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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Artemisinin immunity

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Author Topic: Artemisinin immunity
2roads
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We have not yet started it but we are to pulse 5 days on, 15 off.

We are not on any other anti-malarial.

Will this regiment be a problem with becoming immune to this supplement.

We were given a broad spectrum herbal for infection which we are taking now and will do so with the art, but it has done neither good nor bad.

All thoughts appreciated,
2roads

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2roads
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Correction to above post. It is ten days off not 15.

Thanks

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btmb03
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I'm on the same thing - without anti-malarials..my LLMD does not pulse 'cause he doesn't feel it causes resistance. So I imagine pulsing definitely wouldn't.

What brand and dosage of Art are you using? I'd love some others' input too. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

There used to be a thread of "Artemesia Buddies" but can't find it.

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sparkle7
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I think you stop the artemisinin because it can cause toxic reactions in the liver. It's probably to keep you from getting too toxic. I don't think it's due to getting a resistance to it.

Just an educated guess. I've been studying artemisinin. I haven't tried it yet.

If you do become immune, you can try quinine or Nutramedix Quina.

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Lauralyme
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I pulse it two days on, five days off

Holley Pharmaceuticals 1500mg a day (in three doses)

--------------------
Fall down seven times, get up eight
~Japanese proverb

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2roads
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Okay, but is it effective without Mepron?

I don't see many people on this site using it alone with a cured result.

Maybe I'm wrong.

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Hoosiers51
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I think you need to pair something else with it, that will at least hit babesia somewhat.

People talk about using Zithromax with it a lot. Biaxin might be another option. Perhaps even doxy/minocycline, because they are mild anti-malarials.

It might be okay to just put it with another anti-malarial herb.

BUT, artemisinin will become ineffective after about 3 days I think it was. So you do need to be pulsing it.

I have documentation about that, but it would take me awhile to dig it out, so just PM me if you want to see it.

Zhang claims that with his blend you don't need to pulse, but who knows. I think his blend uses artemisia, not artemisinin.

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2roads
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Hoosiers, what are you doing up at this hour?

Yeah, I need to double check which one is in my fridge, artemisinin or artemesia. I don't even know the difference.

Only problem with my herb is nobody on this site seems to know too much about it, so I'm feeling a little bit pitherbed with my herb.

Also, it's not for me but for my son.

I wonder how immunity begins. Would pulsing it every 5 days not three make sense then?

What I wouldn't give for it to be me not him. [shake]

Hugs,

2roads

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Hoosiers51
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I always heard you were supposed to do 3 days on it, then 4 off, then repeat.

Hope that helps!

And I have no clue why I'm still up! [Smile]

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sparkle7
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This is very informative-

http://home.pon.net/caat/lyme/artemisia.html

It says that the probability of a cure for babesia is very high after 40 days of treatment via Zhang's method with his herbs. It doesn't mention that you need abx or to pulse the herbs.

excerpt -

2) Babesiosis,

In my clinical application, usually one treatment course is 40 days. Most patient will see their Babesiosis title turns to negative after one course treatment. Very few people need a second course.

----

I think the links are old on this page. You have to do searches if you want further info.

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kareamber
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Anyone know much about Artesunate? I was supposed to take that for 6 weeks straight. I had to quit after the first week. Was very sick on it. I'd like to continue if that reaction was a herx.

--------------------
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2roads
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Btm, my son is around 60 lbs and I was told to give him 600 mg of Artemisinin per day, or 200 mg 3X per day. It comes from Allergyresearchgroup, and I ordered it through a place called Moss Nutrition. See mossnutrition.com. Hope this helps even though it is for my son, not an adult.

Thanks Hoosiers. I cannot say the rational for the pulse sequence of 5/10. But, your info gives me more understanding.

Sparkle, your literature offers hope for a Babs cure, although we are not on Zang protocol.

Thanks Much,

2roads

2roads

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Amanda
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Let me tell you that I took Dr. Zhangs every day for a year, and then for last year 4 days on, three days off, and I still have Babs.

Art stimulates an enzyme system in your liver over the course of several days, and that enzyme pathway begins to break down the art. You take a break becuase you are avoiding the enzyme system from breaking down the art.

Also, FYI, that same enzyme pathway can cause other kinds of medicines to also break down more quickly.

I have been sick for a while now, and one thing I have been learning is that all these herbs and things can cause your medicines to be more of less effective. I often times feel that the LLMDS sort of throw the kitchen sick at us, because the are desperate to help us, which I am grateful for. But there is a lot we don't know about how certain herbs effect medicine.

The lyme times had a great article on this...

--------------------
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MariaA
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there are two issues:
-the fear that babesia could develop a resistance to artemesinin monotherapy the way that some malaria has (these days they combine artemesinin with antibiotics when treating malaria to prevent resistance). This has nothing to do with the pulse schedule, and more to do with taking artemesinin with another drug. At the very least, I'd take cryptolepsis herb if I couldn't take antibiotics or antimalarials. I had to do several antimalarials all at once to get rid of my babesia symptoms (Mepron/biaxin, artemesinin, cryptolepsis, and Alinia- that was no fun). Again, this isn't a pulsing issue.


-The other issue, as someone just correctly pointed out, is that your body will build up some enzymes that detoxify (excrete) artemesinin, so we pulse in order to keep those enzyme levels from being high.

If I remember right, artemesinin is metabolized by both the p-450 system that most drugs are, and also by the action of some other some other enzymes.

To slow down the excretion of drugs that are metabolized by the cytochrome p-450 pathway specifically, you could try daily grapefruit juice (though this is very dangerous to do if you're taking any other drugs as their doses and action in the body will be affected also- ask your doctor, most of them know about these interactions with grapefruit by now, AND check an online drug interactions checker such as this one: http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php). This seems to be an issue with grapefruit only, not other citrus.

Grapefruit juice still won't protect you from the activity of the other artemesinin-detoxing enzymes (assuming I remember all of this correctly from reading about malaria a while back).

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
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MariaA
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OK, annoyingly, the drugs.com interactions checker doesn't take artemesinin as an option. They list artemether. It's related but not entirely the same thing. Arghhhh...

You can probably find another resource on the internet about grapefruit juice and drug interactions, I've seen a lot of pages about it.

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
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MariaA
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Also, if I remember right, it takes a certain number of doses of artemesinin in order to build up levels in your body to a high enough level to treat malaria . So I think you don't want to pulse it 'every other day' or anything like that- it sounds like you want to pulse it for a few days then take a few days off. I don't remember what most LLMD's recommend, I think I was taking it for 5 days with 3 days off but I was mostly managing my own artemesinin therapy and not really asking my doctor about it.

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
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Herbal Links Thread

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2roads
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Thanks Amanda and Maria.

I really don't know if I should have my son start this therapy. It makes no sense to me. I would hate for him to develop an immunity to it and then have it be useless.

I am so frustrated!

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btmb03
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Wow great info on Art guys - I just spoke to my LLMD's office today (yes, one of the big guns) and he said something similar to what MariaA wrote.

On my tiny doses of Art + Macrolide he doesn't feel I need to pulse at all. He also isn't doing any liver support.

With respect to the CYP450 he says it's a 'rare' condition and doesn't feel I need to test for it.

Will have to reread this thread, this is one of those brain-less days.. [dizzy]

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Re: pulsing Art my LLMD stated that they usually pulse 5 on 2 off or other combs depending on the dose + tolerance. They take their pts off around the 3 mth mark.
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sparkle7
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FYI -

http://www.personalconsult.com/articles/newlymeformulations.html

excerpt-

(re: Zhang's herbs)

Original Artemisia Capsule contains active ingredient artesunate and every capsule has 33.33 mg of artesunate. One-day take three capsules makes daily dose of 100 mg, which is recommended anti-malaria dose. When used for anti-malaria, one-week treatment course is enough.

But we have seen that even three months long treatment course still can't totally eradicate the babesia in some patients. Therefore we developed this new Artemisia 2 Capsule. Its active ingredient is Dihydroartemisinin (DHA), a derivertive of artemisinin.

It is a front line anti-malaria agent and has been effectively used for millions of malaria cases. It is much stronger than artemisinin and also has less adverse reactions. The recomemnded anti-malaria dose is 60 mg per day and its efficacy equvalent to 100 mg of artesunate.

Now the Artemisia 2 Capsule contains 40 mg of DHA in each capsule, one day three capsules makes the daily dose of 120 mg of DHA. Therefore it is the double strength of anti-malaria dosage.

For those patients have not respond to the Artemisia Capsule three capsules per day protocol, this new Artemisia 2 Capsule may help to increase the respond rate. At beginning the Herxheimer's reaction strength may also increase.

---

I haven't known to fight babesia for very long so I'm fairly new to this.

It seems to me that most people don't give the straight herbs a chance to work & just take the abx or herbs + abx. I don't know if this is the case for everyone but it seems that people go straight for the abx.

Lots of stuff I've read suggests that you can treat this with herbs alone.

I'm not sure if mixing herbs with abx is something that is effective over the long run. It may seem logical but it may be counter-productive in some cases. I'm not a scientist but this is what my intuition tells me.

I have been waiting for my doctor to send me a prescription - so, in the meantime I decided to try Quina (which is quinine). I've been herxing alot from 4 drops. I think I'm just going to continue with this & not even bother with the abx for now.

I have read that there may be different forms of babesia which may be causing people to be ill with fibromyalgia-like symptoms. I do not have the "classic" symptoms of babesia.

It may be another pathogen altogether. We don't really know.

I may be an idiot but the idea of abx is that they can kill your immune system along with the pathogens. How can our bodies fight these bugs if we are dealing with candida & our immune system is overloaded?

Is there any reason that anyone knows of as to why more doctors aren't using quinine?

I'm not trying to offend anyone who believes in abx. I'm not against drugs but they have their limitations. I've read about so many people who feel better for a while on the drugs & then relapse.

It doesn't seem that they are really effective in the long run. Please excuse me if I'm mistaken.

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MariaA
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where did you get the info that antibiotics 'can kill your immune system"? It's much more complicated than that.

QUinine is one of the drugs that malaria quickly developed resistance to. I'm not sure if anyone knows whether that's also likely to be the case with babesia, or with babesia treated with a quinine-containing herb (lots of whole herbs work better against bacteria and pathogens than single-action drugs do, in terms of resistance specifically)

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
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sparkle7
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I was going by the idea that alot of our immune system is in the gut. If you develop chronic yeast - the immune system can't really function effectively.

Just in my experience, I became very ill with side effects from the abx. I don't see how I could heal if my body was battling all of the side effects. I don't see how my immune system could have been functioning properly if I was so ill just from the drugs.

I may be totally off base.

I guess, I started herxing alot from a small dose of quinine. I was just wondering why it wasn't being used more. It's not really a drug per se. It's a bark in it's natural form. I don't know which forms of malaria have developed resistance & if that is the case with babesia.

I don't know if there are drug resistant forms of malaria separate from the basic forms of the illness. Quinine has a long history. I was just wondering why it wasn't being used more often.

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btmb03
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Other than the resistance issue didn't quinine have er..other unwanted side effects such as - loss of hearing? Maybe I've watched too many old movies on TCM??
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MariaA
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkle7:
I was going by the idea that alot of our immune system is in the gut. If you develop chronic yeast - the immune system can't really function effectively.

Don't take any of this personally- but I've had, for a while, this really big annoyance with the statement 'most of the immune system is in the gut'. What is that backed up by? (I don't mean this personally and I know you research things really well)

I think it might be partially one of those alt-med truisms that everyone repeats because it sounds good and Mercola published it once or something- I mean, probiotics ARE extremely important, and proper digestion is EXTREMELY important to health, but our actual immune cells are made elsewhere, and most of the activity happens through cells that circulate in lymph or blood. Obviously the gut has a lot of contact with foreign pathogens, but most of those are destroyed by stomach acid (I think I've read that's why we instinctively swallow nose "snot" when we can't blow our nose- the stomach acid is supposed to destroys air-borne pathogens that the mucus captured)

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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sparkle7
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Here's a start -

Bacterial modulation of mucosal innate immunity
http://tinyurl.com/y8hke73

or

Effects of Microbiota on GI Health: Gnotobiotic Research

excerpt-

The complex interactions between the GI tract microbiota and the immune system can be simplified for study using gnotobiotic animal models. The importance of cytokines, such as IFN-γ, TNF-α, TGF-β, Interleukin-2, IL-4 and IL-10 in the host response to intestinal bacteria has been evaluated using gnotobiotic studies.

Gnotobiotic experiments with immunodeficient animals have revealed insights into the relationships between innate, cell-mediated and antibody-mediated immune system components in resistance to infectious microorganisms.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k365nm15nq038671/

---

There's alot of info if you google it. It's not just pop science stuff. It gets pretty complicated.

Look into - Gut-associated lymphoid tissue (GALT).

-

PS - I don't take it personally. We all have a right to our opinions!

Your statement gave me an opportunity to do some further research...

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2roads
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What great info...thanks everyone.

Hugs,

2roads

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