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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » General Support » Socialized medicine...I say, GOOD LETS DOIT (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Socialized medicine...I say, GOOD LETS DOIT
METALLlC BLUE
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quote:

Whatever happened to that belief?

Lyme Disease

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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Ocean
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Just wanted to comment on the 'infant mortality rate' comment.

In the US, most hospitals will try to save a baby that is 24 weeks gestation or more. Actually, some hospitals MUST try to. Their was a Neonatolotgist at my old hosptial who saved a few 22 weekers, and fortunately they survived.

Now, if that child dies, s/he is listed in the infant mortality rate. Plus when more people are using infertility drugs, the rate of multiples increase and the rate of premature birth.

Other countries do not count these babies in their infant mortality rate because they let them die at birth saying there was nothing they could do and in many hospitals that is most likely accurate.

So please know that much of the factor is due to our specialized health care that tries to save preemies (and I am very much FOR saving the preemies, I used to be a NICU nurse).

Take care,
Ocean

--------------------
http://www.healingfromlymedisease.blogspot.com/

Sick since 1996...Diagnosed 10/2008

IgM:23-25 IND, 31+++, 39 IND, 41 +++
IgG: 31 IND, 41++, 58+

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gwenb
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I just wanted to pipe in as someone who lives in Canada. I pay $60 a month in healthcare premiums. That covers my visits to the doctors and if I need surgery, xrays etc. I would rank the quality of care as good - to very good. Not to say that there are not problems with waiting lists, but I have always gotten prompt professional care (Lyme disease is another matter).

Some food for thought:
1. In Canada, per capita, we pay less for universal coverage for all of our citizens than the US government does for partial coverage for some of its citizens. There are tremendous cost savings related to economies of scale re: central planning.

2. People n Canada do not go bankrupt from paying for health care. A close friend of mine was diagnosed with late-stage cancer and received top notch care for 18 months for free (aside from the $60 health premium we pay). He is fully recovered.

3. Patients who are operated on in non-profit hospitals have higher survival rates than for-profit facilities. I will look around to provide the link.

The Canadian system is far from perfect but I am very happy that we have it.

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heiwalove
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thanks for sharing that, gwenb. if things don't turn around in the US in the next few years re: healthcare and gay marriage (another issue entirely, i know) i might just give up and move north.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/violinexplosion

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luvs2ride
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Yep. If he does it the way his website outlines it, it won't be free at all, but will be more affordable AND will be paid for by the user.

And we still choose our doctor and treatment will not be overseen by the insurance company.

I'm very comfortable with the sound of that program.

We already have taxpayer sponsored free health clinics, medicare and medicaid as well as insurance for our veterans. Not to mention the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and the United Way. So, why aren't these programs sufficient?

If some do not qualify for medicaid because they have a job but not health insurance then just make medicaid more available. What is wrong with that plan?

I agree America's quality of medical care stinks but I attribute that to a mindset that loves to run diagnostic tests but has a hard time identifying what the problem is and never, never looks for the cause. Just treats the symptoms.

I attribute it to our pathetic diet and lifestyle that no one wants to give up. They just want a pill to make it all not matter.

I do not attribute it to a lack of someone else to pay the bill.

Integrative care and personal responsibility for our health is what is lacking in our medical care.


Susan

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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dontlikeliver
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quote:
Originally posted by ugagal:
Luvs2ride you are 100% correct! My wise grandfather always told me "If it looks too good to be true...then it probably is." I'm afraid there is going to be a very large group of Americans who will be greatly disappointed in the "FREE" government insurance.

Also, I was not raised to believe I was entitled to anything in this ole life and if I wanted better then I would have to work for it. Whatever happened to that belief?

But, it would not be "FREE". It's still paid for; it's just a different system where YOUR taxes pay your insurance, or if you are self-employed, YOUR WAGES pay your own contributions to the insurance 'pot'.

So, if you've then PAID your contributions, are you not "ENTITLED" to reap the benefits of what you paid into?

Let me just make an assumption that 'you' right now have private medical insurance for which you pay premiums, either your employer pays them as part of your employment contract, or YOU pay the premiums because you work for yourself.......whoever's paid these premiums, do you not feel "ENTITLED" now to use the benfit of the insurance you've paid into when you go to the doctor, hospital, have surgery or get your prescriptions?

It appears that a large number of people would rather 'shoot themselves in the foot' than actually, REALLY, understand the benfits that could be gained by America adding an alternate, 'social' medical system (on TOP of your private one if that's what you want to do instead). The point is, choice. People CAN then stick with their old traditional favorites, believe what was a truth 100 years ago and live by that now, OR have the new up-to-date choice of another path.

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dontlikeliver
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quote:
Originally posted by ugagal:
Luvs2ride you are 100% correct! My wise grandfather always told me "If it looks too good to be true...then it probably is." I'm afraid there is going to be a very large group of Americans who will be greatly disappointed in the "FREE" government insurance.

Also, I was not raised to believe I was entitled to anything in this ole life and if I wanted better then I would have to work for it. Whatever happened to that belief?

Yes, but to REALLY understand something, usually one has to do more than LOOK or read or listen to someone else's opinion, which these days whatever you read is someone else's opinion, and if it's in the press or news it usually focusses on any NEGATIVE experience or aspects and ignores the positive.......so, naturally the 'masses' take someone else's second or third hand experience as a truth that is going to apply to all from here on out.

I know it's not possible, but the only way to really be able to know and weigh up these things is to try the different options. Most Americans won't or are not in a position to go galavanting around the world and gain access to sample their different systems. Most of my OWN family in America do not have passports and don't care to know about, or visit, nations and systems outside the only one they know, or THINK they know because why should they - they KNOW all they need to know from the comfort of their own armchair, watching FOX news or whatever - that's virtually as good as real experience, I suppose. Is the lack of curiosity or hunger for knowledge and experience and not 'exercising' critical thinking because of 'what'.....or because America has everything and knows how to do everything right already? If we want to keep up with the rest of the world we have to re-examine some traditions and beliefs which may not really apply any more, at least not in that they are going to bring POSITIVE CHANGE to most Americans.

Anyway, we're not going to solve the problems of the world or healthcare through Lymenet. I have the best of both worlds from where I am, so I am not sure why I'm making so much noise from here!! [Smile] I've been off Lymenet for ages and perhaps now I should crawl back into my 'hole'....

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dontlikeliver
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quote:
Originally posted by luvs2ride:
Dontlikeliver,

I love choices. But clearly you are having to come to America for your lyme treatment. Where will you go if America socializes their medicine?

Heiwalove, America is one of the most charitable countries on this earth. Absolutely, everyone is entitled to the basic needs of life and everyone who can get those needs on their own power is obligated to do so and God directed to never forget the poor, the widows and the orphans.

But when that becomes a Government Mandated practice, don't be shocked when the disabled are shuffled to the bottom of the heap. Afterall, you are a drain on society and Society must survive at the cost of some unlucky individuals. That is socialism! Hardly charitable.

LindainRhodeIsland,

I agree with you 100%. People want to say the pharmacutical companies and the insurance companies are greedy but they are in bed with the politians. Yes folks, the very same people you want to hand all our money and our healthcare choices over to.

Democrats are supposed to be for the little guy but they were the first to line up right alongside our "so called republican" president to hand a fortune over to corporations who had mismanaged and even swindled their way into the financial fiasco we are now in. Those corporations had plenty of help from our polititians both democratic and republican who paved the legislative way for them and pressured them into providing loans for people who could never pay it back. Capitalism has not been at work for a long time now, but greed has been operating without anyone to oversee and prevent it.

Right now, after so many Obama appointees have been found remiss in paying their own taxes, I would like to see an audit of every single polititian. Who else isn't paying their fair share?

You want equity and justice from our government?

GOOD LUCK!

Susan

I will still go to my LLMD in NYS. Why shouldn't I? As I live outside the US and I have the choice now as I would in the future, I will choose to carry on seeing him as a paying customer because as I do not reside full-time in the USA at the moment and am paying into the UK 'national insurance pot'; I would not be 'entitled' to use the US one at the same time.

Anyway, I think we all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done and can focus on our similarities rather than differences there. I think I've said more than my fair share and will 'bow out' here. [Smile]

Good wishes to all

DLL [Smile]

[ 03-08-2009, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: dontlikeliver ]

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Abxnomore
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Don'tlikeliver....It's a breath of fresh air

to know there are still some who go out of

their way to understand the issues, don't get them

from FOX news, and is objective and open minded

and has experienced the world. Americans for too

long have had a very narrow view or the world and

their own society. That is why our new president

is the right man at the right time. He has a cross

cultural 21st century view. Too bad he became

president and inherited the worst mess ever.


Has anyone every wondered why the U.S. and

and England are doing the worst right now with

regard to the

banking situtation and the recession...Regan and

Thatcher....same polices got them there.

The other European countries are faring much

better and they are

mostly sufferering the repercussions of

America's economic collaspe that has affected

the entire global economy. Addressing health care

is critical to getting America back on its feet,

along with the 10 million other things that need

to be fixed.

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omgwtfbbq
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quote:
Originally posted by gwenb:

2. People n Canada do not go bankrupt from paying for health care. A close friend of mine was diagnosed with late-stage cancer and received top notch care for 18 months for free (aside from the $60 health premium we pay). He is fully recovered.

People in Canada do not have a ton of illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes and would suck the health care system dry either.

The emergency rooms here are required to treat regardless of ability to pay, and it shows in the quality of care. Unless you have chest pains or come in half dead on an ambulance you WILL have to wait hours and hours because so many illegals and medicare recipients come in with colds and other BS that should not be there. They clog up the emergency room and never pay for it. I don't want to see the whole medical system in the same state. Many hospitals are closing their ERs because of this crap. If we get universal healthcare any Jose or Jesus down in Mexico that's got cancer or something serious will just cross the border and buy some papers so they can get free US medical care. They take pride in abusing the US system to their own advantage already! Yes, I know people that have had to work with and manage some of these illegals with fake papers so I'm not just making this up. Until you've seen it in person, it's hard to comprehend just how much these people WANT to screw the US and providing universal health care would be the same as bending over and handing them the lube, then telling them to have fun.

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METALLlC BLUE
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quote:

If we get universal healthcare any Jose or Jesus down in Mexico that's got cancer or something serious will just cross the border and buy some papers so they can get free US medical care.

Do you have any idea how racist and mercilessness that came off?

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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dguy
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If the US government had a good track record in social programs, that would serve to boost the argument for socialized medicine, but instead that track record is poor. It's easy to see why: sovereign immunity plus a lack of checks and balances means a government run operation comes loaded with costly waste.

Government programs that mostly benefit those in real need is a wonderful dream, but an impractically idealistic one. Instead, those who benefit the most are the fat cats who manipulate the system. As evidence we need to look no further than the billions of dollars disappearing into various bailouts right now.

We've drifted quite far from Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for you..."

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Abxnomore
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Canada had a much more liberal immigration system

than we did. I think it's tightened up since 9/11

but they have plenty of people from other

nations,

the difference is they take care of them with their

medical system so yes they are not clogging up their

ER rooms because they have medical care for everyone.

And, in the U.S. it's not only illegal

immigrants but America's POOR that are clogging up

the ER rooms. DON'T YOU KNOW THAT AMERICANS

ARE NOT COVERED AND ARE SUFFERING????

[ 03-08-2009, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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Abxnomore
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"Do you have any idea how racist and mercilessness that came off?"

It's easier to blame it on others then to try to

get our government to provide a system that works

for all Americans.

Yes, it is very racist and insensitive. They are not

our problem it's the American people who don't participate in the political process but are more

content to eat junk food and go to the mall and acquire needless material consumer items.

Well, those days are over!

[ 03-08-2009, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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METALLlC BLUE
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You're right Abxnomore. I would think people with Lyme Disease would be more compassionate to those in need, but when it comes to providing care to others, it seems they parrot the same middle class dogma. "I care about me and my family, period. Screw everyone else."

You have to understand, this current system is collapsing, it will entirely devour all of us shortly. We're at a point now where we absolutely must reform policy and stabilize the economy. So common is the fact that people who have more often take at the expense of those who have less.

Now those who have more are being asked to sacrifice to reestablish some balance so that we all don't go under. Do I like that? Absolutely not. We're all being asked to tighten our belts even more -- especially the upper and middle class, and while the poorer get poorer and everyone gets sicker from chronic illness and lack of preventative care -- the burden on an already overwhelmed and dysfunctional system is snapping beneath the pressure. You think this is Generation X and Y's fault? Remember that huge ruckus about the Baby Boomer generation entering the Medical System?

If you wonder why most of us young people were protesting Iraq, and a vast array of other things that President Bush was doing, you're now seeing why. All this money we've spent -- 2-3 trillian dollars plus, paying for needless war, and helping enormous corporations who abandoned ethics to survive under the guise of "Now they're too big, and if they fall, they'll take everyone down." You don't think that's a problem? Do you know what 2-3 trillion dollars could buy? We washed it all down the drain. We could have reformed our entire medical system with the snap of a finger if we had chose to. We could have sent every highschool senior to college. Instead, what are we doing?

He's destroyed our economy indirectly and directly, and he was voted in again! With poor leadership, the followers were led astray too. Not once did I vote for that clown. Fiscal conservatism? Compassionate conservative? The propaganda and lies run so deep that the American people have consented -- willingly, to believing the manufactured machine.

You think it's an accident that these companies all went into a financial tailspin at the same time? You've got a lot to learn about economics and ethics if you don't think this was blatant capitalism in overdrive. Our environment is being destroyed to increase profit, our jobs are being outsourced, we're hiring children in third world countries to make our nike's for christ sakes. You don't think that's a problem?

This is what happens when loopholes are exploited and government officials (Bush administration) encourage corruption and artificially inflate fear to incite consent of criminal acts. We "allowed" ourselves to collectively be duped, and now most of you are still singing about how you've worked for everything you have, and how you're the one in control of your fate? You've been duped too. You know why you're still sick with Lyme Disease? The same reason our economy and world is being destroyed. For a profit at your expense.

Its not freedom when you have to work 3 jobs only to be incapable of paying for the very goods you're producing or serving -- when you pay for insurance premiums more than your mortgage only to be told "Sorry, it's not covered under your policy" when you need help the most.

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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Abxnomore
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omgwtfbbq What about all the Americans who went to Mexico and Canada to by cheap medications, all U.S.

made before our dollar crashed. And how many of those people were people with Lyme disease? A lot of them and I was one of them!

That benefited us, so I guess that's OK???

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METALLlC BLUE
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Another great point Abxnomore. The evidence is overwhelming. We're the problem. We started this mess, we took the bait, we're the fuse and the ammunition.

Jon Foreman writes:

When success is equated with excess
The ambition for excess wrecks us
As top of the mind becomes the bottom line
When success is equated with excess

If your time ain't been nothing but money
I start to feel really bad for you honey
Maybe honey put your money where your mouth's been running
If your time ain't been nothing but money

I want out of this machine
It doesn't feel like freedom

This ain't my American dream
I want to live and die for bigger things
I'm tired of fighting for just me
This ain't my American dream

When success is equated with excess
When we're fighting for the beamer, or lexus
As the heart and soul breaths in the company goals
Where success is equated with excess

Cause baby's always talkin 'bout a ring
And talk has always been the cheapest thing
Is it true would you do what I want you to
If I show up with the right amount of bling?

Like a puppet on a monetary string
Maybe we've been caught singing
Red, white, blue, and ...........green
But that ain't my America,
That ain't my American dream

I love America, but we're just a shadow of ourselves. We're a chronic world and social revolution that doesn't seem to have the will to see beyond our own short sighted bank accounts and personal problems.

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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Abxnomore
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This has been in the making for 30 years, since Regan was elected, partners with Thatcher. The nations wealth has gradually been shifted upward so the top 5% benefited enormously from the tax breaks and laws

that were passed and all the economic gains were distributed upward while leaving the middle class in a position of losing real wages while having jobs continuing to be shipping overseas. Tax breaks and tax heavens for large corporations were promoted, regulatory laws were ignored and no body was, not interested in the working poor whatsoever,combined with

greed, fraud and stepping all over our constitution under the Bush administration. Trickle down economic didn't work.

It's time for some trickle up economics and the rich won't be harmed by paying a bit more in taxes if others are suffering.

We basically had corporate fascism but the average American was still in the dark thinking they still lived in the Greatest nation in the world. Sorry to inform you but it's not. We torture people an invaded Iraq without justification.

Well, we are forced to wake up now that people are losing their jobs, homes, saving, and can't access health care. Social change comes slowly but eventually things change. We are at a cross roads. Wake up. We need to follow a European model that

treats it citizens more humanely, gives job protection, health care and pensions or soon find our selves a fascist nation. Time will tell. Obama has the best chance ever to make big changes that will benefit all if the republicans would stop acting like children. It's the 21st century. A 19 century model won't work in a globalized world.

We have the greatest gap between the the rich and poor ever. And, we barely have a middle class any more. They are struggling and shrinking by the day.

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omgwtfbbq
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
omgwtfbbq What about all the Americans who went to Mexico and Canada to by cheap medications, all U.S.

I doubt those were government subsidized.

The US poor clogging emergency rooms are a problem. The difference is that they at least pay taxes, and they keep their money in the US. All the illegals I have known of have sent the majority of their paychecks back home to Mexico. It slowly kills the local economy when there are large numbers of them because of the resources used, no taxes paid, and very little money spent locally.

Notice that lots of people immigrate to Canada, BUT THEY DO IT LEGALLY and pay taxes. I have no problems with anyone from any country moving to the US and working and paying taxes, as long as they are here legally and paying taxes like the rest of us.

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Abxnomore
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Then how can they sell them so cheaply, when they are U.S. made drugs????

The problem is not the people who come here illegally, it is the government who has not enforced its immigration policy and has turned a blind eye because it benefits business because they pay less for labor and don't have to pay for any benefits. They pay in cash (which is illegal) and don't have to pay taxes to the government associated with employing employees

Complain and get active in your government, don't blame people who are doing what they can to better their lives. If our country had a sensible immigration policy and enforced it, then they would not be in this country illegally. Our government has not enforced its immigration policy in years, they have knowingly looked the other way.

The government and business like the cheap labor just like they are keen on sending our jobs abroad because they pay pennies in labor as opposed to U.S. wages and don't have to pay any benefits. The businesses who hire them are the ones to blame, not the illegal immigrants.

I worked in an industry that is build on the backs of illegal immigrant labor and while my boss never hired illegal aliens I know all too well the issues involved.

It's always easier to project hate and anger onto the wrong party then to stand up to the forces that need to be challenged. The republicans like that cheap labor, too.

It's your government that needs to be made accountable and we know damned will the last one stepped all over the constitution and ran our government like the wild, wild west, so this issue was pure folly for George Bush and his administration.

Hopefully, when Obama wades thru the mess he
has inherited the issue of a more sensible, enforceable immigration policy will be addressed, too.

[ 03-08-2009, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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luvs2ride
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Amusing to watch how all of you in support of socialized medicine have completely ignored Barrack Obama's website I posted earlier wherein he describes his new healthcare as NOT government sponsored.

You are lost in your idealistic world of perfect life.

Dream on.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Abxnomore
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I am well aware that it is not a government sponsored or so called socialized medical health care program. Did you follow the presidential campaign or did you listen to John McCain's lies? It's the republicans that have scared everyone into thinking that it will be socialized medicine by way of lies.

No one knows yet what it will be. It is being hashed out presently, beginning as of last week wherein he invited people from different sectors of the industry to discuss it. But it is possible that it just might lean more toward a universal type health care system based on what I am hearing. Many in industry know they cannot keep up with the costs associated with our current system and that it is totally broken. We have to wait and see what they kind of consensus they can get and what they can get thru congress.

Don't you know how our governmental process works. Just because he has listed what he wants doesn't mean he will get that. This isn't a dictatorship, quite yet.

You're the one who is dreaming and lacks a total understanding of our governmental process.

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nomoremuscles
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"It's easy to see why: sovereign immunity plus a lack of checks and balances means a government run operation comes loaded with costly waste."


I would agree with this, but when you look at the private insurance sector it is cushioned with enough overhead and profit to maintain giant buildings filled with tons of people, many of whom are being paid to deny benefits. And the profits are not small; they are enormous. So, in theory, if you were to take that huge chunk of money out of the equation, the profits, the cost of the whole enterprise would be that much less.

Unless, of course, people prefer to have enormous sums going into the hands of a small group of very rich people, who pay other people to say "No" to other people who are too poor to fight back, then we need to try something else.

My own insurance, a top-of-the-line private policy with all the bells and whistles (to coin a phrase), decided to stop paying for Lyme treatment after fifteen years. This was great coverage. the kind that everyone said I was lucky to have. I paid well over $800 a month, and had access to any doctor and med I wanted -- until the insurer decided otherwise. Thereupon, they sent my records to an IDSA stooge and stamped a big red DENIED on all my bills.

I don't know if a government system would work, and parts of it do scare me -- but overall, if anyone thinks that what we have now is ANY better than that which some of the scaremongers above describe, then I believe they are delusional.

PS -- Go Liver!

PPS -- This will likely be the last post in the thread, I seem to be the thread ender. Generally, once I chime in everything dies and everyone runs away.

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swachsler
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Wow. Maybe I'm naive, but I thought more people here would have had my experience and therefore be in favor of universal health care:

I became disabled by chronic illness in 1995. I got SSDI, but had to wait for Medicare.

Meanwhile, for 18 months, I paid huge monthly premiums to keep my HMO through COBRA. But my HMO wouldn't cover my doctors, prescriptions, etc.

Then I got Medicare. It payed for MDs, chiropractors, assistive equipment, etc., which was all great, but I needed prescription coverage.

Then I got on our state's Medicaid program. It covers prescriptions and personal care assistance. To have them both is terrific.

I pay $3 for 16 shots of bicillin (which would otherwise cost ~$600) and $6 for Mepron (which would otherwise cost ~ $1200), etc.

I only know how much they really cost because of my monthly letter from my Medicare prescription co. I showed one to my mom and said, "See? This is why Lyme is a political issue."

I have a friend who is disabled, was on SSI, foodstamps, medicaid, etc. The joke that's popular in my crowd was, "Up to poverty!" (Because if you reached the poverty line, that was an improvement.)

Then she got married to someone who had a good income. She got private insurance through his job and got off all public assistance.

That seemed terrific at first. Now she has practically a full-time job to deal w/her private insurance co., which doesn't pay what it should, "loses" records, "accidentally" doesn't pay for covered services, etc.

Her healthcare was so much better on Medicaid.

I don't know where this idea comes from that government-paid insurance means you can't pick your own doctor? Yes, some doctors, therapists, chiropractors, etc., don't take Mcare or Mcaid, but some do.

Some don't take various private insurances, either. IME, most doctors take Medicare, and then fewer take Medicaid. But if we all had coverage, that wouldn't be an issue.

I love Medicare and Medicaid. I wish everyone had them -- everyone on this board, and everyone else, too.

-Sharon

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luvs2ride
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So, as I said earlier,

We already have taxpayer and citizen supplied medicare, medicaid, free health clinics, veteran's medical care, red cross, salvation army and united way.

Why is anyone complaining?

As for me and where I stand politically, you all have me pegged a republican but you are all wrong again. I am a libertarian.

I have very good insurance that pays all my "standard" treatment but I mostly choose alternative care which I pay for out of pocket.

I wish to keep my income and spend it as I choose.

I like the libertarian approach to social services.

1-Let charities be the frontline and give incentives to people to be charitable. Let government be a back up to the charities.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Abxnomore
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"We already have taxpayer and citizen supplied medicare, medicaid, free health clinics, veteran's medical care, red cross, salvation army and united way. Why is anyone complaining?'

PLEASE GET A REALITY CHECK. You have to be disabled or 65 to get medicare and it covers 80% of your medical costs. You still have to take out a separate gap policy to cover the 20% it doesn't cover and that includes hospitalization costs, which can put you in the poor house so it's not really optional and in NY that policy costs $3,200 a year for one person. While the drug plan is helpful, you pay for it and it's not good coverage, many meds are exempt and some are still very expensive with coverage and when you reach 2,500 in costs there is a doughnut hole and your coverage is cut off until you reach some other higher figure (I forgot the amount) and you pay for all your meds out of pocket. It is not great prescription drug coverage and if your medication is not out in generic form you pay dearly.

To get Medicaid you have to be poor or go broke due to illness. Lose every thing you have worked your entire life for.

And then there are the working poor who qualify for neither program. They make hardly enough to live but too much to qualify for Medicaid.

You are clueless if you don't know how awful and how badly run free clinics are and how long the wait is primarily because they cater to the poor mostly in inner cities and nobody really cares about them. They just are not a priority. Oh, immigrants go there too.

You have to be a Veteran to go to the VA.

It's news to me that I could go to the salvation army, the red cross or the united way for medical care. What are you talking about???

So what you are saying is if you can afford a good policy great and those who can't are better off becoming disabled, going broke due to illness and losing every thing they have worked for or should join the armed services to ensure they have medical coverage or live in disaster zone and hope their community is destroyed so the salvation army and the red cross can help them? Or, just remain poor so they can have the benefit of Medicaid.

Wow, what kind of bubble do you live in? The above is not equal medical care for all. It's not what America stands for at all.

I had one of those great super polices too once upon a time, until they figured out how sick I was and how many $$$ I was costing them. Those insurance companies are in the business to make money, not make me well. Several years down the line my file got a big red stamp on it too and they made it difficult and challenged every one of my claims.

You need to get out in the real world, no wonder America has gone down the drain.

"-Let charities be the frontline and give incentives to people to be charitable. Let government be a back up to the charities."

This may sound poetic but it's hogwash and doesn't work. Sounds like George Bush's faith based initiatives.

The country is losing mass amounts of wealth and so is the global economy. Where are the charities going to get money to be the frontline helpers and why should they be anyway????? So rich people can get tax deductions??

[ 03-08-2009, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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luvs2ride
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Abxnomore,

I will try to respond kinder than you but I really am laughing pretty hard.

You just slammed all the government run insurance but yet you want more government run insurance?

Ok, whatever.

Maybe you need to go back and read Sharon's e-mail. She thinks both medicare and medicaid work very well.

And maybe you can go back and read my previous posts where you will see I suggest expanding medicaid to include those who work but have no health insurance available to them.

I'm going to assume your loss of control is simply lyme rage.

Goodnight

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Abxnomore
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I don't have Lyme rage, my dear. Your statements

often reflect a lack of empathy for the real life

situation of those from different economic strata.

Fortunately, for me I have good insurance and no

financial problems but I am more concerned

about a just society and those who have no access

to health care than what's good

for only me.

What I do know is that the hodgepodge of

medical care we offer now leave many behind, is

inadequate for most and is not cost effective.

The government is working on a new plan because

they know that, too. Hopefully, they will come up

with a plan that is better than what we have now

and will provide decent heath care for all. Until

that plan is proposed we will all have to sit

tight and hope it truly address the needs or our

country.

I am not against health care for all, or

government run programs, I was

pointing out the flaws with the programs we

currently have in that they do not cover everyone

and many are left uninsured with no help or

coverage. There is a difference in pointing out

there flaws as opposed to slamming them. They are

not perfect, but they are still better than

nothing but they do not fully address the needs

of our population. That is why we need health

care reform.

You asked why every one was complaining as we already have government run health care. We have

some government run programs that were put together thru the years not as a comprehensive

all encompassing program and they were never meant to be health care coverage for all. What

ever point you were trying to make I'm not sure, but we have good reason to complain and expect a society that provides good health care for all, not a hodgepodge mosaic of programs put together piece meal thru the years.

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heiwalove
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omgwtfwhateveryournameis, that is the most racist freaking thing i have ever read. or close to it. um, seriously, that is NOT okay and i don't think such talk should be allowed on this site.

i know other people will scream censorship but racism & xenophobia should not be tolerated on a public health support board.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/violinexplosion

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Abxnomore
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DITTO
Posts: 5187 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
heiwalove
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you also might want to investigate the deleterious effects on the 'third world' of NAFTA and other so-called free trade agreements pioneered by the US, and, oh yeah, read up on the history of the US's raping & pillaging of latin america. then you might understand why some folks across the border (and remember, the border crossed them) are so poor and desperate that they're willing to risk their lives to sneak into the US and work in deplorable conditions for much less than minimum wage.

metallic & abxnomore, you are right on. thank you for having compassion and exposing the true insanity of our current system.

(just so people know my experience with this issue -- i live in nyc and am surrounded by so-called 'illegals' every day. my neighborhood is largely latin american and i have no way of telling who has papers and who doesn't, but i feel blessed to live here and be welcomed by the community.

undocumented immigrants take jobs that no american would be caught dead working, and without their contributions our economy would collapse. sad but true. also in 2002 and 2003 i taught ESL to mostly undocumented latin american workers in brooklyn, and it was one of the most amazing and rewarding jobs i've had to date.)

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dontlikeliver
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OOps, just broke my own 'promise' to not post anything else on this thread.

Just came across this and thought I'd post it here in case anyone is interested. Interested in learning more or interested in picking apart or finding faults, whichever:

http://www.nhs.uk/Pages/homepage.aspx

And, their Lyme disease page, which obviously could use some correction!

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/lyme-disease/Pages/Introduction.aspx?url=Pages/what-is-it.aspx

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Abxnomore
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Here's a good read.......The question is in the end

what will we really get?

http://www.truthout.org/030909J

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lymeparfait
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My general observations of health in our culture today...not that I believe it's everyone, but I do believe it's the new majority. Republican and Democrat...the new America.

Americans want it all!

Americans want convenience.

Americans want what feels good.

Americans want power and control.

Americans want no pain.

Americans want wealth.

Americans want peace and no war.

Americans want the government to give them health.

Americans feel priviledged.

Americans want to feel generous without giving.

Americans want everything to be politically correct.

Americans want jobs but don't want jobs that are considered below their status.

Americans want freedom in everything no matter the cost to their neighbor.

Americans will abort fetuses to get their cells to save themselves from dying too soon or so they can have sex without consequence.

Americans want what others have. Jealous, greedy, discontent, prideful.

Americans want to change things to get theses things.

Americans want to make no sacrifices.

Americans want no committments.

Americans want no morality.

Americans want to feel good no matter the cost.

Americans want to look and feel young.

Americans value youth and new thoughts over age and wisdom.

Americans want to unburden themselves with the elderly.

Americans think changing the government to accomodate these desires is best.

Just my non-political observations over the past few years.

I think this is what foreigners observe as well. Each of these things can have many examples...each is a topic in itself.

I reflect on these things when I read posts and comments ranging from lymenet to the NY Times.

Or when I watch the Academy awards, The superbowl and the ads. Its a sign of the times.

I'm an American...and I'm not saying that everyone is all of the above...nor that there is no hope.

but I don't know anyone who is not desiring some of those things, and many of us here on lymnet are looking for answers to our health and our life.

I try to catch myself from being like this. It's hard to not take in some of this in America. We are bombarded with this thinking.

I don't think Americans want to admit any of this because deep inside we know it's wrong, or will make excuses why we have the right to want this.

But when I heard the slogan, "Change", I was hoping that a call for inner change would come, ....and actually my observation is that it has been the opposite.

So I'm not expecting much...we will see and I will comment in 4 years of all the positive changes that have occured if any, althugh I do see there will be change whereever that takes our nation.

All our leaders (any party) don't get it.

We here on lymnet will not find what we are seeking in the next healthcare plan.

There is no lyme earmark attached!(only kidding)

Inner peace and contentment, and personally helping our neighbor, not the govermnent, will help us all heal. (not kidding)

Just my observations.

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AmandaM
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I don't believe we need to "work" for basic human rights. But that is just me.

Also -- ugagal -- your grandfather is very correct in his statement. Things are usually too good to be true if they seem to be too wonderful. *sigh*

--------------------
IgeneX Positive
IgM: 30 +, 31 ++, 34 +, 39 IND, 41 IND
IgG: 31 +++, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41 +++

Rocephin / Zithromax / Supps

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omgwtfbbq
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
The problem is not the people who come here illegally, it is the government who has not enforced its immigration policy and has turned a blind eye because it benefits business because they pay less for labor and don't have to pay for any benefits. They pay in cash (which is illegal) and don't have to pay taxes to the government associated with employing employees

Complain and get active in your government, don't blame people who are doing what they can to better their lives. If our country had a sensible immigration policy and enforced it, then they would not be in this country illegally. Our government has not enforced its immigration policy in years, they have knowingly looked the other way.

WTF part of ILLEGAL do you not understand?! So if I try to steal everything you have in your house to better myself you'd be ok with it too? know police officers that want to deport these people but can't because of all the red tape.

They are displacing American workers. Sad thing is I can't get too politically active and try to stop the ILLEGALS because there are enough in my area bringing the economy down I'm sure everything I own would be stolen in retaliation.

Calling me racist is the most hilarious thing I have heard in a long time. I work with people from all over the world that are here LEGALLY and enjoy interacting with them. It's the ILLEGALS and their attitude toward the country's laws that I hate. They drive around without insurance, there's more crime in areas with large populations of illegals, and I could go on and on about how they are very bad for the economy.

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Abxnomore
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I worked in an industry the is notorious for hiring

illegal aliens. Believe me they are not stealing

any one's jobs. American's don't want to do the

work they do. May now, because they are desperate

for work. Again, I say the fault is with the government that doesn't enforce it's immigration laws.

Our past administration wrote all the laws to favor business not the people and turned a blind eye toward the problem. It gave business a chance

to hire CHEAP labor, avoid paying employee related taxes and violate the law without penalty.

That is not the fault of illegals if YOUR government does not enforce it's own laws.

I"m sure in time when we slowly chip away at all the problems the Bush administration left us, immigration will be tackled, too, by the new administration.

Whichever way you look at it your wording was extremely insensitive. You could have been more tactful and diplomatic in trying to get your point across. It sounds terrible.

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map1131
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Sorry abxnomore, but you seem to be the one spilling hate through your messages. IMHO

I hope your man is able to do everything including making it all perfect for the rest of the world????? I truly do.

Who is going to fill those jobs that the illegals are "stealing"? Oh, yeah there are millions of Americans ready willing and able to go into the fields and pick our fruit? Sure they'd love to climb that roof in 95 degrees and shingle that roof?

I want all those to be legal and paying taxes as myself. Let's just get them registered and legal and be thankful for their ethic of hard work.

Quit blaming, pointing fingers and do something about the problem. That goes for our new president also. He's still (just heard him on the news 2 days ago) putting blame on the old administration. Get over it Obama, quit wasting time doing the blame game and fix it.

Pam

--------------------
"Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill

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omgwtfbbq
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quote:
Originally posted by map1131:
Sure they'd love to climb that roof in 95 degrees and shingle that roof?

I have seen MANY highly skilled construction workers lose their jobs because they couldn't compete price wise with contractors that used illegal workers. The average idiot doesn't know enough about home repair to realize the truly ****ty job the unskilled illegals are doing and how it will eventually harm their home. If you hire a contractor that uses large amounts of day laborers you NEED to be there watching the process constantly to ensure the work done is at minimum up to building code. So yes, I know of many people that'd be up on a hot roof, framing, running wires, etc. if they could but most people would rather pay less now and a LOT more later to fix it. If you don't have a large unskilled workforce chances are that over half your work as a contractor will be fixing the crap the other people left behind. Now that the POS McMansions are no longer selling hopefully the illegals will go back where they came from for lack of work. I WOULD NOT buy a home built in the last 10 years unless it was built by a a small luxury home builder or the homeowner and I could inspect it extensively.
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groovy2
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Hi All

Watch this PBS program --Sick Around the World--

It is Very Good -- they show how mwdical systems
in 5 different countries work--

On the PBS page --click on the words
--Watch full program Online-- (in yellow type)

--Jay--

Click here to watch Video --

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Abxnomore
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Clearly you don't get it. If companies didn't hire them illegally, in essence breaking the law, for cheap labor and the government enforced the immigration laws we would not have this problem.

If there were than a labor storage in certain areas, we could use properly documented legal immigrants to fill the vacancies.

So it is not the fault of the illegals, it is the fault of your fellow man who knowingly hires them illegally and your government who has for years turned a blind eye knowing there has been a problem and did nothing about it.

Now just tell me how that is spilling hate????

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nomoremuscles
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omgwtfbbq said:


"I have seen MANY highly skilled construction workers lose their jobs because they couldn't compete price wise with contractors that used illegal workers. The average idiot doesn't know enough about home repair to realize the truly ****ty job the unskilled illegals are doing and how it will eventually harm their home. If you hire a contractor that uses large amounts of day laborers you NEED to be there watching the process constantly to ensure the work done is at minimum up to building code. So yes, I know of many people that'd be up on a hot roof, framing, running wires, etc. if they could but most people would rather pay less now and a LOT more later to fix it. If you don't have a large unskilled workforce chances are that over half your work as a contractor will be fixing the crap the other people left behind. Now that the POS McMansions are no longer selling hopefully the illegals will go back where they came from for lack of work. I WOULD NOT buy a home built in the last 10 years unless it was built by a a small luxury home builder or the homeowner and I could inspect it extensively."

Oh, were it that simple!

On one point I agree: I would not, assuming I had a nickel, buy a home built in the last ten years, hell, I'll go further and say fifteen.

But this problem is not the fault of illegals. It is true, yes, that there is ****ty work going on by people unqualified to do the trades, mostly illegals. And it is also true that builders no longer pay enough to entice American workers (assuming, that is, that Americans want to do this work). And it is also true that these trades no longer pay a living wage.

But why?

Back in the 70s-80s an average tradesman was able to earn enough to support a family on his wages, without his wife having to work. He (and I say he, because, in my experience, there were no shes in the trades at the time ... okay, there was ONE she that I knew of) was able to do this while working for a builder, or plumbing contractor, or painter, or mason, etc., and making a decent wage. He didn't have to be in business for himself. And these were small to average-sized non-union shops.

But then something happened. The unions began to crumble. And with them went the living wage. It was a gradual slide. But, in my experience, it had been the union shops that held up the wages for the others, the non-union workers, mostly doing residential construction. Over a period of years I watched the building trades fall apart, and by the early nineties, right after Reagan's reign, all the big non-union shops, in most cases family owned, were gone. After this, their employees were taking any job they could get, oftentimes for much lower pay, and benefits? --HA.

When there was no forced need to hold wages to living standard, competition became fierce. Business types entered into construction, hiring the cheapest labor they could find. So now instead of tradesmen running the show, you had 'builders' with MBAs who'd never swung a hammer in their lives. Quality workmanship went out the window. Everything was: more for less. Squeeze twenty-five nickels out of a dollar; no one is to make any money but the guy at the top. Eight hour days became twelve hour days, at less pay. The houses went up like lightening. And just like everything else in the last few decades, a handful got EXTREMELY rich while everyone else got extremely screwed. (The models of manufacturing and big box stores probably follow a similar trajectory.)

I saw one contractor after another who tried to play by the old rules get crushed. The market had changed, the customers demanded more for less, and anyone doing quality work could not compete -- quality work is expensive. So, unless you were in business for yourself, a very small operation, one man and a helper or two -- at much lower wages -- and willing to work with the tools forever, not to mention longer hours and harder, you were out. Sorry!


And because the average customer has no idea what to look for, they had no idea they were getting crap. They look at two contracts -- one of them for $25,000 less -- and see that both say granite countertops, and both say venting skylights, and both say copper gutters and leaders, and assume all is equal. When, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

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Boomerang
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Good thread. I think socialized medicine in the U.S. is going to be a disaster...... and certainly not free!
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Abxnomore
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It's never free no matter what country you live in.

In every country whether it is thru taxes or thru

a fixed cost there is always an amount charged.

But it is minimal compared to what we pay for

coverage.

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Abxnomore
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Obama is not talking about socialized medicine, never did, never campaigned on that issue.

It's AFFORDABLE health care for all but not government run.

It will be a while before the details are worked out

and we see what gets passed thru congress but IT

NEVER WAS INTENDED TO BE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE.

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kelmo
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Abxnomore...you are deluded. Obama wants government controlled everything so that Amercican can think it's getting all that Lymeparfait stated her her post (which I thought was EXCELLENT).

map, you are correct, we need to quit blaming the Bush administration for every ill this country has incurred.

If that's the case, you can blame the rise of oral STD's on Clinton.

This thread got way off track from the original intent. We have seen some horrific doctors over the course of this illness. And, I don't want the government deciding which doctor I can see, which treatment I can have, or if I'm not qualified to receive treatment because my productive time on this earth is up, anyway.

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bettyg
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i haven't followed this thread nor the replies; but noted it was about health care in usa.

i heard on the news this morning that obama is having 5 HEALTH MEETINGS IN 5 DIFFERENT STATES ONLY.


IOWA IS BLESSED TO BE MARCH 23; location to be determined! *******************************

I hope it is Des Moines and I WILL TRY TO MAKE IT THERE REPRESENTING US CHRONIC LYME AND CO-INFECTION PATIENTS!!

will update you more as i hear more on tv/radio/newspapers. [Smile] betty, iowa activist

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Abxnomore
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Nope, I am not deluded. I have followed his campaign closely and I follow politics very closely.

No one knows yet what congress will pass but as of yet no one is talking about socialized medicine, but affordable health care for all.

I guess we all have to sit tight, have a positive attitude for the good of the country, give our new president a chance to make his case after his team finishing bringing together the experts from all fields of the industry and see what they propose. Then seeking what gets thru congress is quite another matter.

To speculate that we are going to have socialized medicine that won't work is pure speculation at this point.

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Melodymaker
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So, if people have a RIGHT to medical care, drugs, food, water, etc. etc...

Does that mean they have no obligation to try and provide those things for themselves?

It seems to me that the American Way is the "opportunity" to provide these things for yourself.

I do not agree that everyone has the right to everything they need for their optimal wellbeing, without having to contribute to that.

Our system isn't perfect, but by God I sure dont' want the government deciding what treatment I can have, and whether or not I deserve to live or die. And that's what it will come to.

It's the governmental agencies that are making it so difficult for us to get proper care now. Giving them total control over the health care system would be a nightmare!

[ 03-10-2009, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Melodymaker ]

--------------------
Wishing You Showers Of Blessings!
Lyme since Fall 1983 = Diagnosed Summer 2008
IV Rocephin 7 weeks Stopped due to drug fever
Now doxycycline
"For I know the plans I have for you...plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11

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ThatColorGreen
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ummmm yea, i'm going to say absolutely not.

anyone remember when hawaii tried it out for kids? the system went bankrupt after only 6 months.

and forget about getting any type of testing done.

at least we can still get our mris and gp appmnts.

with obamas plan, good luck with that whole 'appointment making, doctor seeing' business.

and oh yea. it doesnt matter what the 'priority' is of a patient, its a wait in line system...

plus the fact that a "Basic" plan is wanting to be implimented.

We're all very educated people here on lymenet and know exactly what "basic coverage" means.

so yea.. absolutely not.

~Green~

--------------------
...trying to be the coffee bean, not the egg.

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LisaS
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i agree wtih you James!

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liesandmorelies
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I guess I am confused as I have read estensively and what President Obama is proposing is "Affordable" health care, not "free".

There is a big difference and it seems like many are throwing around the word "Free" in lieu of the word "affordable"

Can someone please direct me to where he is propsoing "Free" as opposed to "affordable"?

I have not read that anywhere, but keep hearing it here from ppl.

Thanks!

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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liesandmorelies
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Betty,

I too am excited that President Obama is visiting various states regarding the health care situation. I hope he goes to Des Moines so you can give us all a voice.

I had heard on the news that they were trying to pick states that would well represent the diversity of our country.

Hope you get a chance to go. I have relatives in Des Moines and my cousin and his wife are both doctors in Iowa and they told me they are very excited about some of the changes in the health care system that may be coming.

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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Abxnomore
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Obama NEVER campaigned on FREE health care or UNIVERSAL health care or SOCIALIZED health care or
GOVERNMENT run health care.

He talked about AFFORDABLE health care with CHOICE, not GOVERNMENT dictated and making the system more efficient and less costly, so that the people who

are uninsured or cannot afford health care can have it. Those who have it and like it he has always said are free to keep the heath care they

have if they like it. He is trying to address a very urgent need in American Society........lack

of access to health care for too so many and to make it more cost effective and work more effectively for everyone and more efficiently.

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bettyg
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liesandmore,

if your cousin hears more about this march 23 in IOWA, location unknown, as to PLACE and time this will happen, please email me!!!

this is very important to me...i want to go!

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liesandmorelies
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Betty,

I will let you know if I hear anything at all.

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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liesandmorelies
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Abxnomore,

Thanks for responding. That is exactly what I have read and followed very closely. This whole thing has been about "affordability", which the current system is not.

I think everyone can at least agree that the current system is very broken and needs major repairs. We have tried the current system for many years and it's not working. There is absolutely nothing democratic about only serving some ppl, while turning a blind eye on manny of the hard working people who are truly the backbone of this country. And, as you mentioned, noone is forcing anyone to take the new healthcare. If you are happy with what you have then keep it. I see this as competition, which is pure capitalism so why all the discord???

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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bettyg
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liesandmore,

i'm so mad!! i've been listening and reading the newspaper about next MONDAY'S HEALTH thing in iowa for obama.


i finally called our 1 des moines tv station and asked them; yes, they had all the info and gave me part saying to call IOWA'S GOV. CHET CULVER'S OFFICE; he's the one heading this up next monday 10-12 am at POLK COUNTY CONVENTION downtown.


the kicker! there was a lottery of tickets and it ENDED NOON TODAY! can't remember if i called newsstation at 1130 or 1230.


woman gave me cut off time but said for me to email someone else in her office IN CHARGE OF PUTTING THIS TOGETHER; so i wrote and emailed 1 page. it came back; woman didn't specify something on ending; so i called again.


it went this time and i'm waiting if i can go or not!! gosh darn it!

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liesandmorelies
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OH Betty, I am so sorry. I was really hoping that you would be able to attend. You would really represent all the Lyme folks so well.

I hope you hear from them soon.... I wish I lived in Iowa and I would come pick you up and take us both there.

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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bettyg
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lies, so far; the woman hasn't returned an email to me. i also put on my email to them that i volunteered 2 months of saturdays data entering the door to door campaigning going on for the democrates; his/my party! i'll see but i'm NOT holding my breath.
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liesandmorelies
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Lets keep our fingers crossed Betty !!!

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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bettyg
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lies, i was deleting older notes today and came acrost it, so i forwarded it REQUESTING a reply that she even received it! no comments yet, but i'm NOT done trying! [Smile]
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liesandmorelies
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You are awesome Betty. You are such a go-getter!!!

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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bettyg
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lies, shall we just say bull-headed and PERSISTANT; the squeaky wheel gets greased.

earlier today i heard something about this lottery and i wasn't prepared but they said to still call a 1-800 no. for the lottery!!

how dare they after telling me i was too late for cutoff date? doesn't make sense.

off to check that site for tv station i heard it on...

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