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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » japanese knotweed: source and success?

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Author Topic: japanese knotweed: source and success?
stork
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Any have success with this herb?

Do you pick it, buy it from an herb store, or buy it online?

Thx

--------------------
long road since 2010
abx got me over the hump
diet, detox, and herbs have got me to heal

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sixgoofykids
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I buy Source Naturals brand online.

I didn't start taking it until finished with Lyme treatment. I use it to keep my immune system strong and to detoxify, so I can't say how well it helps with Lyme.

I took it briefly when I was sick along with the three other core Buhner herbs and I was declining at the time, most likely due to being off babesia meds.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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MichaelTampa
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I have been using Country Life "Resveratrol Plus". It is a little more concenrated with resveratrol than Buhner recommends, and includes some other resveratrol-containing ingredients, but it is a great one for me. It is available at health food stores and on the internet, places like vitacost and iherb.
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Brussels
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Best for me was full herb in decoction. You don't get the fillers. I got allergic to the Source Natural Resveratrol (fillers) but reacted less bad with whole herb. It was strong stuff though, so I took it in minor amounts.

Any Chinese shop shall have it. It grows as bad weed all over.

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sparkle7
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I didn't seem to have much of a reaction that I noticed to it. I've read alot about it & it seems like a great herb to take for many reasons. I take it on & off. There are studies that Resveratrol can increase the life span with mice...

There's one I get that also is combined with tumeric (KAL brand, I believe). It's a pretty good deal for about $10 a bottle. I have read it is a weed & grows everywhere - so, it shouldn't be expensive.

Sometimes, it's good to take the whole herb. Whole herbs often have many components that can me missing from standardized capsules. It's also good to make sure you are getting good quality herbs.

There can be a big variation from brand to brand. They can get old, be sprayed with pesticides, or be grown in inferior locations. Hard to tell if they are all chopped up in a capsule.

PS - I also took Jarrow brand & it seemed pretty descent. I took the one that was all Knotweed - not the mixed one. I think they have a couple of different formulas.

I bought it from the local vitamin store to save on shipping.

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sammy
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I'm using the "Paradise Herbs" brand Resveratrol (Japanese Knotweed). It was one of the brands that Buhner recommended on the Planet Thrive website.

I've only been taking 1 capsule TID for one month. Haven't noticed any improvements since adding it to my protocol. I guess I just hope it's helping.

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canefan17
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brussels,

where did you order yours from?

www.greendragonbotanicals.com is what buhner recommended to me.

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FunkOdyssey
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I'm using biotivia because the source naturals japanese knotweed has too much Emodin at higher doses (4x4 daily), which causes gut cramping, pain, irritation, and diarrhea. I think its actually the most problematic buhner herb for the GI tract, not cat's claw.

http://www.iherb.com/Biotivia-Bioforte-Resveratrol-Bio-Enhanced-250-mg-60-Caps/17770?at=0

Bioforte has <4% emodin which is much more tolerable to the GI tract. Taking just one 4x daily because it has a **** ton of resveratrol and you don't want to overdo it. Here's what Buhner had to say about it:

quote:
Dear Stephen,
What do you think of Biotivia's 500mg full spectrum resveratrol which has 500mg of Polygonum cuspidatum? I understand it has all the representative herbs from the knotweed. Thanks.


Stephen's response:
Excellent is my opinion.


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canefan17
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Funk,

So that product should be used less than 4X4?

1 4x times/day is enough?


because that's an expensive product

Would only last 15 days @ 1cap 4x's/day

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FunkOdyssey
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He never commented on how dose should be adjusted for the biotivia product, but the dose of resveratrol is about 6 times higher than the source naturals product he recommends, which itself is about 6x higher than raw japanese knotweed herb. Japanese knotweed contains only like 1 or 1.5% resveratrol in its unaltered state.

I would not be comfortable ingesting 1 gram of resveratrol 4x daily which is what would happen if you took 4x4 bioforte. Not only would it be expensive but that would be an insanely large amount of resveratrol and may be dangerous. So I'm taking one 4x daily, as I know a gram of resveratrol in total is relatively safe. Many people have been taking doses of resveratrol that large for a few years now.

That is one of the things that bothers me about his recommendation to take 4x4 of either source naturals resveratrol or powdered herb, because they do contain radically different amounts of the active components. I do not believe they are remotely equivalent in their activity vs. the disease.

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sparkle7
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Does anyone know if more is actually better? Many things I have been taking are actually a lower dose that what is usually recommended. I do dosing by using medical dowsing. I feel like I'm making progress.

I was just wondering if there is some benefit to using high doses of resveratrol? It's really a useful herbal component but it seems to be more of a support herb that something we need to overcome the enemy (so to speak).

In my case, I find less seems to be working just fine with many herbs & supplements.

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Brussels
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Canefan, I ordered mine in Europe, in Germany, in a Chinese online pharamacy. But then I discovered that Japanese knotweed grows all over in Belgium and is a very unwanted plant. So I guess, I would just plant it home and do my own, if I need that again.

But in Chinese pharmacies, it is very cheap.

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kadee
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Hey Brussels,

knotweed grows all over the place behind my garden.
What part of the plant would you use?
Only the rhizoma, which come out in spring?
And how would you apply it?

I was thinking about making a decoction.
So far, Resveratrol was hard on my stomach also in small amounts. So I guess, the plant may have the same effect too.

[ 06-08-2010, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: kadee ]

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FunkOdyssey
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The concentration of emodin in the raw plant is not nearly as high as in the source naturals resveratrol product (which is actually something like a 6:1 extract if you didn't know). So if it bothers your stomach I would recommend you either use raw powdered herb or a full spectrum extract that limits Emodin content to be very low (like biotivia bioforte).
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lymie_in_md
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I think funk brings out an excellent point for emodin which has a toxicity level. You shouldn't buy just anything over the counter. It can accumulate in your kidneys causing lesions. See the detailed study below.

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/index.cfm?objectid=070AF4A8-AF43-7377-A473662E6EA1FB05

--------------------
Bob

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minerva
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i really believe that brunner knows what he is doing and has done a lot of research before recomneding what herbs and what dosage.

its not that easy finding the source naturals since they pulled it and re-issued it. the others are blends or the resveratrol is from grape and does not do the same thing.

i get mine from vitamin life.com its source naturals res classic 021078023432

ive been on it for 4 plus months. i can't speak to just this herb since i am doing all of the herbs. i have noticed that my brain fog is better. i am feel this is helping more then i can say for sure it is.

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sparkle7
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I'm a little skeptical of the emodin situation with this herb. People have been taking it for centuries. Maybe it's best not to take such a large dose that this would be an issue.

Many herb supplements are made with extract as opposed to the whole herb. It may be good to take the whole herb but the extracts of the herb are widely used, most likely, due to the fact that they are easier to use in manufacturing. Most herb can be more convenient to take in pill form.

I have also read that there may be an estrogenic effect of this herb. This may be something to be concerned with. Many herbs are estrogenic but I wouldn't discount their beneficial effects. You just have to take a balanced approach to their usage.

I don't have the Buhner book here at the moment. I'm not sure what his suggested dosage is. I don't know why people would need to take huge doses of this. If there's a benefit - please post it.

I would like to learn. In my studies, there's a big benefit of taking the whole her in many cases. It's just not always convenient - so we get pills or pre-made extracts. I don't know if it's important to obsess over each component of every herb we take.

Studies do not always consider the synergistic effects of all the components in any given plant. A plant may have 100s of different chemical constituents - some of which may work together.

We don't know what exactly happens when we only take the extract or chemically extracted derivatives. I could probably get a PhD just studying one herb...

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Keebler
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-
http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tilltoson, et.al)

The left hand menu here details principles, practices, the nature and the language of herbs. In here is explained why some herbs can be use only as tincture - or only as whole - or only as extract.

Some can be used all ways, some only one. Some can only use the aerial parts (leaves, shoots, stems) while others maybe can use only the root (rhizome) . . . or the bark.

Different parts of the same plant can have very different effects. Different varieties of a plant, too, can vary widely.

Some, like Pinella, must be processed precisely to remove toxins.

Scullcap is worthless other than in tincture form.

Understanding the considerations of combination formulas can take years of study.

Beyond all the considerations in the source and preparation, the same herb may not work the same in two persons with what would appear to be the same illness. Reading of the "pulses" (we have many) gives a lot of detailed information to the doctor or acupuncturist.

This is all very complex. That is why naturopathic doctors (N.D.) have four years of medical college plus internships, etc, focused just on this area of study and how it affects humans.

Acupuncturists, too, receive several years' training. There are other sorts of degrees with similar focus. The author of the book above is a Ph.D. and D.Ay. (doctor of Ayurvedic medicine).

In China, the equivalent is usually DOM (doctor of Oriental medicine). As well, there are different degrees for herbalists with master herbalist one requiring advanced study.

Added to all that, Chinese herbs are different from Western herbs. Amazon forest herbs are different from Ayurvedic (Eastern) herbs.

The similarities and differences have a certain familiarity but a doctor from one area may not know everything about the others. They can't just look it up in a book and decide to use this or that - it requires hours and hours of study along with practical experience or interviews with others who can share experiences.
-

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sparkle7
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FYI - I just happened to read this in the study posted by Bob -

Under the conditions of these 2-year feed studies, there was no evidence of carcinogenic activity of emodin in male F344/N rats exposed to 280, 830, or 2,500 ppm.

There was equivocal evidence of carcinogenic activity of emodin in female F344/N rats based on a marginal increase in the incidence of Zymbal's gland carcinoma.

There was equivocal evidence of carcinogenic activity of emodin in male B6C3F1 mice based on a low incidence of uncommon renal tubule neoplasms. There was no evidence of carcinogenic activity of emodin in female B6C3F1 mice exposed to 312, 625, or 1,250 ppm.

----

It didn't seem to say that emodin was all that toxic... for what it's worth. I'm not really sure what the fuss is about.

If one person takes an herb & has a bad effect, they shouldn't take it. It might not be the correct herb to take at the time.

In my case, I haven't had a huge result from the knotweed. There are alot of studies about how beneficial resveratrol is (especially for anti-aging) - so, I'll probably continue with it.

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canefan17
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sparkle,

I think supporting your adrenal glands has a MUCH bigger anti-aging effect than resveratrol (or any herb) does.

When you say you did'nt have huge results with knotweed...

What dosage did you work up to?
And for how long?

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sparkle7
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I started with KAL Tumeric & Resveratrol - knotweed root extract 50mg total resveratrol.

Then I took Jarrow which had 100mg total resveratrols.

I took about 1 a day or every other day. I use a dowsing rod to determine dosage - so, it varies from day to day. I guess I've been taking them for about 2-3 months.

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Carol in PA
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I had stunning results with Source Naturals Resveratrol, when I tried it a couple years ago.

I worked up to four tablets by the fourth day, and something "clicked" in my brain.
I could THINK again!

I had forgotten that I could think like that.
I had a stack of paperwork that had been sitting for six months, and I took care of it all in an hour.

I could comprehend better.
I understood the more complicated things I was reading online.

But...I had a problem.
I began having kidney aching and pain.
I stopped everything, and a couple days later felt much better.

Then I tried ONE Resveratrol, and it returned.
Crap.

I've been afraid to try it again.
Carol

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canefan17
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carol,

What led you to believe it was kidney pain?

What's the most telling sign your kidneys are overworked?

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sparkle7
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FYI from Planet Thrive -

Dear Stephen,

Does it matter whether we take Japanese knotweed (resveratrol) as the whole herb in capsule form or as a decoction? You recommend the standardized Source Naturals resveratrol but I am confused as to which is the preferred form. Most Chinese herbs are used as decoctions.

----

Stephen's response:

I prefer the whole wildcrafted herb in capsule form but as that is not available on the market my second choice is the Source Naturals capsules. My real preference would be that people with Lyme wildcraft their own, but this is more than most people can take on. As time goes on I feel more and more strongly that this is the main herb for Lyme and that it is best in whole form, not a decoction.

Yes, many Chinese herbs are indeed used as decoctions. However, I really do feel that the whole herbs are best. Our bodies can then take from them what they need and I like giving them that choice. They have a great intelligence that I have learned to trust over a long time.

---

CORE PROTOCOL

1. Japanese Knotweed (Source Naturals Resveratrol with 500mg Polygonum cuspidatum per tablet) - 1-4 tablets 3-4x daily for 8-12 months (Resveratrol)

2. Cat's claw - 1-4 tablets 3-4x daily for 2-3 months, then 2-3 capsules 3x daily (Uncaria tomentosa)

3. Eleutherococcus - 1/2 to 1 tsp upon rising and at lunch

4. Astragalus - 1,000mg daily (not to be used in chronic lyme)

-

HERB SOURCES RECOMMENDED BY STEPHEN BUHNER

Andrographis
400 mg tablets: Nature's Way
400 mg tablets: Paradise Herbs
400 mg tablets: Planetary Formulas Full Spectrum

Japanese Knotweed (Resveratrol)
100 mg tablets: Paradise Herbs
bulk, wildcrafted: Woodland Essence
bulk and Source Naturals 500 mg tablets: 1st Chinese Herbs

Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa)
500 mg capsules: Raintree
bulk, sustainably harvested: Raintree

Cryptolepis
tincture: Bear Creek Herbs (505) 388-5035
tincture: Woodland Essence

Eleuthero (Siberian Ginseng)
tincture: Herb Pharm

Stephania Root
Caution: New research has shown stephania
unsafe for use in pregnancy.
1st Chinese Herbs
Woodland Essence

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canefan17
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What is "decoction" mean?

: )


Buhner recommends www.greendragonbotanicals.com as a whole-herb source for knotweed

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sparkle7
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Soaking it in water... Like tea.
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kadee
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For a decoction I had to boil my chinese herbs for at least 20 minutes up to one hour.

How to decoct Chinese Medicine

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canefan17
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kadee,

So if I have some chinese detox tea bags...

They say to steep in boiled/hot water for 15-20 minutes...

Could/Should I steep em longer?

Do you boil the water with the herbs in it?


Thanks

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kadee
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It depends.
I just added a link about the chinese medicine decoct.
It says to boil the hard parts longer than the flowers or leaves for example.

quote:
After heavy and hard herbs have been boiled for 10 to 20 minutes, add the aromatic herbs and then the very light herbs, such as leaves and flowers, which should be decocted for only about five minutes or so in order to prevent evaporation of some constituents like essential oils.

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lightparfait
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Quintessence: the 5 in one herbal tincture from Biopureusa.com is recommended by Dr K. as it makes it easy to treat the lyme and co-infections with ony taking one product. He uses it in his lyme cocktail...autistic kids with lyme hav had sucess with this...easy to give to children. Perfect for adults.

contains androgrpahics, smilax, stephania root, japanese knotweed, and red root.

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psr1
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How do you find Quintessence in the US?
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kadee
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psr1 : Quintessence Tincture

Here's an interesting youtube clip that answers my question about how to use the knotweed plant:

Foraging for Wild Medicinals - Lyme Disease and Japanese Knotweed

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sparkle7
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In general, with herbs - the roots or bark are simmered & the leaves or flowers are steeped.

There are some varying opinions about the herbs & which form is best. Some like the whole herb & others like the tinctures or extracts.

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psr1
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Thanks Kadee
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FunkOdyssey
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quote:
Originally posted by canefan17:
brussels,

where did you order yours from?

www.greendragonbotanicals.com is what buhner recommended to me.

Do those green dragon guys sell japanese knotweed in capsules? Or do they only provide it in that combination formula?

I'd be interested if its encapsulated, by itself, and cheap enough.

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sparkle7
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You can get a pound of the powder for $18 & make the caps yourself from -

http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/lyme_disease.html

A pound would probably last a while...

I haven't done this because I don't know if I need it but it seems like a good deal.

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canefan17
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funk,

they sell japanese knotweed in capsules too

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FunkOdyssey
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkle7:
You can get a pound of the powder for $18 & make the caps yourself from -

http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/lyme_disease.html

A pound would probably last a while...

I haven't done this because I don't know if I need it but it seems like a good deal.

With 4x4 dosing we are talking about 480 capsules a month. I don't know about you but I don't have the time it would take to make 480 capsules every month. Definitely willing to pay a small premium (emphasis on small, not 400% markup like Raintree's cats claw) for an encapsulated product vs. bulk powder.
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sparkle7
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They have capsule makers that do 50 at a time...

http://www.ktbotanicals.com/capsule-makers-capsules-c-86.html

There's a couple of different kinds & you can look around to compare prices.

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17hens
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I found this on planet thrive -
-------------------------------------
Dear Stephen,

Hi, I have Lyme Disease and am eager to start the herbal protocol.

I did take antibiotics for six months but I know I have not eradicated all of the lyme with such a short course.

I would like to try the herbal protocol but I am very worried about taking Resveratrol.

I can not take even one sip of red wine or eat red grapes without suffering with a severe migraine.

Will the Resveratrol do the same thing?

Stephen's response:

The resveratrol I recommend is ONLY recommended because it is in fact primarily Japanese knotweed root NOT resveratrol.

Source Naturals resveratrol is Japanese knotweed root standardized to contain a certain percentage of resveratrol.

Red wine resveratrol is useless in lyme (comparitively speaking).

The substances in red wine that cause migraines are not, to my knowledge, in knotweed at all.

------------------------------------
But I'm confused.

When I look at Source Naturals and Paradise Herbs, I see resveratrol from grapes.

I searched for knotweed on both those sites and nothing came up.

So why does he recommend those two brands if it's not the Resveratrol he's talking about.

I'm sure I'm being dumb here, so please lead the blind kindly!

--------------------
"My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26

bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10

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FunkOdyssey
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Source naturals and paradise herbs use polygonum cuspidatum, which is the latin name for japanese knotweed. I think you were probably just confused by the different names. Its also called Tiger Cane, Mexican something or other, it has many names.
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kadee
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Source Naturals Resveratrol has only Polygonum cuspidatum (standardized to 8% total resveratrols), Dibasic calcium phosphate, stearic acid, modified cellulose gum, colloidal silicon dioxide and magnesium stearate.

Source-Naturals-Resveratrol

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17hens
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Source Naturals says, "Resveratrol is a protective compound produced by grapevines and other plants in response to environmental stresses."

So you guys are saying that the amount of resveratrol produced by grapes is very small and most of the resveratrol comes from "other plants".

Is that correct?

But then the person asking Buhner the question (above) about headaches might still get a headache from the small amount from grapes.

I'm not sure I understand why he responded the way he did to her.

And I want to make sure I get the right thing as well.

Thanks!

--------------------
"My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26

bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10

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FunkOdyssey
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17hens- resveratrol is a protective compound produced by grapevines and other plants. That is a true statement.

The resveratrol in the source naturals product comes from japanese knotweed (latin name: polygonum cuspidatum). Read the label of the product. It contains no grapes.

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sparkle7
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Interesting article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol

I'm not really sure why Japanese knotweed is recommended over grape sourced resveratrol by Buhner.

I didn't find a big effect from it. I had a bigger result from artemisia - which Buhner does not recommend. I guess you just have to try it to see if it's helpful.

Read the wikipedia article. It's quite interesting.

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17hens
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F.O., I get it. They're explaining what resveratrol is, not what their product is made of. I'm slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, sorry.

--------------------
"My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26

bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10

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Brussels
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Many people got bad reactions with Source Naturals as far as I can remember. I got too, not to the plant, I believe, but to fillers.

I prefer natural herb. No doubt. It is a very strong herb, I can swear.

I don't need to have an extract of knotweed to get benefits, no way. I needed something as mild as I could get, and that I got through decoctions. I was using something like a one finger or two finger length of root in decoction and I used that decoction for more than one day. That was minimal. And it could still knock me down.

I prefer decoction to powder because decoction is milder (I was too sensitve to Jap knotweed, but still felt it helped immensely).

Decoction is NOT soaking. Decoction is mainly boiling, for a long time (let's say about 10-30 minutes or more). You got to close with lid not to loose too many good chemicals and boil it low fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoction

Raintree has a good explanation of all methods used with medicinal plants.

I think the good part is the root. I got to read the book again to confirm though. I had mine from a Chinese pharmacy, so I didn't need to get it from neighbors.

I would start very slow with this plant. If you are sensitive to things, start with whole herb.

If you're the type that don't react easily, then I guess, extract would be better?

In general, reactions are milder if you take whole herb than extracts. Plus, if you react to the extract like I did, you will not know if it is the herb or filler creating problem.

It is a very good plant. One of my favorites (even though I used it in very minimal amounts, really minimal!), together with stephania and cats claw.

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sparkle7
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Thanks Brussels. Interesting stuff... I agree that we don't always need to take huge doses of things. I guess it's kind of an American concept... Everything is "supersize".

Pills or capsules can be convenient. Some people don't have access to making boiled herbs while traveling or going to work every day.

There are benefits to taking the whole herb. There are synergistic effects with the various chemical components in the herb that we may miss by taking the extracts.

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