lymetoo
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I find it encouraging!! Good find, my beloved TC!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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TerryK
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Sheesh TC - you're in quite a mood this week.

Asking questions or voicing ones thoughts about how this research will be viewed by the IDSA does not make one a belly-acher or a negative person.

[lol]
Terry

[ 11-10-2009, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: TerryK ]

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D Bergy
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I think it is good news on one hand, and a sorry state of affairs on the other.

It seems preposterous that the amateurs here have to wait for the smart people to figure out what has been readily apparent to most of us.

I guess that is why I do not pay much attention to developments like this. We already are about two steps ahead of the official science. It is like looking at a rerun of last years breaking news. I am waiting for someone to invent the wheel any time now.

Dan

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sixgoofykids
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Great news!!

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Marnie
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The cell wall form of Bb (CWD = cell wall deficient for newbies) is "finished off" via 2 means:

Osmotic pressure changes OR ultrasound.

Which makes HBO and Rife "believable". HBO and ultrasound ALSO impact "biofilms".

FACT...this is step #2 in "how to destroy a gram negative pathogen".

#1 Destroy the cell wall or prevent it from forming and THEN:

#2 Hit it with osmotic pressure changes/ultrasound.

I suspect barometric pressure changes also impacts the CWD forms...which accounts for pains before a storm, etc.

Given the opportunity (nutrient requirements), Bb is quite capable of rebuilding "his" cell wall.

Inhibiting that cell wall is only the FIRST step.

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Tincup
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"Asking questions or voicing ones thoughts about how this research will be viewed by the IDSA does not make one a belly-acher or a negative person."

Not seeing that I am KIDDING around DOES!

[lol]

This image below means I am LAUGHING... and it is the same one following the comment I made above.

[lol]

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Tincup
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I can't take the credit for finding this TuTu... but it came directly to us from one of our dear members.

Had they not shared it.. we all could have missed it.

THANK YOU to the one who pulled the HO HO Hopkins rabbit out of the hat! You know who you are!

BIG news... and we are grateful!

[Big Grin]

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Amanda
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Well, I'm with Tincup.

I think it is amazing that this research came out of Hopkins, and frankly, more amazing that the IDSA followers weren't there to argue or censor the article before it went public.

Of course many of the IDSA followers are going to argue that it doesn't prove lyme in the human body can be chronic, blah, blah, blah.

But those people most likely will not change their minds anyway.

But for those MDs and researchers that are reviewing the current literature, and are more open, it will mean at least they will begin to contemplate this as a possibility. And when they do, guess what? It will lead them to read the medical literature previous to this research, and maybe now those people will begin to see that that this is a very complex nasty disease, and not "hard to catch, easy to treat".

--------------------
"few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain

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Tincup
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Kitty said..

"I'd like to see a separate study specifically on Borrelia and L-form bacteria. That is the only way it will get more recognition."

That has been done and is at or on the way to the publisher. University of New Haven has 5 excellent papers ready to roll.

Add that work to this statement from HO HO.. and we now have 2 Universities confirming McDonald's work and that of other independent researchers.

Keep in mind..

There are NO studies proving the IDSA is right with their theory that there is no active infection in chronic Lyme.

Their catch phrase... There is no convincing evidence that active infection is the cause of the symptoms found in people who have been treated using the IDSA protocol... (I am paraphrasing here)

Well, their catch phrase has more holes in it than swiss cheese... and they can't keep saying it without being SUED big time.

Stupid can only get you so far. Pretty soon law suits can and will evolve.

And although we have Lyme and can be treated and get better...

It is unlike the IDSA's problem... because there is no cure for stupid.

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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Amanda said.. "I think it is amazing that this research came out of Hopkins, and frankly, more amazing that the IDSA followers weren't there to argue or censor the article before it went public."

You are right! How they messed up on this.. I have no clue.

I've known IDSA/Hopkins reps to go marching into a newspaper office and demand equal time/space when anything even remotely positive to our side has been published.

Pigs....

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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I said.. "Stupid can only get you so far. Pretty soon law suits can and will evolve."

Actually... Hopkins HAS been sued for messing up.

Guess I should have said "more sued".

[Big Grin]

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IckyTicky
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But are they also saying that antibiotics are useless, therefore we don't need to be on them long term? Or did I miss something?

--------------------
IGM: 18+, 23+, 30+, 31+++, 34+, 39IND, 41++, 58+++, 66+, 83-93IND
IGG: 31+, 39IND, 41+
Also positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae and RMSF.
Whole family of 5 dx with Lyme.

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Tincup
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The article says... "E. coli L-form colonies appeared in 48-72 hrs, were mucoid, and exhibited typical ``fried egg'' morphology, consisting of peripheral growth on the surface of the agar with a dense center embedded into the agar (Fig. 1A)."

That is the findings of the CT studies too... and they did Lyme, not E. Coli. Good thing they BOTH were the same.

Sooooooooooo... they are changing into L-forms within 72 hours.

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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Icky.. I am still digesting the actual study... will respond once I "get it".

Cotton... You said.. "I feel bad for McDonald and other heroic researchers who haven't had funding and have been largely ignored."

Me too! Especially Dr. McDonald. But, hopefully we can go back in time, since this is now confirmed by the "big guys" and get them credit where credit is due.

Ho Ho should NOT be getting the credit for this... which is what I am working on now.

In between taking breaks and being here.

This stuff is DEEP.. and my attention span can only take small doses at a time.

[Big Grin]

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Allie
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So, this paper does not have the words "Borrelia", "Lyme" or "spirochete" anywhere. Is that ok?

It's in the press release, but not in the actual manuscript.

hmmmmm.

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Tincup
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The article states...

"Despite the discovery of L-form bacteria in 1935, the molecular mechanisms underlying L-form formation and survival have remained obscure.

This lack of progress is mainly because of the unstable nature of L-form bacteria, the variability of the models used for their generation, and the unavailability of modern molecular biology tools before the 1980s when L-form research was largely abandoned.

In this study, we took advantage of microarray technology and an E. coli deletion mutant library.

These tools were used to perform whole genome-wide gene expression analysis and mutant library screens to provide insight into the molecular basis of L-form formation using the E. coli L-form as a model.

>>> The major findings of this study are the identification of pathways and genes involved in cell envelope stress, DNA repair, iron homeostasis, outer membrane biogenesis, and drug efflux/ABC transporters being involved in L-form formation and survival (Fig. 5). <<<

This study represents the first systematic genetic analysis of L-form bacteria and provides important insights into the molecular basis of L-form bacteria."


`````````````````````````````````````````````````

My assumption is... the "fried egg" description they are using could be describing the biofilms?

Not sure.. so if anyone has a thought on that, please share.

[Big Grin]

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Tincup
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BTW- THANKS Chuck for sharing the article link!

[Big Grin]

Allie...

Yes, they did not use Lyme bacteria for their model in this study... but instead E. coli. That is fine.

L-forms have been documented since the 1930's by many researchers... the BIG news is that Ho Ho has denied this constantly for years....

And now someone in their own home has publicly blown them out of the water.

[Big Grin]

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Allie
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Oh, so Ho Ho has said there is no credible evidence that L-forms exist or are a problem?

Now, I see how big this is. Got nervous when I looked at the paper.

The press release was fabulous because they went as far as to use the word Borrelia.

That was beautiful to see.

Thanks Tincup.

Allie

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aMomWithHope
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Great news indeed!

Although I too am now wondering if spirochetes are morphing into L-form within 72 hours and abx aren't found to be effective on that form, what does one use?

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Cold Feet
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Cottonbrain, I don't think you have a cotton brain:

``Is it possible that Hopkins released this info because they are hoping that big pharma will donate huge amounts of grant money to further their research?''

Well, you read the last line:

"It is possible, with our discovery of the L-form genes to develop new antibiotics and more effective ones that can be used with current ones as well as new vaccines to...allow these forms to be eliminated by the immune system ," he said."

Vaccines can be good money -- given good marketing, hospitable host countries and hospitable host sheeple!

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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TerryK
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Oh yeah TC, I forgot to put a laughing face under mine.

Does that mean I can say anything I want?
[lol]

[ 11-06-2009, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: TerryK ]

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TerryK
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Amanda wrote:
But for those MDs and researchers that are reviewing the current literature, and are more open, it will mean at least they will begin to contemplate this as a possibility.

Good point! I think that is a real possibility!

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canefan17
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Yay. In 20 years we'll all be good to go.


/counts down the days

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lpkayak
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busy after noon huh? 51 replys in 5 hrs...

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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massman
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Now wait a minute TC - I thought the Graemlin you use most of the time was you without your teeth chewing something tough !

[dizzy] - this is an IDSA member while he has his head up his arse

[bow] - this is the bowdown BigPharma expects when they are interacting with ANYBODY

[toilet] - and this is what is going to happen to the IDSA after some sharp LLL (lyme literate LAWYERS) nail them to the wall in the lawsuit

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22dreams
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True, for now it could be used as further justification of rejecting abx use --sure.
But it mentions "common abx" and as someone stated, not nec. those commonly used for lyme tx.

The word vaccine leapt off the page for me.
they could draw research $$ with this but will it be for borrelia research?

E-coli is a biggie. A couple years ago a local woman's child(one of her twins) died from e-coli.
With all the food contamination stories in the news, my bet would be that a good chunk of the research focus would be on that.

However, any L-form research is welcome. can only give more insight that could help us all...

quote:
Originally posted by IckyTicky:
But are they also saying that antibiotics are useless, therefore we don't need to be on them long term? Or did I miss something?


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canbravelyme
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[woohoo] TC and [woohoo]

Wow: benzathine penicillin G was not on the list for treatment of Lyme disease? Benzathine Penicillin saved my life. No wait - it was Benzathine Penicillin LA that I took - was that considered appropriate treatment by the IDSA?

My sense is no, considering what lengths I had to go to in order to find a knowledgeable physician who prescribed it.

My concern: as this is research that has arisen since the end of the IDSA guideline hearings, can it be dismissed as inadmissible?

This would be HUGE. Maybe I would get my money back from the $h**ty government of mine. And get back some pain and suffering money to boot.

As for the researchers like MacDonald and all our brave and champion LLMD researchers - clearly they're not in it for the money or the notoriety. It doesn't matter who takes credit - what matters is that millions of people are treated for the pandemic that actually exists.

[kiss]

[ 11-06-2009, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: canbravelyme ]

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For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician.

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feelfit
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rife?
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canbravelyme
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"new vaccines to . . . allow these forms to be eliminated by the immune system," he said."

Well that just about made me cry... [spinning smile]

--------------------
For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician.

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Pinelady
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Thank You. Great News. Now if we can slap the Mayo around we can have a par ty....

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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D Bergy
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The last vaccine was a disaster. I would not be the first to get a new one.

Dan

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TylerAdam
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Bacterial antibiotic resistance genes discovered
By ALEENA LAKHANPAL
Issue date: 11/5/09

Wow! Thanks Tincup for this post!

Interesting bits for me:

"Once Zhang and his team were able to successfully culture L-form E. coli, they screened for and identified mutants that fail to grow at the L-form. From these mutants, they were able to discover a series of genes that were linked with the inability to grow in the L-form."

"Not all bacteria can transform into the L-form, but those that can include Bacillus anthracis (anthrax), Treponema pallidum (syphilis), Mycobacterium tuberculosis (tuberculosis), Heliobacter pylori (stomach ulcers and cancer), Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme disease) and Escherichia coli (food poisoning). Zhang's team used E. coli to create a culture of L-form bacteria."

-----------------------------------------------

This ties in with your other excellent post:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/87230#000019

Where you mention the excellent Dr Eva Sapi's work.

Tincup said...
"Highlights of their presentation.... off the top of my head...

1. Doxy does not kill all of the Lyme. They tried for three weeks to kill it and it didn't work. No antibiotic alone or in combo with another was shown to kill all the spirochetes.

2. Spirochetes went into a cyst form to protect themselves after getting Doxy for just three days.

3. Doxy and Tini (combo) had the best chance at reducing numbers of keets in the study of various antibiotics.

4. Pulsing large doses of antibiotics (72 hour intervals) may be more effective in kicking big keet butts. Need more studies here.

5. Need more funding for studies. GOOD studies like these.

The CT scientific group, for example, needs a microscope that costs about $80,000.00 to continue their studies to "see" keets and what they are doing in the tissue.. and what can be done to kill them.

6. Bladder, sinuses, joints- keets like them a lot.

7. Bio-films are a HUGE reason why we are still sick.

8. Genetic markers (rise and fall) can be used to determine keet infection"

-------------------------------------------------
PV comment...
Are L-form "fried egg" forms and biofilms the same thing. They seem to be??

Biofilm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uNDWdChM8

Peter

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northstar
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Maybe they did this study to provide "credible"
evidence, for some IDSA changes, rather than basing some changes on ILADS presentations, in order to avoid validating what ILADS has been saying with their
evidence.

CYA study?

Northstar

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massman
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Excellent point, northstar.
If someone elses evidence shows it, can't be true.

If OUR evidence shows it, it MUST be true.

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northstar
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L-forms are not new;



http://tinyurl.com/y87dojc

(googlebooks:
Cell wall deficient forms: stealth pathogens
By Lida H. Mattman
III edition

chapters have links to some pages.

Interesting: did the FDA not shut down her labs? (bad memory here?)

google search on
l-forms borrelia antibiotics
brings up tons of info:

http://tinyurl.com/yf3zgwv


Northstar

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Marnie
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The new vaccine is based on Bb's OspB, not OspA.

HUGE difference!

And they are modifying a particular probiotic to help us to fight Bb's outer cell walls - to trigger an immune response anytime we encounter a "like" pathogen.

Bb goes from OspC ("cloaked" with serum alkaline phosphatase = SALP) to avoid immune detection initially.

But to invade, to be pathogenic, it has to present another outer surface protein - OspA first.

We impact that outer surface protein (=Osp) by downregulating dopamine.

We do that by breaking down tryptophan -> melatonin.

Melatonin decreases dopamine.

Dopamine -> norepinephrine (=noradrenaline) -> epinephrine (= adrenaline).

Bb's OspA binds to norepinephrine and epinephrine so we downregulate them = not available for Bb's OspA to lock onto!

This FORCES Bb to express OspB.

Which is exactly what our antibody goes after.

mAB CB2. Monoclonal antibody that is supposed to lock onto a particular cannaboid receptor (CB2).

Unfortunately, with Mg levels diving (at the outset of lyme), our antibody to Bb's OspB is "damaged".

Bb has a PKC inhibitor. That means it is preventing a calcium triggered phosphate transfer (actually it is impacting 2 phosphate transfers).

LOGIC says, if Bb is "camped out" in our defense cells and has a PKCB2 inhibitor that cell may indeed send a "call for help" - a receptor - to the surface. That receptor is CB2.

If we HAVE a healthy antibody and it locks onto the CB2 receptor, this triggers an enzyme called alpha hemolysin.

That enzyme destroys RBCs...which release stores of Mg and hemoglobin which is broken down into some pretty toxic things. In addition alpha hemolysin ALSO metabolizes liposomes (the building blocks of lipoproteins).

So...with Mg available...there goes Bb's chance to rebuild "his" cell walls via the "cholesterol pathway" via inhibiting an enzyme called HMG CoA reductase. AND alpha hemolysin also is destroying Bb's cell walls.

We are at a huge disadvantage to fight because Bb is EXPORTING Mg as ONE of the components to build "his" biofilm.

MANY pathogens use Mg, Ca, Fe, and glucose to make biofilms for immediate "protection" and for quorum sensing (signaling one another).

Bb has a gene for transferrin (a protein) which transports Fe.

P.S. Darn...I keep misspelling hemOglobin.

[ 11-07-2009, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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aMomWithHope
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Marnie, you are amazing in your knowledge and always impress me with how you can understand these pathways, etc. I wish I had your knowledge.

Unfortunately, I'm confused, nothing new there.........

please help me understand this.

Do we or do we not need magnesium to help eradicate Lyme and co-infections?

If as you state above, magnesium is available, and this prevents Bb from rebuilding its cell walls, isn't that a problem? Without the cell walls, isn't this form (the L-form) the more difficult form to eradicate, based on the above article?

Thus, don't we want to help the Bb rebuild the cell walls so that it is back in a form that will make abx treatment effective?

Or am I misunderstanding and cell wall form is the same as biofilm?

Sorry for being so dense, but I really want to finally understand this.

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grandmother
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Does this mean idsa types will no longer claim Bb is an autoimmune problem?
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Marnie
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Take this slowly...read this over and over until it "clicks".

Cram course:

In Romania, doctors treated TWO EARLY ONSET lyme patients with

IV Mg AND IV Abx.

and cured them.

In Italy...Dr. Valletta cured bowel cancer, RA, etc. in three months

using Mg pyrophosphate and sublingual (under the tongue) B6.

(Sublingual B6 is P5P which is also called PLP...the active form of B6. Source Naturals makes it.)

When B6 supplies run low, since B6 is needed to control Na, the body will then switch to an alternative route to control sodium levels. It will upregulate aldosterone which unfortunately comes from our HDL...our "good cholesterol".

Primary aldosteronism achieves the Na balance and this is called ``sodium escape''.

I might as well get into this:

"When you're under stress your body will convert your DHEA into cortisol. This process has been named

cortisol steal.

When this occurs the body's levels of DHEA, aldosterone, estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone will all decrease. This is how stress can cause hormonal imbalances in people."


Dr. Valletta gave those patients *IV doses* of MgPPi (magnesium pyrophosphate) to "jumpstart". Flood the system.

His U.S. patent is titled: "Magnesium for autoimmune".

Pyrophosphate is PPi...2 phosphates.

"...containing the *ATP analogue* magnesium pyrophosphate (MgPPi)"

MgPPi is an ATP analogue =

(analogue = a chemical compound with similar properties)

So Mg pyrophosphate has properties - functions similar to ATP, our energy carrier. Pure energy...no "electrical" charge. Called photons.

The cells in which Bb is camped out in (our defense cells) are NOT making enough ATP (the energy carrier). Their powerhouses appear to be robbed of Mg/MgATP and sufficient glucose.

The powerhouses of our cells (called mitochondria) themselves need glucose (as well as other nutrients including hydrogen).

Many of our cells are, in fact, "hydrogen powered". Hydrogen goes right into our cells and can be exchanged with other minerals (like Na...hint, hint).

But...to get hydrogen into the MITOCHONDRIA, we need a "helper" an enzyme called CoQ10...which we make

when we exercise.

Keep in mind...to MAKE our enzymes and all other proteins, WE need Mg.

Years ago, lyme patients went to Italy for a treatment called ICHT...intracellular hyperthermia. It speeds up glycolysis tremendously. This "heats" the cells.

Yes...Bb appears to make our cells "cold", so we send the "de-icers" NaCl and CaCl...to warm them up.

Bb needs NaCl for motility. And it needs Na for its Na-ATPase (which causes ATP-> ADP...loss of 2 phosphates).

Unfortunately, MgCl is also a "de-icer", but Bb is transporting Mg OUT (as well as Ca).

The drug that was given in Italy was DNP. It is in a class with...cyanide.

When you speed up glycolysis tremendously, this impacts the electrolyte balance and can (and did) -> death.

DNP used to be given years ago in the U.S. to very quickly lose weight...burn fat -> ketones...and a particular ketone IS capable of destroying Bb. That ketone inhibits fatty acid synthesis and Bb needs fatty acids. That ketone inhibits ACC2.

Caprylic acid is metabolized in our liver to make the ketone that inhibits ACC2...shutting down fatty acid synthesis.

Caprylic acid is the "working" nutient in the AD "medicinal food" called Axona. Caprylic acid is also in virgin coconut oil (VCO).

This flips a switch between using fats or using glucose for energy. Fats are switched "off", glucose is "on".

Bb "uncouples oxidative phosphorylation". This means the infected cells don't use oxygen + glucose to make LOTS of ATP (36 ATPs), but instead only use glucose (2 ATP).

The goal is to increase ATP...lots. ATP is our energy "carrier".

By speeding up glycolysis tremendously...we speed up the formation of ATP.

We need to look to tame down inflammation (Mg IS a powerful anti-inflammatory and anti-histamine) AND hit Bb - simultaneously.

The cure is 2-fold: tame down inflammation (block the inflammatory cytokines - TNF alpha and IL 1 B) AND destroy Bb.

There are alternative ways to do the above!

What WE need inside our cells is Mg. It is attached to our ATP as Mg-ATP and it helps to transfer phosphate groups.

Bb has a toxin/ an inhibitor that prevents phosphate(s) transfer. It appears to use OUR phosphate to build its cell walls which are:

"Borrelia burgdorferi differs from many other bacteria in that it contains only two major membrane phospholipids: phosphatidylglycerol (PG) and phosphatidylcholine (PC)".

Bb is robbing us of choline...kiss acetylcholine good-bye. No REM sleep. Not good.

Bb uses Mn...MANGANESE for all its enzymes and absolutely depends on Na...sodium.

WE use Mg to make our enzymes and all of our other proteins.

While we need a little manganese, in a jam, it can substitute for Mg. So when our Mg stores run low...Mn "steps up to the plate."

Bb EXPORTS Mg (and Ca) and uses those (along with Fe - iron and glucose) to build "his" biofilm. So do A LOT of other pathogens!

Getting Mg and glucose back IN the defense cell (where Bb is camped out) is the problem.

***Bb is robbing us of SO MANY vital nutrients - ones WE need to fight.***

It is going to take a LOT of Mg to "displace" the more reactive mineral, Na. This is why IV doses are needed (along with B vitamins = "Meyer's cocktail).

This is WHY those who went to Germany for far infrared "heating" treatments ALSO were given IV Mg.

The % loss of Mg at the outset of lyme looks to equal that stored in our muscles. That is a HUGE drop...about 33%...that much of a loss at the time of the rash! Whoa!

I don't think Bb is responsible for kicking that much Mg out of our cells initially. I think it was the body trying to defend itself. Mg is also an anti-histamine. It prevents a severe allergic reaction...life threatening. It appears we did not have enough to "spare" fast enough.

Unfortunately Mg levels continue to spiral down.

2 steps to destroy a gram negative pathogen:

1. destroy the bacteria cell walls or prevent them from forming in the first place

2. THEN...osmotic pressure changes or ultrasound "finish it off" (CWD form).

I suspect barometric pressure changes also hit the CWD forms of pathogens. Mother Nature to the rescue sort of thing. This maybe why when a storm approaches, many persons with arthritis feel worse.

We (and Bb) are using/need Mg. Bb exports Mg to build his biofilm while WE need it to make HEALTHY antibodies to destroy Bb.

Bb is gram negative which simply means multiple cell walls (harder to penetrate). The only gram positive dangerous pathogen (one cell wall) is anthrax.

The biofilm is...well think of it this way...really thick mucous loaded with Bb(s).

So all these Bb's are in this thick mucous-like biofilm and each one of the Bb's has many cell walls.

First we gotta get thru that biofilm - break it up - and then hit Bb. Our body looks to be trying to do that via increasing the dangerous free radicals (lone oxygen) and/or upregulating MMP1 - collagenase.

Worse...our body looks to be using Hg...mercury...accummulating it...to destroy Bb.

But Hg is also very toxic to our neurons.

Instead of calling it "autoimmune", I prefer to look at it as "self-sacrifice". We are sacrifying self proteins in order to destroy Bb's proteins.

Ancora Imparo!

Translation...I am still learning. I've been researching this for 9 years now. I began by not even knowing (and too embarrassed to ask) what LLMD stood for!

Take it slow...this is an extremely complex pathogen and there is lots to learn!

But know this...a cure IS possible. Lyme disease IS curable, but it takes a long time.

Always...whatever treatment path you chose...

TAKE PROBIOTICS. ALL treatments destroy the "good guys" with the bad.

Lyme DOES -> "autoimmune" if not treated with the treatments which WORK to completely destroy Bb. Bb CAN trigger other diseases...several.

[ 11-07-2009, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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Bugg
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I am hopeful this research will lead to better treatment.

However, I am a bit concerned that this research could also be used by health insurance carriers/IDSA to DENY coverage of the use of many abx on the grounds they are ineffetive against the L form of borrelia burgdorferi.

I'm REALLY CONCERNED this actually supports the IDSA's position that, in most instances, long-term abx are ineffective at CURING lyme. They could argue we may still have the spirochetes but no effective modalitity to eradicate them.

What, I feel, may be an even greater consequence of this study is that lyme patients who have undergone treatment but are still ill should NO LONGER BE DUMPED INTO THE CFS and FIBROMYALGIA categories. THERE IS CLEARLY a REASON (the L Form) why many of us remain ill even after treatment!!!!!

While they are figuring out how to treat the L Form, we need doctors/researchers focusing on understanding the immune response/inflammatory response to the L forms of bacteria. L form bacteria has got to cause CERTAIN, SPECIFIC immune/inflammatory reactions.....

Instead of just dumping us into the CFS/Fibromyalgia pool, why don't we undestand the science behind this better and provide, AT LEAST, better palliative care for L bacteria patients?????

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Marnie
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Gosh...go back to the beginning.

Abx. DO damage the cell walls OR prevent them from forming...and then we have to

"finish the job":

Osmotic pressure changes/ultrasound.

Though other methods might work too.

Abx. DO alter our immune response...not necessarily a bad thing!

But we have to take this to the second level...hit the CWD form before it can rebuild its cell wall.

We KNOW how to do that...it is basic microbiology re: how to completely destroy a gram negative pathogen.

BTW...Tetracycline does contain 2 ketones.

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Cold Feet
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Bugg,

You raise a good point! If treating Lyme patients is shown to have a low ``return on investment,'' relative to ``performance benchmarks,'' the possibility of patient care does seem like it could be compromised. Time will tell.

In the meantime, the 1990 (one-thousand nine hundred and ninety) page bill on National Healthcare(that is rumored to be passed this weekend) is here: http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us/images/111_ahcaa.pdf

This excerpt is from page 874 of the 1990 page bill:

Affordable Health Care for America Act (H.R. Full Version)

``(c) CONSIDERATIONS IN SETTING NATIONAL PRIORITIES
With respect to such priorities, the Secretary shall ensure that priority is given to areas in the delivery of health care services in the United States that--

1) contribute to a large burden of disease, including those that address the health care provided to patients with prevalent, high-cost chronic diseases;

2) have the greatest potential to decrease morbidity and mortality in this country, including those that are designed to eliminate harm to patients;

``(3) have the greatest potential for improving the performance, affordability, and patient centeredness of health care, including those due to variations in care....

More on this pending law and what it may mean:
http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us/congressionalbills.html

[ 11-07-2009, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Cold Feet ]

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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cantgiveupyet
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what is the best treatment protocol for the L form?

--------------------
"Say it straight simple and with a smile."

"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet,
But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."

-Schopenhauer

pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg

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aMomWithHope
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Thank you, Marnie. I think I'm finally starting to understand.

You wrote: "But know this...a cure IS possible. Lyme disease IS curable, but it takes a long time."

And also: "Lyme DOES -> "autoimmune" if not treated with the treatments which WORK to completely destroy Bb. Bb CAN trigger other diseases...several."

This is wonderful to hear regarding a cure. Do you feel that this cure already exists or is this a hopeful statement.

I hope my daughter is getting the treatments that work. This is why I'm on here so often and trying to fully understand everything about this infection. I would love to get all her Bb destroyed.

Do those statements pertain to the co-infections too, i.e., cured versus remission? Talking Bartonella and Babesiosis.

Do you feel that this cure or treatment that works is based on abx use, alternative route (herbs, homeopathic, rife) or a combination of both? I'm thinking you probably believe a combination of both, but I could be wrong.

When mentioning that treatment is long, is there a rough idea as to how long at minimum treatment should be to eradicate?

And, by osmotic pressure changes/ultrasound, are you referencing HBOT and Rife treatments, or is there some other method that utilizes those treatments that I need to be aware of?

Does ultrasound treatment currently exist? (I know it is used for diagnostic purposes but treatment?) How does one go about getting an ultrasound regularly to treat? And would it be a whole body ultrasound?

Thanks again for teaching to the slowest in the class--me!--I really do appreciate it.

Tincup, I'm sorry if I hijacked your post. I can move this to another post or offlist (PM), if you feel that is info doesn't relate to your main topic.

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seekhelp
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Marnie is extremely intelligent AMomWithHope and I appreciate all she does for us and her research. However, IF there was a sure cure with a defined time limit, she would be filthy rich now sitting on the beaches of Tahiti. [Smile] Some of this is scientific educated guesswork and experimentation most likely. It doesn't hurt to try. [Smile]

I'd sure rather be sending her $$$ for a cure than droppjng them to a LLMD every time!!!

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aMomWithHope
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Marnie does strike me as very intelligent, and I too greatly appreciate all that she does for us.

Because she comprehends all this so thoroughly and has been researching this for over 9 years, I'm asking her for her educated guesswork regarding a cure and length of treatment. I know it will simply be her personal opinion.

I'm not taking it as the end all and be all, just another lead on my own research to cure my daughter.

I view Marnie's knowledge as a treasure trove that she has allowed us to access, and with my only having been researching this topic for maybe 9 months or so, her 9 years of research is something I want to tap into.

Obviously, I'm only asking for her opinion, but I believe it will be an educated opinion based on all her years of battling and research.

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SoSublyme
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Very interesting! Thanks for posting this, Tincup.
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AliG
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quote:
Originally posted by northstar:
Maybe they did this study to provide "credible"
evidence, for some IDSA changes, rather than basing some changes on ILADS presentations, in order to avoid validating what ILADS has been saying with their
evidence.

CYA study?

Northstar

This sounds like a very plausible explanation for this information being allowed to made public at this time.

IDSA does seem to prefer citing their own research as the be-all-end-all and we all know that research can only be true and "credible" if THEY say it is. (sarcasm)

They'd probably sooner DIE than cite any of the studies that have been presented to them over the years as reason for revisions. That would be admitting negligence and/or guilt and we would surely "own" them all.

This way they can still say that no one else in the world can properly conduct scientific studies & therefore they were just being cautious until they had absolute, irrefutable proof by some imaginary standards they chose to cling to.

[woohoo] I can almost feel the earth curving underneath me! [woohoo]
I do hope that they will soon admit that it's been round all along. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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