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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Oral Vit D Suppl - Cause of Allergy Pandemic? (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Oral Vit D Suppl - Cause of Allergy Pandemic?
TX Lyme Mom
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A paper was published recently in a European allergy journal suggesting that the history of our modern day allergy "pandemic" might be caused (at least in part) by the addition of oral vit D supplements to the food chain.

Note that this research was done in Europe, where they don't always concur with the dominating influence of American medical ideas over their countries' health policies.

http://www.aacijournal.com/content/pdf/1710-1492-5-8.pdf

The following comment was posted at the publisher's website in response to the article:

http://www.aacijournal.com/content/5/1/8/comments#384657


It hsa been our family's experience over the last 4-5 years that cutting out synthetic vit D -- by buying whole milk without vit D added to it (because the FDA requires that vit D be added to all milk which has had its fat content altered) -- that this minor change in our diet has been enough to get rid of Hubby's seasonal allergies and to strengthen his immune system so that he doesn't catch every cold and flu bug that comes around every winter.

Hubby teaches on a college campus, and the college students come to class sick, knowing that they are sick, because they don't want to get behind in their work. He used to catch every flu bug that went around the campus all winter long, every winter -- but not since he started drinking vit D-free milk 4.5 years ago. No more colds and flu at our house anymore now, thank goodness.

Our daughter used to think that she was "allergic to milk" or that perhaps she was "lactose intolerant" -- but once she switched to non-fortified (D-free) whole milk, she has tolerated milk just fine ever since.

I will never ever bring another carton of "fortified" (with vit D) milk into our house again, ever -- as long as I live! Sometimes we even have to do without milk for a week or so whenever the store runs out of the only brand of D-free milk sold in our little town.

Unfortunately, some LLMDs are now recommending vit D supplementation to their Lyme patients. I strongly encourage each of you to look into both the pros AND the cons of vit D supplementation for yourselves.

We learned about the harmful effects of vit D supplementation at the Marshall Protocol (MP) website. Here are links to more info about vit D from the MP website:


http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:vitamind:mechanisms

http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:vitamind

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Gahagan
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Hmm. Very interesting. Indeed, my LLMD recommended Vit D supplements instead of getting flu vaccines.

Frustrating when there is strong, yet conflicting, recommendations about anything.

Oh, what to do....what to do?

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massman
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What FORM of D ?

D3 ?

Was the added stuff the cheap form ?

Not much time to read right now.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by massman:
What FORM of D ?

D3 ?

Was the added stuff the cheap form ?

Answer: Either or both forms (D2 or D3) of synthetic D can be harmful.

Even too much natural vit D found in fish oil, especially if it's rancid -- as much of the fish oil capsules on the market are -- can be bad, too.

Be sure to look at this paper by Greg Blaney, MD (link below) which was published recently in the prestigious Annals of the NY Academy of Sciences, based on data collected from 100 of his patients. It includes data from about a dozen "post-Lyme" patients.

(I hate that term "post-Lyme" but that's what Lymies are called in the mainstream medical literature, so that's what Blaney called them in his paper also in order to be consistent with the current accepted terminology.)

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/BlaneyAnnals2009Preprint.pdf

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Gahagan:
Hmm. Very interesting. Indeed, my LLMD recommended Vit D supplements instead of getting flu vaccines.

Frustrating when there is strong, yet conflicting, recommendations about anything.

Oh, what to do....what to do?

Gahagan, what used to work pretty well for our family has been high doses of vit C plus extra vit B, instead of taking supplemental vit D. That was in the old days, a couple of decades ago, before vit D became such a big fad and when megadoses of vit C was still the big fad at that time.

In fact, I remember getting over flu within just 1-2 days one year when the flu season was particularly bad by taking vit C plus vit B around the clock, every 2-3 hours, even at night whenever I woke up. I was back on my feet in less than 3 days while everyone else was down and out for 2-3 weeks. I'll never forget that experience because I never expected it to work that well.

In fact, if I recall correctly, that was probably back during the 1976 Swine Flu epidemic. I'm pretty sure it was, based on the ages of my children at the time. I wouldn't have thought about this or have remembered it if you hadn't raised this question. Thanks for jogging my memory.

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Lymetoo
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That makes no sense to me at all!!!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymetoo:
That makes no sense to me at all!!!

Hey TuTu,
You're (usually) one very smart chickadee. So, what part of it doesn't make sense to you?

Did you really read it?

Did you look at any of the other links?

What's not understandable about it, TuTu?

Or did you maybe have a really bad night's sleep at Holiday Inn last night, huh?

Wake up, TuTu. Vit D supplementation is not innocuous, despite all the marketing hype about its value and importance.

Look, TuTu, if Vit D had been discovered today, instead of earlier in the last century, it never would have been named as a "vitamin" -- because it's NOT a vitamin.

It's a seco-steroidal hormone instead. And we all know that steroidal hormones can be like a double-edged sword, not to be played around with, nor taken in excess or inadvisably.

TuTu, I hope you haven't been taking so much synthetic vit D lately that your brain is starting to turn to mush now.

Remember, vit D and vit A are both fat-soluble vitamins, meaning that they are stored in the body's fatty tissues and that they can build up to toxic levels. They aren't innocuous like water-soluble vitamins are which are washed out of the body if you take too much of them, thereby creating nothing worse than expensive urine.

Please, TuTu, take another look at those links before you poison yourself with anymore of this potentially toxic substance. We love you too much, TuTu, to watch you harm yourself that way.

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Ocean
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Where did she get the unfortified milk from? Possibly it wasn't homogenized because some people can tolerate non-homogenized milk just fine.

Makes me think she got it from a small time dairy farm, like where my sis gets her milk, it is pasturized, but not homonegized

--------------------
http://www.healingfromlymedisease.blogspot.com/

Sick since 1996...Diagnosed 10/2008

IgM:23-25 IND, 31+++, 39 IND, 41 +++
IgG: 31 IND, 41++, 58+

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Lemon-Lyme
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It doesn't really make sense, as most people are deficient in D.

D fortification in milk is usually minimal anyway, somewhere around 400IU of D2 (not an amount that will boost D levels a whole lot in most people).

And there is no difference between D3 (either from cod liver or lanolin) and the D3 your body produces from the sun. Well, there is one difference, in that a person can megadose D orally a lot easier than via the sun, but the fortification in milk is hardly a megadose.

Dairy has been implicated with allergies, however. Perhaps it's more the brand -- organic grass fed cows, pasteurization, homogenization or some other factor in the milk. Milk isn't really so healthy anyway (casein, etc), but that is a different matter.

Anyway, I wouldn't blame the D.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Ocean:
Where did she get the unfortified milk from? Possibly it wasn't homogenized because some people can tolerate non-homogenized milk just fine.

The FDA requires that all milk which has had its fat content altered must be fortified with vit D. However, it's optional whether the distributors add synthetic vit D to their whole milk or not.

Whole Foods carries both kinds of whole milk -- organic, of course. It's all homogenized, so that's not the issue.

Organic Valley, which is sold in smaller health food stores, produces both fortified and non-fortified whole milk since they are aware that not everyone desires milk that has been supplemented with vit D.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemon-Lyme:
It doesn't really make sense, as most people are deficient in D.

That point is highly debatable -- especially if one measures BOTH forms of vitamin D, including 1,25-D, not just 25-D alone.

Please read the information at the MP website (links in the first post of this topic, above) about this more carefully so that you are familiar with both points of view about it before making up your mind.

Here is a link to another article which discusses the problems with supplemental vit D and the fact that most people are NOT deficient in 25-D at all. Quite the contrary. Persons who have chronic health problems often have dysregulated vitamin D metabolism, instead of simple 25-D deficiency.

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/AR-Albert-VitD.pdf

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Lymetoo
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Nope.. didn't read it. Sorry. Maybe later.

Good to see you TXLM!! [Cool]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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massman
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I thought D3 was bioavailable and D2 was not. [confused]

And responces to "C" ?

Ascorbic acid is only a small part of C. It is not the whole, naturally occurring C [Big Grin]

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seibertneurolyme
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Not going to argue on the merits of Vitamin D, but do agree that the letter from the Lyme patient was misleading.

Switching from non-whole milk with vitamin D added to whole milk without vitamin D it is not valid to assume that vitamin D is the only issue. What about the increased good fats in the whole milk? -- that could be what helped the family.

Mom and dad had a milk cow for years and I can tell you there is a tremendous difference in "store-bought" milk and the real thing. And there are big differences in milk fat content between Holsteins (most common commercial dairy breed) and other breeds such as Ayrshire, Guernsey or Jersey. Actually dad's last milk cow was a Charolais from his beef herd.

Bea Seibert

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TX Lyme Mom
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Massman,
Back in those days, all vit C sold was ascorbic acid. Period. None of the variety of different kinds of vit C back then. Everyone was on the bandwagon started by ..?.. can't think of the name of that famous scientist who won TWO Nobel Prizes and who took mega-doses of vit C. He lived into his 90s.

Actually, I followed a formula in an old out-of-print copy of an Adelle Davis nutrition book which stated that vit B-2 plus vit B-6 plus vit C would get rid of colds and flu. I didn't really expect it to work, but I tried it anyway out of necessity since there weren't any other natural options back then.

I took this combo every 2-3 hrs around the clock, including everytime that I woke up in the middle of the night. I can't remember if I took an aspirin with it or not, but I might have taken enough aspirin to keep my fever down. I just don't remember.

What I do remember though is that I was very surprised how effective it was because I had never experienced anything like that in my life before -- with the exception of the occasional rare use of an antibiotic for acute infections, of course. That's how effective that vit C + vit B combo around the clock was for flu that season.

It's hard to remember back that far, but that experience with vit C + B for flu is what got me started on the track of looking for other natural alternatives to all kinds of family ills.


As far as the difference between vit D2 vs vit D3, I try very hard to avoid both forms.

Furthermore, I don't like to use fish oil either -- although FWIW, the article by Matthias Wjst, cited above, states that fish oil isn't as bad as synthetic, water-based forms of vit D. (Quote below from pg. 8 of the Wjst article)

"Merck AG also sold a combination of vitamin A and vitamin D (that was
already on the market in the pre-war years). This combination, mimicking
the high vitamin A and vitamin D content of cod liver oil, seems to
antagonize the immunological effects of vitamin D [20], [21]. The effects of
cod liver oil may therefore not be fully comparable to chemically synthesized
vitamin D. Another difference is the oily basis of cod liver extract that may
have less allergenic properties than the watery solution used for some
vitamin D supplements [22]."

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TX Lyme Mom
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TuTu and I have been having a private little exchange by PM, but TuTu's mail box is full now, so I'm going to take a short-cut by posting my most recent reply to her here instead so that I don't lose it.


Nope, my dear darling TuTu. You're absolutely right.. that I'm going to say "You're wrong!"

Nope, you are NOT deficient in vit D -- not if you have 1,25-D, which is the active form of vit D -- sorta' like there are two kinds of thyroid -- T4 and T3, with T3 being the "active" form of thyroid.

Well, 1,25-D is the "active" form of vit D. That's why it's so important to measure both forms -- and it must be measured properly, too, by freezing the sample during transport because it deteriorates rapidly if it's not frozen. Lab Crap (my name for Lab Corp) doesn't freeze their samples, so their test results are a wasted effort and expense.

Taking supplemental vit D is somewhat similar to taking cortizone or cortisol. It makes you feel good in the short term, but later on it catches up with you after you have built up to a toxic level of it -- just like too much cortizone or cortisol will come back to bite you, and then you have to stop taking it, and it can be very hard to get off of it.

Do read the material at the MP-KB website. They do a really good job of explaining it understandably -- much better than I can do.

I probably need to go back and post some of this for everyone at LymeNet....

And so that's just what I'm doing right now.

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gwb
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TLM, what do people who have low vitamin D do if it's not advisable to take vitamin D3 supplements?

Gary

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Cold Feet
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Gary, that's a good question. After being on the MP and getting better, I have some different ideas on this...all of which are still in the formative stages. In other words, "dunno right now."

A few related thoughts: how would one know if one has a D dysreg problem? I think that is THE question. TexMom has stated with the references that it is the pathogens that "weigh down" the immune system and cause this dysregulation. And that's an oversimplification on my part.

I still cannot explain this process to people, let alone myself, so it's Ok to be perplexed, IMHO.

[Wink]

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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Lemon-Lyme
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I've read over the first abstract and have read articles about Marshall before.

I don't want to offend anyone, but most real scientists consider Marshall a borderline -- or over the border -- quack..

He's not a medical doctor and most of his theories have no actual clinical proof.

That said, it is worth getting 1, 25 tested and for some people, supplementing with D is a bad thing (such as in sarcoidosis people). But his theories don't really have scientific backing at this point.

I wouldn't go crazy supplementing with D3 (I wouldn't go over a serum of 50 at this point, until data shows a benefit), but remaining in a deficiency state can't be good for anyone. I have bad allergies, by the way, and tested deficient in D years ago (serum of 21), after supplementing to get it in the 40-50 range, my allergies didn't get any worse -- and I noticed less aches and pains too.

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Al
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I'd look at other things before jumping to conclusions about Vit.D
Canada has proclaimed that their science has found that 70% of all Cancers are the result of
subnormal amounts of Vit D.
Other things that fit your thinking are,
Cell phones, Plastics, genetic foods, Pesticides
and more.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemon-Lyme:
I've read over the first abstract and have read articles about Marshall before.

I don't want to offend anyone, but most real scientists consider Marshall a borderline -- or over the border -- quack..

He's not a medical doctor and most of his theories have no actual clinical proof.


I have trouble defending Trevor Marshall personally because he does have his personality "quirks" -- to put it euphemistically. He has about as much tact as a porcupine or a skunk, to be quite honest about it. But I'll give the man credit for being a scientific genius -- or close to it.

His hypothesis and protocol worked for our daughter and she is well now after having been ill for most of her life since early childhood, and for that we are indebted to him -- even if he has been unforgiveably rude to us. (Long story)

So there, now you know where I'm coming from, regarding my own personal bias about the dangers of hypervitaminosis D -- or dysregulated vitamin D, as some might prefer to call it. I'm not here to sell the MP to anyone though because I know of too many folks who got into trouble with it, especially back in the early days before they had most of the wrinkles worked out of their treatment guidelines so that people were herxing too hard and were dropping like flies along the wayside.

What I am trying to accomplish though is to create awareness of the dangers of too much exogenous vit D and how it can impede progress towards recovery.

I'm told that someone was asking why I came back to LymeNet after having been away for so long, and my answer to that is that the people who helped us the most over the years of our long journey in quest of answers were those few patients -- and I can count them on one hand -- who had triumphed over incredible odds and who had recovered their health from so-called "incurable" diagnoses (of various kinds, not necessarily Lyme disease).

At any rate, I try to contribute what little I can, when I can, as a way of paying back what LymeNet meant to us during those earlier years after she found her Lyme diagnosis but before we found the MP, which was a major factor in her successful recovery. Here's a link to a summary of her progress on the MP, written several years ago, but things just kept getting better and better from then on.

http://www.prohealth.com/me-cfs/blog/boardDetail.cfm?id=1007916


She is completely off the MP now, BTW, and has been off all antibiotics for approx. 8 months and has remained symptom free since discontinuing the MP. We won't dare to use the "C" word (hint: "cure") yet, until she is 5 years out -- you know, sorta' like cancer -- you aren't "cured" of cancer until you have been in remission for 5 full years without relapse. Nevertheless, for the very first time ever, we sincerely believe that this time it's for real.

However, let me reiterate that I'm not here to try to sell the MP to anyone because we know how difficult it is and what the pitfalls are for Lyme patients who have tried the MP, many of whom were not so lucky to be as successful as she has been. That's not the point.

The main point of this topic is that there is a definite down side to supplementing with exogenous vit D and that the LLMDs who are recommending it are not fully informed about the problems caused by exogenous vit D, especially synthetic vit D -- as opposed to fish oil sources of vit D, which don't seem to be quite as bad as synthetic vit D. Fish oil isn't necessarily good, of course, but it's just not quite as bad as synthetic vit D.

I've forgotten what else I had intended to add here, but this post is long enough, so I'll stop now and give someone else a turn to comment -- cause I know that most of you are very dubious about all of this.

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Pinelady
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I think if they did not have so many people with lyme disease they would not focus so much on D deficiencies with no cause. Did I say that right?

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Pinelady:
I think if they did not have so many people with lyme disease they would not focus so much on D deficiencies with no cause. Did I say that right?

Huh?

Try again, please. I don't follow what you're trying to say here.

BTW, please keep in mind that today is a big family holiday, and I've got to start making my casseroles soon -- to take to someone else's house, thank goodness. Also, I've got family coming into town tomorrow for the rest of the weekend.

Thus, if I fail to answer anyone's concerns in a prompt manner, then I'll try to get back around to it whenever I have a spare, uninterrupted minute or two -- or maybe not until after the holiday weekend is past.

I did intend to comment on the cancer concerns raised by Al, but it will take me a whole lot more time to try to respond to that because it's a complex subject. Thus, the relation of cancer to vit D "deficiency" will simply have to wait until much later also -- just so y'all know that I'm not trying to brush off anyone's concerns.

I realize I overlooked Bea's comment, too. She made a very good point though, and I did want to acknowledge seeing it. Thanks, Bea. We do have other valid reasons, based on our daughter's experiences with the MP, for believing that it's the synthetic D in the milk though, but that explanation will require sufficient time for me to delve into it in more thorough detail later, also.

Thanks for everyone's interest and attention so far in this important (and misunderstood) topic concerning the pros and cons of vit D supplemtation. Stay tuned....

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Pinelady
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I think what I meant was there are thousands of

people who have moderate to severe vitamin D

deficiency and they are not telling them a large

majority of those patients are suffering from a lot

more than Just Vitamin D deficiency. I do think

it will be found that people who have certain

deficiencies do in fact have it for a reason. Not

just because we don't get enough sun. The

scientists are telling them with loss of our

ozone we are getting more sun than ever before,

yet we have more D deficiency than ever before.

So..

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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Lemon-Lyme
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Can you post a study link showing lanolin D3 is different than fish oil D3? To the best of my knowledge, D3 is either synthesized from fish liver or lanolin (sheep wool). The end product of either process should be exactly the same thing.

And vitamin D produced by sunlight in the body is also D3. I don't see how there are any differences there.

There could be a difference using D2, as absorption could be different, and prescription D2 (which could be called synthetic) is just a way for pharmaceutical companies to patent and sell a cheap vitamin and make a profit. Sadly some doctors don't realize this,and prescribe megadoses of prescription D2 (50K a pill), which isn't the natural way people receive vitamin D (too many peaks and valleys).

As for more people being deficient in D now, than the past... maybe? I mean, if they never checked for it, how would anyone know? It's not until very recently that doctors would even test for D levels, and even now, they usually only do it if you ask for that test specifically.

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Pinelady
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Because vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin, it is mostly packaged in gelatin capsules, which are made from animal bones. Look for a vegetable-based capsule, or vitamin D as part of a tablet or liquid multivitamin supplement.

Some forms of vitamin D are not vegan. The most common form found in supplements is cholecalciferol, or vitamin D3, which is derived from sheep's wool.

Vitamin D2, ergocalciferol, on the other hand, is derived from vegan sources like yeast and mushrooms. There is some debate over the usefulness of D2 vs. D3 in the body (many think D3 is superior) but for now, the two are generally considered equivalent.

Read more: http://vegetarian-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/vitamin_d_and_vegetarians#ixzz0Y0Pc1NQm

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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jarjar
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Great post TXLymemom....thats what drives me crazy about all these Vita D studies. Most don't check the relationship of Vita D 1.25 by a good lab. Vita D 1.25 should be the marker if your D level is too low.
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emla999/Lyme
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This article is kind of interesting.

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2009/04/tufts-university-confirms-that-vitamin.html

If I am understanding that article correctly..... you shouldn't take Vitamin D unless you also take Vitamin A and Vitamin K2. Vitamin D needs to be in balance with Vitamin A and K2.

This is also very interesting......


Exposure to sunlight can lower Vitamin A levels:


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/03/990331063314.htm


http://www.dermaxime.com/vitamin-a-decrease.htm


http://tinyurl.com/yzdrzfx

Update:

A "Vitamin A" deficiency may be more common than previously thought.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091118072051.htm


So, does the Marshall protocol help some people NOT because they have high levels of Vitamin D but because they have low levels of Vitamin A and/or Vitamin K2????

[ 11-27-2009, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: emla999/Lyme ]

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Lymetoo
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TXLM... Linus Pauling ( vit C )

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by emla999/Lyme:
So, does the Marshall protocol help some people not because they have high levels of Vitamin D but because they have low levels of Vitamin A and Vitamin K2???? [/QB]

Sounds plausible. Sufficient vit A reduces vit D toxicity and vice versa.

Also, K2 is needed to activate GMP which reduces arterial calcification, which is a biofilm.(Few mg of MK4 = No more dental plaque!!).

Perhaps there is a synergy there.

Note: Biofilms are relevant because Marshall claims that bacteria in biofilms generate capnine, which blocks the VDR.

[ 11-26-2009, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: ninjaphire ]

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Lymetoo
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What's MK4?

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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emla999/Lyme
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Lymetoo,

MK-4 is a form of Vitamin K2.


http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=25651


http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/11/cardiovascular-disease-and-vitamin-k2.html


http://freetheanimal.com/2008/11/vitamin-k2-menatetrenone-mk-4.html


.

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O2Btickfree2
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Okay i have trouble understanding the details via doctors.

My question is simple to whom ever might can answer me.

I was told i had low vitamine d. So i went out and bought over the counter d3 and was taking 4,000 mg a day two pills every morning.

Now from what i have read it gives you calcium? Right? Well this week i ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis. Doc said i may have thrown a stone . Wonder if the vit d i was taking could have caused this?

Anyone got any ideas. Im scared to death right not to eat anything or take meds. I DO NOT want to go threw this again.

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emla999/Lyme
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quote:
Originally posted by ninjaphire:

Also, K2 is needed to activate GMP which reduces arterial calcification, which is a biofilm.(Few mg of MK4 = No more dental plaque!!).

I wonder if taking Vitamin K2 would also help reduce or dissolve biofilms in other areas of the body?

.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by O2Btickfree2:

I was told i had low vitamine d. So i went out and bought over the counter d3 and was taking 4,000 mg a day two pills every morning.

Now from what i have read it gives you calcium? Right? Well this week i ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis. Doc said i may have thrown a stone . Wonder if the vit d i was taking could have caused this?

Anyone got any ideas. Im scared to death right not to eat anything or take meds. I DO NOT want to go threw this again.

My motto has always been: "When in doubt, leave it out."

I'm pretty sure that the vit D probably did contribute to your calcium dysregulation and stone formation, leading to pancreatitis, which can happen if the bile ducts get blocked. However, I'll be honest in saying that I don't know enough to be certain about this.

That's why I always fall back on my little motto (above) about discontinuing anything that might have contributed to it until there is sufficient time to research it further in order to be sure of its safety.

I'm going to relay your question back to my "smart friends" in the MP group because I'm confident that one of them can give you a better answer than I can about it. (Hopefully, they won't be too busy on this hoiday weekend to give it their immediate attention, but if they are busy, then please be patient. Please prompt me by PM if you haven't received a response by next week because I realize that your situation is both serious and urgent.)

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Shosty
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I have osteoporosis at 58. I wish I had taken D earlier.
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Brussels
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I took Vit D3 when my levels were low, recommended by my doc. Most lyme sufferers supplement Vit D. I did that for a long time, until my levels got better.

I got healed from lyme (I'm in my 7th month remission) and don't buy this story from Marshall either.

Virtually anything can cause allergies. Milk is one of THE most allergenic products on the planet together with wheat. And people still consume these in high amounts.

I wouldn't though supplement Vit D (nor any vitamin) blindly. In excess, even water can be bad.

I am now free of lyme treatment but will be on Vit D during winter. I do feel some protective effect against colds. I got to continue for longer to be sure though.

Osteoporosis runs in my family, female side. I'll be considering taking Vit D as preventative too. Possibly not all the time, mostly during winter though.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Shosty:
I have osteoporosis at 58. I wish I had taken D earlier.

Shosty,
I've been looking for a quote by my friend George, a fellow MPer, who reversed his osteoporosis by reducing his hypervitaminosis D back down into the normal range again. It took him a couple of years to accomplish this feat though. His improvement has even been documented by bone scans.

I've e-mailed him to ask him to post a response here because I know that you would rather hear about it straight from the horse's mouth, but I suspect that he is out of town this weekend for the family Thanksgiving holiday.

(Edit: I'm editing to add that George's screen name here at LymeNet is "Dark Vader" because I've noticed that George had heeded my request for him to post his experience with reversal of his osteoporosis by reducing his vit D levels. See Dark Vader's post, below.)

In the meantime, here's a link for both you and also for Brussels to an explanation that might help you both to understand better why vit D supplementation is NOT the right answer for osteoporosis.

http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/#6

[ 11-27-2009, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: TX Lyme Mom ]

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TX Lyme Mom
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Emla99/Lyme has posted some fantastic links. I especially liked the Whole Health Source blogspot link that she posted, so I clicked around a bit at that website. That's how I found this article about celiac which explains how celiac patients often suffer from malabsorption of fats and fatty acids, leading to lower levels of vitamin D.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/12/gluten-sensitivity-celiac-disease-is.html

Therefore, I would be very leary of taking any supplemental fat-soluble vitamins, which can build up to toxic levels, without being tested first for celiac diseaseas being the cause of the vitamin deficiency. Remember, vitamin K is contraindicated for anyone who has a tendency towards hypercoagulation or who must take Rx blood thinning medications. Vit K is given to stop blood loss due to hemorrhaging.

Vit K was given to me as a child when I had whooping cough and was losing too much blood from frequent heavy nose bleeding caused by the constant coughing, and it made a lasting impression on me 'cause I hated it whenever my mother would call the doctor to come to the house and give me another vit K shot to stop my nose bleeds.


Thanks for pointing out all of those good website links, Emla, especially this one.

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Dark Vader
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For those not familiar with me, I am longterm "Lymie" according to your terminology (but consider "Lymie" a bad expression). I have been on the MP for a bit over five years now. I fully subscribe to Dr. Trevor Marshall's (Phd) hypothesis that the chronic illnesses of unknown cause are really a soup or stew of certain bacteria (forms) that cause a soup or stew of symptoms. It is NOT one germ or bacteria causing one illness (symptom or set of symptoms). Sorry that you cannot accept someone other than a certified medical doctor as knowing anything about medical matters. You wouldn't have accepted Louis Pasteur's discovery either, I guess, that germs (bacteria) can cause some illnesses.... he was a chemist, not a medical doctor. It was a medical doctor that hobbled his discovery with what is called The Koch Postulates (circa 1860's) that still hobble medical doctors thinking outside of the box today. They cannot let go of the proposition that it is NOT just one germ (bacterium) causing trouble. The tools that Koch used have been far surpassed in ability but the med docs cannot accept that propostion.

The NIH (Nat'l Institute of Health) has been studying since the mid-1980's the human DNA (genomic studies). What is the biggest discovery to come out of that is that is that the human body is probably only 10% human cells and 90% bacterial cells. It is NOT Bb, and a certain Bb at that, that is causing the Lymie's troubles. It is the soup or stew of various bacteria being able to control body processes, via the production, or the lack of production of the peptides, etc, that the innate immune system needs to ward off invaders, that enable the bacteria to live within the body. The bacteria do this via the VDR, which has, until NOW, been assumed to be necessary for the uptake of calcium. But this is an outdated concept!!! But the 25D (you call this D3 or D2) has a greater affinity to attach to the VDR than does the 125D hormone that the body really needs, and produces within the skin and within the eyes.

The below says a lot in a quick way, but is not all inclusive on the subject. Found at: http://tinyurl.com/mnqds9

"I am a retired biochemist who spent years in teaching and research on the regulation of biochemical pathways for interconversions of molecules in cells. A generalisation from the observations in this field is that a high concentration of the functional end product of a pathway will provide negative feedback to lower the concentration of an earlier intermediate (precursor) in the pathway. For vitaminD, the functional end product is 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD. This is rarely measured, because its amount in the body and its stability is low and its assay is difficult and expensive. The major product circulating in blood and routinely measured as an indicator of vitamin D status is 25-monohydroxy vitaminD. This is a precursor of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD. The established logic of regulation for biochemical pathways says high levels of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD will lead to lowered levels of 25-monohydroxy vitaminD. There is data on the actual mechanisms by which this can occur. There also data that 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD can increase in response to infection. Common sense and honesty requires consideration of the strong hypothesis that people who have low levels of measured vitaminD (25-monohydroxy vitaminD) have high levels of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD because they are sick with some form of infection. To suggest that the people are sick because they are vitaminD deficient without having data to rule out the above possibility (likelihood) is sloppy science."
Posted by: Lloyd Finch 07:38pm Thursday 23rd July 2009
************************************

I ramped up to 16,000 units of D3 by June 04. As I ramped up, I felt better, than worse. By quiting all D, or as much as I could, following the MP, I was able to get over a diagnosis of osteopenia by DEXA machine (before & after); get over a dx of granulotmatous disease as "evidence by the depositing of calcium in the soft tissue of my chest area (by x-ray); get over a thyroid condition called Wilson's temperature syndrome (use Google); get over arthritis in my hands, including getting rid of a "nodule" that had developed on a finger; and, my neuropathy in my feet has not increased any, but may have subsided some. Considering the NIH's "90% bacterial cells" composition of my body, I probably have some more work to do using the MP to get over some other symptoms that I have.

Sorry! I do not have time today to set straight some very popular ideas about D that I have read on this site as being true, but aren't. If you really want to learn, do read the articles at www.bacteriality.com (info gathered by two MP members), and do not overlook the links in the right hand column.

Also, spend the 11:44 minutes to view the video at http://www.youtube.com/user/DrTrevorMarshall Use the button just below the video to stop or backtrack to more fully understand what Marshall is saying or to understand the graphics.

The trouble is not "Lyme disease". The trouble is the soup or stew of bacteria causing a soup or stew of symptom or sets of symptoms, given the name "Th1 inflammation". We need to re-enable the innate immune system via the gaining control of the VDR again. Forget supplements!!! But do stop the intake of so-called "vitamin" D. It is a steroid, not a vitamin. Would you take Prednisone on a regular basis?

I apologize if I have been abrupt. I have some things to do this holiday weekend. Some of the things said herein, are "old wives medical ideas", and not worth much.

Wishing all wellness!
Dark Vader

P.S A very cheap test for the "Th1 inflammation" condition, is how you feel after getting lots of sun, maybe as far as two weeks after the lots of sun, and, if you have been given a dx of cataracts. The sun may cause your hormones to swing rather violently, and you will feel lousy. The cataracts may be the body's natural defense to cut down the amount of 125D hormone produced by the body.
P.S.S. If you will do some research, you will find that there are some animals that never see the light of day, and yet their bodies produce sufficient 125D hormone (the necessary D).

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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nomoremuscles
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"If you will do some research, you will find that there are some animals that never see the light of day, and yet their bodies produce sufficient 125D hormone (the necessary D)."


Sure. There are animals who do not need vitamin C either, maybe we should stop our consumption of that one as well?

Sounds good!

Sea turtles only eat jelly fish, so using that reasoning maybe we only need jelly fish, too? Maybe we should ask the big boss about that one?


Vader, this is a whole lot of MP nonsense you are throwing out here. If you choose to believe all the MP patchwork of theories, and then choose to take it a step farther and assume these theories, stitched together, are the long-searched for holy grail that connects all of human illness ... well, that's fine. You are free to do so. But to speak of these theories as though they are proven fact is another thing entirely.

Not every D deficient chronically Ill person has raised 1,25 D (though the MP folks have a dozen ways around this too). And for those who do -- as far as I know, despite MP claims to the contrary, other than in the case of sarc no one knows what it means just yet. Perhaps chronically ill patients are converting 25-D to 1,25-D at a rapid rate in order to make additional antimicrobial peptides to kill the bugs, and then to amp up production of anti-inflammatory cytokines in order to cool off the mess. How do you know that that's not what's happening? Maybe the benicar turns off the immune response, not on. Maybe the benicar allows the inflammatory cascade cool off for some patients. I say some patients because, based on the varied patient response, it obviously does not work as suggested by MP administrators.

I've been watching this MP movement since somewhere around 2003. I have seen the MP unfold with grandiose theories, all of which were assembled AFTER they experimented with the minocycline and benicar (I believe they may have started with plaq and doxy). In other words, they built this entire hypothetical patchwork as an explanation based on what (they decided to believe) was happening after taking these meds -- they didn't build the protocol on the science.

You said:

"We need to re-enable the innate immune system via the gaining control of the VDR again."

Umm, sure. Why don't you tell us how to do that? Would that be by taking benicar, which acts as a "VDR agonist" and displaces 25-D or 1,25-D? If so, how do you know that? Because MP says so? It seems like this would be pretty easy to show in a lab -- has it been done? The MP has been around a long time now; have there been ANY experiments showing any of it to be true? Oh wait! We don't need any experiments, because we have a computer model that says it's true! And that model has been peer reviewed and repeated? Oh, wait, never mind -- that hasn't happened either.

Even easier, have there been any experiments conducted to measure the immune responses of patients taking or avoiding vitamin D? As many others have pointed out, how about a simple experiment starting with baseline values of two groups, then have one group supplement with D and bring their values up. And have the other group bring their levels down to zero by avoidance and cave dwelling? And then test both groups for immune function, various cytokines and chemokines and so forth? That sounds pretty simple?

What about doing the same thing using benicar? Has that been done yet? (And if money is the limiting factor, the stumbling block, then perhaps all those trips to Hungary and China Timbuktu to speak could take a backseat to some solid lab work for a while?)

Surely the folks at those web sites you mention as sources would not be irresponsible enough to push these ideas as FACT without compelling evidence? Could they?

And what about the patients?

Yes, we know there are successes, a handful of super responders (most, but not all, to my knowledge have been sarc patients). For them it is great, and like you, they often scream the benefits from the rooftops. I am thrilled that they have been helped so much by this therapy. But then there are many plodders, improving somewhat but nothing great, nothing spectacular. And finally, what about all the non responders, or those who get worse -- how does the MP explain them? I mean, other than by extending the timeframe back to health from the original 12-18 months to -- what is it now, 5 years, 10 years? Is it fair or ethical to patients, some of whom have been living in near dark for five-plus years with limited result, to tell them that it is just a matter of time, dangling this hope, when in fact no one knows what's going on inside their bodies? (And please PLEASE don't tell me that this is purely a herx.)

And getting back to the D thing ...

According to MP, if a patient improves with added D then that means it's acting "like a steroid" and turning off the immune system. Okay fine. But if a patient gets worse with D, well, then that means the same thing. Humph! So, who, exactly, other than dead patients, would not be a candidate for the MP? Sounds like the double talk of a certain hedge fund manager.

Is it possible that D is not immuno-suppressive, but immuno-modulatory, and that it has a much more plastic role in immunity than the simple on/off (black/white) model proposed by MP? And that we do not yet know what is happening?

I just hope that patients take some time to study and read (more than just MP sites) before jumping in. And I wish that MP followers would refrain from representing a hypothesis as fact.

I will not respond again on this thread. I have wasted too much energy on MP already.

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Dark Vader
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Well, someone doesn't like the MP hypothesis!!!

And, I did call it a hypothesis, not fact. I am not the LORD so do not know for sure. Although, I do think of it as fact... for me. It is up to you, the individual, to decide. My good results says more than the negativity that you propose.... to me!!!

Tell me what have the med docs come up with since about the 1860's that really works for explaining chronic illnesses of unknown cause?

Why has the HIH proposed that we are composed with as much 90% bacteria? from the DNA studies?

For a fact.... the MP thinking has only been in the public forum since the Summer of 2002. It took from 1983 until 2005 for Dr. Barry Marshall, M.D., and his microbiologist cohort, to be awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine for their discovery about what h.plyori bacteria do. I will wager that you will be long time dead before the MP is proven beyond any doubt for such doubting people as you.

I am very willing to be a guinea pig for this new and believable hypothesis then to continue to be subject to the experimentation of the LLMDs (which four plus years did nothing for me) and the OMC (orthodox medical community), for the symptoms that I have experienced and have gotten rid of with the MP. Having experienced three spine surgeries that were supposed to get rid of some of my problems, and did nothing more than enrich the surgeon and the hospital staff, I will stand at the roof tops and say, "Hey! there is another hypothesis that seems to work better! at least for some people. You might just be one of those persons."

Good luck!

Wishing all wellness!
Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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Dark Vader
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Well, someone doesn't like the MP hypothesis!!!

And, I did call it a hypothesis, not fact. I am not the LORD so do not know for sure. Although, I do think of it as fact... for me. It is up to you, the individual, to decide. My good results says more than the negativity that you propose.... to me!!!

Tell me what have the med docs come up with since about the 1860's that really works for explaining chronic illnesses of unknown cause?

Why has the HIH proposed that we are composed with as much 90% bacteria? from the DNA studies?

For a fact.... the MP thinking has only been in the public forum since the Summer of 2002. It took from 1983 until 2005 for Dr. Barry Marshall, M.D., and his microbiologist cohort, to be awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine for their discovery about what h.plyori bacteria do. I will wager that you will be long time dead before the MP is proven beyond any doubt for such doubting people as you.

I am very willing to be a guinea pig for this new and believable hypothesis then to continue to be subject to the experimentation of the LLMDs (which four plus years did nothing for me) and the OMC (orthodox medical community), for the symptoms that I have experienced and have gotten rid of with the MP. Having experienced three spine surgeries that were supposed to get rid of some of my problems, and did nothing more than enrich the surgeon and the hospital staff, I will stand at the roof tops and say, "Hey! there is another hypothesis that seems to work better! at least for some people. You might just be one of those persons."

Good luck!

Wishing all wellness!
Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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nomoremuscles
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Vader, I know I said I wouldn't respond but I wanted to say I am very glad you are doing so well. I wanted to be sure you understand that I don't have anything against you, just with what you were saying.
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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by emla999/Lyme:
quote:
Originally posted by ninjaphire:

Also, K2 is needed to activate GMP which reduces arterial calcification, which is a biofilm.(Few mg of MK4 = No more dental plaque!!).

I wonder if taking Vitamin K2 would also help reduce or dissolve biofilms in other areas of the body?

.

I do know that I used to get some sort of herx from 10mg of MK-4. It felt a lot like a niacin flush, but it lasted longer, perhaps an hour or so.
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Pinelady
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I have a theory that what ever you crave is what

your body needs. Look up what those foods have and

you can deduce what you are lacking. Except the

sugar, I know us lymers crave that.

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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TX Lyme Mom
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O2BTickFree2,
I've been concerned about what might have caused your pancreatitis, so I've spent a good bit of time searching for info about it for you.

I didn't find very much about pancreatitis in relation to vit D in particular -- well, I did find one tidbit relating hypervitaminosis D to pancreatitis at the MP-KB website, but it didn't have any reference citations. Here's that link, in case you would like to see it:

http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:diseases:sarcoidosis#hypervitaminosis-d

(I hope the yellow highlighting comes through to make it easy for you to see, but if not, then look inside the box for the word "pancreatitis.")

Also, this next link lists pancreatitis as a sign of hypervitaminosis D resulting from Rx Rocaltrol given for hypoparathyroidism:

http://www.rxlist.com/rocaltrol-drug.htm

Nevertheless, I'm not satisfied that we know enough about it to say for sure if this could be the cause of your pancreatitis or not, so I did another search for you via Google for causes of pancreatitis. Maybe you will pick up a few helpful clues, so here's the link to the results from my Google search for your convenience in seeking answers for your worrisome condition:

http://www.google.com/search?q=pancreatitis+more+causes_risk_factors&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7_____en

This is about the best that I can do for you. I spent a couple of hours trying to find reliable info for you since I doubt that you are well enough to be able to spend very much time at the computer right now looking for your own answers.

I will add one more thing though, based on our daughter's experience with pseudocholelithiasis (pseudo gall stones) caused by IV Rocephin. It was very painful for her and pretty scary too because we realized that if a gall stone were to get stuck in the bile ducts that it could cause pancreatitis.

These kinds of "pseudo" gall stones are caused by a calcium nidus, around which bile sludging occurs, and the Rocephin contributes somehow to the formation of the calcium nidus which initiates the problem -- but that's all that I can remember about it without spending a couple of more hours (which I don't have this weekend) reviewing all of that material.

The same principle about nano-calcium deposits as the initiating event for gall stones could perhaps apply here though if the supplemental vit D which you had been taking might have caused a similar calcium deposit in the bile ducts which connect to the pancreas and that this might have set off your episode of pancreatitis. Mind you, this is pure speculation on my part -- nothing more, and nothing less -- with the usual legalistic disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, so seek your own doctor's advice.

If so, then that possiblity brings us full circle back to my original motto, quoted above, which I'll repeat again here: "If in doubt, leave it out" -- meaning leave out the vit D, that is, as a precaution, since we don't really know for sure if it might have been a contributing factor or not in causing your recent bout of pancreatitis.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Al:
I'd look at other things before jumping to conclusions about Vit.D
Canada has proclaimed that their science has found that 70% of all Cancers are the result of
subnormal amounts of Vit D.
Other things that fit your thinking are,
Cell phones, Plastics, genetic foods, Pesticides
and more.

Sorry for the long delay in responding to A1's concerns about cancer in relation to vit D, but I was much more concerned with Q2BTickFree's recent bout with pancreatitis, and I've spent several hours on this busy holiday weekend doing research to try to help him out as best that I could since his situation is acute and urgent.


There is lots and lots of "hype" out there about cancer and low vit D, but none of the scientific articles published about it are very convincing, IMO. Most of them are written with conditional and subjunctive verb forms, and those papers are peppered with lots of uses of speculative words like "perhaps" and "maybe." (If articles about Lyme disease were written in this same pseudo-scientific style, they would never be accepted for publication, as we all know only too well.)

Considering the vested economic self-interests in these publications on the merits of vit D to prevent cancer, I don't place much confidence in any of them, due to their almost universal lack of scientific integrity.

The race is on now to find newer and improved forms of vit D -- namely, 1,25-D. But so far, all of these efforts have proven to be too toxic and too dangerous, so none of them have made it past the clinical trials safely in order to be approved by the FDA and brought onto the commerical market. Needless to say, that doesn't stop these hopeful entrepeneurs (sp?) from continuing to publish their research in hopes of hitting the jackpot.

For example, I'll bet that not many of y'all are aware that the royalties from the patents on synthetic vit D have paid for a $35M biochemistry building at the Univ of Wisconsin, which holds the patent on this invention - although I observe that the Univ of Wisc has changed its webpage and that they no longer boast about this lucrative aspect of their famous vit D discovery anymore.

http://www.warf.ws/about/index.jsp?cid=26


That's where all the psuedo-scientific hype over the merits of vit D is coming from. It's the profit motive, pure and simple. Keep that point in mind whenever evaluation them, and do watch out for those little words "maybe" and "might" and "perhaps" which give it all away.


The important point for us to focus on here is that there is another side to the controversy about cancer and vitamin D. Here is just one link to help you get started, but it will lead you to many other good sources of information on this same subject:

http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:pathogenesis:vitamind:cancer

If that's not enough to satisfy you, then here are a couple of more good links which discuss the question about cancer in relation to vitamin D:

http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/#7

http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2009/vitaminD0109.htm


This next statement might sound rude, and I don't intend it to be that way, but for the sake of this conversation, I would sincerely appreciate it if anyone who responds to the concern about cancer in relation to vit D, if you would at least be courteous and considerate enough to take the time to read the material in these 3 links above first before proceeding to argue an opposing point of view.

Otherwise, your comments belong under a separate topic, created by you, specifically for discussing that viewpoint, instead of hijacking this topic to those ends.

I would like for this topic to remain focused on broader and more general concerns about the pros and cons of vit D supplementation and not let this topic degenerate into a brawl over cancer, which deserves its own special subject heading, if anyone so desires.

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djf2005
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Yes, please do continue the debate on vit D and the pros/cons of it's supplementation.

My levels are "beautiful" according to my Dr. but recently I have been considering adding Vit D to my protocol.

All these conflicting reports/angles/opinions are helpful.

Please continue

Derek

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

[email protected]

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Myco
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This is such crap. I spent years studying the MP and I fully understand the concept of low dose pulsed abx. It has been working for patients on the road back protocol long before Marshall ever came around and supposedly improved it with cave dwelling and the addition of benicar. I know just as many lyme, lupus, etc...patients who got well pulsing doxy, zith etc..without benicar as those who are doing well on the MP. I have seen just as many relapse going off the MP and the road back also. It is not a cure as he claims. Maybe one day. Maybe for some.

The pathogenic soup concept makes sense for SOME, but I still say that I don't remember ever being ill UNTIL I WAS BITTEN BY A TICK. Others with CFS, SARC may be different, but that's just me.

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Dark Vader
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I suspect that at least some of you can believe that low dosages of lead, mercury and arsenic can be harmful if not lethal to a human. At least the people at the EPA think so. The dosage does not have to be large...only small over time, because the product builds up in the system. The FDA have removed much, if not most, of those products from our being able to digest them in any form.

May I suggest that you do a search using Google on the words "Pleaant Valley Farm Supply". It is a firm in CA. When you get to their site, use their search engine on the word "Quintox". Click on the appropriate links to see what the active ingredient is, and how it does it job. Then, think how close those actions are to what we call osteoporosis and the depositing of calcium on arteries that helps to cause the build up of cholesterol that helps/cause heart attacks and strokes. And, some people say that the active ingredient is good for humans!?!?

If you go further in your research on that product, you will find that the patent is owned by WARF... (Un of) Wisconsin Alumni Reseach Foundation. There is LOTS of money to be made if one can only convince the populance that it is good for them....based on some outdated "research" that used some "outdated" tools.

I used that product as was/is "recommended", and was spiraling down with more and more bad symptoms. Then, when I avoided that product, I have seen my hsCRP (high sensitivity C-Reactive protein) test score go from an average of 0.6 to 0.8 to "less than 0.1" [and the lab said that they re-did the test to be sure of the result], which the Harvard Med School and the Cleveland Clinic think is excellent.

Most people will not believe what their doctor does not understand. They leave it up to their med docs to "learn" first. So, keep listening to those med doc ideas.... and you will go downhill even further, I would wager. But do not think that a short haul making you feel good is really making you better for the long haul.

Good luck to you all!

Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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Dark Vader
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Myco, IMHO, there was an equilibrium within your body's community of pleomorphic/biofilm bacteria [or whatever is the "stuff" that make up the up to 90% of bacterial cells that the NIH is saying make up your body now that they have done some studying of the DNA material within your body]. Then, you were bitten by a tick that had some Bb, or other "villian", this upset that equilibrium within the bacterial community.... and you felt it!!!!! and probably, are still feeling the affects.

Good luck with your getting better with the old medical thinking!!!!

Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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Cold Feet
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Dark,

I think you meant Peaceful Valley, I found this:

http://www.groworganic.com/default.html?welcome=T&theses=6342689

And for those that care about a blissful exit to rats

Quintox Mouse & Rat Bait (Pail of 50 Bags)
This item (PAB061) is not currently available. No longer available from the manufacturer -- click here to see part #PAB063.

Mouse & Rat Bait Active ingredient in Quintox is cholecalciferol or vitamin D3. When ingested, it mobilizes calcium from the rodent's bones into its bloodstream, producing hypercalcemia and heart failure. Quintox acts faster than anticoagulants, causing death in 2 to 4 days, with feeding stopping immediately once the rodent eats a lethal dose. Testing has shown this bait to be highly effective, even against anticoagulant resistant rodent populations. Very little risk of secondary poisoning (e.g., if your cat or dog catches a poisoned mouse). However, pets and children should be kept from being able to access and/or consume the bait (please note that rodents may move the bait around, so exercise vigilance and caution if pets and/or children are a factor).

Why is it no longer available?! Good gosh, that's quite a find!? What the heck?

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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Dark Vader
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Hi, Cold Feet, thanks! for setting me straight. [Smile] Yes, that is what I meant... Peaceful Valley. Typo!

I got in touch with Bell Labs in Madison, Wisc., the manufacturer. I had bought some of the product to make sure that I would always have some to show folks, if needed. Bell did some re-packaging of the product. It is still available.

I have had some folks argue with me that a little may be OK; that what is used for the rats is a much higher dose. But, even a very little arsenic, lead and mercury does harm, it is known. And, the product is not proven beyond a doubt to be safe because no one seems to be interested in really studying the product. Almost all "new studies" just regurgitate what has gone before, if you will look at the words very carefully that are used in those "new studies". As far as it being needed to prevent rickets, the first "reason" for taking it, a USDA study on their research site that you can find today, says that a lack of it does not cause rickets, a new, circa 2004, study has found. And, a study at the Mass Gen Hospital says that a lack of phosphorous is involved in causing rickets.

Now, for some detective work. Go back to the early 1900's when rickets was very prominent... could it have been a lack of drinking milk, or drinking defective/watered-down milk, which was the prevalent product sold by the commercial dairies of the time, which would have caused the rickets. Then, when it was announced in the late 1920's or 1930's that milk that was fortified with "vitamin" D would prevent rickets, mothers started to get their children to drink milk more, and milk that had better quality control mandated by government, thus ensuring a supply of both calcium and phosphorous. Perhaps, the so-called "vitamin" D had nothing to do with the preceived decreased in rickets. But no one thought about it all. WARF certainly has not wanting to give up those millions of dollars in good benefits to its operations.

However, you and I and most people have suffered from this medical old wives' tale that "vitamin" D is good for a person. It has shutdown or hampered the operation of the VDR, causing an increase in numerous chronic illnesses of unknown cause. So simple a reason, and, right under our noses!!!

The article talked about earlier on this thread was an investigation into allergies, and how they have increased since the advent of using "vitamin" D.... in Europe, mostly.

Might there not be more REAL investigation into what the steroid, misnamed a vitamin in the 1920's, really does to the human body.... by a group not having any financial stake in promoting it, as happens so often with these "new studies"?

A Canadian reporter found out that one of the biggest promoters today of the steroid misnamed "vitamin" D, Professor R. Veight's wife is the President of a company that increased her sales some $600,000 or thereabout, the day after the Canadian federal government increased the recommended dose of daily D not too long ago.

Yes, that is correct, D2 or D3 is not a true vitamin. It is called that since the 1920's. However, it has since been termed a STEROID if you will research the product.

Giving everyone some things to think about, and research.

Wishing all wellness!
Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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emla999/Lyme
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We need to put the LD50 of Vitamin D3 into more perspective.

Humans are considerably larger than mice. So, lets see what the LD50 would be for Vitamin D3/cholecalciferol in the averaged size human.

Animal data indicates that the oral LD50 for Vitamin D3/cholecalciferol in dogs is about 88 mg/kg, or 3,520,000 IU/kg.....That's 3.52 million IU/kg.

Page 13 on the link bellow:

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/mentalhealth/wellness/vitamin-d-mental-illness.pdf


That would be the equivalent to a 140 pound adult taking 224,000,0000 IU's of Vitamin D3/cholecalciferol in a single dose. Yes, 224 million IU's.


Now, the average person will probably take no more than somewhere between 1,000 to 10,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 per day as a supplement. And that dosage is far and I mean very far short of the LD50 dose.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by emla999/Lyme:

Now, the average person will probably take no more than somewhere between 1,000 to 10,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 per day as a supplement. And that dosage is far and I mean very far short of the LD50 dose.

Yes, but don't forget that Vit D is fat-soluble, meaning that it's stored in the body indefinitely. There are very strict limits on dosages of the other fat-soluble vitamins, A & K. There should be stricter limits on the dosages permitted for vit D -- except that the infamous Vit D Research Council has done such an outstanding job of promoting vit D as beneficial that no one stops to question it anymore.

The Vit D Research Council is the non-profit educational arm set up to protect the vested economic interests of those who benefit from the royalties from the sale of vit D. I consider it to be nothing but a "front organization" for this purpose, but I'll admit that I'm cynical about it.

I recognize that some of these individuals are true believers in their cause. I met one such proponent of vit D at the AAEM conf. in Phoenix last month. He was one of the invited speakers, and his required disclosure statement indicated that he had "nothing to declare."

I wish that I had quizzed him a little more when I spoke with him briefly after his talk in order to try to discern his true motives, but there wasn't a good opportunity to do that -- so I merely offered him a handout with alternate info instead, which I'm sure he promptly tossed, without so much as a glance at it.


The FDA held hearings about vit D several months ago, but I haven't heard what the outcome of those hearings were or if any decision has been made yet. Does anyone else know how that turned out?

I hate to think that the FDA might actually raise their recommendations for the daily dosage of vit D, based on the fact that there is such a strong push for this change coming from the proponents who have vested economic interests at stake. I don't have much confidence in the FDA though, based on their track record of being too closely aligned with the pharmaceutical industry.

Follow the money. You'll be able to discern the truth from the "noise" about the merits vs. the demerits of vit D if you just follow the money trail. 'Nuff said.

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kam
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tx lyme mom...good to see you posting. i was just thinking of you the other day.
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Dark Vader
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Emla999/Lyme,

Would you be willing to take that amount of arsenic, lead or mercury each and every day of your life as a supplement, and have it dumped into the foods that you purchase because some "Council" (probably with financial ties wiht the product) has said that it was good for you? That amount is ONLY a very small amount, as you say!

Or, would you want some very real, up-to-date research done over say five, ten, fifteen or twenty years to see what the cumulate effect will be?

I experimented on myself with the cutting out of all supplementation with D, and reduced my natural-with-D foods.... and got rid of a diagnosis of osteopenia (on the way to being osteoporosis) after about two and a half years. The doc used DEXA machine testing to diagnose me before and after. The last report said that I had increased my BMD (bone mineral density) in my left femur by 31.8%. Chest x-rays done before and after also said that I had gotten rid of some granulomatous disease, "as evidence by the depositing of calcium in the 'soft tissue of my chest area'".

FYI

Wishing all wellness!!!
Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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Cold Feet
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OK, now I am intrigued. I read the warnings on the Quintox label and found this:

NOTICE TO PHYSICIAN: If serum calcium levels are elevated, treatment with Calcitonin is effective in reducing calcium to normal levels. Continue monitoring serum calcium and treat as necessary for hypercalcemia (Reference, AMA Drug Evaluations, Third Edition (1977), Chapter 16, pp. 248-251).

So I wondered what the hell Calcitonin was all about, then found this (excerpted from Wikipedia):

Treatments

Calcitonin can be used therapeutically for the treatment of hypercalcemia or osteoporosis.
Oral calcitonin may have a chondroprotective role in osteoarthritis (OA), according to data in rats presented in December, 2005, at the 10th World Congress of the Osteoarthritis Research Society International (OARSI) in Boston, Massachusetts. Although calcitonin is a known antiresorptive agent, its disease-modifying effects on chondrocytes and cartilage metabolisms have not been well established until now.

This new study, however, may help to explain how calcitonin affects osteoarthritis. ``Calcitonin acts both directly on osteoclasts, resulting in inhibition of bone resorption and following attenuation of subchondral bone turnover, and directly on chondrocytes, attenuating cartilage degradation and stimulating cartilage formation,'' says researcher Morten Karsdal, MSC, PhD, of the department of pharmacology at Nordic Bioscience in Herlev, Denmark. ``Therefore, calcitonin may be a future efficacious drug for OA.''[15]

Subcutaneous injections of calcitonin in patients suffering from mania resulted in significant decreases in irritability, euphoria and hyperactivity and hence calcitonin holds promise for treating bipolar disorder.[16] However no further work on this potential application of calcitonin has been reported.
_____________________________________________

My tiny brain is spinning, now juggling what I think I've learned about D; as well as calcium's role in diseases and even biofilms.

[dizzy]

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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Dark Vader
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Cold Feet, why think that calcium is disease/illness causing? Why not think of the dysregulation of the calcium as part of the disease process of the soup or stew of bacteria that cause a soup or stew of symptoms (or sets of symptoms)?

If you chase the calcium affects, you will only be using current methodology of pallitive medicine. Why not think in terms of curative medicine? controlling the invaders with the innate immune system?

But being candid, I am not sure that we will ever be "cured"... meaning, getting rid of the cause, bacteria, altogether. We are continuously taking in new crops of bacteria every minute of every day. I think that "cured" will come to mean that we have reached a point of equilibrium with the bacteria that causes no apparent symptoms or sets of symptoms, thus we "feel" good.

Remember, the NIH DNA (genomic) research teams have said that we may be composed of as much as 90% bacterial cells, from the evidence that they have come across looking at DNA in our bodies.

IMHO, the better way to attack the problem of not feeling good, and controlling the huge number of bacteria and other invaders in our bodies, is to activate the innate immune system as best as we can. That seems to mean not consuming things that turn "off" the innate immune system, such as the steroid "D", and perhaps other products containing CGA (chlorogenic acid--such as coffee, most tea, eggplants and even apples). It seems to be the 125D hormone that the VDR needs to code for the products that the innate immune system needs. However, only a very NARROW range of 125D hormone is needed or tolerated. Increase the 125D hormone too much, and you wound up with problems, too.

Yes, we have some learning to do as a society, and it won't be easy. There will be people who will be affected economically, and will resist with all of their might.

Wishing all wellness!!!
Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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emla999/Lyme
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quote:
Dark Vader said:

Would you be willing to take that amount of arsenic, lead or mercury each and every day of your life as a supplement, and have it dumped into the foods that you purchase because some "Council" (probably with financial ties wiht the product) has said that it was good for you?

If I was forced to swallow either a bottle filled with a hundred 400IU Vitamin D3 capsules vs swallowing a bottle of the same size filled with Mercury then I would choose to swallow the bottle filled with the Vitamin D3.


So, Dark Vader to answer your question....NO, I would not take the toxic heavy metals Arsenic, Lead and Mercury as a supplement because they are not essential to human health and they have been proven to be extremely toxic to humans even in tiny doses.

Now, on the other hand I consider Vitamin D to be an essential nutrient that is without toxicity when taken in the correct dosage and when taken in combination with other nutrients. Actually, my doctor had me to take about 15,000 IU's a day of Vitamin D3 for several weeks because according testing my 1,25-D levels were very low.

Note: On a few occasions I have taken 100,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 in a single day and once I even took 200,000 IU's in a single day with no apparent side effects.

And currently per request of my doctor I take 7,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 daily during the winter months to keep my 1,25-D levels within the normal range. I have been taking that dosage of Vitamin D3 for a few years now and I have experienced NO ill effects from that dosage. And I have experienced nothing but benefits.

If Vitamin D3 was as toxic as Mercury then I should be dead already. But fortunately I am still alive and feeling better than I have in previous years.

****I also take the Vitamin D3 in combination with other vitamins and minerals.

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djf2005
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Saying vit D is akin to mercury, lead, and the like is really quite silly. IMO

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

[email protected]

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Dark Vader
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IMHO, you both missed my point.... although I didn't make the point exactly tied together.

In the long run, D is toxic. There are people who have shown this to be true. But then that would be anecdotol for your med doc, since he didn't read it in one of the approved journals. And, some people talk about labor unions. [Smile]

Good luck with taking it!

Dark Vader

--------------------
Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by emla999/Lyme:
[QUOTE] ... Actually, my doctor had me to take about 15,000 IU's a day of Vitamin D3 for several weeks because according testing my 1,25-D levels were very low....

And currently per request of my doctor I take 7,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 daily during the winter months to keep my 1,25-D levels within the normal range.

Emla,
First Question: Which lab performed your 1,25-D measurement? Do you know if the blood sample was frozen during transport and kept frozen until it was tested?

The only labs that I know of that freeze the blood samples for 1,25-D are Quest and Clinical Pathology. Lab Corp does NOT freeze the blood samples for 1,25-D.

The reason I'm asking is that 1,25-D deteriorates rapidly unless the diagnostic lab requires that the blood sample be frozen promptly as soon as it is drawn.


Second Question: Do you know how "low" your 1,25-D actually was? Did you ask for a copy of the lab results so that you could verify your doctor's interpretation of the results?


According to the 2006 Merck Manual, the normal range for 1,25-D is between 20-45 pg/ml (or 48-108 pmol/L).

Here's a link to more info about interpretation of 1,25-D norms. It contains reference citations to studies which correlate closely with the normal range found in the Merck Manual:

http://mpkb.org/doku.php/home:tests:125d#reference_range_for_1_25-d

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Cold Feet
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Dark Vader, good points earlier, but on your ``perhaps'' list: I aint giving up coffee or apples; especially since I continue to get better on two Benicar daily. Next, you'll be asking me to give up red wine! [Wink]

So, all...a few tough questions. Please re-read the post from nomoremuscles, then reconsider this:

1. If vitamin D dysregulation exists, how does it manifest itself? How do you test for it? (Before you answer, read the next question!)

2. If vitamin-secosteroid-prohormone D is stored in tissue (like bugs?!), how accurate or diagnostic can a blood test really be?

3. Isn't is good to have at least nominal amounts of D in the body? That's what I've seen and read. I think you may lose a LOT of credibility if you say otherwise. E.g., the ``cave dwelling'' idea hurt some patients, while making other sideline observers wonder about the sanity of the protocol.

Don't get me wrong - the MP got me better for sure. I've searched high and low for understanding a few remaining questions, but I finally realized some of these issues have no resolution right now. And I am totally OK with that.

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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Myco
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I wish the MP patients would stay where they belong: On the MP website.

So passive aggressive. Good luck getting well! And so on. Unreal and downright rude IMOP.

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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by Myco:
I wish the MP patients would stay where they belong: On the MP website.

So passive aggressive. Good luck getting well! And so on. Unreal and downright rude IMOP.

This topic is NOT about the MP, as I have tried to make crystal clear from the very beginning. It is about the question of whether supplementation with vit D is beneficial or detrimental.

Please, let's try to stay focused on the main question at hand because it is important, and let's try to be civil towards one another in the process.

It's OK to agree to disagree with one another respectfully, but insults are distracting, unhelpful, and unnecessary.

Please refrain from participating if you do not have any genuine interest in this topic.

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Cold Feet
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What did I say that was offensive?!

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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Myco
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I am talking about DARTH VADER's passive aggressive comments.
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ping
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Vader:
Most people will not believe what their doctor does not understand. They leave it up to their med docs to "learn" first. So, keep listening to those med doc ideas.... and you will go downhill even further, I would wager. But do not think that a short haul making you feel good is really making you better for the long haul.
Dark Vader

TO TX LYME MOM: Thank you for the posts on Vit. D. I'm very interested in this discussion and will attempt to keep up with all you offer, although I'll likely not be posting regularly. I definitely agree that the huge amounts of money involved have almost complete influence over what information, or misinformation flows freely to the public. Please keep posting!

Dark Vader - Although I understand what you're saying in the statement above and even agree with you to some extent, please do not paint us all with the same brush. There are some of us here who do massive research and don't trust anything simply because the person making the statement is an M.D. I've stood toe-to-toe with my LLMD's more than once because what they've said or tx being offered did not seem justified or convincing and insisted on certain abx and protocols, instead of the conveyor-belt of IV Rocephin that was standard tx at the time. Bottom line - Physicians, like many others, offer a service and I think it would be far more beneficial to all of us if we viewed all medical practice that way. What happens if you don't like the service? Go somewhere else.

Meanwhile, there are people like me for whom conventional tx has worked very well. I'm not disputing MP and it's validity, as I've known a couple of people who were somewhat helped by it and don't know enough people on MP, in general, to form an opinion, either pro or con. Hope it's become easier for all.

I AM SOLELY INTERESTED IN THE VITAMIN D QUESTIONS AND INFO. Would like to see us stay on this subject, as Tx Lyme Mom has expressed and not be burdened with colorful, patronizing statements about arsenic, mercury, Koch's Postulates (which we actually do know about) and King Louis of Pasteur; who I love, but wouldn't have wanted to be one of the people on whom he tried out his live rabies vaccine. [Eek!]

--------------------
ping
"We are more than containers for Lyme"

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TX Lyme Mom
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Ping,
Thank you for salvaging this topic. I didn't want to see it end on a bad note, especially when it's obvious that there have been some misunderstandings.

Afterall, we all wear blinders of some shade or other -- meaning that we view the world through the aura of our own perosnal experiences and the limits of our own background knowledge base.

Thus, I was able to "get it" when Dark Vader used heavy metal toxicity with mercury and lead, etc. as an analogy for toxicity from vit D -- not a very good analogy, as he admitted, but both substances are known to be "toxic."

In fact, mercury is known to be capable of triggering autoimmunity. I didn't know that until I warmed a chair at the AAEM medical conference recently and took notes about it because this little factoid was somewhat of a surprise to me.

Also, my own perspective on toxins and toxicity has been influenced greatly by Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker's books and writings and lectures, so my concept of toxins and toxicity has expanded considerably, based on what I've gleaned from his teachings.

I regret that Myco seems to have missed the essential point that Dark Vader was trying to make, so I'll copy and paste a couple of DV's quotes again below for extra emphasis, just to be sure that no one else misses his important take-home message:

"I experimented on myself with the cutting out of all supplementation with D, and reduced my natural-with-D foods.... and got rid of a diagnosis of osteopenia (on the way to being osteoporosis) after about two and a half years. The doc used DEXA machine testing to diagnose me before and after. The last report said that I had increased my BMD (bone mineral density) in my left femur by 31.8%. Chest x-rays done before and after also said that I had gotten rid of some granulomatous disease, "as evidence by the depositing of calcium in the 'soft tissue of my chest area'".

And this quote from Dark Vader, edited by myself by inserting [vit D] in brackets after the words "that product" for added clarity.

"I used that product [vit D] as was/is "recommended", and was spiraling down with more and more bad symptoms. Then, when I avoided that product, I have seen my hsCRP (high sensitivity C-Reactive protein) test score go from an average of 0.6 to 0.8 to "less than 0.1" [and the lab said that they re-did the test to be sure of the result], which the Harvard Med School and the Cleveland Clinic think is excellent."


Likewise, I understand the frustration that enthusiastic MPers such as Dark Vader and Cold Feet feel whenever friends and relatives who know them and who have witnessed their improvements aren't open-minded enough to "get it" about the dangers of vit D in our food chain.

Personally, I'm feeling the very same frustration myself right now because the only store in my small town that used to carry vit D-FREE milk has switched to another brand, making it much harder for me to satisfy Hubby's desire for D-free milk without added inconvenience. It was their best seller, too, according to the store manager, but their warehouse changed suppliers and there wasn't anything the store manager could do to accommodate me. Now, that is frustrating -- really, really frustrating.

To be honest, this was a part of my motive in starting this topic -- ie, to create more public awareness about the harm done by vit D supplementation in our food chain. Personally, I would prefer to see that mega-doses of vit D be more tightly controlled by the FDA so that it could only be sold as a prescription item, as dosages of the other two fat-soluble vitamins, A and K, are similarly controlled.

Likewise, I wanted to try to counter the bad advice coming from our LLMDs who have been "brainwashed" (my term for it) by the distributors who are pushing vit D in the form of mega-doses of fish oil capsules.

Keep in mind that I've been attending medical conferences for a very long time and I've seen the booths in the exhibit halls at these conferences, so I am keenly aware of how much pressure there is on these busy doctors to recommend various products.

Unfortunately, these busy doctors don't have enough time to spend researching for themselves whether it's a good idea to be pushing so much vit D as the panacea for all chronic ills. They hear only the "hype" which drowns out the voices of reason which caution against it.

Afterall, there's no money to be made by telling doctors NOT to urge their patients to spend money on an unnecessary supplement such as vit D -- not to mention the fact that these same doctors often sell these supplements directly to their own patients right out of their offices.

It's hard for them to be truly objective about it themselves while they are benefitting financially from these sales, also.

That's why patient education is so vitally important.

And that's also why we all need to be patient and kind with one another and try to listen to one another's personal experiences without being hypercritical of someone for taking the time to share their experiences with us.

And that's also why I have emphasized the importance of being willing to "agree to disagree" - agreeably and respectfully.

Misunderstandings are inevitable, especially in internet forums like this, when you cannot look directly at the other person in the eyes in order to pick up on his/her non-verbal clues about what s/he is trying to express.


Once again, Ping, thanks for helping to salvage this topic. It might amuse you to know that Cold Feet and Dark Vader are on friendly terms at the MP forum, even if it didn't sound like it here in this forum.

That's what happens though whenever folks are trying to grasp a new and confusing concept by teasing out those aspects of it which they don't fully comprehend. It might sound like an unfriendly argument to someone else who isn't already acquainted with them when it's really just an open and honest discussion about something perplexing which they are attempting to sort out.

We are all striving for the same goal ultimately -- namely, optimal health for every person in the group.

So, let's all take a deep breath and cut each other some slack if somebody chooses a poor analogy to try to make a point -- and try to see the humor in it whenever someone has a temporary case of "hoof in mouth" disease, especially when that person apologizes for it after recognizing the goof.

[ 12-01-2009, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: TX Lyme Mom ]

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ping
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TX Lyme Mom:

I spoke with a couple of my friends in Houston last night who have followed your research for a few years now. Of course, we all agree to disagree when needed, but all of them state that the majority of your work has merit and one in particular says you have oodles of practical experience that should be tapped as much as possible. I hope you will afford my taking advantage of that tapping...

Before returning to the subject of Vit. D, I want to make sure that all the people reading this thread understand that I am not attempting to counter any advice coming from our LLMDs. This would only bring yet another storm of controversy we can all do without and serve to cause even more confusion regarding various treatments, etc. Each person must bear the responsibility of researching and deciding whether or not the individual path prescribed for them, or of their own choosing is valid and suits their needs. That being said, I, personally will tell you that I am opposed to mega-dosing, or even the use of the vast majority of supplements, unless I show a clear deficiency in some area (which I've yet to show) and think that supplement manufacturers are a large part of the big money hype. Yes, I use one or 2, on occasion to relieve obvious problems (TD MgCl) and others I've tried (like fish oil) I dropped within a month of starting them because of either no apparent results, or in some cases, adverse results (esp. multi-vitamins). It's a waste of money, in my singular and unimportant opinion. Back to the subject...

I've not had time to read all your links, but have read a couple. One of my friends advised that she didn't have an answer to my question with regard to a blurb in one of Dark Vader's posts above: Why is it necessary to rid your diet of foods that contain naturally occuring Vitamin D? Is this strictly a part of MP, or is it being advocated across the board? The addition of Vitamin D (& A) in milk and other items, I can understand the position you're taking, but what about the natural form(s)? If you've got a relatively short answer (or link), this would be preferable to you taking too much of your time in explanation of all the mechanisms involved, as my friends have already tried this.

I am currently trying to formulate a plan to eliminate food / drink items containing added D, but not sure if or why I should avoid it if it's a natural by-product, for lack of a better word.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

--------------------
ping
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Myco
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TX Lyme Mom - I missed nothing.
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:
Originally posted by ping:
TX Lyme Mom:


I've not had time to read all your links, but have read a couple. One of my friends advised that she didn't have an answer to my question with regard to a blurb in one of Dark Vader's posts above: Why is it necessary to rid your diet of foods that contain naturally occuring Vitamin D? Is this strictly a part of MP, or is it being advocated across the board?

The addition of Vitamin D (& A) in milk and other items, I can understand the position you're taking, but what about the natural form(s)? If you've got a relatively short answer (or link), this would be preferable to you taking too much of your time in explanation of all the mechanisms involved, as my friends have already tried this.

I am currently trying to formulate a plan to eliminate food / drink items containing added D, but not sure if or why I should avoid it if it's a natural by-product, for lack of a better word.

Thanks for your vote of confidence, Ping.

You are right. The elimination of foods that contain vit D naturally isn't necessary unless you are following the MP, and then experience shows that it makes a huge differencefor anyone who is taking Benicar at MP dosage levels -- but that's altogether another ball game.

Even folks who are still on the MP find that after a couple of years, they no longer have to be as utterly strict with their diets or with sun avoidance as they do at first. This was our daughter's experience also, and I walked every step of the way with her, so I concur that it's the effect of the Rx Benicar (an MP medication) which makes it absolutely necessary to avoid these sources of natrually occurring vit D, in addition to avoiding all sources of synthetic vit D.

As a personal example, prior to the MP our daughter had observed that she couldn't tolerate fish oils anyway and that eggs really bothered her too and so did milk. Those are the main sources of vit D in most people's diets anyhow. So, she was a good candidate for the MP from the very get-go, and after she got back the results of her vit D lab tests, then it all started to make perfect sense to us in retrospect. Otherwise, I doubt that we ever would have figured it out by ourselves.

A really good self-test for whether or not you are this exquisitely sensitive to the effects of sunlight and vit D -- without having to afford the expense of laboratory testing for it -- is whether are not you are unusually sensitive to sunlight and to bright indoor fluorescent lights or to flickering lights or to on-coming headlights from cars when driving at night. If so, then you probably have dysregulated vit D-metabolism which will show up on the baseline laboratory tests for 25-D and 1,25-D levels.

Otherwise, don't worry about this aspect of dietary vit D at all. It's a moot point. I hope this answers your question satisfactorily and isn't too confusing for you (or for anyone else).

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ping
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quote:
Originally posted by TX Lyme Mom:
A really good self-test for whether or not you are this exquisitely sensitive to the effects of sunlight and vit D -- without having to afford the expense of laboratory testing for it -- is whether are not you are unusually sensitive to sunlight and to bright indoor fluorescent lights or to flickering lights or to on-coming headlights from cars when driving at night. If so, then you probably have dysregulated vit D-metabolism which will show up on the baseline laboratory tests for 25-D and 1,25-D levels.

Oh, yes ma'am. I most certainly have all these things, however, there are mitigating circumstances that might not all be related to D.

Sunlight - I'm very light skinned and have suffered more than one dangerous sunburn in my life and had several suspicious and ugly growths removed. I'm very conscience of not getting sun. Also, most of my tx was on minocycline, so that added to my avoidance. Thirdly, with respect to summertime, the heat intolerance has remained and is likely a permanent feature, even though most of my sx's are in remission. I hate the heat.

As for the rest, the fluorescent lights; not if they're placed correctly. Actually, I've asked that lights be added to my area. Lights flickering; not outside the norm, as everyone else in this place complains about this too. Headlights often bother me; my night vision is poor.

Keeping in mind that I was raised on a good, old-fashioned diet of lots of eggs with and in everything, it wouldn't surprise me if I have all sorts of toxins / dysregulations. Since we drank exclusively whole milk, I can't say what effect that might have had, however, as I got older, we went for the 1%; bad idea. I stopped eating eggs about six weeks ago and just recently stopped drinking milk altogether. If this is to have any effect, I'd ponder that it would take some time.

What I'm also trying to find out is where D is added to foods and not declared on the labels. For instance, I love full-fat, regular Dannon yogurt. Not the low fat or no fat. I've looked high and low on the tub label and don't see any additions, but I'm not a trusting person. Even cheeses, I'm suspicious that they might have been made with D+ milk products. I try to avoid any "fortified" cereal products, but still, one never knows.

If you have any suggestions of additional D+ possible food products, I'd be very appreciative if you'd share them with us. (Tapping....)

Thank you very much for your reply.

--------------------
ping
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