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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » General Support » IMPORTANT VIDEO REGARDING YOUR HEALTHCARE (Page 1)

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Author Topic: IMPORTANT VIDEO REGARDING YOUR HEALTHCARE
daystar1952
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If you want to have any choice or rights at all concerning your medical treatment, you first have to know what is really being proposed.Please check out this important video

http://lymesentinel.blogspot.com/2009/09/important-video-on-healthcare-nightmare.html

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Abxnomore
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This is pure "garbage. Mark Levin, is a follower of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck........conservative right wing talk radio who want to see the President fail.

The health care plan has not even been finalized yet. No one knows all the details of it yet but what this woman is saying is PATENTLY
FALSE!


THE PRESIDENT IS SPEAKING TONIGHT. LISTEN TO HIS SPEECH AND SEE WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.

You do know that Fox News the very station that help promote these mistrusts is not even airing the President's speech tonight?

She is part of the movement to spread lies and distortions, fear and hate thru out the population. She is part of the "teabagger movement" those who have been "organized" by Dick Armey and his organization Freedom Works to disrupt town hall meetings across the country and the flow of public discourse. His organization is funded by insurance company and big Pharma money . You can read about both Army and Mccaughey below.

It's a shame so many in this country are so gullible and so many who don't take the time to learn the true facts and what's going on in this country.

http://tinyurl.com/ckbnnc

http://tinyurl.com/m2cvz2

http://tinyurl.com/ndlmnh

[ 09-10-2009, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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Renee K
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Fox news IS airing the speech, the fox entertainment channel is not because it is on Fox news

There are two views on everything and right now we are all being taken for a ride by both sides.

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Abxnomore
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There are always two sides to every story but what the woman in the video is saying is blatantly false, which ever way you want to spin it.
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daystar1952
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It is difficult to know how many different factions there are and even whether or not SOME of the different factions are planted to confuse. All I know is that the government is meshed with the corporations and that the world bankers are creating the illusion of two parties in order to divide and confuse. Different groups may have slightly different agendas but what seems to be happening is that those who control the world behind the scenes and who want world government and population control...are making sure that the people they want get into power.

Because the government is meshed with the corporations, it would not be a good idea to have complete government or rather corporate control of our healthcare. I believe Michael Moore is a shill and a tool of these world powers who plant people to led the masses into their solution for their goals. MM doesn't make sense, if you think about it.

He says the corporations are bad...well...he starts with that premise...because for the most part they are bad. This gets everyone to agree and it gets people to believe he is on our side. Because we agree with his premise...then we tend not to analyze his conclusion. This psychological tactic is often used in social control. OK now that we agree that the corporations are "bad" he offers the solution of government taking control of our healthcare.Why is no one questioning or mentioning that the corporations are now our government? It's a setup. So....I'm not even necessarily blaming obama...and even when George Bush was President, I didn't blame him either. They want us to focus on the president so that our attention will not be on the real culprits behind the scenes . The president is only a puppet.

I hope this discussion can stay in the medical section. This is one of the biggest issues that will affect the future treatment of Lyme.

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Abxnomore
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Fox news network will be airing "Dancing with the Stars". while the President will be speaking. This might be a first time in history where all the major networks have not aired a major speech of the President.

That is very disrespectful to the office of the Presidency and doesn't not serve the interests of the American people. It also speaks volumes about the agenda of certain groups in this country.

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Beautiful Disaster
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I'm glad that some people on here have sense. Fox news is soooooo disrespectful to the president. It is unbelievable the LIES that they spew out of their mouths.

It is just false. There are two sides to everything, yes. But give me a break and ppl really need to use their brain and turn off Fox news and stop listening to the crazy conservatives. I used to be a conservative, until I realized how pro war they are and so against helping the sick.

Please, don't spread that garbage here. That's ridiculous.

--------------------
---Beautiful Disaster---
IgeneX WB: IgM: 18+, 31+, 41+, 58+, IgG: 31++, 39 IND, 41++, 31kda Epitope Test: Positive
Labcorp: IgM: 23+, 41+
No LLMD due to money since Sept 2008. Was on Doxy, I.V. Rocephin (30 days), Flagyl. Also dx with Bartonella.

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Renee K
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AGAIN Fox news is carrying the speech, it is the entertainment division that is not, that is their choice, as it is the choice of the other networks to carry it or not

I for one will not watch, as I am sure many others won't either. I will bet DWTS gets great ratings and the networks have already complained about how much money they lose with each of these speeches.

Tired of hearing the same old same old and then have everyone tell me what I am supposed to think

A government run healthcare system with a panel to make decisions on my care is something I do not want no matter how many times it is presented.

I have a right to my opinion just as much as everyone else does and am tired of one side thinking they have all the answers on this very important issue.

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daystar1952
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I don't watch Fox news so I don't know what they are saying there.However.. I do think that all major media channels are owned by those in control and all channels have some sort of agenda....many times working together to confuse.I'm sure Fox news is part of all this.

What we have to look at is the issues I addressed. No one has spoken to the fact that the government is meshed with the corporations and that govt. run healthcare seems to be a ploy to gain even more control. I am all for people being healthy and getting care. I am one of those people who will sooner or later lose health insurance. We know that the CDC and other govt health agencies are not friendly towards lyme diagnosis and treatment.

In fact, it appears they are preventing curative treatment. Hilary Johnson wrote Oslwer's Web to expose the CDC's misappropriation of money designated to study CFS...which many of us think is involved with Lyme. So...Why then do we want more govt control and why on earth would we want to give them millions of dollars to study lyme?

I feel the same way about Michael Carroll's book...Lab 257. Carroll contacted me several times while he was writing the book...to see what I knew. I am in the acknowledgements...however, that doesn't stop me from questioning his main conclusions in his book.

He spoke some about biowarfare but mostly he gave examples of how slovenly and lax the caretakers were....those in charge of maintenance and security. His conclusion or solution was to have more govt control of the island. At that point there were private agencies who were hired for maintenance and security and that is who was being blamed for whatever accidental releases there were.

There is no reason why selecting companies to take care of the island could not be competitive if the original companies are not doing a good job.

I could see Carroll's solution coming as I read the book. Sure enough he advocated more govt control of the island. I went to a book signing of his in CT and sat up front. When he reiterated his solution at the book talk I raised my hand and asked him....if you think that the govt had something to do with the modification or field testing of Lyme disease then why on earth would you want such total control of the island by the govt. ("Homeland Security" is now in charge of the island.)

He said..well...that's a good question. His explanation was that the govt probably had more money so they would be able to do a better job.

Our forefathers were very worried about the government getting too much control. We have to stop thinking of our current form of govt as being some friendly loving concerned parent. It has become a big corporate war machine. I'm not saying this to frighten people but we need to look more closely and not be so trusting.

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Abxnomore
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ReneeK, I don't know how old you are but do you receive medicare if you are over 65 or if you are disabled? That is a government run program, as is the Veteran's administration health-care and what government's workers receive.

From what I hear it's pretty good and people are pretty happy with it. Not perfect, as nothing is Are you going to decline Medicare when you turn 65???

And, if you listen to the issues, no one is talking about a government run health care plan where the government tells you what kind of health care you can and cannot receive. If we get one it's an public option, with emphasis on "OPTION". They are not talking about single payer as they have in some countries in Europe, which IMO is the better way to go.

France seems to be doing pretty go with their health care and we pay the largest percentage per person than any other country and provide the worst level of care. Maybe there is a better way.

If you have private insurance, you have the bureaucrats of the insurance companies dictating what care you can receive. I guess you think that is a better option to be denied a procedure or a medication by a insurance company executive or to be dropped at their whim or if you change jobs or lose a job?

Better to listen to the real facts, many of which are not even known yet, as there are several different plans that have been worked on in the house, senate, etc. and the public has yet to get all the facts.

Hopefully tonight we will have more of them but we are still a long way from having a bill ready that is to be voted on.

I for one see health care as a right for everyone and don't particularly like seeing those without it, see people suffering when health care CEO's are making 23 million a year, actually making record profits this years....yes benefiting by denying their customers treatment and coverage. That is how they make money. That philosophy sounds wrong to me.

Nor do I like to see those who have wealth get better health care than those who have not. Is that what America stands for? I would think any one here on this site has had amble experience with medical insurance companies and not just as it relates to lyme disease.

Don't forget about all those on this site who have no medical coverage at all. That is a national disgrace.

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bettyg
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sent pm to abx asking her to edit her post with the LONG link causing this to go super wide and with instructions on how to use www.tinyurl.com
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Beautiful Disaster
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We actually have county insurance where I live (it's like a model and has been for a while(at LEAST 6 years that I know of) to see how it would work all over the country. It works beautifully. My mom has it and she was sent to the top cardiac docs and one of the top neurosurgeon for her neck condition, it is definitely not sub par care. And guess what? You could almost say that between all of the people that live in the county, it costs pennies, I forget exactly where the money comes from, like what tax or whatever, but it's really doesn't impact people's pocketbooks, trust me, and it works great.

I hope they see how good it's working and use it for other people. My mom's experience with them has been great. She kept going to the ER for her arm hurting over and over (no insurance at the time, not even the county insurance, she didn't know about it then) and they kept sending her home with a shot of Valium saying that she probably pulled a muscle.

Well it took the doctors that work at this place that all accept that certain kind of insurance plan (free if you apply for disability or on a sliding scale if you make income, you only have to pay a veryyyy small amount if you haven't applied for disability - and you don't have to HAVE disability to have it for free, just show the paper that you applied...and you can keep doing it over and over even if you get denied, to keep the cost free, like my mom, she had NO money at the time).

Anyway, it took the clinic (we call it the clinic but it's very nice) to right away get concerned because it was her left arm and they did an x ray of her heart and of her neck and found MAJOR life threatening problems with both of them. They did xrays first, then MRI's and u/s of her heart (or something, they went in through her leg to make sure the dark spot they found on the u/s wasn't a shadow of her big breast, but she had a 95% blockage in 1 artery and a 75% blockage in another. Without that insurance that ppl are bashing, I wouldn't have a mom and my son wouldn't have a his grandma that he totally, totally adores.

How could you (not you personally, really, just the whole opposing side) worry so much about your pocketbook when your tax dollars go to wars too but worry about it when it comes to helping people.....to me, by being against it, you are telling me, my whole family, that we are worthless and don't deserve to LIVE.

My son deserves a mom, he didn't do anything wrong. And my mom deserves to be alive to be there to watch her grandson grow up...and finish watching her own children grow up. We are real people and I just can't understand how someone could be FOR letting people be sick, some critically, stay sick, have no hope just because they can't afford health insurance.

Don't forget, it could be you one day. I NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS thought that my mom and dad would divorce (we can't find him now, I haven't seen him in like 5-6 years) and my mom would be without health insurance or that I would be in the position. I have to choose food over doctor appts. Rent over going to serious doc appointments. These aren't regular check ups, I have serious issues that need to be addressed and make sure it's nothing else besides Lyme, but I can't. Can't even afford the copays (It's only $30) but then it's the follow up visits, then they give you referrals to go here (then they want another follow up) and if you add it up, if I went to the doctor 2-3 times a week, that's a car payment....and I'm already 2 weeks behind on my rent. No one should have to be sick and worry how they will get well. Then the trickle down effect is ppl eventually lose their homes because they can't afford them, they are homeless, but I guess the "other side" doesn't care.....because it hasn't happened to them......YET.

I hate the words "always" and "never". You can't say, I'll "always" have health insurance and a great job or I'll "never" be in *that* position. You just never know.

Respectfully,
BD

--------------------
---Beautiful Disaster---
IgeneX WB: IgM: 18+, 31+, 41+, 58+, IgG: 31++, 39 IND, 41++, 31kda Epitope Test: Positive
Labcorp: IgM: 23+, 41+
No LLMD due to money since Sept 2008. Was on Doxy, I.V. Rocephin (30 days), Flagyl. Also dx with Bartonella.

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dmc
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Just got to Activism and read CALDA opinion on Healthcare post.

All diseases will be similar.

BY the way...the VA healthcare isn't very good. Nice enough people, but as the MDs say...hands are tied by bureaucracy.

Yes, I am in the VA healthcare system. Only IDSA guidelines, don't believe in the co-infections or even in the possibility of re-infection. Not the VA PCP but the bureaucracy's guidelines they MUST follow.

There isn't discretionary treatment allowed.

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bettyg
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abx, thx for using the tinyurl.com to get this back to normal width....
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Buster
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Healthcare reform (as of the way it looks now) will put the final nail in the coffin for lyme disease treatment.

If you think that government will just pay your lyme treatments with others tax dollars after reform, you are mislead.
Ask any LLMD what this will do to us, it will end it.

Think of it this way, the CDC, FDA, and government will all be working closely together. There will be no use for ILADS after it gets passed.

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Renee K
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ABX

I am on private insurance, not that it is any of your business, and I would choose to remain there but am afraid that option will soon be taken out of the mix.

I had an HMO I hated, now in a PPO I am very happy with. It does not pay for everything but I don't expect it to. My husband pays into the plan.

Regular Medicare pays hospitalization only, you need to pay into part B for the other care and I would rather have that be from a private company.

That is what many of you already have if you are on Medicare Advantage, medicare from a private insurance agency.

My husband and I have worked very hard for everything we have, put our kids through college without the government, paid for our house ourselves. I worked 25 Christmases in my career, many weekends and holidays,evenings and nights, missed many family events...now we see everything we have worked for slowly being taken away by the govenment and its mismanagement of anything it touches.

We are not rich by any means but learned the value of a dollar and how to save instead of spend beyond our ability. Now you want us to support more people? We already pay a great amount into Medicare and Medicaid. Our property taxes are off the wall because of this, good ole NY State gives everything to everybody except to those who work.

I would be working to this day and way beyond if it weren't for sets of guidelines missing diseases I had and that should have been caught, twice!!

Two different diseases were just too much for my body to recover from.

The government detemining what treatment I could get for Lyme would be a death sentence for me.

I do have the facts, I read for myself, what is put out there now is propaganda with a different agenda IMHO, and I have a right to that opinion.

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Abxnomore
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I don't believe I was rude to you?
"not that it is any of your business"

You and I see things from entirely different perspectives, so I don't bother to even address the rest of your post but I can assure you that that Option wont be taken out of the mix any time soon.

No one is talking about a government run socialzed medical programs. Based on the President's speech last night it looks like there will be yet additonal opportunities for the insurance companies to make yet more money off of the public.

I've worked hard through my whole life too and surely don't want to go into the poor house because the only way one get help from the government is when you have exhausted all of your assets that you have worked for all your life, unlike every other major industrialized country in the world.

Becoming ill should not lead any U.S. citizen to the poor house. The Government should provide a safety need for all of its citizens when they become ill, as other industrialized nations do.

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grandmother
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[Eek!]
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ninjaphire
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ABX

The private sector cannot compete with the government due to a some reasons.

The "Government Option" will not be regulated similar to the private companies.

Also, the government option will suck up tax money, right when the deficit is in the $Trillions.

This reform will also force all private healthcare plans to cover *everything*, which means that healthcare prices will increase dramatically, forcing people towards the government option.

Basically, the government option will destroy private healthcare insurance.

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Abxnomore
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Ninjaphire could not disagree more.

The insurance companies are the problem. They should not be in the business of making money off the sick. Heath care should not be a commodity it's a right for all.

They make their money by of denying coverage to sick people and dropping people when they become ill. The behavior of the insurance companies has been despicable.

Should insurance company CEO's be making 23 million a year, while they continue to raise our premiums and get in between my doctor and me to decide what care I should have based on what they will pay for. i don't think so.

I hope they all go out of business. We are the only industrialized nation in the world who does not provide health care for all, we pay the more than any other country and receive the worst care.

We are number 37 on the list. That is a national disgrace. In most countries it is illegal for medical insurance companies to make a profit.

Our medical system is totally broken, excludes far to many, burden industry with additional costs so that they can't be competitive in a global market and it's a national embarrassment.

Remember the issues people face with Lyme disease are different because it's a throw away political illness. We fall into a different category, than normal medical care.

Ninjaphire, please note that the insurance companies are NOT regulated. That is why we have so many problems. They are a for profit monopoly, in effect. If they were, they could not get away with all they have been able to get away up until now causing so much despair and even death to so many.

It is a public option, if it should pass with choices, and the only way people will flock to it is if they find it to serve their needs better than what they currently have. What's wrong with that?

It's not going to suck up any money. It's going to be paid for by reducing costs and waste in the way health care is delivered. Did you listen to the President speak last night? It will not contribute to the deficit.

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ninjaphire
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Everybody is in this to make money. Doctors, Nurses, Hospitals, Insurance companies.

If the medical industry wasn't profitable, then we would have many many fewer doctors, nurses, hospitals, which I think is not a good thing.

Damn straight the insurance companies are regulated. They're very heavily regulated by the states, this is one of the reasons why there is so little competition.

Btw, the WHO ranking of healthcare is highly political. It includes criteria like "inequalities in health" & "inequalities in responsiveness". By design, it's very biased towards socialized healthcare.

Let's just take Lyme. I bet we have more LLMDs spread out over the country than most other countries. This would not be possible if there was socialized healthcare.

There is not enough money to be saved by "waste" or "reducing costs". It's either going to result in increased taxes, or an increased deficit.

The president is flat out lying if he suggests otherwise.

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seekhelp
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Is this thread in the right section of the forum? [Smile]
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Abxnomore
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Good question Seekhelp. I reported it the minute it appeared. I knew it would could be a potential explosive subject. Never heard back from the moderator.

Ninjaphire, you are entitled to your opinion. I completely disagree with you and will not engage in this conversation with you any more.

I'll just add that, of course, everyone should be paid a salary but why are health care CEO's making salaries such as 23 million a year for denying people health care.

Do you really think that represents the American way. Do you think that 14,000 American losing health care a day is not a crisis and that private health insurance is going to help them?

The industry is NOT regulated because if it was they would not be able to deny people due to pre existing conditions, drop people if they become gravely ill or raise their premiums thru the roof if they are using too many services. That is exactly what the President wants to make illegal. There is no regulation in the industry.

Blue Cross/Blue Shield is available in many different states.

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emla999/Lyme
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Ninjaphire, I agree.

Although, I would like to add the Pharmaceutical Companies to the list of those that are in it for the money.

And if I remember correctly, last night, in president Obama's speech he said that under his health care plan the pharmaceutical companies would see an increase in revenue due to the increase of new "customers".

I wonder how big of an increase in profits the pharmaceutical companies would make with millions of new customers????

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Abxnomore
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I think we have moved away from the lies that were espoused in the original post that featured the video.

That is what this post was about. Lies, lies and more lies.

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btmb03
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I'm with y'all in wondering why this post is in the Medical Questions section? Ouch - some heavy bashing going on here - time for Lou/Jenifer to moderate perhaps??
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ninjaphire
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emla999

The pharma companies will be thrown under the bus just like everyone else.
Edit: That's what happens when you feed the crocodile hoping to be eaten last.

ABX

If nobody could be kicked out due to pre-existing illness, then people would only buy insurance once they got sick. That may be cruel, but perhaps it is necessary.

Yes, the insurance system is broken. The government option will only make it worse. What we need to do is to move towards a more privatized insurance system. Insurance should be for emergencies, just like car insurance. Add a safety net for the poor, and that covers everything, I guess.

[ 09-10-2009, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: ninjaphire ]

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Abxnomore
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That's your opinion and I totally disagree with it.

The drug companies have already thrown YOU under the bus.

We pay more for drugs made by American companies than in other countries because they pay huge amounts of money to get members of congress elected. That's why we can't negotiate with them for lower rates, as was done for the VA but was

rejected for Medicare part D, the most ridiculous drug plan passed for our seniors. If Medicare is buying drugs in bulk they should be able to negotiate group/bulk prices and that was written out of the bill because of pressure from lobbyists working for big Pharma.

Big Pharma doesn't give a damn about you, trust me.

Wow, that's some societal view you have. Treat people like cars? Don't give them any preventative care and only when they are too sick their emergency insurance kicks in. That sounds very generous and humane. They have better insurance policies for animals than the one you recommended.

How come no other major industrialized country in the world operates the way you just mentioned? They actually provide health care for everyone. My does that sound horrible!

Maybe if our citizens didn't have to go bankrupt to afford medical care, we wouldn't need a safely net for the poor.

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bettyg
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fyi, loub, moderator is off board until 9-20; report things to jenifer only ...

read lou b's post in SUPPORT ....

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:

Wow, that's some societal view you have. Treat people like cars? Don't give them any preventative care and only when they are too sick their emergency insurance kicks in. That sounds very generous and humane. They have better insurance policies for animals than the one you recommended.

How come no other major industrialized country in the world operates the way you just mentioned? They actually provide health care for everyone. My does that sound horrible!

Maybe if our citizens didn't have to go bankrupt to afford medical care, we wouldn't need a safely net for the poor.

Don't you perform oil changes on your car ?
Don't you replace the tires on your car when they get worn ?
Insurance doesn't pay for it right ?

Why should insurance pay for a yearly checkup which everyone does anyway ? Basically you're giving them money, and they're giving it back to you. That's futile.

Everything should be your responsibility until a certain amount, then insurance will take over.
Naturally, your pay should increase by the saved insurance premium. I don't know about you, but it would sure be useful for me to get that money in hand in preference to getting insurance.

Food, and housing are basic needs too. Do we have food insurance ? We have food stamps for the poor instead. Do we have housing insurance ? We have housing assistance instead.

Btw, did you hear about the horror stories coming from the NHS in the UK ? or from Canada? You don't want Government run healthcare in the US

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nellypointis
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quote:
Btw, did you hear about the horror stories coming from the NHS in the UK ? or from Canada? You don't want Government run healthcare in the US
I have heard far WORSE horror stories of people in the USA having to choose btwn having Mum operated for her cancer or keeping the house!!!!

quote:
Food, and housing are basic needs too. Do we have food insurance ? We have food stamps for the poor instead. Do we have housing insurance ? We have housing assistance instead.
We here in France, have all of this AS WELL AS universal health insurance! and we even have unemployment benefits that give us something like 70% of our previous salary for usually several years if we don't find another job.

America's present (lack of) health and (lack of) social protection system is the major reason why I have always refused to relocate there in spite of higher salaries being offered.

I sincerely hope that our present French government doesn't succeed in dismantling our social system altogether.

Nelly

[ 09-11-2009, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: nellypointis ]

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Buster
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If something is a 'Right", then it is free and cost no one else anything.

Read our Constitution. There are other ways to lower costs of healthcare instead of the bills they are writing right now.

If you check the real facts, Government is actually the one responsible for helping drive up healthcare costs and longer wait times.

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Abxnomore
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"Btw, did you hear about the horror stories coming from the NHS in the UK ? or from Canada? You don't want Government run health care in the US"

Obviously you have never lived in a foreign country and have been fully indoctrinated in the politics of fear and hate promoted by the ultra right wing of this country. Just like every thing in the video that was posted is totally false the lies that the far right has spread to scare people and promote division and hate and false information are equally so.

It's one thing to have a difference of opinion, quite another to be misinformed by the hatemongers of this society, right wing talk radio and some of it's congressional following who have helped spread these lies in an effort not only to bring down the President but to hinder the progress of this nation when we are at such a critical point in our history and so many people urgently need help. America needs to move forward into the 21st century and follow the example of other countries to be competitive in the global market and finally provide affordable health care for all. It's a stain on our moral compass as a society that we don't provide for our citizens as most of the European nations do and many in South American who happen to provide excellent health care at a fraction of the cost that we do.

If you are still under the illusion that American provides the best health care in the world or is the best country in the world think again. Those days are long gone. We lag in every area, health care, education, societal protections and the list goes on. And the reason we can't move ahead is because we have such a polarized nation, some of whom want to take the country backward. Half the population still cannot accept that we have a black President and that hate was evidenced and promoted at those disgusting and shameful town hall meetings where the exchange of ideas was halted by those organized by the Ultra right wing, Dick Armey and his Freedom Works organization, for the specific purpose to shout down public discourse..... yes stop the flow of ideas.

I'm sorry to say that you have your facts wrong. Ninjaphire your view of government and society is far too simplistic. There are no horror stories coming out of Canada or the UK only the lies promoted by the ultra far right and conservative talk radio who want to scare the America public for their own selfish agenda. People surveyed in Canada would not want to trade their insurance for ours.

Most Europeans citizens look at the way our heath care system is run in total dismay that a nation such as ours allows it citizenship to lose every thing they have worked for their entire life because of an illness or the illness of an elderly parent. That does not happen in nations where they have universal coverage, they have social safety nets that protect them and that is duty of a good government, IMO. Sorry we are not living in the wild, wild west any more. It's the 21st century.

Buster your logic doesn't add up.

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daystar1952
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I am sorry to have caused any stress on the forum here.My intention wasn't to cause arguements. The main point I would like people to look at and try to decipher a bit more...is this.....


I need to do some more research but so far it has come to my attention that past CEOs of health related corporations have been and are appointed to government positions. Drug companies, insurance companies...etc also support presidential campaigns. Again...the corporations are becoming very intertwined with the government. THIS is one of the main points we need to look at.

If we think that having government control of our healthcare will get rid of the corporate influence...well...that would be impossible with the way our governmment has evolved.

Our government currently appears to be a corporate entity.The issue here that I am worried about is not having to pay more to help others but the issue that I am most concerned about is what the quality of care would end up being. Would we have any freedoms or choice left? Would the doctors all be trained under the same umbrella? Would there be any independant thinkers left to treat us?

Would anyone know how to go about researching into government officials and their past and or present affiliations with corporations? I wish there was an easy list somewhere.

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Abxnomore
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Daystar what you are talking about has been going on for over 40 years. probably more. It's called corporate fascism. The corporations control America for their own needs and greed. Why do you thing we had the failure of wall street and the banks. They were not working in the interest of the American public. They were totally unregulated, regulations that were gradually lifted beginning with Regan and things finally crash. That's a simplistic version in a nutshell.

The video you posted is full of lies and represents the view on the ultra right who has been trying to divide this country and promote false information. It's pure rubbish.

That is mostly why the President spoke on Wednesday, to try to correct all that misinformation.

Obama's administration is trying to correct the very thing you are concerned with. It's impossible to fully fix, as corporations have been entrenched in government for decades and part of the reason he has resistance within his own party. Forget about the republicans, the are not on board about anything. They want to see him fail so they can get back in power. They don't care if the country suffers in the meantime. The have already checked out, just want to put obstacles in the way.

The whole idea of the public option is to have choice for the public and bring in some competition because the insurance companies have acted like monopolies and it will bring down costs. Most of the blue dog democrats and congressional leaders, Republicans alike, get huge campaign donations from insurance and drug companies and every industry. It's a big problem and causing huge problems in getting a health the care bill passed because they don't want to risk losing those $$$.

The public option will not be a government run program as is done in Europe. We don't even know all the facts yet. It's still being worked out, there are many bills on the table and the public option may not even pass because many of the blue dog democrats don't want to loss the big donations they get from big pharma and the insurance industry and the Republican won't vote for the health care bill just as not one Republican voted for the stimulus package. They are the party of no. Rather see the country continue to fall apart then comprise.

The only thing that will truly clean up the government is to pass campaign finance reform but at least Obama has made a commitment to try to change the environment in Washington as best as he can given what he has to work with.

If you want to know the answer to your questions, become a informed citizen and follow what is going on in your government, another thing that few Americans do. They only come out to scream, not knowing all the facts, when they hear something they don't like. Such as there will be death panels. Totally ridiculous and false.

[ 09-11-2009, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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daystar1952
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I'm trying to become informed...that is why I want to find out more about what is going on in our govt....as you mentioned. We need to research into the corporate government connections. That's my point.

We need to look carefully at what the president proposes and try to discern if he is telling the truth. Everyone knows that politicians can exaggerate or skirt the truth...including the one who did the video above. This isn't to attack Obama...because they are all basically backed by the same world bankers. We need to look at the underlying structure and get to the root of the problem.

One signer of the Declaration of Independence (Dr. Benjamin Rush), who was also George Washington's physician, predicted the following. "Unless we put medical freedom into The Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship."

Dr. Rush is speaking of the government. I would like to somehow see medical care transferred to more local control....divided up into smaller units. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished tho. The bigger government gets, the more control it has.

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Abxnomore
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Smaller units might be similar to these coops that are being thrown around. I don't think they will work. The idea behind putting everyone in one pool, such as the VA does or Medicare is that you have lots of people and premiums in one pot and it gives leverage to negotiate, as unions do. That's why the VA can negotiate with the drug companies for lower bulk prices on drugs.

Medicare can't, because it was written out of the bill and Medicare part D is a disaster anyway.

I'm not sure this is the right place to become informed. It's the job of every citizen to pay attention to what the President and your government is doing. If you want to get informed you have to listen to all sides of the issues, and not just listen to what you hear on the local news. Read the blogs, listen to talk radio. Air America progressive talk radio. Listen to Tom Hartman, he digs up all the facts, go on to Huffington Post, and on the bottom there is the list of all the blogs and websites.

In this day and age, you have to dig for the truth, you don't get it by listening to the local news or reading your local newspaper. Also there are many good books that have been written and documentary films.

Government does not always have to be your enemy.

It can do good things and has: it passed social security, Medicare for seniors many good things.

It was Regan who promoted this idea that government is your enemy. "Government
is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem." I disagree and know it doesn't have to be that way.

The founding father's were certainly wise men but we are living in the 21st century now. Ideas and attitudes do change, as do the needs of the country. We need health care reform and a system that covers all Americans, plain an simple.

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Truthfinder
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Wish I could watch online videos.

The lies are coming right out of the White House.... and I might add, this isn't anything entirely new. So, we all have to realize that no 'source' will present you with the whole truth.

For heaven's sake, LISTEN to FOX News. You'll never get the 'rest of the story' on any other network. Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity - sometimes they go overboard with their analyses, but at least they rely on other sources of information other than the bought-and-paid-for mainstream pundits and so-called journalists.

But more importantly, THINK and LISTEN for yourself. For example:

In Obama's speech the other night, he assured everyone that this health care reform Bill would make sure that NO insurance company could ever deny you coverage because you have a pre-existing condition. Of course he got a standing ovation from the Dems in Congress on that one. But note what he DID NOT SAY.

The way it was worded, it did not guarantee that your insurance company had to COVER anything related to that pre-existing condition, only that they couldn't deny you an insurance policy.

Furthermore, I've not heard anything that limits what an insurance company can charge you for premiums if they consider you `high risk' (if you have a pre-existing condition). So, what good does it do to guarantee that you can get a health care policy if you cannot afford the premiums?

Until ALL questions like this are answered, our representatives would be fools to vote `yes'. There are far more questions than answers.

THINK. READ. And most important, LISTEN and ASK QUESTIONS.

And EXCUSE ME, but Social Security (and Medicare is part of that) was intended to be set up as a trust - an account that workers paid into for retirement. It was never intended as a tax - it was a deduction much like for pension funds. This `trust' fund was NEVER to be touched. But the liberals who controlled congress back during Lyndon Johnson's administration decided to rob Social Security and put the money in the `general fund' - taking money that DID NOT belong to them. Had they kept their `spend-now-worry-about-it-later' hands off it, we wouldn't be in this pickle with SS and Medicare.

Please note that there is absolutely NOTHING in the current House Bill that will lower the cost of healthcare, except that the government will try to implement `price fixing' at the consumer level. Great. That should certainly encourage more people to become nurses and docs. It will create absolute chaos in the industry. Why does this plan start at the BOTTOM, instead of at the top? Why haven't we spent a few measly $millions to find out what the real culprits are that drive medical costs into the stratosphere so appropriate legislation can deal with it accordingly?

There's nothing in the current Bill to curb or prevent all the outrageous salaries, `perks', and `marketing costs' and outlandish awards in court cases that are at the root of the problem. Nothing. Remember trickle-down economics.

This medical reform proposal is a huge sham, just like the stimulus package. It cannot fund itself, and we taxpayers cannot afford to fund it. Simple economics, people.

If they want to make healthcare a `right', then the entire industry has to be reconfigured as `non-profit' or `limited profit'. It cannot work otherwise.

And if I hear one more politician refer to the USA as a `wealthy nation', I think I shall start screaming. We are BROKE, people! Doesn't anybody get that? At least 75% of Americans don't own their own homes, their cars, their big toys - the bank does. That's not wealth - that's debt. And the bubble is bursting. We cannot be an economy based on borrowing and consuming.

And as for Lyme treatment? If you think things are bad now, just wait! The IDSA guidelines will be the final word (because it's the cheapest) and that will be that. If you want to see an LLMD, you'll still have to pay for it yourself, and you may have to go to Mexico to do it. I don't know how `outside the box' physicians are going to fare under the new system. (As Buster was saying.)

Oh, I've GOT to stop talking. I wish this dang thread was in General. This is such a personal issue for ALL of us. [cussing]

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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Buster
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:


Buster your logic doesn't add up.

Tell me why, I want to know.
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grandmother
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The best way to find the truth is to LISTEN, with an open mind, to the guy who disagrees with you.

You learn nothing by reading only the people who agree with you.

Bashing teaches nothing.

Getting your news from tv or newspapers is one way to learn nothing.

[ 09-12-2009, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: grandmother ]

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lymielauren28
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First of all, you will never see anything clearly until you get out of the democrat v. republican box. This was created to divide the American people and this is a perfect example of how well it works. In big government there is no such thing. They all work together for the same agenda. The only difference is in how they accomplish it. Like the old expression, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." The "democrats" will skin it one way and the "republicans" will skin it another, but guess what? The cat is skinned just the same. Maybe not the most perfect analogy, but you get the point.

2nd of all, when will people wake up and realize that the government does not have our best interests at heart? Period. They didn't when Clinton was in office, they didn't when Bush sr. was in office, they didn't when Bush jr. was in office and they don't now that Obama is in office. Like Daystar said, they are merely puppets. There is a hidden agenda to destroy this country and we have been on that road for a very long time. Watch the documentory "America Destroyed By Design". There is nothing but corruption in big government and only the most corrupt and morally bankrupt will make it to the top.

I'm not against Obama's healthcare plan because I'm a bad person and I don't want people to have access to healthcare. I'm not against his plan because I'm married to a certain political party that just want allow me to mentally embrace something proposed by "the other party".

I'm against it because the agenda here is total government takeover and control in the name of "helping the American people". It's a sham! I would love nothing more than for every single person in the world to have nothing but the best healthcare. It breaks my heart that people die because they can't afford it. And guess what? This is coming from someone who doesn't have health insurance either. I cannot afford it.

But I don't want it at the cost of my personal choice and freedom. And ultimately that is what this is all about. Same thing with Bush after 9/11. 9/11 was used as a catalyst to strip Americans of their freedoms in the name of national security. Suddenly, it was okay by most Americans to shred the constitution (and it WAS shredded. Read the Patriot Act that Bush signed after 9/11)beacuse, hey, who doesn't want national security? We all do! We all want to feel safe and secure knowing that nothing like 9/11 will ever happen again.

I think the problem now is that a lot of Americans are getting wise to the game. Big government thought that once again they could pull the wool over our eyes and gain even more control in the name of healthcare for everybody, because hey, who doesn't want everyone to have some sort of access to healthcare? Honestly, I think we all do. No one wants others to suffer and die because they can't afford it. But people are waking up and realizing that more government doesn't equate to a better country. It's quite the opposite....

--------------------
"The only way out is through"

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METALLlC BLUE
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I agree 100% with Obama. I have from the get go. I've looked over the bill and I've checked many of the facts spouted about illegals receiving care, about "government" getting between the doctor and patient etc.

It's all pure propaganda.

quote:

It's a shame so many in this country are so gullible and so many who don't take the time to learn the true facts and what's going on in this country.

You said it sister. People fear change. I voted for Obama because I knew -- based on his history and record -- that he "would" change things, just as he said he would. Now the change is happening and people are looking at each other saying "****, I didn't think he really meant it, oh why oh why did I vote for him! I'm going to lose my health care!"

Read the bill, listen to him speak, take the time to check the facts. Take your information from the horses mouth not Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reily and Mr. Wilson. By the way, Mr. Wilson apologized for his psycho behavior during Obama's speech. What he lurched out of his chair yelling about wasn't even true, the bill itself says so in plain writing. Anyone in the country unlawfully will "not" receive coverage of any type.

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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Abxnomore
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This is my last comment on this post, which does not even belong here.

Do you really think that Corporate America has your best interests at heart? The very people who have brought you cancer causing cigarettes and hid the truth for years in their files, Teflon cookware and hid the truth about the health problems associated with it, the ones who have been putting cancer causing chemical in your processed foods and who have changed the way we raise our live stock and produce food?

Take a look at this documentary and tell me how much you trust corporate America to do the right thing. http://www.foodincmovie.com/

The truth is that since Regan government and corporate American have become one and the same resulting in corporate fascism pulling the wool right over the public's eyes. Most of industry has been deregulated to benefit American's corporations to the detriment of the public.

Our current administration was voted in to try and CHANGE the old ways. It's a hard act to change and may never be accomplished but don't think that corporate America has YOUR interests at heart. Their interests are their share holders and CEO's and making profits......bottom line.

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:

Just like every thing in the video that was posted is totally false the lies that the far right has spread to scare people and promote division and hate and false information are equally so.

... most of the European nations do and many in South American who happen to provide excellent health care at a fraction of the cost that we do.

...We lag in every area, health care, education, societal protections and the list goes on. And the reason we can't move ahead is because we have such a polarized nation, some of whom want to take the country backward.

...disgusting and shameful town hall meetings where the exchange of ideas was halted by those organized by the Ultra right wing, Dick Armey and his Freedom Works organization, for the specific purpose to shout down public discourse..... yes stop the flow of ideas.

Most Europeans citizens look at the way our heath care system is run in total dismay that a nation such as ours allows it citizenship to lose every thing they have worked for their entire life because of an illness or the illness of an elderly parent. That does not happen in nations where they have universal coverage, they have social safety nets that protect them and that is duty of a good government, IMO. Sorry we are not living in the wild, wild west any more. It's the 21st century.

Buster your logic doesn't add up.

They certainly do not provide better healthcare.

The Prognosis for cancer patients in best in the US. The Infant mortality statistics don't compare because babies below a certain weight are not counted as live births. You are wrong. We have the best health care, and we try the hardest.

Here's a horror story, I guarantee will not happen in the US. http://cli.gs/JvmMTM

The town hall meetings are happening because people are noticing that Obama will take them down a road they don't want to go down. This is the only way to stop ObamaCare. Politicians don't listen unless people start shouting.

Who cares what the Europeans think. Or the Canadians. We really don't care about following European standards, ever.

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by nellypointis:
I have heard far WORSE horror stories of people in the USA having to choose btwn having Mum operated for her cancer or keeping the house!!!!

In the UK, Mum would be too old and not be treated at all. In Canada, she would be low priority on a long list and either wait or come to the US to be treated.

We have social security, and good insurance in the US too. Noone is ever allowed to die in an emergency room for the lack of money in the US.

We just do things differently here in the US. Don't let that stop you from moving here, at least for a little while.

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METALLlC BLUE
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Abx, that's exactly right. Do your homework, because no one is going to feed you the truth. They'll feed you facts, and lies, but remember their facts are usually used to obscure the truth.

They all have an agenda, even the Democrats. This is why we take history courses. If you pay attention, you'll see the process of change and of what it takes to alter things like the current Health Care and Economic situation. Historically, after a recession ends, the job market continues a downward trend in employment. As companies trim the fat and tighten their belts they gradually become "lean and mean." They can provide services with less employees and thus continue to do so to an even higher degree as the economy improves. It's not until the economy has gotten "so" much better that businesses have no choice but to hire more help again to manage the amount of customers that now have the financial resources to buy more product. Hence, a jobless recovery.

Common sense, right? If I can run a business on bare minimum overhead costs and keep even more profit you bet your *** they'll do it.

Yet, who gets blamed still as the economy heals but the jobs continue to be lost? Oh yeah, Obama. The Dow Jones for christ sakes is almost 9,500 again after crashing to almost 6,000.

Just like with your illness, do research and you'll see for yourself that it's in your best interest to support Health Care reform (With....a public option). You can't trust the "private" sector to do what's right without being held to a standard of conduct that respects the rights of the citizens who are paying for products and services from that sector. The private sector must have a motivation to go in that direction else they immediately go off on a tangent to whatever will make the most profit (Within and often without complying with the law).

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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Buster
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
This is my last comment on this post, which does not even belong here.

Do you really think that Corporate America has your best interests at heart? The very people who have brought you cancer causing cigarettes and hid the truth for years in their files, Teflon cookware and hid the truth about the health problems associated with it, the ones who have been putting cancer causing chemical in your processed foods and who have changed the way we raise our live stock and produce food?

Take a look at this documentary and tell me how much you trust corporate America to do the right thing. http://www.foodincmovie.com/

The truth is that since Regan government and corporate American have become one and the same resulting in corporate fascism pulling the wool right over the public's eyes. Most of industry has been deregulated to benefit American's corporations to the detriment of the public.

Our current administration was voted in to try and CHANGE the old ways. It's a hard act to change and may never be accomplished but don't think that corporate America has YOUR interests at heart. Their interests are their share holders and CEO's and making profits......bottom line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rls8H6MktrA&feature=related
watch and learn

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Abxnomore
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"Who cares what the Europeans think. Or the Canadians. We really don't care about following European standards, ever."

So I guess you speak for everyone on this forum.

Your statement is very telling about your points of view and your way of thinking....very narrow and not serving the greater good of this nation.

I find it very sad. That is why the glory days of America are over and every other industrialized nation is surpassing us for a long time now, China and India included. They are producing the well educated thinkers and inventors of the next generation, not the U.S.

Your stories about Canada and the UK are hog wash.
If you want to believe it go ahead. It's your right.

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Abxnomore
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Emla999/Lyme I said that since Regan and his policies of slowly deregulating industry we have have corporate fascism .....the lines of government and corporations have been blurred.

The new administration campaigned to try and change that. Read all of my text, not just the part that will support your point.

I'm familiar with the writings of that author and the issues small farmer face. Corporate agribusiness forcing out small farmers for years and ruining our food supply in the process.

[ 09-11-2009, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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lymie_in_md
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Its very simple we out spend all countries several times over but we rank 38th in the world as to how healthy our population is. That being said, the score for how healthy our society speaks volumes about the effectiveness of our health care. So, defending our existing health care system is silly!!!

Corporate run health care in this country is corrupt flat out. An insurer will deny coverage simply because they don't want to pay for it. They work within government to lobby indemnity for insuring. So can government be bribed, sure can. Is corporate held insuring for the benefit of the people or for the benefit of self profit.

Companies do not share information, so when you leave an insurer the track of your treatments is lost. Then with the new insurer you have to reregister all over again. Multiple servinging of patients in this manner is very costly. Imagine the IRS being run by 8 different companies. For managing information and using that information for better service can not exist with the current insurance based system.

We have to put public first for health period. In my mind, we are better served for a health care system that is a centrally run utility, answerable to we the people. So during the presidential elections, we vote for the administrators of health. That way we vote in office the people who are in charge of our health.

What's wrong with health in this country: its starts with us, we need to stop defending a bad health care system and start identifying what would make a good health care system.

1. Prevention should be primary in a good health care system. In this country it doesn't exist.
2. Treatment based on evendentiary based science doesn't work and can be corrupted.
3. Need centralized information on all patients. i should have a single number. In other words I should only have to enter my name once.
4. I should be able to login into my account and see every physician who ever treated me and for what reason. I should be able to see every medication I've ever been prescribed. I should be able to see the physcicians notes on my visit with their recommendations. I should be able to print the procedure that says to amputate my left leg with me. In todays medical practice they can screw up and accidently take my right leg. With the corruption of government they will soon indemnify the doctors for making mistakes.

Just my two cents

--------------------
Bob

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Abxnomore
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Your two cents is worth a million Bob. Some with with both sense and common sense and an ability to see the big picture.

METALLlC BLUE, well said. You would think with so many sick on this site they would be the first to know we need heath care reform and how they have been screwed over by their health care provided time and time again.

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METALLlC BLUE
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I also want to mention one more thing. I have Medicare and Mass Health.

Both have paid for "all" my medications. They only required authorization and gave me a hard time about two medications. Neurontin and Zithromax. They did finally allow me to use it for about 6 months in total before telling me they wouldn't cover it anymore. I wasn't seeing progress on it.

I've been given:

3 months of IM Bicillin
4 years Tetracycline
3 months Dorxy
4 Weeks IV Vancomycin
2 weeks Diflucan
3 years Biaxen and Plaquenil
3 months Malarone
3 months Mepron
2 months Factive
7 years Cortisone
5 years Lamictal
5 years Buproprion
6 months Armour Thyroid
8 years Pentasa
5 years Ativan

I could go on and on. I've been hospitalized numerous times. I've been to the E.R. numerous times. I've had Kidney Stone procedures, I've been to over 150 doctors 50 of which I saw specifically while under Medicare. They never gave me a hard time or made me pay a dime over the basic co-payment of 2-5 dollars for some meds. Eventually they paid even the co-payments for me.

Before Medicare I had Tufts and Unum Provident. Before that I was on Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Tufts fought me on a lot of things, including a procedure I had for Kidney stones (Lithotripsy). They were trying to stick me with a 10K bill because I saw a doctor who they claimed was "Out of Network even though I had the option in my contract to see him if my primary authorized it.

Unum Provident denied me continued long term disability and dropped me, citing that I wasn't really disabled. When I called a lawyer to begin legal action they threatened me by citing passages they'd taken off the internet of things I'd said. The passages were taken out of context. They basically made it appear as though I were lying about being disabled because I had some good days where I was able to go outside. What they didn't note was that I also said it was "once in a blue moon that I was able to go outside." My lawyer eventually told me that it wasn't worth it to continue. He said I was too sick and it would do damage to my health to fight a huge battle with the insurance company. He told me they would get mean and do more than just copy passages from the internet -- they would weave a tail based on my entire life by the time they were done. I dropped the case.

The only problem with Social Security and Medicare is that most people should hire a lawyer from the start to make sure everything is organized and goes thru the very first time.

Medicare > *

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
Yeah and I said that since Regan and his policies of slowly deregulating industry we have have corporate facism .....the lines of government and corporations have been blurred.

The new administration campaigned to try and change that. Read all of my text, not just the part that will support your point.

Corporations rise and fall, naturally. It is government intervention/regulation that keeps Corporations powerful. Government, on the other hand, is almost impossible to shrink.

You're replacing something bad with something worse.

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Buster
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Question:

Why should healthcare be a 'Right' (or) free?


It seems to me, some people want 'free things' while others want 'freedom'.

It seems if we made healthcare free for everyone and no one had to pay a cent. Then healthcare itself would just go away completely. I know several doctors personally, they had to pay huge costs to go to medical school, all of them had to attend 8-10 years of college and training. We can't just walk in and say, you are going to treat me for free...

It's just illogical and unfair to them.

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emla999/Lyme
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It's interesting that the documentary film Food Inc was mentioned here because an innovative farmer by the name of Joel Salatin is in that film.

And according to Mr. Salatin our government creates rules and regulations that HURT the small farmer but helps the big corporate farms.

Essentially, Mr. Salatin says that government regulations and government programs help big "corporate" farms survive. And that government regulation hurts small farmers.


Joel Salatin's blog about his trip to Washigton:

http://polyfaceyum.blogspot.com/2009/06/joels-visit-to-washington.html


Joel Salatin's everything I want to do is illegal:


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustainable-Farming/Joel-Salatin-Interview.aspx


Joel Salatin on Why Local Food Is More Expensive:

www.foodrenegade.com/guest-post-joel-salatin-on-why-local-food-is-more-expensive/


.

[ 09-11-2009, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: emla999/Lyme ]

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Abxnomore
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It's not free. In some way you pay either thru taxes or a premium but it costs less than thru the private sector if the whole nation is in one pool and everyone had the security of knowing they will not lose it if they change a job or come upon difficult circumstances.

As to what's in congress now, we don't have all the facts, they are still working on it.

Nothing is free! People should not go into medicine to make millions but because they have a passion to help sick people and take care of the sick and they don't work for free.

But our educational systems stinks too. Many countries have free or very low cost high quality universities, so that doctors don't have to pay so much in tuition. As far as the time they put in in training that comes along with the territory of the profession they choose.

Why should it be a right. Because it's the humane thing to do, a moral obligation to our fellow brethren and members of our society. We are not living in the middle ages. It's the 21st century and we are the only major industrialized country in the world that does not provide health care for all.

Why???

Even smaller countries in South American and other areas do so.

How could any one in their right mind not see this as the right and decent thing to do, especially all you family values people?

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:

I find it very sad. That is why the glory days of America are over and every other industrialized nation is surpassing us for a long time now, China and India included. They are producing the well educated thinkers and inventors of the next generation, not the U.S.

There's a reason why the US is the largest economy in the world. And it has nothing to do with following Europe's lead on anything.

The glory days are fading because the government is squeezing people dry.

India and China are developing countries. They're developing quickly because they're just grabbing low-hanging fruit. It will be a long long time before they can compete directly with the US. Infact, most Indian and Chinese inventors come to the US for higher education.

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Abxnomore
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That's you point of view. We are not competitive most of industry weighted down by the cost of health care the auto industry being the prime example. And we don't produce anything any more.

We out source everything abroad. It benefits corporations (cheap wages for their benefit) and that takes good paying jobs away from Americans.

When corporate America is held responsible to the public and the community they are in, only then will we be competitive. When they stop taking jobs abroad and stop going abroad to avoid paying taxes using offshore tax havens things may change.

That's because they have been so unregulated (thank you Regan) that they have abandoned all principles.

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METALLlC BLUE
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quote:

METALLlC BLUE, well said. You would think with so many sick on this site they would be the first to know we need heath care reform and how they have been screwed over by their health care provided time and time again.

It blows my mind to hear some of the things coming from people these days. There is such a passionate resistance on this issue all the sudden, yet 6 months ago all I heard from "everyone" was how badly we needed Health Care Reform and how Lyme Patients were being rail roaded by their private carrier who wouldn't cover their child's meds, or they went Bankrupt having to pay out of pocket because the private insurances companies wouldn't work with their LLMD.

Yet ironically, go to any LLMD who accepted Medicare and they don't give you even the slightest difficulty. So much for big bad government standing between me and my medical treatment.

It is my opinion that health care is a right in our country, just as education, public access to information, protection from crime and fire. You can't discriminate against people based on their ability to pay or not pay for medical care. Someone with money lives who has the same illness as someone who doesn't have the money who dies because they couldn't afford continued care of the same quality is wrong.

And as far as people not being turned away from Emergency rooms or dying because they couldn't get access to public assistance - you're kidding right? Haven't you heard that it's difficult for people to get public care for their "STATE" when the poverty lines are skewed. If you have one kid but make so and so amount of money, you can't get covered -- even though the job you have doesn't allow you enough resources to pay for the health insurance. Then if you have 3 kids but make the same amount, if you're married but your partner is disabled, you can't get coverage. Oh and what about if you're single and entirely entitled to coverage but you're so sick that you can't gather the strength to jump all the hoops to get the entitled care because you live alone and have no one to help you?

Millions upon millions live below the poverty line or right at the poverty line and can't afford insurance. These same people, most of them... 47 Million...of them, can't make ends meet nor have access for (whatever reason) to getting help.

Lot's of people are turned away from the Emergency room because a lot of people have problems that the Emergency rooms claim aren't emergencies -- including a lot of cases of Chronic Illness. What is worse is, why should the Hospitals have to privately swallow the costs which reduces their ability to provide the highest quality care when they do accept emergency cases of patients who don't have insurance or money?

The hospitals have to make a profit too and they're often forced to raise costs in an attempt to manage their ability to pay employees, utilities, taxes, machines, and other supplies. Many are turned away because they can't say yes even if they wanted to because of the way the health care system is currently setup.

The public is the one who should be absorbing the costs when it's the general public as a whole who benefits and uses the health care system all through their lives. How the system is setup is a whole other story, but reform is absolutely critical (Even if you don't agree with health care being a right like I do). We must reform the lawsuits, emergency care, mandatory care for preexisting conditions and variety of other things. These all HAVE to change whether you like it or not, else one day you and yours could be on the end of the **** stick if you hit a real bad patch and suddenly have to fend for yourself medically.

And this whole thing about the Government being big bad and evil and how all our lives have gone down the drain is a bunch of bull****. The quality of life of the average human being has increased substantially over the time period humans have been inhabiting the planet Earth because of our ability to "manage" ourselves thru evolving governments. Because of our evolving political government, "most" of the industrialized societies allow most citizens luxuries. Most of us can get a car, a place to live, own a COMPUTER. It might be a ****box car and a shamble shack where you pay 300 rent and a computer out of the library -- but do you know how blessed we are to have those opportunities? Yet, at the end of the day, what about medical insurance? Can't sell your luxuries when those very tools allow you to navigate the world to get to a low paying job.

People have the right to vote against Health Care Reform under Obama. Just make sure you've got all your ducks in a row before you form your conviction.

--------------------
I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.

E-mail: [email protected]

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Buster
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
It's not free. In some way you pay either thru taxes or a premium but it costs less than thru the private sector if the whole nation is in one pool and everyone had the security of knowing they will not lose it if they change a job or come upon difficult circumstances.

(((What if people just saved up their own money for when something happens to them? I think you as a person could more than likely do a better job of using 'your' money than the government does.)))

As to what's in congress now, we don't have all the facts, they are still working on it.

(((If the plan was so good, if it would help everyone, if it would cut our debt down instead of bring it up, then why is it taking so long? If it was so good and not debatable, it would pass in a very short time.)))

Nothing is free! People should not go into medicine to make millions but because they have a passion to help sick people and take care of the sick and they don't work for free.

(((Then why would people go into medical school if they knew they would not get paid more? Surgeons, doctors, radiologist, techs, ect. are all highly skilled people. People that are highly skilled are paid more because their work it harder. Why do people go to college? Because they want to, or because they want to try to increase their skills to make more money...)))


But our educational systems stinks too. Many countries have free or very low cost high quality universities, so that doctors don't have to pay so much in tuition. As far as the time they put in in training that comes along with the territory of the profession they choose.

(((And government runs our educational system. Where are these free universities that are really high in quality? If a university were free, then there would be no university.)))

Why should it be a right. Because it's the humane thing to do, a moral obligation to our fellow brethren and members of our society. We are not living in the middle ages. It's the 21st century and we are the only major industrialized country in the world that does not provide health care for all.

Why???

(((So if healthcare is a right, then that would make it free of charge to each and everyone. You have already admitted it is not free because peoples tax dollars pay for it... Even if this utopian dream were real, then I guess we should have free healthy food, everyone should have a free and healthy home to live in, everyone should have free clothing to keep them healthy in the winter. Everyone should have a safe car to drive. Where does it stop?)))

Even smaller countries in South American and other areas do so.

How could any one in their right mind not see this as the right and decent thing to do, especially all you family values people?

(((I am against free healthcare and I am in my right mind. Materials(drugs) and labor(care) have costs in any form of business. The problem I have with it is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group.

Look... I wish there was no sickness, pain, suffering, ect. I wish life was easy and full of nothing but fun everyday. But, that is not a world we live in. We have to approach these problems in an economical, sensible, reasonable, and more efficient way.

What government is doing right now is making a power grab. They want to tax, spend, and regulate, and then do it over again. I am not a democrat or conservative. I am strictly a Constitutionalist.)))



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lymie_in_md
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Many people have lost their logic on this issue. We are sooooo locked into the idea that centralized administration of anything can't work. Imagine we're in the 60's and determine to get to the moon, we decide government intervention would slow the process.

So we turn to corporations to do this. My guess, it would have taken forever because no one could consolidate enough resources with limited budget to do it. What corporations would do, is to keep pleading for money, reducing cost, don't deliver the results then go bankrupt. All the proponents would still get rich. Nasa had to be centralized, we'll say it cost 100 billion to get to the moon. If it took 100 billion and you had 8 companies vying to be first, it would cost 100 billion 8 times. So, in my estimation that is why companies would fail, they don't care about succeeding if they get paid.

Our health care isn't quite the same as NASA, but there are very similar parallels that can be drawn as far as expending resources. Medicare being one of them.

There is a common joke, in this country a corporate company was given a contract to develop a pen that would work in space. All pens are gravity based, 14 million dollars later to a company name Accenture we have a pen that works in space. Of course the Russians worked within their own community and solved the problem with a pencil. The idea is how corporations work, its not that they didn't know about the pencil, they could just bill the government more.

Corporations are about profit not public good. There are times you have to create utilities based on public good, to represent "we the people". You have to centralize your information and resources to save money. You have to create utilities that are answerable to the people and not government. Why I suggest, we the people vote for who is to manage health care and not leave it to government.

Obama is in one of the worst situations, he has all these special interests around him. The only thing he can do is negotiate the best solution for us. I truly believe he is doing the best he can. The issue isn't about what Obama is going to do, it is what we are going to do. We the people need to tell government what we want for health care. It starts by saying everyone is covered.

There is no perfect solution, but the corporate solution is soooooo flawed it has proven to be the worst solution. Why you might ask? It's sole purpose isn't about the public good and never will be!

--------------------
Bob

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
That's you point of view. We are not competitive most of industry weighted down by the cost of health care the auto industry being the prime example. And we don't produce anything any more.

We out source everything abroad. It benefits corporations (cheap wages for their benefit) and that takes good paying jobs away from Americans.

American industry is at a disadvantage due to these reasons:

Unions (GM, etc)
Higher cost of labour.
Highest Corporate taxes in the world.
Environmental restrictions are a problem for industries. Lower standards elsewhere make outsourcing cheaper.
Healthcare, but government healthcare won't change anything. what the companies pay for insurance will be paid as tax to the government instead.

So regulation is actually the problem. We need to make it easier for companies, not harder. Increased regulations = driving companies out of the country.

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Abxnomore
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You're a Republican talking point text book. There is a reason why they have finally been voted out of office.......thank god. They have set us back a good twenty years. Thanks for the deficits, the financial crisis, recession and one needless war.

Buster, maybe you and Ron Paul could take some of your followers and go into the Mohave desert for a few years and when you come back defeated we'll have to tell you that you blew it......there's no safety net for you, sorry.

Bob, how refreshing to hear a voice of reason.

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ninjaphire
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Ha!

America voted for a centrist. What they got was a leftist. They have stopped trusting Obama, only a few months into his presidency.

Watch for the big swing back, Republicans gaining a lot of seats in 2010.

*Whoops they moved the thread.

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liesandmorelies
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Buster said:
"(((I am against free healthcare and I am in my right mind. Materials(drugs) and labor(care) have costs in any form of business. The problem I have with it is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group."


The difference is that a government option is not about the bottom line or profits, therefore more of the money will actually be spent on healthcare.

The only current plans are based soley on profits. We must offer a plan that has an affordable option.

Currently the people who don't have a plan spend far more than they would if they had an affordable option, hence costing us all more money. It's not cost effective to wait until someone is seriously ill before we treat them.

Lyme patients know this all too well. It makes no sense to have people being treated through an ER when they could easily for most things get preventative care.

WE are the only industrialized nation in the world that does not have a plan for all people. Talk about wasting money.

All sides agree that this a major problem and one that needs fixing. We are going broke over this whole mess.

We are losing jobs due to this issue. People are losing their homes and everything they have worked for over this issue.

This does not happen in other modernized Countries that offer a plan for everyone.

it really boils down to a philosophical and moral difference. There are those that believe "ALL" people should have an "Affordable" option and there are those that "Don't" think that "ALL" should have that option.

So it really boils down to which side of the fence you are on.

I personally believe that we are not living in the stone ages. Just like we as a society agree we should have roads, water, electricity etc....those things are regulated.

I believe that at a minimum, that all ppl should have an affordable option. And, quite frankly, I am already being rationed in regards to what I can have and can't have in relation to my Lyme Disease and I have what many would consider good insurance. What a joke.

I think a new option(Note: the word OPTION) will drive competition too, which I would think ppl would like. Currently the Insurance Agency's, Drug Company's, and Medical Community at large charge whatever they want and we are at their mercy.

Of course this new option will not be free, but will be cheaper and save our country from ruin if we sit and do nothing. It may cost us 900Billion dollars to enact, but you have to consider the money you will re-coup and will save by adding this option, which will help significantly reduce the 900Billion we will need to spend.

I personally do not think it will be a complete wash(meaning it may cost us some money, but if we can continue spending millions daily on other things like a war, then I think we can spend some on a plan that is the right thing to do for Americans that don't have an affordable option.

Also, we will be creating healthier people, hence healthier workers, hence better educated people, hence better jobs, hence better position in the world economically. Just my opinion.

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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liesandmorelies
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ninjaphire said: posted 09-11-2009 03:31 PM
"Ha!

America voted for a centrist. What they got was a leftist. They have stopped trusting Obama, only a few months into his presidency.

Watch for the big swing back, Republicans gaining a lot of seats in 2010."

Ninjaphire,

Don't know where you came up with that one. Apparently President Obama picked up huge kudos after he gave his Congressional speech two days ago! And, also after his speech on Education the day pror.

He dismantled a lot of the lies and fabrications that were out there and pretty much every poll that I have seen shows he picked up major points from people who were wishy-washy after they watched it.

He was able to answer so many questions. Of course we should not base our decision on one speech, but he gave a heck of a speech and his ratings went way up in the last couple days.

i think people were better able to see how many lies were out there regarding his plan. What he said made sense and most who were on the fence are now on board with his plan.

Don't get me wrong, there were many that had already made up their minds that they do not want his plan to pass, but the ones on the fence or that were not sure, are now predominately supporting his plan. So I think your statement may be off base in regards to this issue.

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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Abxnomore
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HA! There is no way Obama is a leftist. If he were he would be demanding a single payer plan. May be too left for you but is far more to the right of center than to the left.

It's a certain group that want to label him a leftist for their own purposes and because many are ignorant of the facts and the distinction between the words socialist, communist and fascist. Yes there are distinctions between those terms and he is non of the above.

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lymie_in_md
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Maybe lymenet should survey its member on what they would like to see in health care. I think the results would be very interesting.

--------------------
Bob

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ninjaphire
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quote:
Originally posted by Abxnomore:
HA! There is no way Obama is a leftist. If he were he would be demanding a single payer plan. May be too left for you but is far more to the right of center than to the left.

It's a certain group that want to label him a leftist for their own purposes and because many are ignorant of the facts and the distinction between the words socialist, communist and fascist. Yes there are distinctions between those terms and he is non of the above.

He realizes that a single payer plan is politically impossible right now. That's why he's trying to get this plan through, to destroy insurance companies and lead to single payer.

I don't know what he is, but just look at his friends and "czars".

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Abxnomore
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Regan began appointing "CZARS". Are you implying
Obama is a Communist? I thought most these days preferred to depict him as Hitler.

It's truly evil to try to bring insurance reform and affordable health care to all. What is this country coming too. Soon all citizens will demand to be treated with equal respect no matter

what their ethnic background, race or color, can you image?? It's been in the law for years but it might actually become the norm all across this great country.

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ninjaphire
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I don't know what he is, or believes. You look at the people he has appointed, and tell me what he is.

I'm divided between socialist and empty-suit-with-a-golden-tongue.

I agree, it is truly evil, because it will destroy the current system and it is a mistake that will be impossible to undo.

Believe it or not, most people don't care all that much about race and color anymore. We elected a black man to be president.

What the left wants is to enforce equality of result and therefore mediocrity upon all the people. The implementation of insurance right now is already halfway to socialism. Government health-care or "Public Option" will take it all the way. We need to go in the other direction, towards a real market in healthcare.

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Abxnomore
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I was being facetious about health care for all being evil. There is nothing evil at all about it.

No, it is not true that the country has accepted the fact that we have a black President and it was well demonstrated by the disgusting behavior displayed at the town hall meetings held during the course of this summer. A little more than half of the country elected him....remember that.

We have already let the the free market system rule and it has given us the mess we have now in all aspects of our economy and the health care crisis. Do you think the health care system we have now is good and serves the best interests of our citizenship?

The public option will not bring us to socialism. It will never happen in this country but it will bring choices, more affordable health care options and put pressure on the private insurance companies to clean up its act. It's called competition.....something the free market system loves.

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ninjaphire
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You are mistaken. The town hall meetings were not about race. They are about the US spending Trillions of $, and socializing health-care in the middle of a recession.

We have been going away from the free market system for quite a few years now.

The Free Market is not operational in the case of the health-care system. It is already half socialized. I agree with you that the system is broken, but the fix needs to move us in the other direction, towards free markets.

Pardon me, but the government stepping in is *not* competition. It will become a monopoly.

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Buster
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quote:
Originally posted by liesandmorelies:
Buster said:
"(((I am against free healthcare and I am in my right mind. Materials(drugs) and labor(care) have costs in any form of business. The problem I have with it is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group."


The difference is that a government option is not about the bottom line or profits, therefore more of the money will actually be spent on healthcare.

The only current plans are based soley on profits. We must offer a plan that has an affordable option.

Currently the people who don't have a plan spend far more than they would if they had an affordable option, hence costing us all more money. It's not cost effective to wait until someone is seriously ill before we treat them.

Lyme patients know this all too well. It makes no sense to have people being treated through an ER when they could easily for most things get preventative care.

WE are the only industrialized nation in the world that does not have a plan for all people. Talk about wasting money.

All sides agree that this a major problem and one that needs fixing. We are going broke over this whole mess.

We are losing jobs due to this issue. People are losing their homes and everything they have worked for over this issue.

This does not happen in other modernized Countries that offer a plan for everyone.

it really boils down to a philosophical and moral difference. There are those that believe "ALL" people should have an "Affordable" option and there are those that "Don't" think that "ALL" should have that option.

So it really boils down to which side of the fence you are on.

I personally believe that we are not living in the stone ages. Just like we as a society agree we should have roads, water, electricity etc....those things are regulated.

I believe that at a minimum, that all ppl should have an affordable option. And, quite frankly, I am already being rationed in regards to what I can have and can't have in relation to my Lyme Disease and I have what many would consider good insurance. What a joke.

I think a new option(Note: the word OPTION) will drive competition too, which I would think ppl would like. Currently the Insurance Agency's, Drug Company's, and Medical Community at large charge whatever they want and we are at their mercy.

Of course this new option will not be free, but will be cheaper and save our country from ruin if we sit and do nothing. It may cost us 900Billion dollars to enact, but you have to consider the money you will re-coup and will save by adding this option, which will help significantly reduce the 900Billion we will need to spend.

I personally do not think it will be a complete wash(meaning it may cost us some money, but if we can continue spending millions daily on other things like a war, then I think we can spend some on a plan that is the right thing to do for Americans that don't have an affordable option.

Also, we will be creating healthier people, hence healthier workers, hence better educated people, hence better jobs, hence better position in the world economically. Just my opinion.

What we can do about cheaper healthcare is allow people to buy insurance from insurance companies outside of their state. That would make for more competition and competition always drives prices down.

We can also stop people from suing doctors for millions of dollars if they don't like their nose jobs, or if the doctor makes a mistake. I think it is a right to sue, but to sue for multi-million dollars is very wasteful and just giving lawyers fat pockets.

Also, if the government would not pander so much to the FDA, CDC, pharma companies ect. prices would also fall and drugs can come in from other companies... this would increase competition.

Look at the stats, government has created only 3% of the drugs that americans now use all the rest have been produced by private industry. Did thomas edison invent the light bulb under the government? What about all the other inventors? What inventions came out of USSR, North Vietnam, China, North Korea, ect?

I take no sides with parties. I don't vote because when voting, it is like voting for the lesser of the 2 evils for the past 100 years or more. I just don't believe in taking money from one person and giving it to another. I believe in charity, not taking. This is what government is going to do.

Not to mention even longer waiting lines and healthcare will be rationed more so than it is already.

Democracy is when 51% of the people can make laws and tell the other 49% of people what to do. It is not right... That is why we started out as a republic.

Keep the government strong enough to protect the 'natural' rights of citizens but small enough to keep government off the backs of citizens. Why do you think people came here to start a country like that and why did they spend 200 years write a Constitution?

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Abxnomore
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If you could read between the lines you would be able to tell that much of the angry and organized mobs at the town halls was about race. It was very obvious to me.
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