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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » buhner says no to andrographis???

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Author Topic: buhner says no to andrographis???
randibear
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i read some site on the web and i can't remember, but it said that buhner no longer recommends andrographis for lyme. WTH????

i bought three bottles of all his protocol. i'm going back to one each at three times a day because when i added flagyl, i had a complete meltdown. sky high bp, nausea, jerking, twitching, etc., scared me to death so i stopped the flagyl. besides i was getting numb feet and it was going up my legs and i thought it could be the flagyl. so i stopped both for a couple of days, but want to go back on buhner.

if he doesn't recommend the andrographis does anybody know what his new protocol is?

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MariaA
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no, he's fine with andrographis. He just says that he's finding that it's not 'the most important herb' for some people. If it was helping you and not the cause of your symptoms, certainly take it.

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randibear
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i just checked planetthrive and he said elethrooccus something. and not andrographis to this one poster.

does this mean he's changed his protocol?

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MariaA
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not sure which exact link you're reading, but last time I read it, about 2 weeks ago, he was saying that it was fine, just not as important as he'd previously thought in the book.

Eleuthero is a good supportive herb for adrenal function and a LOT of immune system 'normalization'.

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gwb
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randibear,

I read the same thing Maria read. I'll try to find it but I believe he still recommends it.

I was researching all the herbal protocols back in November and December before I decided to go with Dr. Jernigan's protocol. So, yes, I believe Maria is right, but I'll see if I saved the link in my bookmark on it and get back to you.

Gary

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randibear
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i've read about jernigan and have been thinking of trying it. i'll stay with buhner for now since i bought so much but would you please let me know how you do on jernigan.

i can't travel so i'd have to do it solo.

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Keebler
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Links? Context? Situation? Symptoms? New Information? I like to consider all of that stuff with rumors like this. Until I see a direct quote from the person who supposedly said something, I consider everything a rumor.

It all depends on what question he is addressing. If someone has an adrenal question, elethrooccus would be the answer.

If someone can't tolerate it for some reason, then he may say - for them - not to use it.

He may have new details about specific use.

It would be very helpful to see the original source of the rumor - see if they have a citation (quote, source listed). Then, go right to Buhner's site and see what is there.

Randi, you said "some site on the web" - can you look back you your computer's memory and find that site? Anytime someone posts something like that, there should be a direct link to confirm. They may have listed that - or another way to go directly to the right place to read more.

It always takes me a few steps to find his site and I need to be awake for that. Later, I can look at Buhner's site later but I'm just waking up now in my time zone.

I do recall reading what Maria mentioned: " he's finding that it's not 'the most important herb' for some people." Well, that is pretty much the same with anything. For me, it has saved my life. Not everyone has the same experience, though.
-

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randibear
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it was on planet thrive, ask stephen buhner. i tried to copy it but can't and my computer doesn't have the link. or at least i can't find it.

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Keebler
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Well, thanks . . . that really will help, knowing what site and that it was his. I'll do a search on this later as I really want to get to the source of the comment. Nice to know where to go looking.
-

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MariaA
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Here's the link:
http://planetthrive.com/2009/12/lyme-protocol/

Basically, it sounds like he has an update somewhere (probably gaianstudies.com???) and there was a typo or some accidentally misspoken comment about problems with andrographis. I'm guessing that Randi ran across some other discussion of that update. I think the herb has a good history of helping a lot of people here, so if you're not allergic to it or something like that, it's probably a good one to try.

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MariaA
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Also, here:
http://planetthrive.com/category/experts/buhner/
there are about three warnings about possible adverse reactions with various herbs on the protocol = they're in the column on the right.

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
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gwb
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Yeah, I found it. Exactly as Maria say's. He still believes in using it but it's not the most important part of the protocol in his opinion.

Here's what he says to a question someone asked him on Planet Thrive.

Stephen's response:

"I would primarily suggest the use of knotweed and stephania for your symptoms as well as the use of vitamin B-12 and eleutherococcus tincture. I don't necessarily agree with the database here but understand their point with cat's claw.

Nevertheless, it is not so cut and dried. Again, I no longer feel that andrographis is the most important herb for treating lyme. Knotweed, cat's claw, and eleutherococcus are the most important in that order."

Source: http://planetthrive.com/2009/10/andrographis-and-ms/

Gary

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randibear
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ah, gary, you're a genius!!! yep that's it.

that's what got me curious cause i've always heard to take the andro.

so i'm still wondering tho, should somebody stop the andro and use that eleutherococcus instead?

i hope it's not genseng cause i tried it once and had massive headache.

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ukcarry
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Eleuthero is Siberian ginseng, Randibear.
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randibear
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umm, so i guess if since i bought just an over the counter ginseng i couldn't take this either, huh?

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Keebler
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What exactly does the label say? Ginseng is not at all the same as SIBERIAN Ginseng. Totally different. Sort of cousins, really.

Calling it ELEUTHERO (or some form of that word) saves confusion but I can never spell that word - guess I should learn.

While (according to M. Murray*) Ginseng is good for the HPA axis (hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal communication and working triangle, of sorts) and it's reputation of being too stimulating has been blown out of proportion, for lyme patients who are usually very sensitive, some species of Ginseng can be too stimulating.

If you look at the bottle it should say what type if is. American Ginseng can work okay if part of an overall formula but there are other Ginsengs (Chinese or Korean) that may be too powerful for you right now.

SIBERIAN Ginseng is what you want - and many LLMDs suggest it. Singleton refers to it in 3 pages of his book, "The Lyme Disease Solution.

Here's more from another author's book (which is not at all about lyme but all about herbs in general):

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/important-herbs/siberian-eleuthero-root-bark-eleutherococcus-senticosus.html

SIBERIAN ELEUTHERO ROOT BARK (Eleutherococcus senticosus)

Siberian eleuthero (formerly called Siberian ginseng)

Excerpt:

. . . We prefer it to ginseng root in sensitive individuals who may find the stronger herb too hot or overly stimulating to the nervous system. In spite of this, some people still find it too stimulating, in which case I use calming tonics such as Ashwagandha root.

. . . .

- From "The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook" (Tillotson, et.al.)

=======

* Another really good book is "The Healing Power of Herbs" by Michael T. Murray, ND. He has a full chapter on Siberian Ginseng and another full chapter: Chinese or Korean Ginseng.

He also has a chapter on Milk Thistle, Turmeric, Smilax, Hawthorn, Gotu Kola, Licorice, Garlic, Ginger . . . 33 chapters in all, each relates to support that I find exceptional.
-

[ 03-06-2010, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Maria and Gary -

Thanks so much for your detective work !! I'll have to read over it and then process. A slow brain morning here.
-

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Keebler
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Randi,

Eleutherococcus does not do the same thing that andrographis does. Eleutherococcus is for adrenal support that can also support immune function. It does not affect spirochetes but it is vital for the support it provides.

Buhner had a chapter on this in his book. The above sources are also very helpful (Tillotson, Murray). And Buhner's statement above about what he is now finding to the be the three most important ones, confirms Eleuthero's place at the table but it does not mean it can be substituted for another particular supplement. They work together:

" Knotweed, cat's claw, and eleutherococcus are the most important in that order." (See Gary's post).

Andrographis has been wonderful for me in many ways. Not everyone has the same response at all - and it's good to keep that in perspective as we learn more and more.

Also, remember that the answer was for that ONE person, who is taking 3 antibiotics. The things suggested for them might be very different than the answer for someone else who is not on 3 antibiotics or had other considerations.

Although, it was a good chance to see his current thinking about the most important ones, in general. It would also be good see what else he's written lately. There may be more details on another page somewhere.

I've also read from many different sources about andrographis. As it's working so well for me, I enjoy studying the other literature. Andrographis is absolutely marvelous and I enjoy reading all about from many different sources.

Still, as interesting it is on paper - or for some people - if it is not working for you, don't push it. Never push it. There are many other ways to get where you want to go.
-

[ 03-06-2010, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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MariaA
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Siberian ginseng/eleutherococcus is totally unrelated to other ginsengs- but it got that name as a marketing tool of sorts. It has somewhat similar action as one of the 'true' ginsengs but is very gentle at the same time. It's probably a really good herb to take when you're recovering from the body damage done by Lyme, and it normalizes some immune system function.

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
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Brussels
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Funny he doesn't think andro is as good anymore. Andro saved my life. It is the STRONGEST of all herbs he recommend, for me, at least. It worked for me when my bacterial load was high.

Example, when starting chronic lyme treatment with extreme symptoms. When symptoms were still strong and widespread in the body. After new infection (soon after tick bite).

It worked in all these cases for me, but then when my bacterial load fell, I dropped andro and went into the other herbs.

I loved all the 3 he thinks is his favorites (eleuthero, knotweed and cats claw). Knotweed though was a bit too strong to me, so I also used it on and off.

I think the difference is on the load of infection. Andro worked very well and I don't think I would have reached remission without it. But I didn't use it long term (no more than a year and in VERY low doses). Reaching his level 2 was already at my highest. Herxes were horrible with it.

I preferred then his combo instead with stephania. Much milder.

No way to get rid of lyme with only two herbs, you got to make a combo. Even astragalus, that he didn't recommend for chronic lyme, worked for me in gentler ways many many times. On and off.

Siberian ginseng was indeed good.

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randibear
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at what level did you get with buhner? i'm back down to three times a day one each.

when i went to two pills three times a day i had problems, so i'm starting over.

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annxyzz
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Some forms of andro made me feel depressed (quite ) , with the exception of nature's plus , which does not cause a dark mood. The concentrate I tried earlier had a BAD effect on my mood , personally . It also literally made me unable to taste my food, and caused me to have ZERO appetite.

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annxyzz

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seibertneurolyme
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Randi,

If you go back to planet thrive and read a few other entries I remember there are several questions where Buhner suggests starting with just one herb and then after a few weeks or a month adding in a 2nd herb. This is pretty much what I did with hubby. Buhner pretty much always suggests adding the andrographis last as many have the most problems with that herb I think.

I agree with Brussels -- the andrographis is probably the strongest of the main herbs. I increased that by only 1 capsule per month for many months. Hubby was already at full dose (for him that is 4 capsules 3 times per day) on all the others for probably 6 months before he got to full dose on andrographis.

Hubby has recently added the eleuthero tincture and that seems really helpful for him energywise.

Bea Seibert

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Rivendell
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Randibear, thanks for posting this. I haven't been on here in a while. Been applying for SSDI for CFS, which I think is most likely Lyme Disease. (And last spring I was infected by a tick, so if I didn't have Lyme before, I probably do now. Had the rash and was treated but it didn't help. Rash kept coming back, etc.)

Keebler,

I'm so glad to hear that you are doing better with Androgrphis. I want to try it, but it is somewhat expensive. Significant Other is unemployed, so money is really tight.

I'm doing sort of a cheap version of Buehner's. Drinking about 8 cups per day of Green Tea (known to kill the spirochetes that cause placque on your teeth and can also cause heart disease and Alzheimer's if your teeth are not cleaned regularaly), Cat's Claw that I buy in bulk and is not so expensive that way, and Olive Leave (bulk again, less expensive) which treats viruses, bacteria, parasites, etc.

When I do this regimen, the tingling and numbness on my head stops, also the feeling of tiny fish swimming under my skin stops, and I feel a little bit better.

But, want to try the Andographis and/or Neem which seems to be similar. I have Autonomic Dysfunction and am afraid of the Knotweed because it dialates blood vessels.

I stopped the grapefruit seed extract because of acid reflux.

Anyway, so glad to know that some of you are improving on the Buhner's protocol.

PEACE

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Keebler
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Andrographis is the least expensive of all. Under $9. a bottle at Vitacost.

Now, it is not an easy one to take, it will increase tiredness at first and increase urine as it decreases edema so being near a bathroom is a must. For me, it's decreased seizures where nothing else worked as well (other than allicin which is too expensive for me). Androg also decreased tinnitus (where allicin did the opposite for me). Androg. cured four years' worth of mouth ulcers and burning mouth.

But, I can never shake the fatigue. Recently, I've taken a month or two off everything. The fatigue is still bad so it may not have been just the andro but do be aware that it can increase tiredness and plan accordingly.

Other adrenal support may be good, then.

After some time, this also helps decrease pain but it's no overnight miracle.

I've used neem for a few months years ago and I found this better. I've lived on Olive Leaf Extract for long periods of time and was disappointed. Now, it was excellent in totally preventing candida for the few months when I was on abx. But don't stake all you have on that. Or rotate.

Neither neem nor OLE helped the mouth ulcers and burning. Didn't even touch it. Androg. did, completely. And that says a lot.

But we are all different. The link below is to the androg. that I use (the one Buhner's suggests). It is all I can now afford. While it is vital to have a good LLMD or LL ND, we all don't have that option.

For some, it has come down to one or two.

And, remember, others have not done well with this - some do, some don't. I would not be here today, though, were it not for this. Now, still, this may not be the right one for you. Be sure to read all of what Buhner's written about it if you try it and - always - slow and low - never push it. Ever.

Good luck.

http://www.vitacost.com/Planetary-Herbals-Full-Spectrum-Andrographis

-

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Rivendell
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Hi Keebler,

Thanks for responding. I know that $9.00 is cheap, but when you have to take a lot of pills per day of Andro, eventually 4 4x per day, it gets expensive. But, eventually, when economic troubles improve, I want to try it.

I'm am so glad it helps you. Boy, to heal this darn fatigue. We will find the answer. Never give up.

Best wishes.

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Keebler
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It took me MANY months to get up to the full dose.

Fatigue usually leaves when all infection has been adequately addressed over a proper amount of time - and when liver and adrenal function comes back to life.
-

[ 03-08-2010, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Silverwolf
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<<<<< Randibear and Lymer family here >>>>>,

Glad the andrographis info was brought up...I'd read something too and couldn't remember the details...

Thanks y'all for the info'...it is a huge help!!!!

Jus' Silverwolfi

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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FunkOdyssey
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I also think its strange that Buhner downgraded the importance of andrographis, as it was the only herb in his protocol that had documented spirochete-killing action. In my experience, it made me herx more obviously than any of the antibiotics I've tried.

NOW released their own version of it, same 10% andrographolide extract as the other brands, and its the cheapest source on the market now (note the 90 capsule bottle):
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Andrographis-Extract-400-mg-90-Veggie-Caps/21322?at=0

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Keebler
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The downplay could be for political and regulatory reasons. One web site by a MD was ordered by the FDA to close their website because they had research on there about garlic's effects on infections.

A note of caution about individual reactions. to andrographis.

While it's not walk in the park, for me, it has some very good effects on many levels, mostly as the best anti-seizure support I've found. This is all I can afford now and has really nearly saved my life.

I did go off it for a couple months recently and lost some ground in some respects especially as the ulcers all returned to my mouth. Back on it now, they are disappearing again.

However, there is another poster here whom I respect but she (or he?) has had increased seizures when using it. So, clearly, as with anything, different people can have different effects.

For my own use, my experience has been very positive. For others, not. Read all you can first, of course - but also it's not that I feel so great - it can increase nausea and fatigue - but it works for me like nothing else has. (Allicin is good for many but I can't take it due to an increase in tinnitus from it. Neem never did much for me, although it has a wonderful reputation.)
-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
canefan17
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What do you guys think about this combo...

Japanese Knotweed
Cats Claw
Andrographis
Sarsaparilla
Dandelion

www.greendragonbotanicals.com (from Vermont) has a combo blend of these herbs. They work WITH Buhner on this stuff.

They have a lot of people on it now.

Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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