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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Is there a test for not being able to detox?

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Author Topic: Is there a test for not being able to detox?
mattnapa
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I went to a meeting of my local Lyme group for the first time yesterday, and a lady said she had been on abx for a long time and then found out there was a test that would have shown that abx would not be effective on her because she had some genetics that prevented her from de-toxing.

I have tried a search on the issue here, but I remain unclear as to what this is about

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Keebler
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-
Relative to that:
-----------

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/91842?

PORPHYRIA Thread - along with details about KPU/HPU (Mauve factor)
-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
asummers
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YES!

Comprehensive Methylation Panel with Methylation Pathway Analysis

http://www.dramyyasko.com/

The site is geared towards children with autism, but I know other adult lyme patients that have used her tests to see why they can't tolerate abx or handle certain supplements.

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kday
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I never had a methylation pathway analysis, but have benefited greatly from using a Yasko-like methylation protocol - only much higher doses of certain things. It works awesome for detox and you start dumping metals in a safe way. My urine is heavily concentrated, and this started worrying me (even though I felt better when my urine was more concentrated). Had kidneys/liver checked and a urinalysis, and everything came back normal. After researching, this can be a sign of detox is SOME patients - usually those with more severe mercury poisoning. -yikes-

I believe Amy Yasko has recently said at a recent conference that her RNA formulas are the most powerful components of her protocols.

I think Amy Yasko is a very intelligent person, but I don't understand how these RNA formulas work or what they are exactly, so I am a bit skeptical.

And yes, she has a Tick Support Formula along with other formulas that could be helpful.

Perhaps I should buy her new book. Yes, it has an autism title, but her methods and ideas apply to many chronic illnesses.

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Robin123
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I did the Detoxigenomic liver test through Genova Diagnostic lab in NC. It shows how we are able to detox via eight enzyme pathways in Phase I, and four out of 10 drains in Phase II.

Phase I of liver detox is like the bathtub filling up, and Phase II is like its ability to drain.

Having difficult genetics means our bathtub fills up too quickly and doesn't drain. We're talking toxins here.

It really helped my LLMD see what my body can and cannot handle genetically, and how to consider a slower path re specific supplements.

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mattnapa
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Thanks folks. i am still unclear on whether poorly functioning liver detox pathways means abx is ineffective. I believe what some are saying is that abx still kills pathogens but the body is not able to eliminate them, and then you sort of clog up.
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kday
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If you detox poor you will have more severe herxes, more pain, more psych problems, feelings of toxicity or feeling "poisoned",, etc.

If you don't detox well, Training your body to detox again is critical. A herx used to be something from the devil for me. Now, my herxes have been so mild, I question... Was that really a herx?

Herxing hard is not a good thing. Not only for your physical health, but your mental health as well. Found out the hard way. However, if you have Lyme and your detox is good, you should have had atleast 1 good herx in my opinion.

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mattnapa
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Pardon me if I continue to express my lack of understanding on some of this.

The methylation pathways seem to be synonumus with the liver detox pathways and there are roughly 7 or so major ones.

Glutathione and superoxide dismutase being one of the largest of those.

Ok a few things come up for me. the kidneys are the other major detox organ. Should it be seen as a seperate or augmentive in its relation to the liver methylation pathways.

Also is there any reason to consider any further distinction of the immune system with methylation pathways, such as t-4 mediated,neutrophils, free radical scavengers, etc?

Are some aspects of the immune response especially oriented towards microbes? Are the natural killer cells of particular import in this regard?

And if that was not enough how do we relate this to the inflammation response.

It seems like there are somewhat seperate strategies of reducing inflammatory responses whic includes a good balance of proper fats.

I know there are no absolutes in trying to parse this out, but any clarification is appreciated

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Mariski
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Mattnapa,

I can't even begin to answer all of your questions. I would certainly like to see the answers.

What I do know is that most of the focus is on the methylation detox pathway (out of the six phase II detox pathways in the liver). This focus is not just for people with lyme, but also (and perhaps even more so) for people with CFS and autism.

Someone else on Lymenet recently posted this pdf, which is quite relevant for your question:
"Biofilms, Methylation & Heavy Metal Detoxification in Lyme Disease"

According to that presentation, people with lyme disease have low levels of glutathione due to heavy metals and the presence of multiple infections. This is important since glutathione is critical for the body to be able to detox. At the same time, defects in methylation can result in low levels of glutathione.

"These two factors, independently and together, result in impaired excretion of mercury and other toxic metals/chemicals, resulting in a higher body burden."

In my own case, I was developing eczema all of the sudden and my doctor and I decided that my liver was just not detoxiing properly. I am now injecting myself three times a week with glutathione (2 cc) and MB12 (1 cc). In addition I have added in Thorne 5MTHF, which is a special form of folic acid for people who cannot convert folic acid into the form that it needs to be.

Just adding in the glutathione and MB12 has made a tremendous difference for me. I feel like a human being and my head is almost clear. (Still have a slight residual headache, but that may have more to do with the fact that I don't get enough sleep.) And my eczema is gone!!

I suspect that this will not solve the problem if I actually have a genetic defect that impairs the methylation cycle. However, for now it has really improve the quality of my life, since apparently I am now able to detox.

I don't know if this has answered your question but I hope that it is at least useful.

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Mariski
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I have been doing some more research about the methylation cycle. This information is from the website of Sarah Myhill, who works with CFS/ME people in England. She is discussing the work of Richand van Konynenburg, who has proposed that blockages in the methylation cycle lead to chronic fatigue. She says the following:


"Rich van Konynenburg's idea is that ineffective methylation is a major cause of fatigue. There are many possible reasons but those that he's identified for which methylation is essential to are:

To produce vital molecules such as Co Q-10 and carnitine.

To switch on DNA and switch off DNA...When viruses attack our bodies, they take over our own DNA in order to replicate themselves. If we can't switch DNA/RNA replication off then we will become more susceptible to viral infection.

To produce myelin for the brain and nervous system.

To determine the rate of synthesis of glutathione, which is essential for detoxification...(and) is an essential anti-oxidant...

To control sulphur metabolism of the body, not just glutathione but also cysteine, taurine and sulphate. This is an important process for detoxification.

As part of folic acid metabolism. This also switches on synthesis of new DNA and RNA.

For normal immune function. The methylation cycle is essential for cell mediated immune function and blockages here will mean that infections will not be adequately dealt with.

The overall effect is that if the methylation cycle doesn't work, the immune system mal-functions, the detoxification system mal-functions, our ability to heal and repair is reduced and the anti-oxidant system mal-functions."


So, in short, the methylation cycle plays a critical role in a number of processes important for detoxification and the health of the immune system.

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Robin123
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Here are some notes from the detoxigenomic test: the four out of 10 drains test for methylation, acetylation, glutathione and oxidative protection.

The methylation notes say the catechol-O-methyl transferase is the enzyme primarily responsible for breaking down the neurotransmitters dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine.

In the acetylation category, N-acetyl-transferase detoxifies many environmental toxins, including tobacco smoke and exhaust fumes.

Polymorphisms (genetic problems) can result in slower or faster than normal addition of an acetyl group to these toxins. Both directions are at risk for toxin overload.

Glutathione-S-transferase detoxifies many water-soluble environmental toxins, including many solvents, herbicides, fungicides, lipid peroxides and heavy metals.

The oxidative protection one is comprised of three superoxide dismutase enzymes. They protect cells from increased oxidative stress and free radical damage to cell structures like membranes, mitochondria, DNA and proteins.

There are more notes, some of which I can add tomorrow.

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Robin123
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quote:
Originally posted by mattnapa:
Thanks folks. i am still unclear on whether poorly functioning liver detox pathways means abx is ineffective. I believe what some are saying is that abx still kills pathogens but the body is not able to eliminate them, and then you sort of clog up.

I think we have a harder time handling most treatments until we are able to detox. Our bodies are already clogged up with toxins due to our genetic difficulty in detoxing.

So maybe too, what you're saying - because we are overloaded, we can't handle toxins created by treatment.

As a compromised detoxer, I have stumbled upon a category of treatment I can handle - anti-inflammatory supplements like mangosteen juice, noni juice, grapeseed extract.

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mattnapa
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Thanks for the responses Mariski and Robin.The phase 1 and 11 helps me.I remain unclear on what specific pathways involve Bb or other microbes, but I imagine it is not as neat a subject as that. On a diffrent not I came accross this posted by Keebler

http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm

I am not completely clear how this information relates to de-tox. Is Acetycholin, Carnitine, Sam-e, licorice and some of the others mentioned usually associated with de-tox. also I looked at one of the main de-tox threads that had a good index presented by Springshowers. The list supposedly has links next to all the items mentioned, but I do not see them. I think a good list of de-tox items with links would be worthwhile if folks have the inclination

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