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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Nattokinase reaction?

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Author Topic: Nattokinase reaction?
D Bergy
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As many of you know, I treat my wife for lyme and also Bart using frequency treatments. That has been going along pretty good, but this morning she had a real unusual problem, and I need to know if any of you have any experience with this.

She took one dose of Nattokinase last night. It is the first time she has used it. She has had some indication of possible arterial blockage, which she will be tested for in the near future. That is why she is taking it for now.

She woke up this morning with a horrible headache, that was almost unbearable. We had to go to the emergency room it was so bad. I wanted them to run a CT scan, as I was afraid it could possibly be an undiagnosed bleed in the brain, that opened up as a result of the Nattokinase

It turns out that is not the case, so I am relieved about that. Her blood work was normal, and they are also doing more lab tests for West Nile Virus, Lyme (good luck) and Anaplasmosis. The doctor has seen all of these in the past with some other patients.
Those results will take a week or so.

My question regards the Nattokinase. Does anyone know of any possible relationship between this supplement and the huge headache reaction? It may be totally unrelated, and probably is, but I am just covering all bases.

I have not treated her for over two weeks, so it is not related to that.

I took some Natokinase this morning to make sure it was not adulterated, and it has not had any effect on me.

She was bit by a tick a few weeks ago, and who knows if that has anything to do with it or not.

It will be interesting if the Lyme test comes back positive. It would be the first time that has happened.

Any theories out there?

Dan

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gwb
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I've been taking Nattokinase for one year now and have not noticed any side effects from this whatsoever. I take two 2000 FU (200 mg) a day.

The only time I've read where people who take Nattokinase have headaches is when they're on blood thinners, but other than that it seems to not be a common side effect. Of course, Nattokinase should not be taken by those who bleed very easily or have ulcers, which you no doubt already know.

My bet it's related to the recent tick bite. Man, that really is sad that she got bit again--so sorry!

Sure hope the doctors can get to the root of the problem.

Gary

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Carol in PA
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Could this be a herx?
Systemic enzymes reduce biofilm, exposing the Lyme bacteria to the white cells.

I found out that headache was part of a herx for me.

Carol

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D Bergy
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Headaches are not typical Herx symptoms for her, certainly not of this magnitude anyway. But if the Nattokinase somehow affected Lyme or Bart in the brain, that no other past treatment has touched, then I suppose it is possible. It seems a bit of a reach to me, but maybe possible.

Regarding blood thinners: She does take 500 mg of both Ginger and Turmeric in addition to Krill Oil. not blood thinners in the real sense of the word, but they do make the blood more slippery, for lack of a better term. They also reduce biofilm to some extent, so the Natto is not new in that respect. Although it could be much more effective.

I think it is not related, but I do not want to overlook any possibility.

The hard part is she will have to take it again, to make sure. Not sure how I feel about that.

I am hoping the tests turn up West Nile Virus or something else that is self limiting.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Dan

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Lymetoo
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I'm very sorry to hear this, Dan! Give her our best regards, OK? (oh, and a hug too!)

The only reaction I've had from natto was terrible GI distress. Can't take that stuff.

I'm with gwb, thinking it's the tick bite. UGH! You may have to do further testing with Igenex, since the hospital likely uses Quest.

Let us know how she is doing tomorrow.

[group hug]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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D Bergy
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She appreciates the hug.

They do use Quest, but if the tick did have Lyme, I have that covered anyway. I am not that familiar with Anaplasmosis, but anything has to be easier than getting rid of Lyme.

I am not afraid of something that can be diagnosed. I do not like not knowing what I am dealing with.

Her headache is receding somewhat. I hope it is an isolated incident.

Dan

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karenl
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Dan,

I cannot take nattokinase. I had a very bad reaction with wobenzyme, but not horrible headache.

I have small vessel bleeding in the brain, they will not find it on the CT, they only can see bigger things. Does she have vessel problems? Could she have small vessel disease? Sjogrens?

Also enzymes would be not allowed for persons with low alpha one antitrypsin as the enzymes attack the tissue.

As far as my problem with wobenzyme: I got horrible vibrations all over my body, took 2 weeks to just calm it down. It was on day number 4 after 9 wobenzyme a day, so this looks like a bad die-off.

My doctor lets his other patients start natto 1/2 tablet a week for several weeks, not one a day.

I also think chlamydia pneumonia reacts to natto and enzymes pretty well.
Did you think about this headache could have been a kind of secondary porphyria reaction because of cpn die off.
I once had a porph attack from a bit of sun and my head got horrible symptoms.

I take E and fishoil to thin my blood.
Karen

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D Bergy
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How did they detect the small vessel bleeding in your brain Karen?

She has no autoimmune disease that I am aware of. She was perfectly fine the day before this happened.

She has used digestive enzymes with meals, without any difficulty. Sun exposure does not bother her either, although when her Lyme was worse, it had a negative effect. She has no reaction to Sun exposure any longer.

She has no health problems that are associated with Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency, but I am sure it is not something that she has been tested for.

I have no way of knowing if she has CPN, but also have no reason to believe she does have it.

I had halted frequency treatments for the last two weeks because of nervous system damage which I assume is from a lot of die off in a very short time. She has been normal the last few days, but did have symptoms of this prior to now.

I am not going give her any more Natto just because I do not have an explanation at this time.
I not going to do any treatment until things stabilize. It is always something with this disease.

Dan

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D Bergy
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Along the lines of the recent problem of nerve damage from treatment, I found this little piece of information that would make sense.

It is just one of many possibilities.

Inflammation in the Maxillary Nerve. Early studies suggest that some chronic tension-type and migraine headaches may be caused by inflammation in the nerve that runs behind the cheekbone (the maxillary nerve)--not around the covering of the brain. In fact, some work using ice water for reducing swelling in areas of the gums above the last upper molars has relieved some severe migraine and tension-type headaches.

Dan

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karenl
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Several MRIs and MRA.No treatment possible.It looks a little different than healthy tissue on the MRI but also the EEG would show the same findings in the same area.

Can she tolerate NAC without any flu like symptoms? This would possibly tend to no cpn.
I think often they misdiagnose bartonella and cpn but I am sure you have exact testing.

Why are you looking for bleeding? Could be a bloodclot as well? I think she was not on plaquenil, right?
Does she have the biofilm (Fry)?
I think it has to do with natto.

Estrogen could do such a sudden thing as well and progesterone can cause strokes in some people.

Did you google the interactions of all the meds
she took, the ginger with natto etc.?

If you use the biotensor you just could test which medicine is bad for her. Can you do ART testing just the simple thing with the arm to find which one makes her arm weak. But do not show her what you put in her hand to be tested.

West Nile does different symptoms, not just headache.You know when you have West Nile.

So sorry she has to deal with such a sudden problem, it is scary. More hugs for her.

Karen

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D Bergy
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I did not think it was likely that she had a bleed in the brain, and still do not. It was the properties of the Natto as a clot dissolving substance, and the timing of the headache, that made that one possibility.

Since it was a potentially dangerous condition, although unlikely, and they were likely going to do a CT scan anyway, I thought it would be good for them to look for it.

I have no exact testing for anything. I have to figure out infections by symptoms, and reactions to treatment. I am the only one who treats her and no doctor is involved, so any testing, is by my invention for the most part.

Lyme is a given, but there is a second infection that responds to the Bartonella frequency I run on her. She has had a couple of symptoms of it, but not most of the symptoms. Swelling in the ankles has been reduced by a huge amount by using the Bart 832 Hz, and it also has probably been part of the nerve damage that has happened recently.

I am also using a much more powerful frequency device than before, and likely over did the treatment. I killed too much, too fast. Probably both Lyme and what I am presuming is Bart.

After sleeping on it, I do think this was most likely related to the nerve damage from the die off. I have had seen several other symptoms of it, and the numbness in the face she has had, certainly indicates nerve damage also.

I think time will take care of this also. She did go to work this morning, so she must have felt better. There is no way she could have done that yesterday.

She has had one of these headaches in the past, prior to Lyme. It came as a result of blocked sinuses. This was not the case now, but it probably was pressure on that nerve that caused the first episode. This time it was damage to that nerve that may have been responsible.

That seems most likely to me, and the Nattokinase was probably not involved. If it was involved, it was only as an irritant to the nerve.

Thank you all for your help. I learned a few things along the way.

Dan

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sparkle7
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Glad to hear your wife is feeling better, Dan. Often, with this illness, it's like being one of those blind men feeling an elephant & finding very different shapes & sizes.

Self-treating has it's drawbacks but I've made alot of progress. When I first started using the LightWorks, I had some terrible herxes. Mostly, digestive type things which I never had before. It was awful. I didn't know how infrared light could be causing it.

I think it was because I didn't know I had parasites. It must have been effecting them.

We don't know how we will react to things. It's just part of the process. It's scary but hopefully we all all get through it & improve.

Good luck! It's nice to see that you have been so pro-active in your wife's healing process.

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D Bergy
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That is a very good analogy to dealing with this.
I am not very familiar with Bart in particular, so I am not sure if I am dealing with an Elephant or a Mouse.

Self treatment was not what I wanted, I am not trained in medicine by any means. But what else can you do when the doctors in the area know less than I do about Lyme? Much less treating it.

She did take MMS at one time, so I doubt there is much in the way of parasites. That would complicate things considerably.

I hope the LightWorks treatment gets more standardized with time. I think it has a good potential in Lyme treatment. There have been quite a few people that have benefited from it already. It would be my next choice in treatments, if this fails to cure.

She has a slight headache today, and some of the other nerve damage symptoms have popped up also today, but less than before. The other symptoms disappear completely, and then come back, but not as badly.

So now my puzzle is why do these go away, and then come back. I do not really dare treat as long as they are present.

I see three possibilities, and if the last one is the case, then I am doing the wrong thing.

1) She is suffering from the original die off from three weeks ago, and the nerves have not yet recovered completely. Dead matter and toxins are working its way out of the system, and it takes time.

I can believe that part, but the symptoms one day, and not the next, seem unusual. Maybe that is the way it works? I really don't know for sure. These are not typical Herx symptoms either. I know how they present themselves.

2) She is still experiencing die off, as possibly the frequency treatments damaged Bart and/or Lyme enough so it is slowly dying, and this is causing the back and forth of symptoms.

Maybe, but only cyst form Lyme does this, from my experience, and I have no clue how Bart responds to this treatment. Not enough experience with it.

3) The Bart and/or Lyme is taking off and while I may have killed some of it, I may have caused it to try to reproduce as a defense mechanism. The on again, off again, symptoms she is having is a result of this reproduction/re-population.

This seems least likely, but if it is the case, I am wrong in not treating more.

I guess in the case of three possibilities and two of them seem more likely, I should stay the course and hold off on treatment until I have more information based on future symptoms.

I hope that turns out to be the correct course.

One thing that is unusual that has happened recently, is she craves Watermelon. We have bought more Watermelon this year than in the last five years. It may not mean anything, but I wonder if her body is starving for Vitamin D?

And if it is, why now?

Dan

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D Bergy
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I guess Watermelon is not a good source of D. Good thing I do not trust my memory.

Potassium, and vitamin A are the most prevalent substances in Watermelon.

I will have to look into that a little more.

http://www.healthalternatives2000.com/fruit-nutrition-chart.html

Dan

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D Bergy
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Ok, I think i have the answer I was looking for in Potassium. All of these symptoms are present in her at times. I think this question is resolved also. I will find out shortly with a supplement.

Another potassium deficiency symptom is tingling sensation or numbness experienced in the body, palpitations (due to irregular heart beats) and fainting (low blood pressure)

Dan

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Digby
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Dan,

I tried Natto once and got a massive headache. I can take proteolytic enzymes (like Wobenzyme) but Natto and Bolouke both caused severe headaches. I never figured this out.

Also of interest is that when Dr C had me on daily heparin injections I had no side effects, herxes or benefit. I did however wind up with mild anemia and quit.

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SForsgren
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Soy allergy ?

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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D Bergy
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She can use Soy Sauce with no problem. Bread and a host of other foods contain soy, so I don't think it is an allergy.

But maybe it is different in some way because it is fermented?"

Dan

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CD57
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I had this happen on nattokinase. Not as bad as to send me to the ER but intense pain everywhere including head. It lasted three days. I am kind of numb to these types of things now so waited it out and it went away......LLMD later said herx from exposing bugs and it was die-off.

Now I take nattokinase and buoloke with no problem.

I have seen some other posts similar to yours in the past.

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sparkle7
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re: I hope the LightWorks treatment gets more standardized with time. I think it has a good potential in Lyme treatment. There have been quite a few people that have benefited from it already. It would be my next choice in treatments, if this fails to cure.

--
I stopped using it for treatment. Some people did quite well with a stronger version of an infrared device called a PE-1. In my case, I think I had to clear up some problems first like parasites & potential babesia. I don't think it's good to use infrared light if you have either of those issues.

I do use it on occasion for aches & pains. I may go back to it at some point later.

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