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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » KPU treatment experience (Page 1)

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Author Topic: KPU treatment experience
pryorka
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I just started the KPU protocol and I had read previous posts and people kept saying that it was hard and symptoms developed from it. I was wondering how long did it take to notice you were feeling worse and what did you feel?

I'm at 3/4 the full dose of everything and I don't feel any different. I've been on it for three days now, but I thought maybe it slowly gets worse over time or people run into a wall of symptoms at some point. Any thoughts?

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sixgoofykids
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First, I started detoxing heavily. I felt toxic ... did a lot of coffee enemas and took binders.

After that ended, I felt great, then I'd feel like I caught a bug. That kept cycling - feel great, then sick. Once I got through that, I felt great all the time and have ever since.

A more detailed account is in my blog. [Smile]

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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LittleLymie19
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Hi pyorka- I'm on my second day of the KPU protocol. I'm only on 1/4 of the dose my doctor wants me on. I'm not sure if I feel anything yet. If anything, I might've even felt a little better today in terms of my autonomic/neurological symptoms, but possibly had an increase in fatigue.

Anyone want to share what types of symptoms worsened? Was it pain and fatigue mostly, or did heart symptoms, autonomic symptoms, etc worsen too? I'm hoping that mine don't worsen with detox (or my lack of).

Six, I love reading about your experiences [Smile] Definitely gives me hope that you not only made it through this, but you made it through with flying colors...and you're now doing pilates and eating and cooking oodles of yummy food [Smile]

Six, did you ever try a colonic while you were on the protocol? My biggest hurdle in detox is my GI tract and its lack of motion...I'm wondering how much motion is necessary to keep up...lol...wish there was a handbook on these things...

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Brussels
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I only added zinc in the beginning, and only sometimes a month. The detox that follows is not immediate, or if it is, it can last many days, in my experience.

With Depyrrol, one capsule could cause me symptoms for many many days. The worst are pain, but there are all other herx-like symptoms like liver gets blocked, you feel toxic, tired, etc.

Now I'm taking almost one Depyrrol a day, but it took me many months to reach this. My daughter is on about 2 Depyrrol kids a week though. We're trying to build up slowly since about March or April...

The effect of Depyrrol is not immediate, but sort of cummulative, in my feeling. I am ONLY taking the KPU supplements, NOTHING else for the last months, so I know that my reactions come from the protocol.

My daughter too. She's now fighting some painful muscles in her neck, due to lack of magnesium (lost to zinc).

Good luck! Keep us posted, I'm also interested to see how people react to it.

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TerryK
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There are some important considerations in treating this condition which are not covered with Depyrrol as outlined in this article.
http://www.betterhealthguy.com/joomla/images/stories/PDF/kpu_klinghardt_explore_18-6.pdf

Terry

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sixgoofykids
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Terry, I also take taurine, biotin, and oil of evening primrose with the Depyrrol.

Little, I did lots of coffee enemas during the initial part of the treatment, but never had a colonic. You do want to keep things moving. Maybe adding some magnesium would help with that? Fiber?

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SForsgren
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Make sure you are clear that the desired dose of ELEMENTAL zinc is about 50mg at the top end. The protocol refers to 200-250mg of Zinc Picolinate, Gluconate, etc. That is the amount of zinc salt, not the amount of ELEMENTAL zinc. If you get Zinc Picolinate 30mg or 50mg, etc., that is generally still the ELEMENTAL amount, not the amount of zinc salt. So, most products that I have seen, we'd still not want to take more than about 50mg of zinc since that is likely the elemental amount listed on the bottle. Make sure you understand salt vs. elemental as you could otherwise take too much zinc which could results in other problems.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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SForsgren
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The few people I've talked with started feeling worse as early as a week into the protocol and some several weeks. The waves of feeling bad continued for many months for me and it was always related to a need for more detox support.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I felt worse with first dose of low protocol that I slowly ramped up on.The feeling bad was pretty extreme for months for me.I did start having 2-3 days of most symptoms lifting at 8 mo and then would get slammed again. I saw my doc last night and he reduced my dose after reading Scotts new info on his site. Be sure u understand this as Scott said.Too much zink can be toxic.
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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Forgot to say I have done many binders all along.Also coffee enemas,baking soda and epson salt baths.
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pryorka
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Scott you're right about the salt vs elemental zinc measurement, but I was under the impression that the dosage for the protocol was 250mg of elemental zinc, just that Dr. K's protocol suggests taking the zinc as zinc picolinate, gluconate, or sulfate since those absorb the best. I checked the Tamaro protocol and some of those German sites and they all just say 250mg zinc.
I think mineral dosages are always given based on elemental amount. Because really if we looked at Dr. K's protocol he couldn't say 250mg of any of those salts because those salts are all different weights and provide different amounts of elemental zinc. Know what I'm saying?? So 250mg of elemental zinc sounds right.

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emla999/Lyme
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To see if we are taking enough elemental zinc maybe we should monitor our white blood cell zinc levels via the Lymphocyte zinc test.

Reportedly, the Lymphocyte zinc test is a better indicator of the body's zinc status when compared to other blood tests.


http://tinyurl.com/yagejk2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1422180


The lab SpectraCell does the Lymphocyte zinc testing.


Here's the link to that lab:


http://www.spectracell.com/mnt/#nutrients


****They will send you a testing kit if you call and ask for one.


.

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lymie tony z
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I know I usually have a BM when I drink coffee in the morning with a cigarette...LOL!

Butt I don't quite get how one appreciates coffee up the poop tube?

Last time I looked it does'nt have taste buds there...although...mine are'nt working too well lately even where they're supposed to be

your buddy Scotty
the one and only
zman

--------------------
I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman

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heiwalove
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i felt sick immediately after the first dose of the Core pill from biopure, but after that didn't notice anything until five weeks in (and i'm only on 1/2 dr. k's recommended dose). last week i experienced a huge increase in fatigue, brain fog, headaches, dizziness, head pressure - lots of awful neuro symptoms flooding in all at once. i lowered my dose even further and upped the binders but didn't get much relief. i'm taking a break for a couple days (and i see my practitioner next week) because i need to be able to function at least marginally.

pryorka - nope, 250 mg of elemental zinc is wayyy too much. dr k clarifies this on the back of the Core bottle. one should only be taking 25-50 mg of elemental zinc at most during this protocol.

--------------------
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heiwalove
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here's what it says on the back of the Core bottle:


Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 4 Vegetarian Capsules daily
Amount Per Serving
DV
Vitamin B-6 .................................................................75 mg
(as Pyridoxine HCl and Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate)
Biotin...................................................................10,000 mcg
Zinc..............................................................................27 mg
( from 80 mg Zinc Picolinate and 80 mg Zinc Gluconate)
Manganese (as Manganese Citrate)...............................20 mg
Chromium (as Chromium Chelate).............................500 mcg
Molybdenum ( as Molybdenum Krebs)....................500 mcg


Other Ingredients: Silica, Cellulose

Krebs= Citrate, Fumarate, Malate, Glutarate and Succinate Complex.

Please note that the Zinc is elemental:
Elemental refers to the actual amount of the mineral in the product. Minerals ( eg. Zinc ) must be bound to something else (eg. Picolinate) in order to be utilized by the body. This is why you will see Zinc chelated to something else, ( eg. Picolinate) on a label. Therefore, Zinc Picolinate in its entirety refers to the source which provides the actual or elemental amount of Zinc. For example, Zinc (from 80 mg Zinc Picolinate and 80 mg Zinc Gluconate) will provide 27 mg of Zinc. Each source, Zinc Picolinate and Zinc Gluconate, provides a percentage of zinc, which is then represented on the label as 27 mg.

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SForsgren
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The target dose is about 50mg of elemental zinc, NOT 200-250.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Thanks Heiwalove for posting that.I will be starting Bio Pure Core next week. It should be a lot easier than all these separate supps I feel like a pill bottle. Hugs Joyce
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pryorka
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Wait this is really confusing now. How come Dr. T says 250mg zinc. Dr. K also says 250mg zinc from either zinc picolinate, sulfate, or gluconate. Has anyone asked these doctors giving protocols why they say one thing but now we're all saying 50mg of zinc?

I know Scott said he thought Dr. K meant 250mg of either of those types of zinc salts. But 250mg of zinc picolinate yields a different amount of elemental zinc than 250mg of zinc gluconate. The difference is even large with zinc sulfate. So that wouldn't make sense for them to ever say that.... that's why i'm lost here.

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R62
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Any concerns about molybdenum, manganese, chromium toxocity? I take chromium 200 mg and thats 167% RDA.

Would a RBC test suffice for testing levels?

Manganese can be neurotoxic.

I dont think this can be a one size fits all protocol.

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djf2005
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Id like to hear an answer to pryorka's question, makes sense.

Especially if staying close to zinc target dose is so important, I think it needs clarifying.

Even the explanation on the back of the core bottle does not really make sense, to me at least.

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

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SForsgren
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About 1/6 of a zinc salt is ELEMENTAL zinc. It does vary by the type of salt (picolinate, gluconate, etc.). So if you look at 160mg of zinc salt and that yields 27mg of ELEMENTAL zinc, it seems to add up.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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GiGi
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All meds should be energetically tested before use. KPU is not a do-it-yourself program, because anyone doing the program not experienced with heavy metal toxicity will need the assistance of a doctor or practitioner who is familiar dealing with the possible fallout. And you do want the fallout!!!! That's the purpose of KPU -- to finally get the stuff out of the system that has been killing us slowly probably for years. There is nothing worse one can do than taking a mobilizing agent, such as CORE, and then when the fallout happens not knowing how to deal with it.

Biopure carries items to be available for trained practitioners, trained by Dr. K. via the Institute. Heavy metal detoxification is again - not a one-fits-all or, much less, something a layperson should be doing without guidance. It looks simple, but wait when you start to be dealing with circulating toxic metals not knowing how to handle them or get them out of the system. When metals are on the loose, such as happens all the time with any, any, any killing method, it pays to have help to deal with it in order not to make things even worse. It is not easy to get heavy metals out of the brain/brainstem. Shifting metals, when timing is not right, from the lower body into the brain happens often! and is bad news.

It's even worse if you do the KPU while still allergic to the metals. Metal detox is much, much easier after allergies have been eliminated.
You still need to know how to handle the detox, but without errors in the DNA/allergies, you are no longer fighting your own immune system, certain negative reactions/symptoms, and it is so much easier.

The least one should learn is how to test energetically. It is easy to learn. I cannot imagine dealing with this disease without this tool (tensor, pendulum, o-ring testing, arm-length testing) or having someone available when needed who does good muscle testing. I know many of you call it snake oil and woodoo - so be it. We have choices.

My husband is doing KPU. I learned to use a tensor and it works like a charm. I can help him when the kidney gets blocked, when some infection popps up (metals and bugs live together). And decide what works best at the moment when he is not his usual self. The neck may hurt temporarily, test mag for muscle cramps, or cilantro rubbed onto the area to move the stuck metal; or kidney is blocked - rub cilantro. Or up the microsilica.

You probably need some help to do it right. It is not a good idea to throw darts - our body is too precious.

Take care.

P.S. Some people don't need more than 1-2 CORE.
Some need more than 4. That is why testing or experience is necessary. And the amount to take may change for different people.

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Cass A
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I am doing KPU with no biotensor, etc., and taking the Allergie-Immun drops at the same time.

I came to the KPU supplements via the article on nutritional handling of seizures, that was posted here at Lymenet. So, I was already taking zinc, B-6, B-Complex, magnesium, taurine, selenium, alpha-lipoic acid, borrage oil, etc.

I didn't experience any serious effects from the KPU supplements--quite the reverse.

When KPU was brought up here, I added manganese and copper--the only things I wasn't taking!

I have had days of symptom increase, possibly from these and possibly from the Allergie-Immun drops.

I have been taking chlorella most days, and zeolite some nights. This all would probably be going more smoothly if I were taking more binders.

Before being diagnosed with Lyme, I did a long round of EDTA chelation, had my amalgam fillings replaced, and did some intense sauna-based detox.

Best,

Cass A

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heiwalove
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thanks GiGi. i think it's quite possible that i'll have to back down to 1/2 Core per day and then work up from there. it's amazing how the heavy metal fallout hit me so suddenly, like a deluge, after coasting along pretty fallout-free for over a month. even loads of chlorella, which has always helped in the past with lyme & coinfection herxes, didn't do much for the KPU die-off. this is a really hard protocol -- in my limited experience with it so far, even more difficult than treating the bugs (and that's saying A LOT, i know).

i learned how to pendulum test recently but it zaps a lot of my inner strength, so i can't do it very frequently. wish i could test every little thing, but at this stage in the game it's just too exhausting.

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emla999/Lyme
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It appears that the elemental zinc dosage required to control KPU can vary from person to person.


I say this because apparently, Dr. Pfeiffer had used up to 160 mg of elemental zinc to treat KPU in some people. You can read more about that on the link down bellow. ***Note: Sometimes KPU is referred to as "The Mauve Factor".


http://tinyurl.com/ylovhg4


On page 4 it says:


"Initially, Pfeiffer tended to use high doses of vitamin B6 (400-3000 mg daily) and relatively modest (``dietary'') doses of zinc. Later, some patients were noted to respond optimally to B6 and as much as 160 mg daily of elemental zinc."


On Page 5 under FIGURE 4

It says:

"Leukodynia Implies Zinc Deficit. In this high-Mauve subject, white flecks in nails resolved after institution of 100 mg of elemental zinc daily, reoccurred after dosage was lowered to 40 mg, and again abated on higher dosage."


.

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djf2005
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Thanks for the explanation Scott, I understand the data on the bottle now.

Derek

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"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

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SForsgren
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I did the H6 method for awhile and then got sidetracked, but in theory, it should be helpful.

I've done foot detox baths. They can be helpful, but I see them on the lower side of benefit relative to other things like FIR sauna, binders, etc.

I think KPU without binders will be very difficult and may result in a failed treatment - or at least a very difficult one for most. Looking larger that KPU, binders seem to be important for most of us recovering from chronic Lyme.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I don't know of anyone doing KPU that has not had a hard time with it,even with practioners guidance,energy testing,all binders etc etc.Actually 2 peeps. I am wondering if they even have KPU as they were not tested. I also believe one size does not fit all.I also believe that the info put out about elemental and non elemental should have been known before we were all put on it. Lots of people have suffered do to this.Please every one be careful.
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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I have done foot baths and they shift things a bit. Will be doing the H6 method eventually.I also got side tracked like Scott. Far saunas also help but if ur taking the wrong dose of zink I am not sure that any of this helps.Its called Zink toxic.People might want to check symptoms of being zink toxic.
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R62
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Its also not a do it with your practioner protocol, either, depending on the practioner and their ability to rely on their own testing and judgement and to accept your own intuition and knowledge as well in that process.
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R62
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The info on elemental zinc should be made very clear.

I am not sure if this is not reflective of a difference in European dosing or not. Looking at the Depryyol supplement, I see BOTH are listed. I dont see this on my supps from the US, which seem to list the source, but the content is measured as elemental.

I also think not every practioner overseeing this protocol is as heavy metal toxic aware as some of us are who spend more time reseaching. Unfortnuately.

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SForsgren
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You will see it on some. Douglas Labs 50mg Zinc Picolinate has some details like "from x mg of amino acid complex" but they don't state that the 50mg is elemental. I agree it is very confusing. If you look at the government sites, it states that they are all elemental, but it is an easy mistake to make.

I agree with R62 and I personally would not want to do KPU without having a doctor well-versed in detox and heavy metals.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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aliyalex
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So since binders are so extremely important, please clearly list them here. Chlorella, cilantro, zeolite,...

And detox techniques: ionic foot bath, far infrared saunas, ...

Thanks for the clarity and sorry if it is repetitive. The symptoms are, too. Aliyah

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GiGi
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As I tried to state above, the CORE was designed after years of experience in this field. Dr. K. talked to me about KPU and Drs. Hoffer and Pfeiffer in the early 2000. We even did a test then.

Since it is Dr. K's brainchild, for better or worse, CORE is made available through Biopure. Biopure carries products and testing material for the medical professionals who attend Dr. K's Institute of Neurobiology teachings. They, if the take the time, are fully informed about the concept.

KPU is not a do-it-yourself therapy, and it is clearly stated that one should seek the advice of a medical professional. KPU is certainly not a
ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL project.

Often during KPU, as is the case with any heavy metal detox, infections may flare and both have to be addressed at the same time: help with the fallout of metals and help with possible infection-fungi-viral-parasite flare.

Neither does the content of CORE fit everyone. That's when energetic testing - frequently - is necessary.

The same goes for any binders. They are a very individual thing and should be tested before using them. And they should be tested with a dependable form of energetic testing frequently.
The body may like something today, but starts to reject it tomorrow.

I didn't realize how often the body rejects, blocks, asks for different remedies/support/ etc. until I finally learned to test myself. I would highly recommend learning some form of it.

Heiwalove, I never worked well with the pendulum because it takes too long to swing its way around == that made it very tiresome, especially when more than one substance is involved. Unblocking blocked regulation is very easy with the tensor, close to ART. We will talk about it soon.

I am so glad there is an Allergie Immun and a KPU/HPU. www.hputest.nl and best of all the teachings of energetic testing.

Take care.

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SForsgren
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I agree with GiGi 100%. In fact, I worry very much about people trying this without proper medical support. I had that support and it was still the most difficult treatment I have done. Doing it without a doctor to guide is an unnecessary risk and may make people worse.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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R62
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I have medical support from a source that is quite tied into Dr. K, and I was told to work my son up to 125mg and me that 50mg was OK but dont go higher..since my test was not positive.

My test, btw, which was negative, sat at UPS for 5 days supposedly in a refrigerator.. the UPS rep supposedly took it out of the box and put in fridge. I was not allowed to question this for long and told my sample was just fine. Both my kids who are not manifesting lyme symptoms tested positive. I do not like this lab at all. Terrible experience.

I think I may be in heavy metal crisis. I was leary of these high doses and kept my kids at 15mg creeping up to 30 for a short time before the info came out. I am quite livid about that and grateful the info came out and that they have not gone into any HM crisis.

I think anyone who has KPU will possibly hit a crisis at doses your average person would not ging by what I am reading and practioners need to be aware of that.

Since I think I might very well be in HM crisis and dont know what the heck to take that will work in this case, will someone give me some ideas..

I know microsilica has to be taken apart from minerals.. does biosil? I dont think horsetail has to be. I need to look into the nutramedix zeolites as well. My legs feel like they did when I was eliminating 9 metals as per yasko and the methylation protocol. But this is beyond that. I have been having shaking attacks that come and go for weeks now, tachtycardia.

I thought is was a lyme flare or babesia, but since I am on full zinc I am wondering if this is actualy from the KPU protocol which I did not know I was on.

[ 12-18-2009, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]

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SForsgren
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BioSil is not a heavy metal binder. It is for biofilms and that will likely only make things worse if you are already in a crisis. I don't think BioSil has to be taken away from minerals.

Same options - Detoxamin, Zeolites, Chlorella, Fibers, Charcoals, drainage remedies, PectaSol-C, etc.

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Scott

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R62
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Thanks, Scott.. I thought biosil was like horsetail for alumninum.
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R62
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I am taking chlorella and modifilan and some oral EDTA. Have detoxamin and was tested for that. Should use, just afraid of it for some reason.

Have quite a few drainage remedies here. Need to get more confident with testing, which is hard to do when in crisis anyway.

I have been drinking tons on water when attacks come and taking charcoal because I wasnt sure if it was not porphyria. My sister tested pos for this at some point in her illness. Its not genetic. She can tolerate sulfa drugs now and is well.

I also wonder if porphyria can be at play here for some of us.

I was treated for allergy to metals before having amalgams out with AET.

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SForsgren
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Dr. K uses BioSil as part of a biofilm protocol, not for metal detox. I am unaware of it being used for metal removal.

--------------------
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Scott

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R62
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Regarding Biosil:

http://www.nutritiondome.com/bsil.html

Aluminum: Silicon protects against aluminum toxicity. Aluminum is widely suspected of playing a role in certain age-related reductions in mental functioning. Orthosilicic acid has been shown to increase the urinary excretion of aluminum.

I understand some are using it to replace horsetail in the yasko protocol. Not sure aluminum is a metal of interest in KPU. I think it is tied to bacteria and that would mean biofilm I suppose?

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SForsgren
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Good to know it has other benefits, but in the DK world it is more of a biofilm breaker. Breaking biofilms release organisms, metals, etc. So if someone is already toxic, adding Biosil likely just adds to the problem and makes you feel worse.

Drainage remedies, homeopathics, etc. are certainly good support.

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Be well,
Scott

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I am taking Bio sil. It seems to really stir things up.Releases critters and metals that r in the biofilm if I am understanding it right. Is anyone angry about the new info on zink?
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SForsgren
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I don't think there is any new info on zinc; just more understanding now. Dr K is still saying 200-250 mg of Zinc picolinate, gluconate, etc. which is a zinc salt. Sadly, the supplement companies seem to be unclear in some cases - or maybe we as consumers did not understand that they actually mean elemental zinc. It was a revelation to me as well and one I am glad I understand better now.

That said, even on the higher dose of zinc, I was still energetically testing well for it. I think the important thing is that we have clarified this now and are not on too much for several years, etc.

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Scott

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GiGi
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Elemental vs. Chelated Mineral

http://books.google.com/books?id=urYe8Fs9M0wC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=elemental+vs+chelated&source=bl&ots=v3Rlq_oon6&sig=ukotDmE172nH_n31xhi-YbUH9oM&hl=en&ei=nNMqS6rtA4GeswOnu7CJBA&sa= X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA

[ 12-17-2009, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: GiGi ]

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GiGi
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http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.org/LymeKPUprotocol.pdf

Read page 47 and 48 to which clearly tells that the zinc should be in the form of picolinate or gluconate, etc.

Pg 48 gives an indication that the body has to be supplied with the supporting procucts to handle the fallout.

This was in 2008. Now we have the CORE.
Dr. K. has since made some changes, as the experience warrants. He never follows the crowd and he is always a few steps ahead in his thinking. That comes with the Klinghardt territory. But the individual testing is always the final decisionmaker.

If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. Possibly learn or find someone to test.

Take care.


This KPU protocol appears here and there on the internet with different words added or changes made.

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R62
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It is new info to my ND and others. Its a new understanding. Energetic testing can be effected by perspective. My ND does not energetically test. She goes by the protocol as she understands and age, weight.

Yes, I am angry that I almost put my kids on this and grateful that the info was share with me by a friend.

I am angry that I have been on the protocol and did not know it.

There should have been more clarification. That is taking nothing away from Dr. K. It is just a fact.

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R62
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The protocol is not clear.

I dont think all practioners are fully getting all this info either.

I was told to give my son 125mg of zinc.

I was told that it is OK to take up to 50 mg of zinc. That put me on KPU without knowing it.

So, yes, anger is appropriate as is not seeking to not crucify folks. And I am not seeing that. Just normal healthy anger.

[ 12-18-2009, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]

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R62
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You are correct, Scott. A bottle of zinc may say zinc picolinate and then be measuring elemental zinc not the salt.

I have a bottle of sublingual B6 here that differentiates between the elemental (?) and the substance it is made from. I have seen this with some magnesium products as well.

That said, this should have been clear from the get go, whether from the protocol info itself or from the practioners who were advising us.

We cannot rely on supplement companies to be consistant with this info and assume that they are.

But, I called Thorne to find out and they are measuring elemental... and I suspect most companies are using elemental in their measurements because (I think) the RDA is based on that ( even though they also show which form is being used.)If RDA % is shown, I am thinking the measurement is based on elemental.

This needs to be clarifued from the top down to all practioners who were trained.

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lymie_in_md
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R62 -- maybe the following link might be helpful.

http://www.optimalnutrients.com/chelatedminerals.html

[Big Grin]

--------------------
Bob

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R62
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Thanks, Bob. Seems I as well as others are getting our lesson in this including some practioners, I hope.

If I share this with my practioners, they will likely refer to the protocol, which is not clear. The term (clarification) "elemental" is not mentioned in the protocol linked above... not that I can find.

There should be more clarity in the protocol because that is what practioners are following.

A blog post from Scott is not enough. It possibly wont convince my practioners who do not know who Scott is or his access to Dr. K. (I asked them months ago when I wanted to share other info from Scott.)

More people have been confused than are speaking up, and that includes practioners.

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pryorka
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I just wouldn't think Dr. K and Dr. T would both list the dosage as a salt dosage in their protocol when elemental dosage is the standard way of doing things(and they list elemental dosages for everything else). Like I also said before I can't see Dr. K making the mistake of saying 250mg of any of those salts when that would vary the amount of elemental zinc drastically depending on which salt you choose to use. That just doesn't make any sense. Here's what I'm talking about.
250mg zinc sulfate yields 170mg zinc
250mg zinc gluconate yields 42mg zinc
250mg zinc picolinate yields 66mg zinc
So it makes no sense to interpret that 250mg of zinc on the protocol as being a zinc salt, because that would drastically change you're actual zinc dosage depending on which type you buy.

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GiGi
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This is the wording/description of the CORE mineral supplement clearly describing its content of all mineral ingredients
from the Biopureus website:

The Core Mineral Supplement. Essential Vitamins and Minerals. 240 Veggie Capsules. Adult serving size: 4 capsules daily. Bottle contains a two month supply. Supplement Facts: Serving Size 4 Vegetarian Capsules Vitamin B-6 75 mg (3,750% DV) (as Pyridoxine HCl and Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate. Biotin 10,000 mcg (3,333% DV. Elemental Zinc 27 mg (180% DV) ( from 80 mg Zinc Picolinate and 80 mg Zinc Gluconate). Manganese (as Manganese Citrate) 20 mg (1,000% DV). Chromium (as Chromium Chelate) 500 mcg (417% DV). Molybdenum ( as Molybdenum Krebst) 500 mcg (667% DV). Daily Value not established. Other Ingredients: Silica, Cellulose. Krebs= Citrate, Fumarate, Malate, Glutarate and Succinate Complex. Dosages, indications and any other information contained herein is suggested use only and not to be considered treatment recommendations. Please consult with a healthcare provider for treatment of any illness or condition, especially if you are pregnant, breast-feeding or considering treating a child. We suggest that you consult a licensed physician if you have any health problems and you require a medical diagnosis or medical advice or treatment. Our products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. For all matters that relate to your health, please contact your physician.

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R62
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Yes the Core does make sense if you need the high dosages of moly, manganese and chromium, and no it was not out until recently, though the Europeon supplement also lists elemental and has been out since the beginning.

The protocol says 250 mg and thats what some practioners have been prescribing in elemental form.

And yes, listing a one size fits all 250 mg of the salts makes no sense.

[ 12-18-2009, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: R62 ]

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R62
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What symptoms are you all having? Repeating for those not reading the entire thread: I didnt know I was on the protocol in full with the zinc until Scott's blog post came out explaining the difference between elemental and salt zinc.

I thought 25-60 mg, which I have been on was low and there was no problem. My practioners, I gather, have had the same conclusion.

I was on 25 mg for at least two months and recently upped from 47.5 to 60. During the last month or so, I have had the strangest and scariest symptoms. I thought it was a lyme or babs flare or possibly porphyria.. and it still could be.. but.. given I have been on the KPU protocol long enough for a detox reaction to occur and given my symptoms are very similar to those listed above and to someone else I know on the protocol, I am wondering...

Here are my symptoms that tend to come in attacks:

vibrations, tachtycardia, anxiety, shaking as if I am in shock, blurry vision, feeling I will just lose consciousness.. not the same as feeling will pass out.. different and cant explain, instability physically, weakness, ringing in ears.. some numbness around mouth.

Thats all I can remember now. If I remember more I will edit.

I have been taking 6000mg of chlorella a day. Sometimes rotating last dose (3X 2000mg) with 3 modifilan pills, EDTA chelation complex at times (1/2 to one pill.. do this because I read on yasko site to take enough to bind whats out there but not so much to pull out more), charcoal sometimes and probaby not enough.. 2-3 pills.

I am upping the detox to the 6000mg chlorella and adding (not substituting) either modifilan or the EDTA Chelation Complex at 1 pill. I am also taking 1 scoop of microsilica.

I have a call out to my practioners, but have not heard from them yet regarding HM dumping crisis.

(I tested neg as per VD test. My kids tests were positive. I was not to be on the protocol. I was told 50 mg of zinc is highest I should go as a non KPU-er. I was to be ART tested next visit.)

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GiGi
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Hi all,

Please note my comments on EDTA in an earlier post here.

KPU is mainly directed at heavy metals release. i.e. mobilizing them. From that point on, you need to bring certain helpers on board to help the metals out.

When metals are finally mobilizing, pathogens may flare, and you will have to pay attention to that.
That is the reason for doing KPU only under guidance. Unless, of course, you have the answers yourself, can test yourself, safely. I don't and I have to consult knowledgable people, so that I don't add to the damage that had already been done over the years. There is always something new that works better. A lot of people are working on the sidelines to make it easier.

Again, KPU should only be done under the supervision of a doctor or practitioner v e r y familiar with heavy metal toxicity.

Screaming, shouting and complaining ain't going to get us anywhere. The people that can help will flee!

Take care.

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R62
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I dont see anyone screaming, shouting or even complaining. I see healthy processing.
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R62
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I can't test myself well and am seeing "knowledgable people" and seemingly its slow going getting anywhere with a response.

I was not supposed to be in KPU. It happened by mistake because the knowledgable people didn't realize that the elemental dose is 25-50. I am trying to inform them.

Meanwhile, I have told them that I may be in HM crisis and I have not heard back.

So, I ask my friends for help because the symptoms are pretty scary and I want all the advice I can get until my people get back to me.

I can see other pathogens coming out. That makes sense. I hope we are addressing those correctly as well.

I dont think all practioners are aware of the pandoras box this protocol can be and they need to be informed.

I dont see your info on EDTA. I do see where several people are using correctly or not.. ?? I do also know that some practioners overseeing this protocol are also advising the use of detoxamin. Perhaps the oral form is all wrong?

And really, if you don't want to answer my posts, that's fine.

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pryorka
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I still don't know that the elemental dose is 50mg. I have two doctors, one llmd and one chelation doctor that works with Dr. K and Dr. T as well, and they both say it's 250mg BUT that's just for the first 4 months. They said the core and depyrol are formulated for maintenance doses after that first 4 months so you can just take one pill. And the core is formulated at the lower end of a KPU patients' zinc intake, because you can always add more to it if you need to but you can't split the pill in half to get less zinc or then you don't get enough of the B vitamins.

But I've been on the protocol for 5 days now and i'm noticing a much worse headache, and I always use a sauna, but now after I use it i'm really weak and shaky. My gums around where I had a mercury filling are hurting like heck too.

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I also see no one screaming,yelling or complaining.I did post I felt angry and thats the truth.Truth needs to be spoken.I have a great Md who energy tests,gets the detox crises thing and much more and it has still has been frustrating for me and many others including Docs.The protocol is extremely hard to go through even knowing all the things to do that can make it easier.People need to have compassion for what others r going through and not judge and point fingers.There is still much confusion going on about all this,and I am hoping Dr K will address it soon. Again I am grateful to Scott for shining the light on the zink confusion.
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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I also want to say I have been on the protocol for 8 mo.I am very disappointed that I was doing the wrong toxic dosages of zink. My Md dropped my dose to where it should be the other night and squeezed me in to do so after reading Scotts message and hellish symptoms have stopped.I had been doing all the support listed here and more.Please everyone be very careful. Wait to do the protocol until u can find an Md to help that totally understands the process and does not mind u asking questions and is open to u sharing what u know. Blessings to all the confusion lifting so people can feel safe doing the protocol.
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pryorka
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Hey healingin santa cruz what symptoms were you having? Because we will get heavy metal redistribution symptoms especially if we aren't chelating along with it. But zinc overdose symptoms are things like nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, stomach cramps.
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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Hi Pryorka, I have kept notes on all symptoms to share with my md.I know well the symptoms of metal redistribtion as I have dealt with it from the very beginning for 8 mo.I had extreme exhaustion,felt like something was being ripped out of my bones,neck down, hands,fingers feet,buzzing vibration in my body,muscle pain,brain fog got heavier,really bad headaches.Had nausea in beginning but it got better as did tremors,hair stopped falling and every once in a while would have 2-3 days where everything lifted.Felt balanced in mind body spirit emotions. Will add more later.

[ 12-18-2009, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Healing in Santa Cruz ]

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R62
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pyorka, it looks like you trust your practioners or you trust Scott. Until Dr. K makes a statement, I think that's about where we are with this.

My practioners also believe that the 250 is the dosage and are using elemental. I am backing down to 15 mg and took my kids down to 7mg.

I have no support in place with practioners for detox, and I believe Scott is right. I see that people are doing the protocol using Core and Depyrrol and do not think it is at all for maintenance.

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sixgoofykids
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Depyrrol has 30 mg elemental zinc.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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pryorka
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Nah I don't distrust or trust my doctor or Scott. I know enough chemistry to know when things don't make sense that's all. But for that 250mg to be wrong multiple doctors including Dr. K and the first doctors that treated KPU back in the 80's would've had to know nothing about chemistry, which just can't be the case.

If any of you are that worried, remember that too much zinc will usually cause diarrhea much like magnesium does. Also remember Scott has been on the protocol for over 4 months so he should be at a lower dose at this point, so the confusion could have happened there.

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GiGi
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The written KPU Protocol from Dr. K's office which I received states:

"Zinc Picolinate 150-200 mg per day."

There is no doubt about it. I went and purchased zinc picolinate.


The variations come in as people get energetically
tested that some people need less and some need more. I won't list the rest of the protocol.

Detox support is shown as: Test to determine which is best -- Detoxamin, DMSA, DMPS, OSR, MicroSilica -- often a combination of these is used. Only after energetic (ART) testing.

I am not listing the complete protocol, since you all were debating the zinc portion of it.

I am certain that CORE is ART tested for each patient and if the combination does not fit, other protocols are established to fit the patient's needs.

If someone -- patient - doctor - is unable to energetically test, they have to decide which is the best way to proceed.

With regard to KPU, the zinc can also be taken in the form of gluconate, i.e. 150-200 mg of Zinc gluconate.

Take care.

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GiGi
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http://www.hputest.nl/ewhat.htm

This is an article talking about HPU aka KPU/

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R62
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Yes it does say that and Scott did say 25-50 mg elemental for the protocol, which is why we now need clarification from Dr. K.
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R62
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http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.com/KPUprotocol.pdf

http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.com/LymeProtocolOct09.pdf

http://klinghardtneurobiology.com/AmyDerksenART3presentation.pdf (good info on preparing for KPU, not so much info on KPU)

I believe its all in these links. Thriiive videos also contain information. Unfortunately, I think there are problems with access to the Thriiive video site.

He recommends the sulfur based detox agents last in line. First start with the binders which will mop up the gut and matrix, then edta, then sulfur based.

He emphasizes supporting kidneys, body for KPU with electrolytes and minerals, baking soda, phosporus which is contained the biopure electrolyte drink. He has borrowed some information from the Vitamin K protocol as well. In the Thriiive videos, there was more emphasis on preparing for KPU.

Core should be energetically tested or one should go by mineral tests, which ones are most accurate for which mineral, I would like to know: hair, urine, RBC, lymphocyte (zinc).

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Continuing what I was writing.About 3 week ago I started having more severe symptoms of all I have listed. Then more were added. Hair started falling again, I started dropping things,balance got off,nausea, dry heaves,on and off loose bowels,itching all over,my brain fog got extreme and confusion got very scary,tremors again,irritable and more. I had been doing all binders and they were energy tested.Baking soda baths had helped when things got bad before but they did not help with these out of hand symptoms.Scott wrote the new article and my Md got me right in and we lowered my dose of zink. He also read me a list of symptoms of being toxic zink and I had many.He is a homeopath besides being an Md and had a great list which is lots more than someone listed here for being zink toxic.I was on 90 mg and now on 45mg Of Thorne Zink Picolinate and happy to say symptoms are lifting.
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Healing in Santa Cruz
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I was doing all the things that R62 posted and still got into trouble.I felt at times like I was dying. My Md never put any of his patients on the 250 and we slowly ramped up. I feel Pyrroluria is a whole different ballgame when one has Lyme and co. The people that I know that are doing Core and the other all in one pill are not on maintenance.
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R62
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I sent an email to Dr. K asking for clarification and that the clarification be sent out to all practioners concerned.

There is an obvious confusion over this that needs to be officially clarified.

I hope others will also contact Dr. K.

I am not suggesting a deluge, but I doubt this will even come close to that.

Dr. K needs to hear the extent of the confusion and the fact that this confusion extends to the practioner administering the protocol.

(Moderators, I think this post comment is OK but if this is inappropriate, I apologize.)

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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R62 Good idea,I don't see why it should be a problem.I would think Doc's and other professionals would have written him by now.Unless they think they understand it.
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R62
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I think so. I hope so. My concern is for practioners who are not aware this is even an issue. They do not all follow Scott's blog. My practioners had never heard of Scott and when I talked with the medical coordinator, I had to impress upon her that Scott does not post this kind of info unless he is certain in his mind and that he is very credible. Of course, that would mean they would have to take my word on that.
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