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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » General Support » Dr R in MO in serious trouble

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Author Topic: Dr R in MO in serious trouble
JunkYardWily
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not sure if has been talked about here but this seems like a blow to lyme treatment in the midwest.

i personally know someone with lyme who was cured by her

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/06/27/3679768/mission-hills-couple-accused-of.html

[ 07-09-2012, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JunkYardWily ]

--------------------
sick since 9-09
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Keebler
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The charges sound serious, indeed, and not really connected to lyme treatment but to office practices. I'm sure there is much more to this and whatever is going on, it's sure sad.
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poppy
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Here is what they are charged with:

"billed for physician office visits when she had ``little of no involvement'' with the patient, billed for office visits when the only patient contact was by telephone, improperly billed for consulting services and billed for intravenous services that were supposed to be supervised by a doctor when no doctor was on duty."

How many patients go to an office and see a nurse practitioner or physicians assistant instead of the doctor? This is not fraud.

Many doctors give telephone consultations. This is not fraud.

I don't know what they mean by consulting services.

And how many doctors supervise IV treatment? None. A nurse does this.

And what do they mean about the tax returns? We don't know.

This has the ring of a witch hunt to me. Why are the feds involved in this?

[ 07-08-2012, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: poppy ]

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In19944
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The Feds are involved because...well we know why. LLMD's must be over meticulous with their book keeping over any other doctors. Not saying there aren't scam LLMD's.

My current LLMD is being investigated by the state for harmful practices (long term ABX treatment) and has been audited 3 x in 10 years. It's amazing these doctors go through this to try and get people well.

Another reason no one should ever complain about their prices.

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momindeep
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This is happening to my daugter's LLMD too...he said that they seized medical records and of course you can find anything you want wrong in records...it is their ploy to get rid of our LLMD's. Dr. H got his license revoked several months ago and LLMDs are getting picked-off one by one...My daughter's doctor is fighting it, though...for his patients and for the Lyme community as a whole...and the principle of the situation, of course.

It is sickening...literally causes my stomach to turn, how evil our medical community can be.

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AuntyLynn
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Witch hunt... definitely!
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Rivendell
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What is the IDSA trying to hide? That they are wrong?

Do the insurance companies really think they will lose so much profit by treating Lyme long-term?

What about the money they lose treating patients with Lyme who go on to develop Alzheimers, MS, ALS, Parkinsons, Scizophrenia, heart problems, etc.

This is all so much more expensive.

There must be something else they are trying to hide!

[ 07-10-2012, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Rivendell ]

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In19944
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As long as there's a revolving door between pharmaceutical co's and the CDC and they are swapping executives(that are also Dr's), Dr.'s will continue to treat based on IDSA guidelines for fear of losing their jobs.

Most Dr's know lyme is/can be chronic and would treat if allowed.

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philly78
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I know several doctors who are currently being investigated and others whose offices have been shut down and NONE of them are LLMDs. Seems to me they are just cracking down on this type of thing.

If you have a phone consultation, then you are billed for a phone consultation...NOT an office visit. If you are seen by the NP, then the billing should reflect that.

Just because this doc is an LLMD, does not mean she is immune to fraud.

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When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal.

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poppy
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It always amazes me how, even though we all know LLMDs are targets, some lyme people still assume the worst when they hear these accusations. And that is all we hear, the accusations, not the defense.

How about giving those guys the benefit of the doubt, until the whole story is known?

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Keebler
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Sadly, a "defendant" is usually not allowed to discuss the case to explain what is really going on.

I do know that the IDSA has often used extreme & underhanded tactics to catch & clobber LLMDs any way they can - on unfounded charges that can be twisted. This would not be the first time at all.
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philly78
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I get amazed at how some people will defend those who are perpetrating fraud. Just sayin'.

In the past 6 months, I have seen numerous doctors offices get shut down. My sister even lost her job and the doc she worked for is facing jail time.

My point is not everything is a conspiracy.

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When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal.

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Keebler
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The point is that we do not have all the facts. The IDSA has created false charges for many LLMDs. It's happened many times.

It's important to consider this in light of the allegations as the truth unfolds.

If there is tax fraud, well, then, that should be make clearer. If not, clarity will help then, too.

At this time, though, we just can't assume the charges are fact-based. More detail is required.
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In19944
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Wow Philly, how many docs have you seen get shut down? I've seen over 80 specialists and GP's in the past 3 years. Not one has been scrutinized, investigated,shut down, or lost their job/license.

On the flip side, I've seen two different LLMD's and one is in hot water with the states medical board(she has switched over to an herbal protocol) and simple long term doxy....and the other is being investigated and might lose his license for the second time in two different states.

I also think there is a side issue with the IRS as far as being a cash/credit doctors office. They don't get why any office wouldn't automatically bill insurance like most other MD's.

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Keebler
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Philly78,

you might want to see the documentary: Under Our Skin as that details several LLMDs who have been targeted by the IDSA, unfairly.

Why LLMDs don't bill insurance? Most insurance companies will not cover LLMDs or lyme treatment. That's why.
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Keebler
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Essential for "basic lyme politics" education:
----------------------------------------

From TuTu:

Why don't LLMD's take insurance??? ( some do )

The reason .. HERE:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/2/15615?#000005

SEE "TF's" REPLY ON THE ABOVE LINK. PERFECT EXPLANATION!!!

===================

http://www.underourskin.com

Documentary: UNDER OUR SKIN

====================

www.cureunknown.com

Book: Cure Unknown
-

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JunkYardWily
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if ive learned one thing in my entire life its never trust the government.

they seem to be the ones leading the charge.

sure llmd's are capable of fraud, i just feel like the government may very well have motivation to cause drs who pursue this medicine trouble. when the government is motivated it usually gets what it wants.

--------------------
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philly78
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In the past 6 months I know of 5 docs personally. I have heard through the grapevine about several others.

Keebler...I've seen Under Our Skin. I've read Cure Unknown. I have educated myself quite thoroughly on this disease and the politics involved.

I've also met many people over the last few years who have lyme. My son and I are both in treatment. My MIL is as well and has been treating for the past 10 years. My FIL just as long.

I have several cousins who have been in and out of treatment for years. A coworker of mine just came back after several months of IV treatment.

Lyme is all around me.

I have not been denied by my insurance for any of my treatment thus far. Neither has my son nor my in laws or anyone else in my family. Not yet anyway and even if we did, it isn't like insurance companies aren't denying claims not related to lyme. They do so on a daily basis.

My earlier comments stem from the fact that I just hate when sick patients are taken advantage of and I see it happen ALL THE TIME!

It makes me sick to my stomach and just because someone is a lyme doc, that doesn't change the way I view those who are potentially committing fraud.

LLMDs are not the only docs who do not accept insurance. I've been seeing out of pocket doctors for years now. And guess what? More and more docs are opting out of insurance plans.

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When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal.

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In19944
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Philly, what other life threatening illnesses are insurance companies denying? How can anyone that's living with this disease not believe it's not a conspiracy at at least some level, seriously?

At this point, even a fraudulent (not saying that this Dr. is at all) LLMD can do more for someone with lyme than most MD's.

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chastain
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I agree that even the worst LLMD (with one exception that I personally know of) can do more than the best regular MD when it comes to helping thos eof us suffering from TBD.

Philly,I have friends who have dealt with physical and mental health issues and NONE of them were treated with the dismissal and denial from insurance companies and the mainstream medical community that I and so many that I know have been with this disease.

A friend of mine is a retired LLMD. He retired cuz of illness and lately he is feeling better but he won't practice again because of all the hassles and hell he went through just trying to serve his patients the best way he knew how.

Lyme IS a political illness. And there is a conspiracy for lack of a better term going on between pharmaceutical companies and the CDC and the IDSA. Anyone that doesn't see that is being sadly naive, in my opinion.Jess

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philly78
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Look...I work in the health care field in the ER and I have seen it all. I've seen people get denied their chemo drugs. Those who were kicked out of other ERs for not having insurance. I've seen people bleed out because medicare or their insurance company dropped them and they couldn't afford their HTN meds. I could go on and on.

I had a doctor rip up an awful looking EKG just because HE didn't order it. Then he never actually did order one and sent the guy on his way out the door and quit my job the next day. I refused to work with someone like that.

I actually ran after the guy and told him he needed to see another doc ASAP.

I'm not saying that it isn't difficult to deal with this disease. I'm not saying that people aren't denied their claims and I am not saying that lyme isn't a political illness. I believe I have addressed all of that numerous times on this board and even mentioned that I've read up on it in a post in THIS thread.

I understand all that. I'm also not saying that pharmaceutical companies don't run the industry. I actually believe they play a VERY large role in why things are the way are.

But what we experience is not unique to the lyme community although some things may be more widespread within it.

Doctors do not treat disease. They treat symptoms with drugs that have been manufactured by the pharmaceutical companies. This is true for MANY illnesses and is what they would rather have when dealing with lyme. Why "cure" a patient when you can medicate them for their symptoms for the next X amount of years? But you see...the same thing can be said for many other conditions as well.


I'll tell you what I CANNOT tolerate and it is why I responded the way I did in this thread.

That is taking advantage of sick people. Most of us with lyme are struggling with money issues and here we have a case of a doctor potentially committing fraud. Sorry but that does not fly with me.

I advocate for my patients every day and have been in numerous arguments in an attempt to advocate for their appropriate care. Maybe I am more cynical than the rest of you here because I deal with so many of these docs behind the scenes.

The doctor my sister worked for was "awesome" if you asked his patients. Little did they know what he was doing behind closed doors.

I am a skeptic by nature and IF these claims are true, then none of us should be defending this type of behavior. What good does it do the lyme community when we make excuses for such things?

It was directed at me that some people assume the worst even though lyme docs are targets. Okay. Fair enough. I DO usually assume the worst because I honestly believe that most people are selfish and greedy.

But what about those who jump right to the conclusion that this is a conspiracy? You too are jumping to conclusions based on your own experiences and biases. Are you not?

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When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal.

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philly78
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In19944 stated.....

At this point, even a fraudulent (not saying that this Dr. is at all) LLMD can do more for someone with lyme than most MD's.
------------------

Question....let's say we found out that one of our LLMDs WAS committing fraud. But at the same time, he was helping many patients get well.

Would you really be okay with that? Really? Because I would not.

It is certainly okay if others wouldn't mind this type of behavior. Not me though. I find it unacceptable.

--------------------
When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal.

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chastain
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Philly, I agree with you on several points. There are bad drs everywhere and no one should defend drs that take advantage of patients. I had one dr who was an alleged LLMD and he hurt me terribly. I know it can happen. That being said, what we experience in the lyme community is DEFINITELY unique compared to many other illnesses.

I had the top infectious disease dr of Yale New Haven Hospital tell me my postive Lyme and coinfection tests were "false positives." Would this dr have said that to a person with a positive TB or HIV test??I seriously doubt it.

I have had drs of all specialties tell me PERSONALLY that though they think I have chronic Lyme their guidelines tell them it has to be MS or lupus. They tell me to keep going and to try to get better, but their hands are tied when it comes to helping me.

I am not Jesse Ventura. I dont believe everything is a conspiracy, but the level of collusion here between the CDC and IDSA and Big Pharma cannot be denied.

Most LLMDS take great personal risk in treating us sufferers. As I said, I am friends with one who has retired. He went through HELL just trying to treat desperately sick people. He told me the stress and pain of it was overwhelming. The average infectious disease dr or cardiologist doesn't go through this.

I do respect yr opinion and think you make some salient points, but I feel strongly that this illness is uniquely dismissed by the medical community. It makes me angry and when I get well I want to advocate and help others avoid the hell that I and some friends have gone through. best wishes, jess

[ 07-10-2012, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: chastain ]

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In19944
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Philly.

I wouldn't be ok with a ripoff LLMD, but over an your avg MD? Definitely. They are criminals IMO.. ID's, Neuro's, rheumo's...all full of it. I'd rather be ripped off I guess than told "you have MS/ALS, lyme doesn't exist, take these steroids, blah,blah".

I'd also prob feel less conspiratorial if my lyme doc wasn't being harassed and my treatment was being covered. Not woe is me, just my opionion.

People like Dr. Gerberding, Former head of CDC, have created an atmosphere where doctors default to the pharm companies. She now is head of Merck vaccine div..Undeniable blatant fraud, bribery, and collusion. And we are worried about Dr. R.

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AuntyLynn
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quote:
Originally posted by chastain:
I had the top infectious disease dr of Yale New Haven Hospital tell me my postive Lyme and coinfection tests were "false positives." Would this dr have said that to a person with a positive TB or HIV test?? I seriously doubt it.

Damned Straight, Chastain!!!

I seriously doubt it too!

Take a look at what the former Attorney General of Connecticut found when he investigated the IDSA for possible "antitrust" infractions ... he said each and EVERY ONE of the IDSA Lyme Treatment Recommendation Committee had some "conflict of interest" issues.

That means that they likely cared MORE about their own personal (financial) interests, than they were interested in "public health."
That speaks VOLUMES to me!

And I wholly agree that medical schools are ONLY teaching to the pharmacoepia, and are NOT teaching "medicine" any more! But what can one expect when pharma companies are building huge laboratory facilities on college campuses? It's all about "payola"!

As for the Pharmas, the CDC, and the IDSA being in bed together - please let's NOT forget the USDA and AGRIBIZ/BIG PHARM! (Especially guys like Monsanto!) The revolving door between GMO producers and Uncle Sam's Agricultural "watch dogs" is just as incestuous! Much less cattle that are allowed to be raised standing in their own filth, while they're pumped up with antibiotics!

Just WHO is protecting WHOM here??

You know folks it all boils down to politics. The sooner we get CORPORATE money out of our elections, the sooner the Citizens will get a government that will respond to OUR needs!

You can't have a bought-off congress, and expect that anyone other than Corporate fascists will always hold the upper hand.

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chastain
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Thanks for agreeing with me Aunty. And I could not agree with In19944 more. I have seen at least 70 drs if not way more than that during the course of this miserable illness.

I would say that 95 percent of them were worthless. They were arrogant and dismissive. I would rather be with a "shady" LLMD ANY DAY of the week and get proper treatment and get my life back than continue to live this pseudo existence where I feel divorced from all of humanity.

Jess.

[ 07-10-2012, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: chastain ]

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philly78
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Point taken Chastain.

I don't think we are too far off in our thoughts about things here. I just think that this type of behavior IF the claims are true is unacceptable and I do tend to get a bit emotional about this type of thing.

If these allegations are true, then this doc is no better than the others we complain about. That is/was the point I was trying to make.

Some of the docs that dismiss lyme are just plain *******s but others are just ignorant while a majority of them have no backbone and are afraid what will happen to them if they think for themselves.

We actually had a guy come in with bells palsy and a bulls eye and all we gave him was 100mg doxy 2x day for 14 days. It TEARS me up inside that this guy was only 18 and will most likely end up getting much worse because he was improperly treated.

I have been in "fights" with the docs I work with but I can only do and say so much. These are people I would trust with my life if I was having a heart attack, stroke or some major trauma. They are good people and I consider some of them my friends.

--------------------
When faced with pain you have two choices....either quit and accept the circumstances, OR make the decision to fight with all the resources you have at your disposal.

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seibertneurolyme
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What some may not realize is that this doc is not new to lawsuits.

Pretty sure this doc has been accused of treating patients who did not have lyme -- think the test they tested positive on was the old Bowen test. Not sure if that lawsuit is over or not.

The doc involved is expensive and does treat some of the sickest patients -- often teenagers. The sickest patients must move there full time and get IV's 2 times per day 6 or maybe it is 7 days per week.

Someone with that volume of patients could easily have paperwork errors.

Have no personal experience with this doc, but the nature of their practice does make them much more vulnerable to legal action.

Hope that this gets resolved quickly and the doc can continue practicing unless there really is fraud involved.

Bea Seibert

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by seibertneurolyme:


Have no personal experience with this doc, but the nature of their practice does make them much more vulnerable to legal action.

Hope that this gets resolved quickly and the doc can continue practicing unless there really is fraud involved.


-
I've heard plenty of "stuff" over the years on this one. I never recommend her.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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poppy
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Lyme patients should never accept charges against lyme doctors at face value and it upsets me that anyone here would do this. If we can't keep an open mind, knowing what we do about the opposition, then we don't deserve to be treated at all. Basically, no lyme doctor is safe, not yours, not anyone's. They have been after Dr. J for years, in spite of the thousands of children he has helped, in spite of the fact that the state has a law protecting lyme doctors.

What does it take for this to be understood? Really, patients sit around expecting help but doing very little in return, and can't even give the doctors who help them the benefit of the doubt. It is shocking and unbelievable.

Posts: 2888 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymetoo
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If you're saying I'm "accepting the charges" you are wrong. Not sure who you were referring to. I know how the IDSA and CDC are.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 95205 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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