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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Very interesting post by a LymeNet member

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Author Topic: Very interesting post by a LymeNet member
yankees237
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this is a post i found doing some searches on Igenex that poster "TF" made

"I recommend you borrow the book by Pam Weintraub, "Cure Unknown" from the library.

In there, Pam says that there are numerous strains of lyme disease (something like 17) all of which cause bulls eye rashes. However, all of these strains but 3 are "self-limiting" meaning that all they cause is the bulls-eye rash. The lyme goes no further in the body.

Only 3 strains of lyme disease go past the bulls eye stage and spread throughout your body.

If this is the case, then that explains why so many people get a bulls eye rash and go to their regular doc and get a few weeks of antibiotics and are fine. It is because they would have been fine without any antibiotics because they had one of the self-limiting strains of lyme.

Didn't you ever wonder how that happened? That would also explain why so many doctors believe that lyme is easily cured with no more than 30 days of doxy. They have experienced it!

I discussed this with my now-famous lyme doctor and he seemed to agree with what Pam Weintraub said.

I wish I could remember where in the book it says this, but I believe it is near the very back of the book.

Pam has credentials, so I think you can pretty much trust what she says--that her statements are a result of good scientific research.

Why not fly this explanation by your lyme doc and see what he thinks.

If it were me, I would have wanted my lyme doc to treat me for not only lyme but also babesiosis and bartonella. Is that possible while pregnant? If so, I would want to see if I got any sort of a herx from this treatment.

When I got a bulls eye after pulling a few weeds (never saw the tick) back in Aug. of 2008, I got to my lyme doc within the week and he treated me for all 3 diseases. I had a very mild herx on day 3. Never had any other symptoms. So, at the end of 30 days, I was done.

That herx on day 3 told me and my doc that the tick did indeed give me some disease(s).

Years prior to this bite, I had undiagnosed lyme disease for at least 10 years. Turns out I also had babs and bart. My third lyme doc got rid of all of these diseases for me and I completed my lyme treatment 5 years ago. I am still symptom-free, enjoying my life.

The doc that got me well is the one I saw in 2008 when I got that bulls eye.

So, that's 2 people who believe you can get a bulls eye and not have to worry about lyme disease. The problem is that we don't have a way to test for the 3 strains of lyme that cause this terrible sickness. So, we end up having to treat every single bulls eye.

This explanation might also explain why Igenex told you the tick did not have lyme, I guess.

However, Lymetoo has posted on here a number of times that she sent a tick to Igenex for testing and the test was negative and she still got lyme disease. So, that is one person I know of who got a bad result from Igenex. Hopefully, she will see this post and reply herself."


anybody know anything about this? can anybody elaborate on it some more?

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17hens
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Wow, this is very interesting...

--------------------
"My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Psalms 73:26

bit 4/09, diagnosed 1/10

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carly
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Know anything? Not much, just wading through lots of information and misinformation and trying to make sense of it all.

Elaborate? No I can't.

But I'd like to comment. This just supports the idea of the desperate need for more sophisticated testing.

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Lymetoo
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"If this is the case, then that explains why so many people get a bulls eye rash and go to their regular doc and get a few weeks of antibiotics and are fine. It is because they would have been fine without any antibiotics because they had one of the self-limiting strains of lyme.

Didn't you ever wonder how that happened? That would also explain why so many doctors believe that lyme is easily cured with no more than 30 days of doxy. They have experienced it!"

++++++++++++

Makes perfect sense to me!!

Yes, I did get sick from a tick they said was free of lyme and babesia. I got on abx the same day as the bite. Nine days later I began feeling ill. ( now, this was my second round of lyme.. not the first )

I think I took doxy about 2 months or more and then was OK.

My second round of Lyme (from this tick in spring '05) came about 6-7 mo after I had been successfully treated for Lyme and babesia from 2000-2004.

No abx for Lyme since then.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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onbam
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Those three strains are the weaponized ones.
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bcb1200
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Sorry, onbam. I respect your opinion on the lyme conspiracy theories, but I don't agree. (Neither does Weintraub.)

I am disseminated, but the symptoms came on extremely gradual over the course of 1-2 years. To me, that seems like a very terrible / poorly designed bio weapon. It is too slow.

Also..Weintraub discussed how the most common disseminated strain (B31?) is identical in the USA and Europe and it was found in the EU before it was found here.

Just my opinion.

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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sutherngrl
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I don't know if I believe in the bio weapon theory or not; buts its possible that it was an experimental bio weapon and accidentially got out of the lab. Maybe it didn't work like they thought it would.
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TerryK
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Page 343 in "Cure Unknown", the author states that only 4 of the 20 strains that can cause rash actually cause dissemminated disease.
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littlebit27
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I am confused- really confused- maybe it's just my Lyme brain at 5 am but I am confused.

I'm going to look this up on the book in just a min-if I find something I will re-post.

Oh but to add-I don't think it's a conspiracy-I don't think it was meant to be a bio weapon. Like bcb said if it was-it was a poorly constructed one because my symptoms have been slowly coming on maybe since 2004-2005. Very mild-seeemingly un-related symtpoms, until BAM it all came crashing down.

--------------------
*Brittany Lyme Aware on FB*
http://littlebithaslyme.wordpress.com/

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littlebit27
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Ok the only thing I found was part of what TerryK posted. So to expand on TerryK's post...

Pam Weintraub states on page 343 of "Cure Unknown":
"Soon it became Qiu's job to travel the Eastern seaboard as far north as New Hampshire and south through the Carolinas collecting ticks infected with B. Burgdorferi spirochetes. The Borrelia were duly isolated and compared for differences in their genes.

Eventually, the researchers focused on twenty strains, each with a differen version of the changeable OspC. Working with those twenty strains, Luft learned that six didn't infect humans and ten caused only a rash. Only four of the twenty could leave the skin to invade other tissue like the heart and joints or the brain."

Weintraub goes on to say:
" The implications are profound. One of the most important is that if just four strains of the twenty cause disseminated infection, then the roster of rash-based studies on the treatment of early Lyme disease, conducted from the 1980s to the present, would have to be reassessed. Take a moment to ponder the simple math: It would be impossible to accept results based on the assumption that 100 percent of Lyme rashes can cause invasive disease when a significant percent cannot. Some of the studies claim very high cure rates for early infection; yet if the causative strain were of the rash-only variety, then even orange juice would be a 'cure.' Are recommended treatment protocols truly curing most of those with early, invasive borreliosis? Or has noise from rash only strains onscured less rosy results?"

That's, for the most part, what she says about the different strains. It is a whole section in the book so she could reference it again later, but that is what I found going off of TerryK's post (thanks for the page number or I never would have found it!).

Hope that helps.

--------------------
*Brittany Lyme Aware on FB*
http://littlebithaslyme.wordpress.com/

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rks
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If you read Lab 257 you might consider the possibility of it being used along with other bacteria and viruses as a bioweapon.

I read it a little while ago. My library had a copy of it so I didn't have to buy it. Though, I'm not sure I'm convinced of everything he claims, it is enough to make one wonder.

http://www.amazon.com/Lab-257-Disturbing-Governments-Laboratory/dp/0060011416

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jwick25
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My father-in-law recently told me that he once (over 20 years ago) had a bull's-eye type rash.

Fortunately, he has never gotten ill. Of course, his rash could have been something different and non-tick related.

A couple of you mentioned sucessful treatment for lyme/bartonella and babesia. May I ask what type of treatment you received? Private message me if you'd like.

It's amazing to hear how many strains of tick-borne illness are believed to exist.

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nefferdun
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About bio-weapon. It says in Cure Unknown that Wilie Burderfour (SP) made extremely virulent strains of borrellia by feeding the brains of dead mice to baby mice. This is proof that the lab was trying to produce stronger and stronger bacteria. What for? Who knows, but if it somehow got out of the lab, then what? I happen to live about 11 miles from that lab and I was told there is no lyme disease in Montana because we do not have deer ticks. Why do we now have lyme disease, when for hundreds of years it did not exist here? I don't speculate but a bio-weapon that a mad scientist released is not completely unreasonable.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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Sick Tick
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The ticks in the southern states transmit a type of borrelia that causes Master's Disease, or STARI (southern tick associated rash disease or something like that?), a different type of Lyme I believe it is. Don't quote me here, but an MD in Misourri was doing research on it, and I think that it causes just the rash.....not sure though. Anyone familiar with this research, and or this disease? I got bit in Arkansas, and so I read about it back then...thought that maybe that was what I had....but when it disseminated and my nervous system was involved, decided probably not. I also had RMSF though, so I guess it is possible that RMSF is what made me ill, and not the Lyme....hmmm.

But I have spoke with many who remained symptom-free after having treatment for the rash....so there you go!

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Rumigirl
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STARI or Master's Disease definitely causes disease! That was the point of Dr. Master's work.

Unfortunately, I do believe the info in Lab 257 in correct, if controversial.

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onbam
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Incapacitating weapons, from a strategy viewpoint, are even better then lethal ones; more resources are tied up when "enemy" personnel have to care for the sick.
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ukcarry
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This is one of the parts of 'Cure Unknown' that I found the most interesting because it means that some people who never go on to get Ld after a bull's eye rash and a short treatment of abx did not have a strain that leads to Ld in the first place.

This possibility obviously would skew statistics of short course abx success rates.

Thank you, Littlebit, for posting the page number: I have often tried to find that part!


Carry

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Lymetoo
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onbam.. Not everyone here was infected in the past 20-30 yrs. Lyme has been around for eons. I got it way before it could have been weaponized.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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twingirl
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My LLMD thinks that some strains of lyme are not found in nature and are man made.

I tend to agree with him. Especially after reading Lab 257. They even admit to having lyme bacteria in their freezers.

Also remember the Tuskegee experiments with syphillis. What were those for if not to use as possible bioweapons?

--------------------
dar

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Heleneh
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A person could have more than one form of lyme disease possibly then. Interesting......
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rks
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"Especially after reading Lab 257. They even admit to having lyme bacteria in their freezers."

And, isn't it funny how LD broke out in CT not long after they were "working" with ticks.

Yes, anything is possible, but of course, I doubt we'll ever really know.

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bcb1200
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quote:
Originally posted by nefferdun:
About bio-weapon. It says in Cure Unknown that Wilie Burderfour (SP) made extremely virulent strains of borrellia by feeding the brains of dead mice to baby mice. This is proof that the lab was trying to produce stronger and stronger bacteria. What for? Who knows, but if it somehow got out of the lab, then what? I happen to live about 11 miles from that lab and I was told there is no lyme disease in Montana because we do not have deer ticks. Why do we now have lyme disease, when for hundreds of years it did not exist here? I don't speculate but a bio-weapon that a mad scientist released is not completely unreasonable.

Because 100 years ago there was no forests in New England, nor were there deer. It was primarily farming communities. The woods of New England are "New" and didn't exist 100 years ago. There was virtually no deer. Today...the deer population has exploded and the woods provide the perfect cover.

That is a big reason.

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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twingirl
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"And, isn't it funny how LD broke out in CT not long after they were "working" with ticks"

Exactly. This can't be a coincidence. Just because lyme has been around for years doesn't mean they didn't study it for bio weapon possibilities.

--------------------
dar

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greengirl
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Popping in with regard to the original conversation to say that, in the revised (2009)edition of Cure Unknown the quoted paragraph appears on page 348.
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linky123
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A world-renowned llmd told our family that Adolph Hitler used it as a bio-weapon in WWll. My father fought in Europe during WWll.

Looking back on our family's medical history, it all makes sense.

After the war, our country got it, and made it even more virulent. Google 'Project Paperclip' Lyme Disease.' Lots of information there.

--------------------
'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28

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onbam
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Borellia were, to our knowledge, first weaponized by the Japanese in the 30's. My links go into this.

Also, the original msd sheet for Bb, now only available on ctlymedisease.org (it was changed on the Canadian gvt's site the day i first posted this) states that it was causing laboratory infections YEARS before burgdorfer "identified it."

Burgdorfer admits as much in his interview with Kris Kraft, which he ends by saying he "hasn't told him everything." So do the CDC thugs who try to silence him pre-interview, claiming that his knowledge is classified.

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