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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » 2 year old daugther bitten...doc won't give abx..what to do?

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Author Topic: 2 year old daugther bitten...doc won't give abx..what to do?
bcb1200
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Hi folks:

We found a tick on my wonderful 2 year old daughter 2 weeks ago. It was in the upper folds of her ear and was hidden. It was there for 2-3 days as I had seen her poking her ear a few before we found it. This is before we found out I have Lyme.

It seemed to be a female deer or male wood tick. Not sure.

We pulled it off as best we could. Her mother had to hold her down while she screamed and screamed. I believe the head stayed in as it was too embedded.

My wife called her pediatrician and talked to a nurse who said we should mark on the calendar when we found the tick and watch for rash and / or flu for 6 weeks. If that happens they will put her on abx. She said because it was in the cartiledge of the year, where there isn't a lot of blood, she should probably be fine.

Last week, after I was diagnosed, I called her Doctor back and demanded she be put on Abx. He refused saying it wasn't necessary an in his experience he sees lots of false positives. I told him I was originally false negative until I got the Igenex test and that I never had a rash. He didn't budge.

Suggestions on what to do. We like this doctor, but it has now been 2 weeks post bite and I do worry she has gotten it. She seems her normal self.

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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22dreams
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Bring her to another pediatrician.
"false positives"? Welcome to Massachusetts, folks...geez.

IMHO, I say dump this Md -- period. no matter how likeable he's been in the past. That sort of bull-headedness isn't in the best interest of ANY patient. and he's dealing with children here. To be THAT ignorant is such an endemic area where MOST ticks are carrying.....not a good sign.

The "wait and see" approach doesn't cut it w/tick-borne diseases. There's no guarantee that even if abx are administered that they'll prevent anything, but it's better to try rather than "wait & see". Someone on here must have a name of a pediatrician in MA who will prescribe, I would think(?).

As I think Dekrator said before: how would a Dr determine false positives when he would not have run a test for lyme if a patient was not complaining of symptoms or had a tick bite?
Oh the logic of some ppl.

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17hens
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Please, please, please get her to an LLMD! Don't wait!

--------------------
"My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26

bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10

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jkmom
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I am the mother of a 12 year old, now disabled by a Lyme headache that won't stop. Her doctor would not give her abx when I called about a bullseye rash, but after it was gone. The doctor said "no Lyme in TX" and she wouldn't treat without seeing the rash anyway. If only I had known then what I know now.

I would keep taking her to doctors until I found one that would give abx. You could try to find one through a Lyme support group or look into the integrative health doctors in your area. Call them and ask if they treat Lyme and how before you go. Try the doc in the box places in drug stores.

I have found 2 doctors in my area that will treat Lyme for at least the short term, just by chance. The nurse practioner at the grocery store clinic was also understanding about my daughter's need for LT abx.

Even after treating, keep Lyme in the back of your mind if she develops any learning disabilities, behaviour or mood problems, health problems, etc., in the future. In hindsight, my daughter did start showing symptoms in about 2 - 3 months after her rash. She didn't really fall apart for a few years, though.

On a positive note, my mother had the bullseye rash at the same time as my daughter and was given abx by a doctor at that time. I doubt she got the full ILADS dose, but she is fine, now.

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bcb1200
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What does the ILADS say about dosage 2 weeks post bite for a 2 year old (drug, dose, for how long?)

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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Lymetoo
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Can you call your LLMD? He/she would at least be able to tell you what is recommended.

Blessings on your baby! [group hug]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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bcb1200
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Thanks for the replies. I called my LLMD who said what my pediatrician said was not unreasonable (although not what she would do.) We should be vigilant about watching for a rash.

She also said we can try a homeopatic treatment called Plionot? So we will.

THanks.

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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JunkYardWily
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you kept the tick right?

--------------------
sick since 9-09
igg, 18,23,41 reactive
igm, 41 reactive

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Keebler
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-
If, as you suspect, there the tick mouth parts are still in embedded her outer ear, they need to be cut out by a knowledgeable doctor. Any mouth parts left can be very problematic.

I think your daughter needs some very specific treatment. I'm sorry your LLMD was not more helpful. Try another one. Try another pediatrician, maybe. That tick needs to be out, completely. No microscopic parts left in, so whomever does that needs to use magnification and a very sharp tool. A tiny medial vacuum would be of help, too.

In one of the eastern European countries, they cut out tissue around the bite to be sure all tick parts are out. They believe that any mouth pieces left in can cause problems until removed.

Of course, the tick may not have been infected but it's a huge risk to wait and see, as you know. Best of luck. I wish I knew just what to tell you.

In the meantime, you might keep a moistened cotton ball with Colloidal Silver on the bite site. Replace it as soon as it dries out. Secure with a gauze bandage and tape that would not hurt when pulled off.

There may be someone at your local lyme support group with some suggestions.

Good luck.
-

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bcb1200
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My LLMD recommended a homeopathic treatment we are going to try.

I heard the head would eventually eject itself (like a splinter does) It is a body reaction. Is this not true?

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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massman
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Neither of the docs you mentioned is really lyme literate. Anyone with history of a bite needs to get treated ASAP.

Rashes appear im less than 50% of cases.
Ask them why they feel a rash is necessary.
Ask them what a clinical diagnosis is because lyme is determined by a clinical dx - no testing.

Mass has tons + tons of lyme.
You should act immediately to protect your child by chucking these docs.

I do not know any LLMDs in MA, it may be best to go to CT. I may be able to hook you up with someone who probably knows docs in CT. PM me if interested.

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bcb1200
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massman..your mailbox is full. Tried to PM you.

My LLMD is actually very good. (Dr. H in MA) Her treatment and knowledge thus far is excellent. (granted, only in 5 days, but it is a start.)

INntersted in finding alternatives.

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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sutherngrl
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My LLMD recommends that anytime you find an "attached" tick that antibioitcs should be started ASAP!

This is the better safe than sorry method!

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Rumigirl
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Good Grief! Don't wait! Find new drs! Or insist that your LLMD treat her, if possible.
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stork
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This is just my personal opinion and not med advice.

But, if this were my call, I would probably have given her a portion of my abx. IMO negative effects of the ABX can be resolved, lyme on the other hand has way too much inertia.

Kind of a riskier shotgun approach, but the difference between early and chronic lyme is the difference between wrist pain and barely knowing your name. I wish my parents gave me abx when I was first bit.

--------------------
long road since 2010
abx got me over the hump
diet, detox, and herbs have got me to heal

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Hoosiers51
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As far as I know, 2 year olds can only take Amoxicillin, Ceftin, Omnicef, or Zithromax. Those last 3, just check on if curious, in case I made an error.

So if you have Doxy, I wouldn't give it to her because young children should not take it.

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t9im
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Zithro will be good for babs as well as lyme.

My daugher didn't have a rash either. We wish we were more educated then.

Becomes expensive but its a small price to pay.

--------------------
Tim

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lymeladyinNY
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My pediatrician in Maryland gave my two boys amoxicillin when I brought them in to her to have ticks removed. She said, "I don't play around with ticks. I always give prophylactic antibiotics."

Thank God. Both boys show no symptoms to this day.

--------------------
I want to be free

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LymeMom Kellye
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My daughter had an engorged tick removed from her head when she was 5. We don't know how long it was on before we found it. We live in a state with very few cases of reported Lyme and the pediatrician only told us to watch for infection in the area in which the tick was removed.

She never got a bullseye rash, unless it was on her scalp and we couldn't see it. 3 months post removal we took her to the pediatrician for a very sore/swollen foot. She was diagnosed with swollen foot.

Since that time she has been to the Dr every 3 months with strange pains and symptoms. Finally after 11 years the pediatrician told her she needed psychiatric help and to just go to school!

Fast forward 11 years. My daughter has lyme and 3 co-infections. She also has candida and 2 types of pneumonia, oh yeah, and EBV!

So now she is in aggressive treatment and her LLD says it will be years until she is well. She is bedbound, on oxygen and is missing out on the most important and exciting time of her life. She was diagnosed 11 years after the bite!

Had she taken abx as a precaution, she would be driving, dating and doing what normal 16 yo girls do. If it were my daughter who got bit at 2, I would do whatever I had to to make sure that she took the appropriate amount of abx. What's the worse thing that it can do? Give her stomach upset and kill Lyme?

Late stage chronic lyme is hell on earth as far as I am concerned!

Good luck, and please don't give up unitl she gets treatment. Take care and be well.....

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maureen2174
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is there any way you could take her to an urgent care immediately and get abx? just beg them for a week or so until you could figure something out?

is there anyone here who could suggest ordering abx. from a quality site online. Hoosiers was right- the abx. used for lyme in children is amoxy, ceftin, omnicef, and zith. my son has an allergy to amoxy, so we have him on ceftin. however, ceftin has stopped production so may be hard to get.

if she doesn't have problems with amoxy, maybe you can order it online and have it delivered immediately. in the meantime, can you do all you can to get some in her system? urgent care may give you a week?

i had this same situation last week. we took him to urgent care and the doctor tried to tell me the wait and see approach, and that tick was not a nymph (it was deer tick) so the nymphs are the ones that usually carry lyme, etc., etc... and i begged for abx. she gave me 6 days of zith, so i got one dosage in him (not sure if it was a high enough dosage though- i couldn't find anything online about it).

next day i called pediatrician's office and they told me the 6 week policy crap. i made an appointment for later that afternoon but did not tell them why (i said i needed to talk to doctor) and i explained everything. he gave me script for 3 weeks of omnicef. later i called and asked if he would switch it to ceftin and he did (probably doesn't matter that much though).

my llmd's office said the wait thing too, which completely shocked me! i spoke to them on friday and they said to clean the bite and wait for symptoms.... i thought that was crazy. i told them i would take him to pediatrician and they said i would not get abx. from them, but luckily i did.

i sent tick to igenex for testing for all they test, so now waiting to see results....

i completely feel your panic though.... just take her all over until you get a script... beg, cry, whatever.... i didn't get into too many details about lyme with pediatrician, but i said that i dealt with it for 2 years and had all sorts of neuro. symptoms, so he wrote that in chart that mother had bad neuro. reaction with lyme and that was reason for treating my son immediately.

you can't sound too crazy or they will just think that. i brought my husband with me too to discuss it as a backup. he also got lyme from a tick bite and i gave him my abx. for 3 months and he is completely fine now. llmd appointment was too far off and his gp wouldn't give him abx. for more than 10 days since his test was negative through labcorp so i gave him 3 months of biaxin and not one symptom afterwards (he definitely had lyme though- he had bullseye and start of symptoms when he got on abx.).

early treatment is key! please get her on abx.... if you have tick (although if it broke in her, you won't be able to do this) get tested by Igenex.

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massman
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Check your PMs
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Lymetoo
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I would go to an urgent care too. Just chiming in.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Keebler
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-
I had mentioned that if, as you said, the mouth parts were likely still in her ear that they need to be removed with surgical tools under magnification. This can be done right in any doctor's office.

You replied: " . . . I heard the head would eventually eject itself (like a splinter does) It is a body reaction. Is this not true? . . ." end quote.

In that eastern European country where they not only remove any tick parts left but a certain border of tissue around it, those doctors think it is necessary as, especially mouth parts left in, can cause reinfection and no - the are not necessarily pushed out by the body at all.

Take identity chips placed under the skin of cats and dogs (and can also be done for people). There are also a few kinds of subcutaneous medicine chips in use (most notably, Depro Provera, an implantable birth control). They lodge in the body until removed. Nothing pushes them out.

Infection stays with the mouth parts embedded and can be a constant source of concern and possible source for continual infection.

I don't have a link to that information. However, it was conveyed by my state's founder of the lyme education network who has done a great deal of research. I'm sure it could be found with a search but it could take a while. I do not pass this along lightly. It's not just some worrisome gossip.

If tick parts are are embedded, I would have them medically removed by someone who understands the importance of this (or at least the potential problem) . . . and under bright light and magnification. Definitely under magnification.
-

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jkmom
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I am with LymeMom Kelly on this. What is the risk of a few weeks of abx compared to the risk of long-term chronic Lyme?

I would do anything possible to get her treated with antibiotics now, just in case.

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mam
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llmd says , any tick attached for any amount of time should be treated for. What other disease would they 'wait and see" Start calling dr. offices in the area and ask if they treat for bites. when one says yes, ask for an appt. good luck
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Stacyb
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I would run to a doctor or beg, borrow and steal
if necessary to treat my kid. My whole family
has been infected and I wish we were all treated
sooner then later. My oldest with 18 months aggressive abx is fine now and off all meds
for over 8 months. The youngest is just starting
b/c there were not clear symptoms and I wish
we would have insisted on sooner treatments.

I would suggest amoxy for kids as a
first line defense. High doses took
almost all symptoms away for my older son
with in 3 months!

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snownsparkles
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My 3 1/2 year old son is currently seeing a great LLMD... PM me if you would like the info.

Katie

--------------------
I DO NOT GIVE MEDICAL ADVICE AS I AM NOT A DOCTOR.

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tick battler
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I wouldn't mess around at this point. It's just not worth it. The homeopathics may work but might not. ABX do work when you catch it in the first 30 days.

When my 3 year old was 10 months, she had three tiny larvae tick bites and I figured the chances of her getting lyme were so low b/c the ticks were just hatched. I was afraid to give her a month of abx. She had no rash.

Well, a year later, she has needed 18 months of abx now and is still taking herbs and hasn't gotten rid of her lyme, bart, babs, ehrlichia, etc....She is much better but I wish I had given her a month when she was a baby rather than two years or more of treatment now.

It's a real nightmare you want to avoid. My entire family is infected. Twin 6 year old boys as well. The symptoms can come slowly and subtly as they did with my family and can be explained away as other things. Just not worth having to wonder every day and then to have this nightmare consume your life.

There is a new young LLMD (Dr. M) in Glastonbury, CT who treats children and trained under some of the best LLMD's. I would guess he is not too expensive and is good...I met him when he was training under Dr. J (our LLMD). Might be worth a call to him.

I hope this helps.

tickbattler

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Brussels
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Tickbattler, in an ideal situation, a month of amoxy would have done the job. Yes. But ticks are not 'ideal'....

I did 5 weeks from DAY ONE after my daughter got bitten at the age of 1. The amoxy made her feel worse and it simply didn't work.

It is idylic to think that a simple 2 month course of amoxy would prevent any kid from getting sick if treated fast. The truth can lie though FAR from that.

I still though want to believe that 2 months of doxy would have done the job, IF kids could take doxy so long.

But AMOXY certainly is not a good one to stick to. Not for my daughter. I tried that twice with her, when she fell sick in the year after first infection. She fell sick ANYWAY AGAIN, despite early treatment.

I suspect that coinfections make the job much harder for kids, as they can take less abx than adults.

For me, alternatives work better because they are more widespectrum (at least for kids).

My own experience, of course! For an adult, I would say, take doxy first. But for kids, I wouldn't say take amoxy, but do alternatives.

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bcb1200
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Thanks to all fot he advice. We will look into other docs to get her on Abx. I would hate to have her robbed of a good childhood or adult life because of this.

In the meantime, we are starting the Pleo Not today (Homeopathic treatment.)

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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bcb1200
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Oh yeah...forgot to mention my daughter is allergic to Amoxicillin / Penicillin. So..suggestions?

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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Beachinit
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Ceftin oral suspension might be another
possibility.
Here is the info from Rxlist:

DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION
NOTE: CEFTIN TABLETS AND CEFTIN FOR ORAL SUSPENSION ARE NOT BIOEQUIVALENT AND ARE NOT SUBSTITUTABLE ON A MILLIGRAM-PER-MILLIGRAM BASIS (SEE CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY).

Table 7. CEFTIN Tablets
(May be administered without regard to meals.)


Population/Infection Dosage Duration (days)
Adolescents and Adults (13 years and older)
Pharyngitis/tonsillitis 250 mg b.i.d. 10
Acute bacterial maxillary sinusitis 250 mg b.i.d. 10
Acute bacterial exacerbations of chronic bronchitis 250 or 500 mg b.i.d. 10*
Secondary bacterial infections of acute bronchitis 250 or 500 mg b.i.d. 5-10
Uncomplicated skin and skin-structure infections 250 or 500 mg b.i.d. 10
Uncomplicated urinary tract infections 250 mg b.i.d. 7-10
Uncomplicated gonorrhea 1,000 mg once single dose
Early Lyme disease 500 mg b.i.d. 20 (days)
Pediatric Patients (who can swallow tablets whole)
Acute otitis media 250 mg b.i.d. 10
Acute bacterial maxillary sinusitis 250 mg b.i.d. 10
*The safety and effectiveness of CEFTIN administered for less than 10 days in patients with acute exacerbations of chronic bronchitis have not been established.

I think I would go with 20 days ceftin 1st
some doctors will try cephalosporin in amoxicillin allergic kids. If not ceftin,
zithro might be next best choice. Could follow
with Bactrim oral suspension for Bart and some
Babesia coverage. Hope your LLMD will be able to get preventive treatment started soon.

Beachinit.

--------------------
Ideas not advice.

Posts: 448 | From Downeast Maine | Registered: Jul 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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