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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Buhner Herbs! (must read)

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Author Topic: Buhner Herbs! (must read)
canefan17
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Just got off the phone with this website...
http://www.greendragonbotanicals.com/

Buhner works directly with them and recommends them (even more-so than source-naturals)

Only reason Buhner recommends source naturals is because when he wrote his book they were the only company using the whole plant (japanese knotweed)

Now for the exciting news...

They have a Buhner Core Protocol Product (360 capsules for $50) that combines japanese knotweed, Andrographis, cats claw, sarsaparilla(detox/lymph), and dandelion.

The guy on the phone takes it and was telling me a lot of people use it in conjunction with abx's.


Just giving you Buhner-Users a headsup. This sounds much easier to manage/take/find and is much cheaper.

[ 06-07-2010, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: canefan17 ]

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TnFlowerChild
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Thanks canefan17! I'm starting on Buhner's and this is good info. Are you doing Buhner? How long?
You can pm if you want - if you have experience, I have questions!! Thanks...

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Keebler
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Thanks so much. I was just about to order from various sites but get so overwhelmed. I could not get through but the phone message said orders could be placed at their web site. I can't get it to go further than a cover page. Is there trick to that?

Ohhh . . . I miss so much and only on the forth try, saw the notice:

"we will be online shortly." -- Well, that explains it.
-

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canefan17
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Keebler,

he told me I could call anytime (that 1-877 number) and he could do it over the phone.

Or email.

He expects the site to be up and fully running in a week or so.

He was a really nice, informative kid.

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Keebler
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Just got through. Ordered by phone.

So happy as I've never been able to sort out all the different places, for each one.

Thanks so very much for sharing this information.
-

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canefan17
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No problem : )

Did you order the 360 bottle one?
Did he explain to you how to take it? (I know how... just making sure you got all of it)

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canefan17
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Buhner recommends this Vit C

http://www.nutri.com/index.cfm/product/54/c-salts-26-oz.cfm

And here's his explanation

Stephen's response:
There are a lot of forms of vitamin C on the market and I have tried a lot of them. I like the powdered, effervescent form (C-salts) sold by Wholesale Nutrition.

This is because it is absorbed by the body rapidly and also because it contains many essential electrolytes: potassium, calcium, and magnesium, as well as zinc. These do a great deal to help with muscle spasms and other problems in Lyme and to help keep cellular activity healthy and strong. (This form is also one of the best treatments for constipation as vitamin C in large doses causes soft stool as the excess C is excreted through the bowels.)

All the different forms of ``vitamin C'' contain C but the trick is getting vitamin C in high enough doses at a decent price. Linus Pauling, who pioneered the use of C for many things, used a powdered form and I haven't really been able to find any way to get that kind of high dosing without it. In any event, I do think this form is better and it is also relatively inexpensive. You can also buy C in bulk powder (not effervescent) from places like Starwest Botanicals and encapsulate it yourself.

Regarding glutathione and it's precursors, I go into the difference in these in some of my books, such as Vital Man (see below for book link), but generally I have come to prefer alpha lipoic acid, though NAC does work fine as well. I have just found ALA to be a bit more effective overall and it is pretty reliable as well.

It will help with fatigue (as will eleuthero tincture, probably the best thing overall) in part, because it seems to help mitochondrial function. For knee pain I prefer glucosamine sulfate, teasel, cat's claw, devil's claw, and so on, most of which I discuss in Healing Lyme.

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Keebler
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Thanks. Yes. I've been taking andrographis full amount for over a year and just the others here and there.

He did answer all my questions and explained fully all about starting slowly - as I'd do with any new formula. I have the book but just never managed everything at once due to attention span. Glad to see this.

You're right. A very nice fellow. Many phone calls send me to the floor. This on had no bells. No whistles. Easy on the ears.
-

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canefan17
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Keebler,

Did you ever follow Buhner's collagen protocol?

I take most of the vit/herbs he recommends... except silica, glucosamine, and pregnenolone

Do you have an opinion on the above ^^

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Keebler
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No money for that. I have to stick to the most basic. I just have to get nutrients with food.

I'm not sure about glucosamine. In the Biochemistry article it says to avoid one type of that. Types vary but it's just something to learn more about.

I used to take pregnenolone and it helped tremendously.

===========

www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm

BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST

Excerpt:

. . . A popular treatment for arthritis includes the administration of chondroitin sulfate and N-acetylglucosamine.

If the arthritis is Lyme-induced, N-acetylglucosamine is contraindicated. 22 (See Chart 14.)
-

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minerva
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thanks for the info

curious what the mg dosage would be. you have to take a lot of the herbs...at the right dosage.

i am taking 4 pills three times a day of each herb. That makes 48 pills a day to get the amount Dr. B recommends. i couldn't take 4 pills 4 times a day just too much.

ive been thinking how nice it would be to have it in a tincture but again it would be still a lot of doses and would i be getting the amount i need.

i ve been on it for four months and the hardest part is getting that many pills down my throat.

keebler how are you doing on the pill taking?

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canefan17
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Turmeric has really helped with my joint and muscle pain (especially in knee and elbows)

But I wonder if I'm rebuilding correctly *shrugs shoulders*

I might just try to Jarrowsil first (silicon)

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Keebler
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minerva,

Andrographis is the the only thing I take right now. I am up to 16 a day but I chew some of those.

When I had money for things like magnesium, that was the hardest as it got stuck in my throat and after the first 2, I just could not get my throat to swallow the other 2. (Yes, there are powdered magnesiums, though).

I had to really work on swallowing exercises but also, just sit down for a while and take my time. No more popping pills over the sink. It required far too much attention.

With the combination formula, there will be far less in number for most.

To take that much tincture would require a lot of alcohol - and while some things work only as tincture, the whole herb has some things that can't be captured in tinctures of some herbs.

Often (but not always) capsules can be opened up, mixed in water or tablets can be chewed. Never with garlic, though, as that can burn. Oregano oil capsules also need to be swallowed, never broken in the mouth.

Never with pharmaceuticals, either.
-

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FunkOdyssey
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quote:
With the combination formula, there will be far less in number for most.
I see no reason that a combination formula of the herbs would reduce the overall number of capsules you have to swallow. Buhner has you taking 6-8 grams a day of multiple different herbs. The most an easily swallowable capsule (00) can hold is 650mg.

There is no getting around that math (unless you take less than the full recommended dose).

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Keebler
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Leaving out fillers, binders, etc. How fine it's ground and if it is extract vs. raw herb (or how much of each) can change the number of capsules. How tightly it's compacted also can make a different.

Some capsules are very loosely packed, others tight as concrete. And, as noted, the size of the capsule.

Until I get the first bottle (or until the web site is finished), it's hard to compare all things.
-

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radfaraf
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I make the caps myself, but keep falling behind because it takes so much work when there are so many herbs and so many caps for each one.

I also can't take cats claw because even a few dots of that causes a huge inflammation attack on my body that lasts a few days. If I could get caps premade without that I would buy them.

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Brussels
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Why do caps? I just gave that up and added the whole of the powdered herbs in a bottle of water, shaked it and drank it throughout the day.

It may taste a little bitter, but it felt better than ingesting so many capsules a day.

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minerva
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i do think you can't "get around the math" with the herbs taken each herb alone or in combo.
the amount might change some like keeble says but there will still be a lot of pills to get his dosage.

i am able to take them but i look at the pile of pills i lay out everyday ... its just sometimes its a bear to get them down.

thanks B for the idea. i will give the "drink" a try and see how it goes.

i didn't think about the alcohol factor with the tincture. when alcohol makes you feel bad this is something to consider.

i read in Dr. K 's list of things and one was taking Quintessence (b herbs) "work up to 8 dropperfulls 3 times a day) it doesn't state how long but that is a lot just like the pills.

i wonder if one day if they could use herb stem cells..... if that would "concentrate" the herbal content. that would be cool.

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Keebler
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minerva,

stem cells from seaweed caught my attention a while back. From either red (or brown) seaweed.

I did not try it as, during my study of it I saw that seaweed contains a natural MSG and for me (with a seizure disorder) could be too stimulating. I have spazed out a couple times when I had to much seaweed in my miso soup.

========================

http://www.vrp.com/articleprinter.aspx?a=2254

Stem Cell Enhancement

Fucoidan's Novel Role in Tissue Repair and Heart Health

By Chris D. Meletis, ND
-

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sparkle7
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Thanks for posting this.

The Chinese give you little pouches of powder sometimes when you get an herbal prescription. The pouches are folded in such a way where you can pour the powdered herbs down your throat & drink a big gulp of water.

Haven't thought about that for a while...

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sparkle7
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Also- thanks for the info on Fucoidan!
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Nutmeg
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Hi minerva,

I was thinking *plant stem cells* as I read this thread, too.

There are at least a couple of practitioners using them, and there is a chapter in Strasheim's "Insights into Lyme Disease Treatment..." book by one practitioner who uses them in their practice.

Maybe there are compound formulas available somewhere that contain the various Buhner herbs in plant stem cell forms. I think you have to get the herbal stem cells from a practitioner, though.

Interesting info--thank you all for posting this

Nutmeg

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lightparfait
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Many here use "Quintessence", the 5 in one herbal lyme and co-infection tincture. From Biopureusa. Can also find info on this at Biopure europe.

Contains pure organic tinctures of: Andropgraphis, Smilax, Stephania Root, Japanese Knotweed, and Red Root. Used in the lyme cocktail developed by Dr. K. Perfect for children with lyme and autism. Much easier to take then purchasing all the individual items...but only for those who need all of them.

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canefan17
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Does anybody have issues with sarsaparilla causing blood sugar problems? (for hypoglycemics)
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Keebler
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I've taken it and that has not been an issue - but it's usually been in a formula. It can cause lower G.I. tract distress if too much is taken.

If it lowers blood glucose for you, ask your LLMD or LL ND to balance the formula for you. Also, having eaten a balanced meal a bit closer to the time of taking it can help. Even taking Fish oil at the same time can help prevent drops in blood sugar.

Powdered extract is best if you have blood glucose concerns as an alcohol tincture can play havoc with stability.
-

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Keebler
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From my file notes (updated today with a search regarding the question raised about hypoglycemnia):
--------------

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/important-herbs/sarsaparilla-root-smilax-species.html

SARSAPARILLA ROOT (Smilax species)

Sarsaparilla root is sweet and bland in taste, and neutral in action. It removes toxins from the bowel, and reduces inflammation and dampness from the blood, liver, urinary system and skin.

RATING: Yellow, due to limitations is usage.

SAFETY ISSUES: None known

STARTING DOSAGE: Dried root: three to 12 grams per day

4:1 dried decoction: one to four grams per day

1:5 tincture: two to four milliliters (ml) in water or juice 3 times per day

Sarsaparilla root has been famous in the West since 1574, when a French physician described its use in treating syphilis.

Various Smilax species are used to treat infections and inflammation--especially those affecting the skin and intestines--in many countries including India, China, Europe, the United States, Brazil, Guatemala, and Saudi Arabia.

Because of the historical use for syphilis, many herbalists now use sarsaparilla root for Lyme disease, also caused by a spirochete organism.

Naturopaths believe that sarsaparilla root binds and remove endotoxin from the bowel, perhaps by stimulating liver clearance (Murray & Pizzorno, 1989).

Deng (1994) tells us that endotoxin--chemicals released into the host after breakdown of the cell walls of gram-negative organisms-- accords closely with the idea of "pathogenic toxins" in TCM. His studies have shown that the removal of endotoxin helps control many inflammatory and febrile diseases. . . .

* In 1942, the New England Journal of Medicine published a controlled study showing that an endotoxin-binding saponin extract of sarsaparilla was effective in reducing psoriasis symptoms (Thurman, 1942, reported in Murray & Pizzorno, 1989).

* Clinical tests in China demonstrated that the Chinese species called Tu fu ling rhizome (Smilax glabra) is effective for treating syphilis in about 90 percent of acute cases and 50 percent of chronic cases (Bensky & Gamble, 1986).

Since Lyme disease is also caused by spirochete organisms, it may prove beneficial in the treatment of this disease as well. TCM doctors use Tu fu ling rhizome to treat joint pain, turbid urine and jaundice caused by heat and dampness. . . .

-------

Excerpts above from: "The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook" - (author: Tillotson, et.al)

Although this is not a book about lyme, you can read much more about herbs here:

Home: http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com

================================

There is a six page chapter on Smilax in this book - you'd want to read all of that before using. Tiny doses are best at first as it can cause some rumbling in the belly and some sleepiness.

http://tinyurl.com/5vnsjg

Healing Lyme: Natural Healing And Prevention of Lyme Borreliosis And Its Coinfections - by Stephen Harrod Buhner

=====================

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search:

Smilax - 136 abstracts

Sarsaparilla - 150 abstracts

Smilax glabra - 36

Smilax, syphilis - one

Sarsaparilla, hypoglycemia - none

Smilax, hypoglycemia - none

------------

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9013805

Biol Pharm Bull. 1997 Jan;20(1):44-6.

. . . animal models of non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) with hyperinsulinemia. . . .

. . . SM also suppressed epinephrine-induced hyperglycemia in mice. SM-treated KK-Ay mice significantly decreased the blood glucose in an insulin tolerance test. We concluded that the hypoglycemic effect of SM raised insulin sensitivity.

=============

Some of the more recent abstracts at PubMed indicate that Smilax may be helpful to lessen Diabetic Neuropathy and also act as a lead chelator.
-

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sparkle7
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Thanks for the info Keebler!
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canefan17
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What's the best time to take the herbs?
Empty stomach or after meals?

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Keebler
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It's all explained in the book. It may vary for each herb. The book really needs to be read before starting any of these. So much helpful information there that just can't be put into posts here.

Some lyme support groups have the book for loan; some libraries, too. Or: http://tinyurl.com/5vnsjg
-

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canefan17
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I've read the book.

I don't recall reading anything about when to take it.

In fact I was reading the book while posting my question.

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Keebler
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Dosages and forms:

Japanese Knotweed: page 117-118

Smilax: p. 131

I don't see where he talks about before, during or after a meal but it's usually best to start in the middle of a meal with any new herbal supplement.
-

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mattnapa
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canefan17- Have you ever heard of some Aloe formulas increasing the uptake of Vitamin C?
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canefan17
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nu uh sure havent
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Tracy9
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So how many of these capsules do you need to take a day? How long do the 360 capsules last?

--------------------
NO PM; CONTACT: [email protected]

13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG.

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canefan17
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tracy,

you start out taking 3 capsules 3x's per day.

3 capsules = 1 500mg serving of knotweed, andrographis, cats claw, and 110mg of sarsparilla % dandelion

Ideally you'd want to at least get to 9 capsules 3x's/day

I plan on getting to 12 capsules 3x's/day

That equals 4x3 on buhner's terms

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mattnapa
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Here is a link on Aloe Vera and Vitamin C and E absorbtion.

http://sgnnutrition.com/scientific_research/-aloe_vera_juice.html

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Tracy9
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canefan 17,
Not sure if you are a member of www.lymefriends.org, but if you are, this would be awesome to post in the Herbs and Supplements group.

I often just post links to Lymenet in the groups.

--------------------
NO PM; CONTACT: [email protected]

13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG.

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canefan17
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Ya I am... but I hate the way that website is organized.

This website is superior to any other lyme board, health board, or miscellaneous board I've ever been to.

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canefan17
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hey keeb,

Do you think it's better to do 9 capsules 4x's per day

Or

12 capsules 3x's per day?

Just curious your opinion on buhners protocol

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Keebler
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-
You just started this a week or two ago. Neither of those are a good option. You should be only at a couple a day.

I actually can't do the math - I cannot process it. My brain has damage regarding reading numbers. I can see the 3 and the 4, but cannot separate out the rest of it to mean anything. It's like some code that just turns to a swirl of grey for my eyes.

Ask the original sources, the author and the manufacturer.
-

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canefan17
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Ok. Thanks
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Keebler
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So, I take it that you are so well with this to be considering increasing. That's good. Still, it's best add only one capsule a day for at least several days and see how you do before jumping up to full speed. Increasing one by one helps your body adjust.
-

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canefan17
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Ya I'm adding one a day like you said.

What I was asking is if I should spread my dosages out so that I'm taking the herbs 4 times per day vs taking them only 3 times per day.

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BackinStOlaf
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I was just about to place an order for all the individual herbs but it is all so confusing. I think I may try this!

--------------------
First Symptom 9/09
Multiple docs, negative Labcorp test
LLMD: 1/10
Positive Igenex/CDC test
Treatment 2/10
2/10-8/10 Amox, ceftin, zith, flagyl
Currently: Bicillin, Minocycline, still dealing with severe breathing issues

 -

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canefan17
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backin,

I like em. It's so easy to order, use, organize.

I'm up to 2 capsules 4x's/day

The goal is to get to 9 capsules 4x's/day.

I've had some herxes. Flu-like symptoms, soreness, etc etc

But I like em so far.

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canefan17
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Keebler,

How are the combo herbs working out for you?
How much are you up to/day?

I herxed for the first 10 days or so... and here I am at the 1 month mark and am doing REALLY well!

I like these herbs!

[ 07-21-2010, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: canefan17 ]

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canefan17
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Bump for Keebler
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Keebler
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Canefan,

Glad to hear you stuck with them and are doing so well.

I do think it's an excellent formula. Everything it says it is.

There is no way to compare my case or experience with anyone else's, though, for various reasons. I can't get into specifics but I'm doing things a bit differently - still, I am impressed with the formula. The balance is very good.

I will say that I had no herx whatsoever (but I've been on these in other forms for a while - and then started these with just ONE pill ONCE a day (uh - unlike what most do).

I never invite a herx. Quite the opposite, I will always back down the dose when I sense something is too much for my body to handle. A herx has always been counterproductive for me and I've learned how to avoid (or at least mitigate) that so my body works better for me.
-

[ 07-22-2010, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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canefan17
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Awesome Keebs!

I think the Andrographis made me real tired this week. and a few dizzy spills(lowBP)... but nothing too bad at all.

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Keebler
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With an overall formula that is well balanced, it would be very difficult to pick one property of one herb to single out.

Andrographis is calming by nature so, yes, it can bring on a tired feeling - but mostly if that is already there. While each person can vary in their reaction, I've taken very high dose of andrographis extract and it helps my inner ear vertigo, etc.

The Smilax is also calming. But other ingredients do help balance that out. And you also may need more rest. To heal, the body has to shut down some other activities.

Be sure you are getting enough water, especially in this hot summer. Since we eat no processed foods, be sure you are still getting the right amount of a good sea salt, as heat & sweat draws our more salt from our bodies.

While the dose of andrographis is low and not an extract, andrographis can act as a diuretic (and if water intake is too low, that can cause vertigo and fatigue).
-

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canefan17
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I wish they made a formula without andrographis.

I probably need to start each herb 1 by 1 before getting back on the combo herbs.


I do really like the protocol though.
I think Andro is kickin some serious butt!

[ 07-22-2010, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: canefan17 ]

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richedie
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Thanks! Do they sell a product for Bartonella treatment or do they only carry the core?? The core is only for Lyme, right?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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canefan17
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They sell knotweed and stephania. Bothh have effects on bart.


The core is generally for Lyme and Bart. Cryptolepsis or Art is for babs.

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richedie
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I wonder if it is OK for me to take those with ABX!?

--------------------
Mepron/Zith/Ceftin
Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse.
Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin.
Period of Levaquin and Ceftin.
Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin.
Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin.
Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw
Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia
Plaquenil/Biaxin

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Marz
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I agree with Canefan that I wish they didn't include andrographis.

I just got my bottle of greendragon in the mail yesterday.

I've added andrographis about a week ago because I found a bottle I hadn't used from a while back.

I think I've muddied the waters because I'm getting symptoms back that had gone away while on the individual herbs of the core protocol that my LLMD told me to take.

I see her Monday and wonder if she'll be upset that I've added andro.

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canefan17
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Marz,

That's awesome you go the Core Protocol.

It's been GREAT so far.

When I got to 3 caps, 4x's/day I felt 95%-100% on most days.
(granted the first couple weeks was rough, flu-like stuff)

It wasn't until I got to 6 caps, 4x's/day that Andrographis started kickin my ***(tired, dizzy, low BP, heart palps)

I've backed down to 3 caps today. And am either gonna stay on that dosage or increase it EXTREMELY SLOW.

Buhner has said before that some people only need 1 cap of each 3-4 times per day.
(And I treated with abx's for 9 months. So it's very likely I don't need the maximum dosage)


But Marz... these herbs do work. Androgrphis absolutely hits stuff too (microbes, parasites, lyme, etc etc)

Goodluck and shoot me a PM if you have questions.
I'm still learning it all myself.

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Keebler
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Marz,

The andrographis may be redundant for you, repeating what something else is supposed to do that you are already taking.

Or it may throw out of balance what your doctor had intended. Yes, it can be a wonderful help (the very best thing I've taken EVER, EVER).

However, it is contraindicated for others. For one poster here whom I respect, she has experienced seizures when on it.

My reaction is totally opposite. The first couple months it was a rough ride.

I do great on it and it's been the very best anti-seizure helper for me. It also allows for deep sleep. It has decreased edema tremendously. But I am very sleepy on it during the day but, recently went off it to try to get some things done and - well, my brain just can't wake up to do certain tasks without it, either.

While I say I do great on it, that does not mean I feel good. I never feel good. But, I can see and sense value and how it still helps - even if I don't feel good. With an inner ear problem, I just have to accept vertigo and nausea for a while longer yet.

Just be honest with your doctor about your own adjustments and I'm sure she will understand your desire to speed things up. But, for whatever one takes andrographis for - it is a calming herb. It also will make you go to the bathroom - a lot - as it helps to decrease edema (swelling). It can be rough on the stomach.

It may not be so that it brought back symptoms as some of the effects are just integral to its nature - and why it's usually never taken alone. And a little goes a long way.

Good luck as you get the wrinkles all ironed out.
-

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Marz
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Keebler, at first I felt like I was going to black out when I got out of bed in the morning. Maybe due to it's diuretic effect? Blood pressure was low too.

So effects are similar to yours canefan.

That doesn't happen anymore though, so I think I've adjusted to it. Maybe drinking more water helped.

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