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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » i'm mortified to ask but...

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Author Topic: i'm mortified to ask but...
kellephant
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has anyone experienced this on doxycycline:

ever since i started taking it my shoulders smell like pee! yes, i know... this sounds like a total joke, but unfortunately i am being dead serious [Frown]

at first my husband and i thought one of the dogs had an accident somewhere in the house and we were looking all over for it. then we left and to my horror we discovered that... *gasp*... IT'S ME!!! (my shoulders) [loco]

i keep taking showers and changing my clothes, but eventually the smell comes back. it is strongest when i wake up in the morning. and if i pinch my shoulder skin it's worse... almost like i'm squeezing the odor out!

has ANYONE experienced this? i am really not comfortable going out in public if this continues... i mean, if my husband can notice i'm sure other people can too!

and before you laugh at me, let me stress that this has NEVER happened to me until started the doxy... i am a clean person!

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Robin123
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Sorry - "your innate" response is funny - good thing you didn't write this on April 1 -

Don't know whether swabbing your shoulders with 50% rubbing alcohol might help alleviate it -

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kellephant
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LOL!!! nice sense of humor! i really do just have to laugh about it!

and that is a good idea, i will definitely try that! i just wonder why on earth it is happening...

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TF
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Hey, maybe it means you are good at detoxing.

If so, that is really, really good for you!

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kellephant
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that's kinda what my guess was! it is nice to hear it from someone else too [Smile]
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sixgoofykids
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Do you have a sauna? Maybe sweating more of it out might help since it's coming out your skin. When I've been toxic at times I've had bad smells .... and I'm clean, too .... never urine on my shoulders though, that's a new one, LOLOL!!!

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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kellephant
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i wish i had a sauna... i try to take at least one hot bath daily... i'm just so miserably hot right now that the thought of taking one makes me want to jump out a window [Razz] i'd rather take a nap in my refridgerator at the moment!

and hahah i know! i was teasing my husband today and he said "shut up pee shoulders!" ... it's a pretty funny symptom!

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B4LYME
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You may want to up your intake of water to help you detox more. I also read that parsley helps hide the smell of garlic maybe it would help here too?
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Carol in PA
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Your perspiration smells like urine?

I googled for: sweat smells like urine
and found lots of info.

Quote:
...if there is a predominance of androstenone, the sweat develops an obvious smell of urine.

Carol

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BoxerMom
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I love this thread! This is the best symptom I've heard about in quite a while. My favorite socially awkward symptom is when I have a huge biofilm dump from my eyes and go around all day with huge (and I mean HUGE) blobs of goo in the corners of my eyes. Kellephant, we really should hang out! [Smile]

Do your shoulders smell like ammonia? Sweat smells like ammonia when the body is breaking down protein for energy. I forget the exact mechanism, but I think the nitrogen in the amino acids is converted to urea by the kidneys. If the body has excess nitrogen, the kidneys get overloaded, and some will be excreted in the sweat as ammonia.

If you are eating a low-carb diet, your body may turn to fats and proteins to make energy. This can happen to athletes after they utilize all their glucose. The body finds other sources for energy.

I've also heard episodes of illness and stress can temporarily raise ammonia levels. Maybe Doxy is making your body dump nitrogen somehow. Do you have any other new, weird symptoms?

Anyway, I hope this clears up soon!

BoxerMom goo eyes

--------------------
 - Must...find...BRAIN!!!

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GiGi
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Be thankful that you are detoxing this way. Rubbing alcohol is about the worst thing you could do.
Rubbing alcohol is also a product your body is now getting rid of because it is petroleum based as many chemicals we are exposed to, and all add up and stink when combined with the rest of the toxins.

When people are unable to perspire, it is actually dangerous.

Be happy and thankful for it and wash it off. It beats damaging the liver and/or losing a kidney because of it. Kidneys do not repair. Underarms are handwashable.

Baking soda, mixed into clean water, is a natural deodorant.

Salt is a natural deodorant (not table salt!)
Through its disinfectiong and neutralizing effects it prevents forming of germs and bacteria that cause unpleasant body odor when the body is not alkaline. Germs and bacteria can germinate quickly in an overly acid environment. Maybe get a stone of Himalayan crystal salt moistened with water and use it as you would any (damaging) under-arm deodorant. You could also use a mild solution of the Himalayan salt used for cooking.

Take care.

Boxermom, I used a mild solution around eyes of the Himalayan salt for my eyes when I was still sick. Foot baths, facial masks/clay, bathtub, lots of uses.

Be glad it is coming out. My friend who is now legally blind had to have a glass eye. And yet she was chosen Ms. Senior ....... in one of our larger states!

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kadee
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At least ticks might avoid you... [Smile]
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Keebler
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-
BoxerMom's ammonia connection seems to be likely possibility as ammonia is the most distinguishing aromatic hit from urine.

I knew of someone with that problem and it was due to kidney distress. I don't want to alarm you as all lyme patients are overloaded and it may just be that you need more greens in your diet or more water.

Still, you might do well to have your doctor run a kidney function test - and also get checked for diabetes. As Carol mentioned, androstenone - you might inquire about how to go about testing that to see if you have proper hormone balance.

All the other support measures are good but some solid lab work can also help ease your mind and if anything is off kilter, offer you chance to correct it.

Since your kidneys may be under stress, be sure to avoid Ibuprofen as that can be hard on kidneys. Ibuprofen is in Advil - and some other OTC products.

Wearing cotton clothes will help your body breath better. I had this problem long ago, even after a shower. At that time I was working and all my business attire was of synthetic fabrics.

After I lost my job and went to wearing just cotton around the house, I did not sweat like a roasted pig wrapped in plastic wrap. Cotton helps a lot in that regard. It's hard to find all-cotton shirts. LLBean and Lands' End have the largest selection but even some of theirs contain 5% lycra and even that small amount nearly suffocates me - so be sure to read the fine print if cotton seems to be something that may help.

===================

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/16/us/kidney-peril-found-in-the-pain-reliever-ibuprofen.html

Kidney Peril Found in the Pain Reliever Ibuprofen

April 16, 1990 - The New York Times
-

[ 04-11-2010, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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-
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/93221

Need kidney support...what to take??
-

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Marnie
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"In addition, systemic treatment of mice with these inhibitors, including doxycycline, prevented endotoxin-induced lethality by preventing secretion of TNFa into serum"

http://www.woundsresearch.com/article/2148

TNF alpha looks to cause Bb to go into a dormant form and blocking TNFa secretion appears to trigger the spriochete form in the blood...where it is easier to be "hit".

I linked all of that today in a post about how the inflammatory cytokines HELP pathogens like HIV.

Now...Bb uses nicotinamidase to do this:

nicotinamide + H2O <-> nicotinate + NH3

NH3 is very toxic ammonia.

The body will rid NH3 thru the skin. That is what you are smelling...the ammonia smell.

Tetracyclines alter our immune response. They DO help. And they do also contain ketones, but the "right" ketone?

"The presence of adjacent ketone groups gives tetracyclines the ability to chelate divalent metals."

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mc5/doxycycline

Blocking/binding Ca is what this is all about.

But more important is blocking/closing Na channels, IMO.

If your CLOTHING underarms are "smelly" (and that smell is hard to get out), I have found applying orange Listerine to the armpits of undershirts/tops totally destroys the odor. Do this just prior to washing your clothes.

Here is a really good link explaining body odor:

http://www.health911.com/remedies/rem_bodyo.htm

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lauirel
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Marnie, Keebler, or GIGI,

quote:
The body will rid NH3 thru the skin. That is what you are smelling...the ammonia smell.

Tetracyclines alter our immune response. They DO help. And they do also contain ketones, but the "right" ketone?

"The presence of adjacent ketone groups gives tetracyclines the ability to chelate divalent metals."

Blocking/binding Ca is what this is all about.

But more important is blocking/closing Na channels, IMO.

Questions, as I also have this occuring myself.

Without regard to doxycycline or tetracycline, ...

1) How does one bind Ca with either supplements or herbs? Which ones?

2) How does one close the NA channels with supplements or herbs? Which ones?

3) How to you detox or bind the NH3 out of the skin or body? Supplements or herbs and which ones?

LaurieL

--------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, its the only thing that ever has.

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TF
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"The Allergy Self-Help Book" says that unusual body odor that persists no matter how often you wash can be a sign of an allergy. (p. 17)

This book was recommended to a friend of mine by an allergist. So, I take seriously the things that it says.

If the smell goes away when you stop doxy, it seems like it could be the doxy.

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Keebler
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-
lauirel,

I have no idea. As I still have a long way to go with my health, brain cells seem stuck back in Kindergarten and I'm more of a pass-it-along kind of gal vs. a thinker. Hopefully, someone with a clearer head than mine can answer your question.

TF,

Another thought about allergy. If not exactly to doxy, might it be that the doxy reacts with another food or med and without that, the odor would not occur?

As the doxy is necessary to help get past lyme, rather than try to ditch the doxy, it may be interesting to stop certain foods in the diet for a few days at a time and see if there may be improvement.

Maybe, too, change around shower soaps, and even shampoos. One line I like that has no petroleum products is Avalon Organics Lemon (even with MCS, this works for me as it is from essential oils, not synthetic scent). They also have a very nice body/hand lotion, again, free of petroleum and the lemon scent might negate the odor. VitaCost.com carries this.

Charcoal -and especially (as others mentioned) chlorophyll containing greens (and greens powders) - should also help.

Green Vibrance is my favorite. It also contain a little schizandra which is excellent for the liver. I have to wonder if more liver support would also help.

Warm (not hot) baths in Epson Salts, too, as your body might must need to sweat more. Just don't get too hot doing so. We can sweat without overheating (as that can cause setbacks).

And, you could just fight fire with fire and add garlic capsules. Then, no one would notice anything else. :-o

==============

http://www.vitacost.com/productResults.aspx?ss=1&Ntk=products&x=0&y=0&Ntt=Green%20Vibrance

Green Vibrance - Powder is best

==========================

No petroleum ingredients or artificial scents. Essential oil of actual lemon is used:

http://www.vitacost.com/productResults.aspx?ss=1&Ntk=products&x=5&y=6&Ntt=Avalon%20Organics%20Lemon

Avalon Organics Body Care - Lemon Line

http://www.vitacost.com/productResults.aspx?ss=1&Ntk=products&x=5&y=6&Ntt=Avalon%20Organics%20Peppermint

Avalon Organics Body Care - Peppermint Line
-

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lauirel
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Hmmm, okay, so we need to decrease TNFalpha, Il-1, and IL-6, correct? And then hit the blood.

So herbs that would decrease these, could include echinachea, and Green Tea, or EGGc?

Green Tea has antioxidants more potent than Vitamin C and can also be found on Burrascano's guidelines, correct?

Cat's Claw also decreases the Th1's, like TNFalpha? Also kills spirochettes?

Thinking is very hard for me, I could use some help.

LaurieL

--------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, its the only thing that ever has.

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kellephant
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boxermom, you are too funny! i really do wish we could hang out... i think we'd have a lot of fun together! haha.

i have been on a low-carb diet for 11 years and NEVER had this problem, ironically, i haven't been sticking to low-carb lately. i KNOW i should, i've just been really down and having a super hard time continuing to eat foods that i hate right now.

thank you everyone for the advice! i think i am going to have my kidney and liver tested... a doctor actually asked me to a few weeks ago [before this problem started] but i didn't want to spend the money... now i feel like i should go ahead and test to be safe. plus i've been having MAJOR problems swelling up like a balloon the past few months which can also be a symptom of kidney and liver problems.

and i have been trying to talk to my LLMD since thursday and nobody will return my call... it's so frustrating!

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LightAtTheEnd
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Kellephant,

I had to laugh at your post just because I am on doxy too, and this is one thing it never occurred to me to worry about.

Now I will have to sniff my shoulders every so often to make sure it's not happening to me. Just one more little Lyme-related compulsion, LOL. Maybe I can work it into the funny Lyme shrug I'm always doing due to the pain in my neck, and sniff my shoulders at the same time, haha.

I don't seem to be having that issue, though. So far doxy is just messing with my stomach and giving me fits about what to eat for breakfast that I can keep down.

Good luck to you in figuring it out. Isn't it awful, all the unimagined and undignified things Lyme puts us through? But we might as well find the humor in it. [Smile]

--------------------
Don't forget to laugh! And when you're going through hell, keep going!

Bitten 5/25/2009 in Perry County, Indiana. Diagnosed by LLMD 12/2/2009.

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steve1906
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Every time I think I've heard everything about lyme...I heard it all now, us lyme people are now smelling like PEE.

We keep this up the Doc's wont see us anymore!

Good luck, I hope u smell like a rose soon...

--------------------
Everything I say is just my opinion!

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kellephant
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sorry to scare you lightatheend, lol! if it's any comfort, nobody here seems to be experiencing it! i hope your stomach problem gets better... how long have you been on doxy? if you just started it will probably work itself out [Smile]

and haha steve... doctors haven't been much help to me anyway... they already think i'm crazy... i might as well give them a reason to! lol

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steve1906
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They think I'm crazy too, three years now. I agree, you're on the right track giving them a reason you/us are crazy!!!

--------------------
Everything I say is just my opinion!

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Marnie
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Bb triggers P13K which -> PKC and Akt (PKB) activated. It does so for *cell survival*. It likes where it is camped out in...the defense cells. It doesn't want those cells to die.

P13K = Phosphoinositide 3-kinases. You can see a picture of that pathway here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoinositide_3-kinase

Scroll down a bit and enlarge it. It is called signal transduction.

Do you see survival factors at the top left?

See it leads to P13K and Akt (=PKB)?

See how P13 -> PKC (activated)? Look for ERK too, it will be mentioned below.

Now the drug Tamoxifen is a man-made PKC inhibitor which destroys glucose loving breast cancer cells. But oftentimes the cells are resistant to killing because Akt is still "on". To counter that, they have found giving EPA with Tamoxifen works much better at destroying breast cancer cells. (I will link it below.)

In addition Tamoxifen CITRATE inhibits CL channels.

Frontline (for our dogs) inhibits CL channels in the ticks to prevent transmission of lyme.

PKC is calcium (C)activated P = protein K= kinase (these transfer phosphates)

Akt is also in the protein kinase (transfer phosphate) group. It is also called PKB.

(Personal note...I wish all these things and pathways didn't have so many names - synonyms!)

Omega 3s are broad spectrum protein kinase inhibitors.

"n-3 fatty acids have proven to be potent and efficacious broad-spectrum protein kinase inhibitors."

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/eparestamsen.html - please read that short link.


Likely the dosage needed will be very high. Find one high in EPA with some DHA and a tad of vitamin E(to protect the first 2 from being oxidized).

It is available by Rx, but can be bought OTC. My personal fav. is OmegaBrite. It is not cheap considering how much you will need.

And it is not going to work "overnight".

This disease takes TIME to heal.

I've been trying hard the past few days to explain how incredibly beneficial it is to get the Omega 3 fatty acids up.

EPA reduces the inflammatory cytokines.

When we have inflammation - TNFa and IL6 - our liver can't convert caprylic acid (in several foods) to a very very beneficial ketone called BHB.

That ketone can "rescue" the infected defense cells so they can complete their job.

BHB (ketone) -> acetyl CoA -> citric acid cycle/TCA cycle/Krebs cycle -> increased citrate (inactivates PFK - Bb is "PFK dependent")AND it increases ATP which can donate a phosphate to GDP -> GTP which closes the Na-Ca channel.

Bb will NOT LIKE THAT.

Look at it this way...Bb is fermenting glucose and this robs the powerhouses of the cells = mitochondria of essential nutrients it needs to make lots of ATP. The mitochondria can't function. I'm not going to go into Sirtuins, but SIRT3 is involved which is impacting the mitochondria and oxidative phosphorylation (making LOTS of ATP).

Bb's "toxin" is actually not a "toxin" but is Bb robbing us of the nutients to MAKE a protein called Gi. That toxin "inhibits" Gi because all of the (3)things needed to make Gi, Bb "steals".

The substrates for Gi are NAD, NADP and L-arginine.

That "toxin" (or the depletion of the nutrients)
-> adenylate cyclase = ATP-> ADP. Lots of cAMP, PPi (pyrophosphate) and stuck with GDP (not
->GTP).

The defense cell will present various receptors which I interpret as a call for help.

CB2 receptor = reduce the inflammmation will ya?
It is this receptor that our (damaged antibody to Bb's OspB) is supposed to lock onto = mAB CB2.

And IFNy will trigger another receptor...GPR 109A. It is a nicotinic acid receptor - a Gi receptor!

IFNy is high in early lyme, but not in chronic lyme. It is believed less IFNy is good = less infection. Logically it would be a good sign.

I think IFNy (interferon gamma) is present to "promote" the GPR109A receptor.

"This expression profile, coupled with the observation that

in murine macrophages,

GPR109A is upregulated by cytokines like IFN-γ,

may suggest a role for GPR109A in immunity and inflammation.

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/27160

The more IFNy...the more infected and the cells call out for help.

Why it drops maybe because Bb (chronic) is for the most part latent due to ongoing high levels of TNFa.

Activation of Gi-linked receptors leads to enhancement of K+ channel activity and, conversely, blunting of Ca2+ channel activity.

Bb ferments glucose -> pyruvate -> lactate.

There is a "threshold" for lactate. Lactate helps to regenerate glucose via a cycle called the Cori cycle. It uses the carbons in lactate to trigger gluconeogenesis.

Glycolysis -> gluconeogeneis -> glycolysis...

Go here and look at the picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle

See pyruvate at the top -> acetyl CoA and going into the citric acid cycle?

Well by Bb using pyruvate itself and breaking it down to lactate to make its OWN ATP, the cell powerhouses are missing vital nutrients to power that citric acid cycle and power the cell.

BHB can "rescue" the defense cell.

Hydroxybutyric acid is the endogenous
ligand for GPR 109A that mediates the lipid lowering effects of nicotinic acid in humans.

http://hss.ulb.uni-bonn.de/2010/1992/1992.pdf



The medicinal food for Alzheimers called Axona works that way. It contains caprylic acid.

BUT...one has to have a healthy liver to make the conversion of caprylic acid -> BHB and inflammation stops that process.

Our liver takes a "hit" almost from the get-go in lyme.

Gotta get inflammation down.

See also my post about inflammation in HIV, malaria, etc.

Inflammation is helping those diseases (and lyme) to PERSIST.

In addition:

A deficiency of Vitamin B3, B6, vitamin C, Zn and Mg may inhibit our ability to make EPA and DHA from ALA.

http://www.omega3sealoil.com/Chapter4_3c.html

Believe me...all of those are down...and others!

It is the EPA (not DHA) in fish oil that can reduce arachidonic acid synthesis.

http://www.benbest.com/health/dha.html

Arachidonic acid comes from an Omega 6. 2AC = 2-arachidonoylglycerol (which is a ligand on CB1 receptors = inflammation and CB2 receptors = no inflammation). These are cannabinoid receptors.

But I'm sure you "feel" pain...inflammation persists.

Inflammation is painful.

Eicosapentaenoic acid inhibits voltage-gated sodium channels and invasiveness in prostate cancer cells.

PMID: 19154441

Furthermore, DHA and EPA inhibited PMA-stimulated PKC enzyme activity.

EPA and DHA also significantly curtailed PMA- and ionomycin-stimulated T cell blastogenesis.

Together these results suggest that EPA and DHA modulate **ERK1/ERK2** activation upstream of MEK via PKC-dependent and -independent pathways and that these actions may be implicated in n-3 PUFA-induced immunosuppression.

http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/12/2015

"These results suggest that ***PPARy activation*** by EPA and DHA may be one of the underlying mechanisms for the beneficial effects of fish oil."

http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v67/n3/abs/4495120a.html

How important is PPARy?

Very.

Taken together, our results suggest that activation of PPARγ may represent a novel approach for the treatment of ***pancreatic cancer*** by increasing PTEN levels and

inhibiting PI3K activity.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14572533

Remember EPA and DHA -> increased PPARy which looks to inhibit P13K.


"Fish oil is no snake oil" (Discover Magazine March, 2010 pg. 14) Quoting:

(The Omega 3 fatty acids: "Slow the formation of plaques. Lower blood pressure. Improved insulin sensitivity (reduced risk of diabetes). May raise intelligence scores.

EPA converts to DHA which converts to resolvin D2 which prevents neutrophils from sticking to the walls of blood vessels and initiating an inflammation response.

In mice with sepsis, resolvin D2 reduced the widespread swelling that usually accompanies the condition WITHOUT IMPAIRING THE IMMUNE SYSTEM'S ABILITY TO FIGHT THE UNDERLYING INFECTION."

Resolvin E1, an endogenous lipid mediator derived from eicosapentaenoic acid, prevents dextran sulfate sodium-induced colitis.

http://www.biomedexperts.com/Profile.bme/64294/Takeshi_Azuma

EPA <-> DHA.
http://www.mind1st.co.uk/EPADHA.asp

22:6n-3 is...get this...DHA (dihydroartemisinin (DHA): which can be converted FROM EPA.

EPA and DHA are the fatty acids parents most often read about. The "eico" of eicosapentanoic acid means 20 in Greek, and, indeed, EPA is a fatty acid with a chain length of 20 carbon atoms and 5 double bonds.

DHA is formed when EPA lengthens by

losing hydrogen

and increasing its number of double bonds. Thus, DHA is a fatty acid with 22 carbon atoms and 6 double bonds.

http://www.bipolarchild.com/Newsletters/0501.html

We make ATP 3 ways: glycolysis, gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis.

Bb only can make "his" ATT the first 2 ways.

But ketogenesis is sort of a "last resort" and usually only happens when there is NO insulin.

Many of the inflammatory cytokines are trying to lower insulin release...

Insulin ACTIVATES PFK (which Bb is dependent on).

With Bb using glucose and our defense cells needing glucose and all the rest of our cells needing glucose, it is probable hypoglycemia occurs at some point (usually at night).

To the best of my ability.

[ 04-13-2010, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

Posts: 9402 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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