Topic: Where have we heard this before, IDSA perhaps
lymie_in_md
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Member # 14197
posted
There is a lot going on -- on the global warming front. It appears some scientists can't be trusted. But I thought the following quote so represents what we've found with the IDSA. I think we all can say an amen to it (hoping keebler, docdave and bettyg are reading it). I hope we can use it in describing how the IDSA can so misrepresent technical data just like the global warming crew.
quote:But what stood out most for me was extensive evidence of the hijacking of the "peer review" process to enforce global warming dogma. Peer review is the practice of subjecting scientific papers to review by other scientists with relevant expertise before they can be published in professional journals. The idea is to weed out research with obvious flaws or weak arguments, but there is a clear danger that such a process will simply reinforce groupthink. If it is corrupted, peer review can be a mechanism for an entrenched establishment to exclude legitimate challenges by simply refusing to give critics a hearing.
I put this in medical, because it is way of showing how the peer review process for all the journals can be corrupted. It is also ammunition for medical review boards.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Vermont_Lymie
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posted
This is offense to me, would you please express your political views elsewhere?
There are abundant scientific findings on the reality of climate change.
He is claiming that the global scientific consensus on the reality of climate change is similar to the IDSA's prevarication.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, it is the non-scientific climate "skeptics," funded by the coal industry, who have always tried to corrupt the process.
Please move this to "Off Topics" or remove it -- it is an offensive comparison to the suffering of lyme patients, who must endure the falsities of the IDSA 'scientists.'
Like climate skeptics, the IDSA would rather win the public relations campaign than rely on evidence and research.
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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If you care to share links to anything that may shed light on any historical context (i.e. insights into the Bayh-Dole Act)--
something that may have influenced the politics surrounding our plight as lyme and tick-borne disease sufferers, and our access to dx and tx, etc. I may interested in reading.
Although nothing new, self-interest has grown in academia to pathological proportions. At least over the last 30 years. And we are the shadow side of that--living, suffering and dying.
Please: do try to keep Politics in "Off Topic". Thanks.
Posts: 571 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
To those who have reported this post to moderators:
We understand what you are saying, but we can't delete posts based on differences of opinions. The poster has stated his reason to have it in the medical section - to start a discussion on what peer-review means. We are sorry if it offended anyone, but it does not break Lymenet rules. You are free, as some did, to make comments regarding your disagreement.
"The first amendment protects not only the speech we admire, but also speech we abhor." Senator Ted Kennedy
Posts: 127 | From USA | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
This does not belong here and it's stupidly inflammatory. It is NOT MEDICALLY RELEVANT, and it's a thinly disguised ploy to bring inappropriate politics here.
Anna you are wrong on this one. And you have now established a precedent for NOT deleting topics for the future.
Since this is here, I'll refute it.
It is the Global Warming deniers who are distorting the discussion. They ignore the actual scientific facts and then attack the peer review process because it doesn't come to the conclusion they want.
Those who don't want to "believe" in Global Warming have no good science to back their views up, so they resort to saying the facts they don't like are lies or corrupt. It is a very weak intellectual argument. But the only one left for those who don't like reality.
So, I guess Global Warming deniers are similar to Lyme Disease deniers, BOTH REFUSE TO CHANGE THEIR VIEWS WHEN CONFRONTED WITH OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE.
James
Posts: 872 | From New York City | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
James- This is not the first time I have been accused of being wrong and I am sure it won't be the last time. Sorry you disagree. Wed, Dec 2, 2009. Full moon.
Posts: 127 | From USA | Registered: Oct 2009
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Truthfinder
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Member # 8512
posted
I see Bob's point and it is a legitimate one: The corruption and politicization of `science' threatens the very core of mainstream medical knowledge and advancement.
It is the perversion of truth - at any level and on any subject - that leads to inappropriate responses. The IDSA is but one example that happens to be personal to all of us on this forum.
Both climate change and the IDSA offer us illustrations of how any `ultimate authority' can run roughshod over legitimate data, whether it is done intentionally or simply in error.
As for the climate change debate, if you've taken the time to watch Al Gore's documentary, then at least take the time to watch Lord Christopher Monckton's 90+ minute video. It's easy to misinterpret the signals coming from Mother Earth, and exploiting selected data could destroy the global economy forever and jeopardize US sovereignty. The importance of this `climate change debate' cannot be overemphasized, so please do your homework before you come to any final conclusion.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Pinelady
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Member # 18524
posted
I see both sides too. The global warming debate is
a political ploy to sidetrack opinion -In my opinion.
What a lot do not understand or really care about is- it is not just about "Global Warming". It is
about what to do about a planet that is dying. And you either believe that or you don't. As for
being used as an example for wrongdoing I am sure if someone wanted to compile enough information
they probably could find wrong doing.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Brussels
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posted
I don't doubt there's a problem in the American view of global warming and the coal/ petroleum industry interest to prove that there's no global warming whatsoever.
I wonder if the whole article concerning falsification was not leaked to the public on purpose to create more disinformation.
I have seen ice carrots from the Artic and the global warming doesn't lie there, as there are layers of information frozen there for many thousands of years.
There is global warming, and there's no point in doubting it. You can also analyze the air content year after year through these ice carrots, so there can't be much lie there, in my opinion.
But the PEER review discussion is pertinent. I am a PhD myself, and I published in certain peer reviewed journals. Every single journal has a board of members that belongs to a certain 'group'.
Every single researcher knows which journal would fit better to his or her field and would try to publish in this or that journal. Even the theme of research can be started BECAUSE it fits certain journals, if you see what I mean.
Depending on which journal you would like to publish, you will adapt your text and data and conclusions to fit that type of journal.
In all fields of science, there's no single field that is neutral. You can ask anyone that has published in a peer reviewed journal. If the person is sincere, s/he will tell that.
There's 'fashion' and group interests in anything that is human, and the research world is not too different. Just talk to any open minded researcher.
It is virtually impossible to read everything ever published even on a single small subject, because the amount of published materials is HUGE. I speak for myself. The mere amount of literature is so overwhelming and I don't think there is physical time in a lifetime to read everything ever published, no matter how small is your subject.
So there are groups of people that read certain very well cited articles, papers and books that will fit to publish in certain journals. Each article has a bibliography, and JUST by reading the bibliography (not the content), you'll KNOW to which type of 'current' or group the author fits into.
But if you belong to the group that read other literature, other papers with different views, possibly other languages literature, you would be good to publish in a different journal. Or possibly in another country /language.
But there are well 'accepted' rankings among journals, so that counts too.
And there's the language barrier. Different languages will have their own type of literature that is kept in the center of the show, but will know virtually NOTHING about the center of the show in another language (just because of language barrier).
German, French, Japanese and English are such language barriers I can speak for my own field. The French-English barrier is smaller compared to the English-German barrier. And if you add the Japanese, well, these are worlds apart from any Western language groups.
When a paper is accepted in a famous journal inside a circle (for example, the English speaking circle), it becomes normal to re-use this same paper over and over again inside other papers(as bibliography), just because it is widely accepted.
Adding a new paper that has never been cited in a journal in your bibliography can risk your paper to be rejected or to have more difficulty to be accepted. I'm only talking about the bibliography, not the content of the paper!
When there is a new view trying to break in, only an acceptance by a certain group of researchers belonging to a more or less known group will 'allow' this idea to come to life, be accepted and one day, known.
This means that this new view/ hypothesis will only become 'true' if accepted in a well known journal. If not accepted, you will probably never even hear about this new view ever. It doesn't have to do with the truth exactly, but with its acceptance.
This is human. Science is not neutral, it was never neutral, it will never be, because it is made by humans. We are not neutral. The more research there is, the more the amount of infomation grows, the more we tend to hang on groups. It is even the only way to process and classify information, due to the sheer amount.
I hope there are other people here that have already published in peer reviewed journals to tell their view too. How much material have they read in different languages? Could they say they read everything in their field?
If you did any research whatsoever, you know exactly what it is to make your data fit better your conclusions. Just see statistics. From the same original data, one can take MANY MANY different conclusions!!
I'm not saying all reasearchers are bad. I'm just saying that research is done by human beings like you and me.
Statistics is a field that clearly shows how much manipulation we can do. It should be the most neutral field (because it is math right?). Wrong. The way data is collected, classified, grouped to create conclusions is not mathmatics. Far from it.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
lymie_in_md brings up a valid point.Truthfinder brings up the subject of Lord Monckton who publicly exposed our presidents plan to sign a global treaty soon that would give most of our power to the U.N. and have us paying less affluent countries millions in order to "equalize" carbon emissions..to all who doubt (you have the right to)look into Lord moncktons exposure of this ...you might be surprised.
Posts: 27 | From delaware | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Brave First Post Lymila-sticking your views out like that.
I personally think all this discussion about global warming is mute- unless the person posting is willing to post what they are doing to offset the situation on their part.
Me? I don't pump gas in the middle of the day when it's hottest.
The relationship between humans and their environment is very messy-and both suffer-but who has the brains in the situation?-and who will have the final word?
Live in the solution.
Posts: 365 | From Sylvania | Registered: Aug 2008
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Selma -- such a wonderful explanation of how peer review and publication is performed.
Tracy -- thanks for detailing the spirit of my argument.
For those who thought I espoused a political view in why I created the topic. You missed the point and you really don't have any idea what my political views are! "Stupidly inflammatory", do you really think that?
The purpose is to show why the peer review process needs to be reset by entrenched organizations. Reset with new individuals or the process self corrupts. It happens in any human endeavor. Whether it is a town, city, or scientific journal. So yes the IDSA for this reason should recuse itself and let new leadership come in. It is also true of medical review boards.
The reason I brought this up, it is proven now that this peer review group in global warming appears to have become corrupt. It disallows dissenting opinion of any kind. It has taken over a journal. It is manipulating the facts to a single point of view. The member have become too vested in that specific point of view.
The IDSA is a peer review organization for publications into the New England Journal of Medicine (at least my understanding). There membership disallows dissenting opinion of any kind. They manipulate the facts to meet their own group views.
This issue is going to be put in front of the public. We need to find the real truth, not one manufactured for us, and this is for the sake of the planet.
As far as global warming or climate change. I think the issue is so complex and so vast it is beyond a single comprehension. The term climate change make it simple for us understand. Like the silver bullet or single pill answer for a problem. It is all about CO2 emissions. We need better research and more thorough understanding of the problem.
Lets look at the IDSA, this group expouses the idea continued symptoms are psychosomatic. An entrenched organization came up with this one despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary. But, because of this single view, no effort is made to find the true nature of the problem.
I believe, if creative, we can use this issue of global warming and entrenched group corruption against the IDSA. I think we can also use it against medical review boards.
My political or environmental views don't matter one iota. What does matter is using any leverage to get a new panel of IDSA members who are not entrenched with the current members views.
Reality check! the global warming scientists are about to be beaten up by public opinion. And my guess, they will be sacrificed and the research will get restarted afresh by new scientists.
In the process, public opinion will get a better understanding of the peer review process. This might be a very good opportunity to apply it to the IDSA in our discourse with others.
Ever had someone assume this, "the IDSA are esteemed scientists who are you to refute them". Even if its in your own family.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
JR -- some of the things I've done: I drive a toyota corolla (won't drive anything larger). My next car will be a hybrid (I'm considering an "aptera" when the prices come down from 30k). It gets 300 miles to the gallon. I keep the temperature in my house at 66 degrees. I'm planning to create a food/herbal garden in the spring. I've sealed my house as best I can to retain heat. I buy energy star products. I'll be looking into LEDs for lighting. Solar is out of the question for the time being. Maybe next year, my focus is a garden first.
Now for all the folks who slammed me, what are you doing?
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
The case for global warming is falling apart. It's simply a normal cycle of change that the earth goes through all the time.
go ahead and blast me!!
I drive a Scion XD .. does that make me a good person now??
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96117 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
It's so nice to see folks are doing something active to save our planet. Thank you!!!!
And the example provided by Lymie-in-MD to show the IDSA's IDiot stance is a decent one. If it can stir up this much "stuff" and get people talking, its done its job!
And James, did you stay up late chewing on cow leather soaked in pepper sauce, or are you always that dreamy and pleasant when the full moon comes to town?
Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
Tinny I just realized how sad my life is when I have to come here to get a laugh. HOWWWWWWWW. LOL
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Vermont_Lymie
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posted
James, I totally agree with you, and if the moderators have ruled that discussion of climate science is indeed relevant for lyme medical issues, let's get on with it.
Tutu, no one would ever blast you, you are too cute!
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tincup
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posted
I'd say Tutu is too cute too..
If she could keep her pants pulled up!
Pine said.. "Tinny I just realized how sad my life is when I have to come here to get a laugh. HOWWWWWWWW. LOL"
You are right! That IS sad!
That is almost as bad as volunteering to get a root canal just to try to get a laugh!
Tutu, no one would ever blast you, you are too cute! [/QB]
How did you know!!?? You really think I look like those dancing tutus, huh!? Can we say "delusional?"
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96117 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
TC -- glad the point created some constructive thinking. Maybe we could also solve the energy crisis if we could just harness the energy of those drawers going up and down.
I agree with VL that tutu is too cute!
I say vanilla ice cream for all!!! Maybe that will cool the lymenet warming.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
You make a me giggle. hehehehehehe
And Tutu always takes the full moon literally, did you notice that?
Vanilla sounds good right about now. But can I have a few dripples of butterscotch on it?
Oh, and I'll eat it right out of the container because I don't want to waste water by having to do more dishes later.
posted
Forgot to mention I also don't run the water while I am brushing my teeth. My computer is plugged into a surge protector-and when I leave for work or go to bed I turn off the whole surge protector.Most of my wash I do in cold water. In fact just today I was thinking about how someone should invent a coldwater detergent for the dishwasher so it cold be run with coldwater, too.I also think the sale of bottled water needs to be banned.I use reusable bottles with tap water. 66 degrees is a little bit too chilly for me.
quote:Originally posted by lymie_in_md: JR -- some of the things I've done: I drive a toyota corolla (won't drive anything larger). My next car will be a hybrid (I'm considering an "aptera" when the prices come down from 30k). It gets 300 miles to the gallon. I keep the temperature in my house at 66 degrees. I'm planning to create a food/herbal garden in the spring. I've sealed my house as best I can to retain heat. I buy energy star products. I'll be looking into LEDs for lighting. Solar is out of the question for the time being. Maybe next year, my focus is a garden first.
Now for all the folks who slammed me, what are you doing?
Posts: 365 | From Sylvania | Registered: Aug 2008
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
The full moon thing. LOL Round here we call that cycling.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Pinelady -- you always seem to put a good spin on it.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
This is an interesting thread. Politics aside, the point is valid. Dissenting opinions being stifled in favor of popular opinion, and that is a dangerous situation regardless of the topic.
I happen to "believe in" global warming. But even if I did not, I would still have a vested interest in our planet and feel obligated to preserving it for future generations.
I have never been able to understand the thinking of those who continue unabashed polluting indifferent to the PRESENT environment. Polluted water ways unfit for swimming or fishing. Ozone action alerts prompting people to stay indoors. Contaminated soil with "dead zones." Overflowing landfills. All things affecting us TODAY. So why NOT do something to improve the environment, even if you don't buy into global warming.
I could do more, for sure, but among some of my efforts are: *I recycle all my glass, magazines, metals, newspapers, motor oil, and most of my plastics (would do ALL plastics if I had someone to take them). *I compost lawn/garden waste *I drive a fuel effecient vehicle and try to limit milage by combining trips *I reuse anything I can: containers, bags, boxes. (I could do better but I try) *I don't turn on my air conditioning in the summer unless the heat is intolerable. Instead, I pull shades/curtains and sleep under a ceiling fan (naked..lol). In the winter, I keep the house cool and wear slippers and use extra blankets, including an electric blanket. *I re-use paper for notes and print on both sides of printer paper *I never litter and wouldn't dream of burning leaves
So...okay...after thinking, it seems perhaps I don't actually do enough. I need to find more areas.
Any ideas? I'd love to hear them.
Posts: 212 | From Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
Gahagan, that's my view. I don't necessarily buy into global warming. Yes, the planet's climate is changing, but I think it's natural cycles rather than our impact on it.
However, it's not just because I agree with Lymie, that's not the topic he intended to discuss, from his first post, he wants to talk about peer reviewed studies and what that means.
I prefer the vanilla ice cream talk myself, sorry, Bob!
Anyway, I do try to take care of the environment to a certain extent. I think it's a waste to not do so. It's like I'm a politically conservative environmentalist in that regard, though I don't take it as far as I should or as far as you do.
Believe it or not, with six kids I drive a Mini Cooper! LOL! I have an old, crummy van with over 120,000 miles on it that's been on it's last leg for four years. We "replaced" it with my MINI since most of the time when I'm driving, I only have one or two kids with me anyway. But when I have more kids, I can use the van, which gets used a few times per month, not much at all.
I don't do recycling, but honestly, I don't get the newspaper, magazines, etc. I don't buy soda, beer, etc. that often. I cook everything from scratch.
My husband always throws fits about the electric bill. Our heat is at 67, he tries to get it to 65 but someone (ME) always turns it back up, and let's face it, I'm at home more than he is, so I win.
I have 38 windows in my house and lots of ceiling fans (we live in a 93 year old home), so our a/c doesn't get turned on downstairs until it's in the mid-80's, but it does upstairs because it's a finished attic and gets hot. Keeping the upstairs cool and closed off helps keep the downstairs cooler.
I use reusable grocery bags, unless I forget them in my car and don't have a kid with me to run out and get them, but even the ones we bring home get used again.
I think there are little things that we can all do without turning it political.
Okay, that's serious enough for me ..... oh, Tinny!!! Where are you??? Let's have a latte!!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pinelady
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Member # 18524
posted
Six I drive a Mini Too. Actually got if for my daughter to have paid for when its time for her to drive. Something to wiggle around town in. I have separated my garbage for as long as I care to remember. Does that count?
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Aren't MINI's fun?!?! I've had mine for 4 1/2 years, still looks like new and I still love it like it's new. Hubby offered to buy me a new car a year or so ago and when I said I'd get one exactly like the one I have he didn't!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Yes, much of the global warming hysteria is mass foolishness. Sorry if you are one of those masses, but it's just the truth. look at the "solutions" that have come out of the global warming camp:
1. Ethanol : In the U.S. the production of Ethanol from corn USES more energy than it creates. Fossil fuels. What a joke. BIG business for corn producers though... 2. Electric cars : Where do THEY think the electricity will come from? Many believe electricity comes from the walls of their homes I think. Please... Coal, Oil, nuke.. pick one or all for the extra electrical load, and lots of it! 3. Private Planes : Seems all the big GW yellers have 'em.
I recycle because I want less crap in landfills. I never pollute because I think it makes our world look like crap. I keep the heat low and don't air condition often because it costs a ton. I ride a bike many places because i enjoy it and stay in shape.
I have no problem with folks fighting for a cleaner, better world. Just don't use phoney "science" to sell the idea. The world has had MANY temperature cycles - most before man walked the planet. Many more will come. unfortunately for the alamests, it turns out this may not be one of them at all.
Posts: 2 | From Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2009
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Alright six, I only like vanila ice cream if there's lots of hot fudge involved.
I guess we could use two topics and retire this one. One about saving the planet in "off topic" and one about "IDSA peer review is too entrenched". Sound reasonable?
ooops, maybe one more in off topic about mini's. Personnaly, I'm not interested in mini's (sorry six at 6'1" they just remind me of sitting in airplane seat -- but a topic on vanila ice-cream -- well I'm there)
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Actually, Bob, they are quite comfortable. My husband is taller than you and loves driving it!! He drives it any chance he gets! No one can sit behind him, however, unless they have no legs!
If you want a discussion about peer review, I think you will have to start a new topic. If you would like, I'll move this to off-topic.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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lymie_in_md
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Member # 14197
posted
Go ahead and move this to off topic or should I say many topics in one topic. I'll start a topic specific to peer review.
And I stand corrected about the mini. They just look so tiny, I guess looks can be deceiving.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2148 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Haha, I can't move it now!!! Hey Anna Lee!!! Where ARE you? I was taken off moderator status while I go out of town .... they took me off early so I didn't get roped into any drama the night before I leave. The other mods are so good to me!
MINI's are deceiving. I can put the seats down and buy groceries, or put them up and drive around kids. My 6'4" son sits in it with the seat all the way back. It's basically ALL passenger room.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I love the hot seats in the morning. AHHH. Lymetoo-OhhhhhBluebells. OMG. I hope someday we get to have ice-cream together...Anyone planning a IDSA bash?
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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