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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Buhner on Success Rates with Healing Lyme Protocol

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Author Topic: Buhner on Success Rates with Healing Lyme Protocol
seibertneurolyme
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Many people often question whether herbs are effective. Here is a post from Planet Thrive discussing the results of patients with Buhner herbs.

http://planetthrive.com/2009/11/healing-lyme/

Personally I feel hubby falls in the 10-20% who continue to need support. But on the other hand, I had misplaced my book for about a year and upon rereading it find I need to finetune the herbs I am using.

I think it is very important to use the exact herbs suggested in the book -- for example I think hubby did better on the Source Naturals brand of Resveratrol made from Japanese Knotweed. I was still using Source Naturals but had switched to a higher Resveratrol content product but it is from grapeseed I think.

I do think that possibly the Lyme protocol is more effective than those for babs or bart. But I feel the cryptolepis which is not in the book is a great herb for both bart and babs and it does defintiely cross the blood-brain barrier.

Hubby is experimenting with stephania tincture now. Also feel this defintiely crosses the blood-brain barrier. And I would agree with Buhner that it could possibly help with tremors.

http://planetthrive.com/2010/01/hand-tremors/

Just started hubby on the Siberian ginseng tincture. Am very curious as to whether that will help boost his immune system. Luckyvitamin has a very good price on the Herb Pharm tincture in 4 ounce bottles as recommended in the book. Think I will drop the astragalus another herbalist has had hubby on for a year or two and just go with the eleuthero tincture.

Going to give all these new changes at least a month and then will see where we go from here. Hubby is so frustrated with the nightly spells of shaking and dry heaves and muscle aches.

The minocycline, low-dose clindamycin, low dose zithromax and high dose rifampin are keeping him somewhat stable, but I am hoping the additional herbs are the boost he needs.

Also going to add back the SpiroKete or SPK from Kroeger herb. Had run out of this. Will continue on the andrographis, sarsaparilla and everything else he was already on. Will post back in a month or two how the new protocol is working out.

It seems so unexplainable that hubby's tremors are gone probably 80 or 90% of the time and generally just show up when he wakes up during his nightly spells. Doc wants him to decrease his Cortef from 10 mg daily to 5 mg daily. After that change the next med we will work on is decreasing the oral Ativan again -- he had gotten the dose down from 3 mg daily to 1/2 mg daily over the course of about a year before his last major crash in October 2009. But since then he has been on a 3 mg daily scheduled dose regimen.

Bea Seibert

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MariaA
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Siberian Ginseng will probably affect his adrenals, so watch the cortef and it's effects if you're changing that at the same time as adding Siberian Ginseng.

I've recently made a bunch of Siberian Ginseng tincture from dry herb from mountainroseherbals.com- I think the total cost for about a quart of Russian-dosages (see Buhner book) tincture was about $20 or less. Since we use SO much of this herb when taking it daily it might be a good idea to explore making your own tincture. I made mine over the summer and forgot about it, so it steeped for a lot of months, but some tincture making instructions list a 2-week steeping period (with daily shaking, which I din't think does much)as adequate. Next time I make some I'm letting it steep for only a month.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

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seibertneurolyme
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Thanks Maria,

Hubby has had low or borderline sodium levels for a couple of years now. It would be great if the ginseng did improve his adrenal function. Have tried other adaptogens such as rhodiola at lower doses and they didn't seem to do much for him.

Bea Seibert

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canefan17
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I can vouch for the ginseng.

Has helped me big time in conjunction with other adrenal herbs

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MariaA
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Bea,
I think some of the efficacy of some of these herbs IS dose-dependent, at least in our cases when we're already dealing with a lot of damaged systems.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
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hobokinite
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Can someone tell me their herbal and nutritional combo for adrenal support?

Thanks, Michael

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nefferdun
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For adrenal support I was given ashwaganda.

The problem with the percentages given by these herbalist is that they really do not know how many people are not responding because they do not follow up everyone. When I bought thousands of dollars from Zhang and Cowden, no one ever emailed asking, "how is it going?" When I quit buying it, there was no email asking if it had not worked for me so I was never included in whatever survey they took and I am sure there are many more people like me.

Those percentages are pretty much the same as what is given for abx and most of the other protocols. There is always a small spot reserved for failure but it seems like these forums are full of people falling into that little percentage.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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jenny76
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My LLMD said I could use Resveratrol for liver support and perhaps andrographis added at some point. Do you know if these cause stomach upset?

--------------------
Never, Never, Never give up!

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sparkle7
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I've been taking Jarrow Adrenal Optimizer. It seems pretty good.

http://www.jarrow.com/product/443/Adrenal_Optimizer

nefferdun - what are you using now as your protocol (if you don't mind me asking)?

Since I have been dowsing the herbs & supplements, it really surprises me what I need to take at what dosage. Some days it's take 20 drops of cryptolepsis & other days it's stop it completely.

I find that there must be some rationale to it. It so obviously one way or another - it's not indefinite. I was going through a pretty big herx with the cryptolepsis & then the dowsing said to stop.

It seems I needed to stop to allow my body to detox. I've been doing Nutramedix Quina & cryptolepsis. I'm also doing a bunch of other stuff but it's too involved to go into.

Being able to dowse the supplements, herbs, & drugs may be helpful since we have so many choices to make on these protocols. Especially, if we are doing alot of our research on our own.

At first, I didn't want to trust it but I think it does work. It just takes some practice.

With the Resveratrol - it seems that it's the knotweed. Herbs can have other components - so, it may be better to use the whole herb as opposed to a synthesized component. It may not always be the case but it may be true of knotweed.

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seibertneurolyme
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nefferdun,

I agree that the success rates aren't really reliable -- however, at least with the Buhner protocol it is pretty cheap to buy just one bottle of the 3 or 4 main herbs and at least just try them to see if you get any response at all.

I would love to see a clinical trial of the Buhner, Zhang and Cowden protocols -- doubt that will ever happen though.

hobo,

Hubby has tried nutritional supplements for adrenal support -- hasn't seemed to do much for him. Vitamin C and B5 (pantothenic acid) are both needed. There are a couple of articles posted here on lymenet. Will see if I can't find a link.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/39511


Am going to try hubby on the herbal route again -- plan to take the eleuthero per Buhner suggested doses. Also have ordered a bottle of nettle seed extract from Elk Mountain Herbs. Hubby has been having some very mild kidney issues and that herb is supposed to be good for both adrenal support and kidney function. Read more here on the nettle seed.

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/blog/nettle-seed.html

Hubby tried to take ashwagandha in the past -- did not do well on that at all -- never got past one tablet a day. Think that herb affects acetylcholine which is a big problem for him.

Jenny,

Hubby never had any G.I. issues with resvertrol (Japanese knotweed source) or andrographis. He had very strong reactions when he started taking both of these herbs though. I started with only one capsule of each per day and he worked up from there. I remember specifically that the resveratrol initially made him dizzy. I think I waited 3 or 4 days before trying it again.

But he eventually worked up to 12 capsules per day of each of these 2 herbs. He is still taking 12 capsules of the andrographis but I cut the resveratrol down to 6 capsules several months ago.

Bea Seibert

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Brussels
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I don't know why you all continue with herbs while photon therapy is MUCH faster and 'easier', in my opinion. I needed a combination of average 40-70 substances a day, some like Buhner's herbs, needed intake 3 times a day, some just once....

That was to feel stable during lyme. I just found my notes a week before I started photons last January, and I had a schedule written down: I had to write what to take EVERY SINGLE HOUR I was awaken due to remedy /herbal/ homeopathic interaction and to keep the herb intake in high, intermixing cleansers and the various killers.

The protocol was impossible to memorize, I had to write it down and take the paper wherever I went.

Going out was like big planning, what to take with me, until what time I come home so that I know what to take, etc... I'm sure you all know what I mean.

I loved eleuthero and stephania. Stephania is one of my favorites, much more than smilax, for example. I can't tolerate much of Jap Knotweed either, but stephania matched me much. Combined with cats claw, it was very good.

I don't think Buhner's herbs are definitive solution for coinfections, but I do think that the combination he proposes (plus a few tunings like Bea suggests) is the best combination for borrelia (meaning, remedies taken by the mouth). I would add cardamon though and noni for the cysts though.

Even though I loved the herbs, had I known photon therapy before, I would have gone straight to photons. The reason is that photon treatment is easier, the effect doesn't wean fast in a matter of hours like herbs and antibiotics (that need constant intake to continue the killing or immune boosting, right?).

Photons act continuously, for days on, sometimes weeks on. Life gets MUCH easier. I never needed to write anything down. Going out was not reason for stress and planning....

And you can go to bed knowing your body is not resting, but still doing its killing job.

I mean, that's just my opinion. Since last January, first day I started photons (and stopped in May, because my lyme went dormant), I never touched a SINGLE Buhner herb nor any Cowden either. Just herbs to cleanse, yes.

I still brought herbs with me here in Korea, but they're still in the box.

Total price of photon therapy in the end is much cheaper because mostly is a one time shopping. You don't ingest the killers, you take them through photons. So you buy once and that's all. You just have to continue investing on cleansers, because the body is in constant killing mode.

If you still decide to go on by herbs, buying in bulk saves LOADS of money and you can tune the amounts pretty well.

I don't need eleuthero for a year now. It was one of my favorites too.

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sparkle7
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Thanks Brussels. This is interesting. I had a bad reaction to the infrared in the past. I'm kind of cautious with it.

I may have to rethink it now. I have most of the herbs here.

I had no idea to even treat babesia until a few weeks ago. I only started with Quina & cryptolepsis... They made me herx alot - so, I figured I'd stick with it & dowsing. Then, maybe go on to artemesia.

I'm also taking knotweed & stephania on & off.

Would you suggest making homeopathic preparations of the babesia herbs & using that with the infrared light?

I'm not exactly sure what I'm treating. I don't have typical babesia symptoms. The anti-malarials did make me herx, though.

I was getting ready to give up about a month ago. I figured I had fibro & nothing was going to help except pain meds... My doctor said he thought I should treat babesia. I tried the Quina & sure enough - I started herxing.

Thanks for the reminder about all of this. I think we came pretty far with it. I just got very frustrated that I was still ill after everything. I didn't know to treat babesia, though.

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lpkayak
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maria-can you explain more about eleuthero and cortef?

my brain is pretty slow right now. i take 10 mg cortef and last november(after getting the flu twice-once in april and once in oct) i started taking NAC, eleuthero and D3 to help keep the flu away

it has worked really well and even tho i have been exposed a number of times i have not caught any virus's

i have also been taking a tea i make from sarsa, stephania, red root and jap knot. (i cant do catsclaw til i get my reflux under control) and bart and lumps seems to be my biggest problem now anyway.

anyway-i have noticed my insomnia is less of a problem. at first i thought it was just the tea giving me fatigue from a herx-but then i started thinking it seemed the cortef and armour i take were finally doing what they were supposed to do cuz i was falling asleep at a normal time and staying asleep longer and actually dreaming.

now i wonder if the eleuthero cortef combo is a good thing for me

i feel so good abut NAC and eleutero i don't think i will ever stop them. they just work-with no problems.

thanks.

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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MariaA
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wow, wonderful to hear that eleuthero has helped (also the other stuff). I know you've been having a hard time.

What I was saying above is that eleuthero might help improve adrenal function, and if someone is already on Cortef, they should be aware of that, because it may change their need for Cortef.

There seems to be an initial 'high' that people get when they start on eleuthero- that usually wears off after a week or two. You might be jittery at first or temoprarily have more energy than usual. It's normal for this to wear off. It doesn't mean that it's not working- eleuthero works well to stabilize immune system function and adrenal function in long-term use.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

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pamoisondelune
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sparkle, Here's what i take for Babesia, in case you're interested:

Raintree Amazon A-P, 3 pills, 3x/day w food

Noni

Elecampane

Coptis

and i used to take also Artemisinin and Artemesia annua, but i stopped taking them since i have no more symptoms, or maybe a few.

I've been taking these herbs for one year. I think i still had babesia symptoms after 5 or 6 months, but mostly not much after that. This is an herbal combo that keeps my babesia symptoms down or maybe out, if in fact that's what i have or had.

I'm just telling you because i think the Raintree Amazon A-P REALLY WORKED, after several months; not right away, not the first months.

Of course, you may have a different experience!

---Polly Polygonum

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sparkle7
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Thanks pamoisondelune !

I was thinking of ordering artemesia from the big Chinese bulk herb place & making my own caps. There's also a company that sells it in pill form but it's pretty expensive.

http://www.hepalin.com./products.htm

Then, after reading Brussels post - I was thinking of making a homeopathic preparation & using the LightWorks (via the Dr. W method - bionic 880, etc.). I could also get a babesia nosode & try it...

We do have many options... I'm still herxing quite a bit from cryptolepsis & Nutramedix Quina.

I have to sit down & decide what to do next. I think it's good to change the treatments around to prevent resistance.

Raintree Amazon seems like a very good company.

PS - The Raintree A-P seems like good stuff! I haven't seen many products that have quinine. I'm going to add that to my list of stuff to consider. I was thinking of just getting the quinine & making my own tincture.

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seibertneurolyme
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Brussels,

Personally I am not convinced yet that photon therapy is the way to go. A trip to Germany is totally out of the question financially. Not real sure how effective some of the other options are.

Probably my biggest objection is the fact that hubby had 3 IV UVB treatments -- know that is not the same, but it is a somewhat similar principle. He had not had antibiotics at the time and herxed very much from those treatments.

For now continuing antibiotics and herbs is the plan.

In the future -- who knows?

Polly P -- Had about forgotten about the Amazon Raintree product. It is still on my list of things to try at some point.

Bea Seibert

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ukcarry
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Selma, it's good to know that you are still doing well with the biophotons.

You are so in touch with your body that you are probably in a very good position to handle the detox side of killing.

I know you used to use chlorella a lot: could you describe what other cleansers/ binders you have been using with the photons?

All the best,

Carry

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Brussels
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Sorry for my disappearance. Life is hectic these days, it will be worse in the next ones as I'm planning to move on top of all...

------
Well, Sparkle: I had a thread about babesia here, under Hardynaka (my old screen name). All herbs I did for babesia were there. I always say I believe we need a double treatment for babesia, one that kills the dormant forms after we get to symptomless.

What happened to me was that I got symtpomless until I stopped herbs. Then symptoms came back. My babesia symptoms always kept changing. But the brain fog and extreme fatigue always came back.

The fog was the worst fog ever and the herxes, the worst herxes I ever had. Only these were constant, all other symptoms kept shifting.

I don't know if the bigger protozoan will react as well with photons and nosodes as the smallest ones (like borrelia and viruses).

I didn't have babesia when I fought lyme with photons. But my daughter had it. Her babesia was never issue number one for her though, so she might have got rid of it because her borrelia got dormant.

We did a knee liquid nosode with many pathogens (including staph) and everything went to dormant anyway. She had ehrlichia too and others I can't remember. You got to read my posts in the PE1 thread, as I can't remember anymore.

I BELIEVE (but I am not sure) that larger pathogens react better with electromagnetic current (rife, KMT whatever) than with photons. But I can't be sure, unless I get someone sick with strong babesia in front of me and energetically test both 'killing' methods to compare.

I would never leave the cardamon away though. Easy to take, it's food in India, warm your body and cleans your lymph. I believe it kills babesia cysts too. If cardamon alone doesn't work, then add Noni.

I once was saved from relapses by Noni, the second reinfection, Noni alone didn't work, I had to take cardamon and it did the job. Since then, I never stopped cardamon, as I always feel it's an excellent (and mild) cleanser.

As I told you before, I believe some pathogens and parasites profit from photons. And we detox heavy metals from photon treatment too. So it can be a dangerous treatment...

I would only do photons if I can test energetically a person. A person full of parasites would have a hard time with it. I had many people with parasites testing very bad for photon treatment. Many. That's why I got sort of convinced that parasites like photons as well as we do.

At the same time, I never found a virus that liked photons, so I came to believe that all viruses go dormant with photon treatment. Only time will tell though (if other people continue with photons...)

Whatever the main issue of the person, we have to 'think' and decide. If the main issue is parasites, I would run away from photons. If the main issue is borrelia or viruses, I would jump into photon treatment as fast as I could...

--------------
Carry: I had a very hard time with detoxing. I believe now that all lyme sufferers (or chronic infection sufferers) can't detox well. And that is the main reason why we fall sick.

The toxins that we acumulate mess with our immune system, the body gets to a halt and stops doing everything as well as it would, if it were clean.

With photons, the MAIN problem I found is that the body NEVER stops killing. It is very different than herbs and antibiotics that we get a pause in between intake. I always had the herx + cleanser + ease of symptoms phases with herbs or even, ingested nosodes.

With nosodes taken through photons, my body entered a NON-STOP killing. The body gets slowly filled with toxins and no matter how many times a day I took ingested cleansers, the toxic build up continued to grow (I only had a couple of hours free of herxes immediately after cleansers, but during the night it was hard to ingest cleansers every hour or every two hours...).

I found that to be a problem with photon treatment because I couldn't stop killing (like I did with cats claw, andrographis, whatever). That's a danger.

Dr. W. uses IV cleansers from Heel (solidago, lymphomyosot, hepar compositum), iv magnesium, and ozone, right? I cannot do that myself, so I used the Heel products THROUGH PHOTONS.

I was already familiar with these Heel products through INGESTION before I knew about photons. They were already helpful when ingested. But when taken through photons, they also CLEAN THE WHOLE TIME, non stop!!!

So I found a gun to counteract constant killing. Constant cleansing!!

So these Heel products were my main cleansers, that I took in different days than killing treatment. Since I found out it was possible to take these cleansers through photons, my life got better as I was less afraid of the building up of herxes 24h/24h!

Another MAIN product that saved me many times was the magic trio mix UBICHINON + COENZYME COMP + CITROKEHL. This trio corrects your body in SO many ways (Coenzyme Co10, many other coenzymes and in energy with citric acid), it helps in both energy and in cleansing in the most profound ways I could dream of a product (it is not a product but a combination, from Heel and Sanum products).

I used to drink these mixed trio many times a day, and when I found out I could just take them through photons too, well, life got much easier. I also didn't need to buy them anymore. Just one vial of each is enough for the whole treatment!!

It is very very inexpensive in comparison to any other method because we use the same vials on and on. We treat the whole family with the same vials!

In between, I added my friends INGESTED: chlorella, bear garlic, rechts regulat, whatever tested, but killers, barely any anymore (only for the infections that tested bad with photons). My life got so MCUH easier!

With herbs, as we all have so many active infections during active lyme, the task is very hard! I always needed an average of 2-3 herbs BY each infection. And this was just to kill. Then we got to add cleansers, you multiply the number by two.

When I found about 5 active infections, I had to COMBINE all these 15 killing herbs. Multiplied by 2, it makes about 30 cleansers a day to feel 'normal' and go on living. I am not exagerating!

And herbs don't always combine to be taken simultaneously, right? So I spent my whole day taking cocktails of different herbs to avoid interaction, intermixed with cleansers, immuno modulators, boosters, magnesium whatever homeopathics tested on top....

By the time I tested my lyme somewhere last year, in February or March, I had more than 50 active infections. I stopped counting. If I had to go the herbal way to kill infections, I would be still sick, I think...

The herbs DO WORK, in my opinion. They worked for me before (but I relapsed less than 6 months after stopping all lyme treatments). But I would only do herbs AGAIN if I had only one or two active infections. With lyme, you can literally count by dozens!! Fighting lyme ONLY with herbs is a life that I don't want to live again.

I mean, if there's a shorter and easier way, that's what I would do: a combination of photons for the pathogens that react with photons, and herbs + Eletromagnetic current for the ones that don't.

Photons did help me with energy. And still do from times to times. If I still feel too tired after longer hiking days, after skiing, after whatever more extreme physical or emotional stress, I still use photons. If I overeat some day, I have bloating, I use photons too. It helps a bit.

If someone has muscle strain, tooth ache, muscle pain, back pain, I still use that on them too. I mean, even without lyme, I still use the machine here and then. Without nosodes though!

-----------

Bea, I didn't go to Germany. I did at home from start.

-----
Yes eleuthero was one of my favorites too. I think it does help some lyme sufferers. It's been though certainly more than I year I don't touch it. It simply stopped testing after lyme went dormant.

Again, I believe photons do a sort of energy boosting that no immunomodulator/ immuno booster can compare. I used to also like Thai ginseng... Never touched it anymore.

All my Sanum immuno modulators (they have quite a LOT of products for that), they NEVER tested again.

--
OK, I will leave the thread BACK to herbs now, I won't post back again here! Sorry for my popping in here!

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ukcarry
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Thanks for your full answer, Selma and all good wishes for your continued health,


Carry

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sparkle7
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Thanks Brussels! This confirms what I was thinking regarding babesia & parasites with photons. This is why I had a bad reaction to the LightWorks in the past.

I use it for muscle pain on occasion but I'm kind of cautious about using it for other things. I was researching use of the Bionic 880 & babesia & there isn't alot of info on it. Seems that it's not the optimum treatment for babesia.

I've dowsed & it's NO for Rife, as well...

I will look up some of the old threads when I have time. I have alot of thinking to do about all of this. My feeling is that I will have to stick with the herbs for now. I'm getting a NO for abx, too.

For people's info out there - I never had typical babesia symptoms. This is why I never treated it. What Brussels says may be true - it doesn't always present with typical symptoms.

It may not even really be babesia but we just don't know. It may be a babesia-like pathogen or some different strain...

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seibertneurolyme
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Selma -- Thanks for answering. It is always good to get another perspective.

Sparkle -- Another herb to consider for babesia is Stephania. According to Buhner in Healing Lyme it will work on drug resistant malaria and I would think it would help with babs as well. Hubby's LLMD thinks he might still have low level babs -- we don't think so. But on the other hand the chills, fevers and sweats from increasing the stephania could possibly be bads related.

Bea Seibert

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pamoisondelune
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I got some evidence showing that the Raintree Amazon A-P DOES keep my babesia symptoms down, but did NOT eradicate them.

I missed 5 doses , 3 doses on Monday, 2 on Tuesday.

I got a few ambiguous slight symptoms. Then on Thursday i got an unmistakable "Babesia" symptom--- (or what i call Babesia that causes the set of symptoms deep-colored urine, faint night sweat-on-bak-of-neck, and sternum-up-through-esophagus/throat tightness/pain,brief attack---and which responds to Mepron/Zithromax).

I got the brief, intense, tight pain in sternum and esophagus /throat.

So i took a double dose of Raintree Amazon A-P, which is 6 pills, 3900 mg. I have taken the double dose before and felt it was more effective.

I don't mind taking these herbs with meals indefinitely to keep the symptoms away. However, the Raintree Amazon A-P is expensive, so i think it is time to order the component herbs in bulk, a pound of each, and start taking pill-size doses of a combination of them.

There is quite a lot of leeway of how much to take, so i won't be in danger (i think) if i'm getting the proportions wrong by a factor of 2 or maybe 4.

Finding the right proportions is EXPERIMENTAL, i'll just have to guess, since the Raintree recipe is a company secret! But i do have some guidance, now that i know i WILL get symptoms if the proportions aren't adequate. I guess i should read more about the individual herbs before starting this.

Thank you, Selma, for insights about protozoa and photons!! I was about to jump into photoning as a cure for everything!! Your advice is crucial!!

---Polly Polygonum
---or Nilufar Knotweed

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sparkle7
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Thanks Bea. Yes, I have the Stephania here, too. I'm alternating 5 drops of Quina & 5 drops of cryptolepsis. I was up to about 20 of the crypto but it got to be too much.

I have Banderol but I don't have Noni. So, the Noni & the artemesia I could rotate in at some point later. I've also been getting a YES for Enula. I'm also interested in the Rainforest A-P.

I like cardamon & I have some here. I was thinking of trying it via an essential oil mixed in some coconut or other carrier oil. One could potentially massage it in the feet or other area...(?)

When I dowse - I usually get to take all of them separately - not at the same time. I know what Brussels means to be attached to the dosing...

Seems it's a lifelong thing with these pathogens... Some people seem to be doing OK but we just have to keep treating until we feel better - which is when???

It's seems better to keep using the herbs than abx - if you have to continually treat.

I'm getting ready to try the Ivermectin. I figured I'd give it a go.

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pamoisondelune
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Another way that may give me a clue for concocting my own imitation Rainforest Amazon A-P--- to see if i've got the proportions right---

using bulk herbs from Raintree, a pound of each of 12 herbs!--

this clue is: i could start tasting the herbs in the Amazon A-P pills, opening them up; if i get used to the taste,

then maybe i could identify a correctly proportionate mix by the taste!

----Polly Polygonum
----or Nilufar Knotweed

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sparkle7
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pamoisondelune - sounds interesting... I usually cook by smell.

Do you have any experience with dowsing? Maybe you could try dowsing it to see how much of each ingredient?

Are you taking this for parasites or Lyme or co-infections?

12 lbs sounds like alot of caps! Sometimes, it's good to rotate the herbs & try something different. Some herbs can deplete certain nutrients or the bugs can build a resistance.

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pamoisondelune
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Sparkle--- I'm taking it for BABESIA! Just BABESIA.

Yes, 12 lbs sounds as if i should be sharing it with someone!

I tried eating it to get used to the taste. Very dry, takes a long time to eat the contents of the pill. I think Quinine would be the limiting factor--- that shouldn't be overdosed, right?

I'll never be able to do muscle testing or pendulum or anything like that, because i don't believe i could do it, i lack faith. Anyway, an LLMD recently muscle tested me for Babesia and said i tested NEGATIVE, so what's the use anyway? He says his muscle testing AGREES with blood tests! So what--- my Babesia blood tests are negative! He doesn't know what to muscle test me FOR. Whatever i have, it has this set of symptoms, responds to this set of herbs, and resembles Babesia partially in symptoms and greatly in response to trx like Mepron/Zith and Artemisinin etc.

Yes, if i knew what to add to this routine, maybe i could knock it out. Good idea, add something--- what? Can they build resistance to polytherapy? Coptis, NOni, Elecampane, 12 herbs in Amazon A-P? I do have Cryptolepis, i should add that. I should buy some more cardamom.

About Stephania--- i've always been afraid to try it, because i read there are a lot of close relatives of this Stephania; only one is the medicine, and some others are carcinogenic. Can i trust that they picked the right one?

Good ideas, sparkle,--- thanks.

----Polly Polygonum
-----or Nilufar Knotweed

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seibertneurolyme
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Polly,

If your symptoms came back after just missing 5 doses -- I would guess that you are dealing with bart or BLO or mycoplasma rather than babesia. This is based on hubby's experiences.

As for other herbs to try for babesia -- I think Sparkle posted a link to the journal article on Indonesian herbs -- you could try adding neem or turmeric -- both are listed in that article as is noni.

If you use the size 0 capsules a pound of herbs will make about 1000 capsules which are aprrox 450 mg each. With size 00 capsules you get about 700 capsules per pound which are approx 650 mg each.

Bea Seibert

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sparkle7
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Polly- Dowsing is not hard. It's just a technique. It just takes a little practice. Maybe some day you could try it?

Not all muscle testing or dowsing is accurate - just like lab tests... I do find it helpful. There are so many choices of what to use to treat ourselves with. It's hard to know what to do.

What I have been finding is that I need alot less of mostly everything than what the suggested dose is.

I am starting to think that there are probably many other co-infections that we may not know about aside from the usual ones.

Here the link about the Indonesian herbs -
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jvms/67/8/829/_pdf

PS - Thanks Bea, for the capsule info...

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djf2005
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where do you all get your cryptolepis?

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

[email protected]

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sparkle7
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http://www.woodlandessence.com/

Also, Bear Creek Herbs is supposed to have it but I didn't see it on their website.

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pamoisondelune
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Cryptolepis at

/www.woodlandessence.com/

Thank you Bea and Sparkle for input! Your advice is appreciated!

---Polly Polygonum
----or Nilufar Knotweed

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djf2005
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Thanks guys

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

[email protected]

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canefan17
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Any results with crypto?
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pamoisondelune
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Cryptolepis yes!

I missed a few doses of Elecampane drops and got red-orange urine, which is one in the symptom cluster that come together and which i call Babesia.

So i tried herbs and rifing, nothing worked. Then i took 40 drops of Cryptolepis and the red-orange urine stopped.

My usual dose is 10 drops, not very often, only for emergencies.

By the way, i bought a pound of Amargo (says it's for parasites). Concurrently i got a symptom that FELT like high blood pressure; i can't tell if it was from the Amargo or something else. I was concurrently treating possible gut parasites with rifing.

---Polly Polygonum
----or Nilufar Knotweed

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canefan17
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Does it need to be pulsed?

Can you take art with it?

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pamoisondelune
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I think Buhner says to take cryptolepis 3 times a day for 5 or 6 months if necessary, not pulsed. Check on the Buhner Q&A on planetthrive.com .
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FunkOdyssey
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Are you sure pam, every time I have seen Buhner mention cryptolepsis he says it should be used for 30 days only.
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canefan17
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He says 30 days only.

But I found an old post of his that says if you use lower doses... 3-6 months is ok


There isn't a lot of research done on crypto.

So it's all a guess

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sparkle7
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I used the cryptolepsis for about a month. I felt a slight increase in pain (herx?). I used medical dowsing to determine dose. When I switched to artemisia, I stopped the cryptolepsis. Like I said, I dowse the herbs - It was pretty clear from dowsing that I shouldn't take the cryptolepsis & the artemisia together. I'm not sure everyone should do this but this has been my experience.

For me, the artemisia has been better. I don't have typical babesia symptoms, though. For all I know, the artemisia may be effecting XMRV or something else...

I don't if there's alot of studies about cryptolepsis. It's an African herb. There's some info about it on the internet but not alot.

[ 06-10-2010, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: sparkle7 ]

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