Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
This is an AWFUL thought!
I was researching and discovered the following case.. and got thinking.
The rabies strain this man had is found in rabid dogs in the Phillipines. He was in the Phillipines, almost a YEAR before this incident... however...
This man had NO known dog bites- which I am sure he would have noticed a dog bite from a rabid dog?
And it can't take months to develop rabies after exposure.. can it?
Anyone have ANY info on this? Opinions?
My question... could he have been bitten by a tick carrying the rabies virus since he didn't notice any dog or other animal bites?
California reported a case of rabies in a 72-year-old male resident of San Diego County during 2001.
The case was discovered retrospectively via ongoing activities associated with that state's unexplained encephalitis surveillance program.
The patient was admitted to an emergency room on Jan 24, 2001, with low-grade fever and several days of generalized weakness accompanying complaints that may have begun approximately 5 days earlier.
During his 11-day hospitalization, the patient's status deteriorated to unexplained progressive encephalopathy, decreased mental status, flaccid paralysis, respiratory failure, coma, and eventually death on February 4.
The California Viral and Rickettsial Disease Laboratory performed fluorescent antibody tests on sera that had been collected as indicated for the state's unexplained encephalitis surveillance program.
Sera collected 4 days and 1 day prior to the patient's death were each positive for rabies antibodies. No brain specimens were available for testing.
The CDC tested a throat swab from the patient by using RT-PCR and found it to be positive for rabies virus; the variant of the virus identified was consistent with those found in rabid Philippine dogs.
The patient had moved from the Philippines to San Diego in 1997 and traveled back to the Philippines for a visit between Mar 11 and May 13, 2000.
Family members reported no history of a recent known animal bite or significant animal exposure, although such a bite during his more recent visit or in the past was the most plausible explanation for the patient's infection.
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Another thought/question.
In the report it said 20 some folks got rabies.. the strain found in bats. But most of them don't remeber and didn't report being bitten by a bat! I kinda think this would be something that would be noticed. To most folks.. being bitten by a bat is a tramatic event.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..
Do bats get ticks?
COULD these folks have been bitten by ticks infected with bat rabies?
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
On Mar 31, 2002, a 28-year-old man residing in Glenn County, Calif, died of rabies. The patient's family reported that he had killed a bat in his house earlier that month. An investigation revealed a bat colony in the attic of the man's house.
On Aug 31, 2002, a 13-year-old boy residing in Franklin County, Tenn, died of rabies. The patient's parents reported that he had found a bat on the ground during the previous month and brought it home, prior to releasing it later in the nearby woods.
On Sept 28, 2002, a 20-year-old man residing in Linn County, Iowa, died of rabies. County health officials tested several dogs with which the patient had contact, including one that bit him, but found no evidence of rabies in the tested animals.e
A history of bite was indicated for only 1 of these cases, and the involved dog tested negative for rabies virus. The patients either did not notice the actual events that exposed them to rabies or judged them as too insignificant to be of any consequence with regard to the possibility of causing rabies infection and forgot about them.
Nonetheless, the most plausible explanation for the cause of these cases remains infection via bat bite.
These latest cases bring the total number of cases of rabies diagnosed in human beings in the United States since 1990 to 36. Twenty-nine of these individuals were infected with variants of the rabies virus indigenous to the United States.
Monoclonal antibody analysis and genetic sequencing indicated that 27 of these 29 (93%) persons were infected with variants of the rabies virus associated with bats.
Jill E.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9121
posted
Tincup,
I wouldn't worry about this much. It's something I had looked into long before I was bitten by a tick, because there have been several cases of rabies from bats in the Southern California areas where I have lived. I see bats in my neighborhood these days - one of the reasons I don't hang out in my backyard at night. Also because of the rodents that carry the ticks that gave me Lyme Disease.
Plus, I subscribe to several medical newsletters due to my professional and articles have been written that bat bites are so small, the person often does not feel or see the bite. I recall one medical article describing a person who had been bitten in his sleep, didn't realize it until it became full-blown rabies.
I remember when I lived in Los Angeles, one of the elementary schools was doing a field trip to go see bats. I told my friend not to allow her children to go because bat bites are can go unnoticed.
Yes, rabies has an incubation period that can take from weeks to a few months - again, I'm doing this from memory.
By the way, raccoons are one of the most common carriers of rabies (perhaps next to bats). If a raccoon ever gets into your house, make sure you get a wildlife expert to remove it. Never try to remove it yourself.
We have plenty to deal with regarding TBDs. I wouldn't worry about this issue.
Take care, Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Hey tincup
I recently did a search trying to find out about saliva and transmission(without a bite? in ticks. Very little information to be had .
So I looked into rabies. Although a virus, it can be spread without an actual bite by an animal.
It mentioned transmission threw feces by inhaling the feces: ie: bat feces in a cave for instance or threw infected soil.
You can get rabies thru saliva (without a bite) threw mucouse menbranes , (mouth,nose,eyes) threw an open cut, ect.. see link at bottom.
My rabies quest started because the information out there about tick handling is confusing because many article I read said "wear rubber gloves,disenfect the tweezors in alcohol after removel. If it isn't a saliva issue - like rabies- then why the procautions?
Now if the same apply's for rabies in saliva transmittion then why couldn't you get threw handling tick salvia as well. (if you had an open cut ect...)
I think there is some information missing here. And not just my off topic post either.
I see the connection with tick saliva and rabies. Yes one is virus and one is bacteria but who's to say that a tick can't carry both?
Sorry - there just isn't enough research out there yet.
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lymemomtooo
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Member # 5396
posted
I would suspect that since the ticks can potentilly carry so many cess pool diseases why not rabies...I think it is only fatal to mammals. (if untreated.)
So since these buggers have 3 meals, it is possible if they are in a rabies epidemic area that they picked it up along the way.
A couple of years ago a friend , who has a stray cat welcome sign out, took a bat away from one of her cats..She had the bat tested and it was positive and she had to have the shots. NOthing bit or scratched her but it was from the possible saliva contamination.
Last week our paper mentioned "some" rabid cats found in our town.. ANd I have seen a very strange looking fox in the neighborhood.. So I definitely will not be in the pool at night..Especially since my daughter has bat houses .
South Pole, here I come.
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treepatrol
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posted
From what I remmber when I use too trap. I remember reading an issues of Pa trapping mag that rabies virus is destroyed quickly by sunlight and dies rapidly when it dries up. There have been cases of people getting it by skinning and by leaning over a hole in the ground to set traps in the dark and breathing the steam coming out of the hole.
Also now this was years ago they injected live rabies virus into oppossums and they didnt catch the virus they were trying to figure out why.
Mucus membrains exposed to Rabies Virus in breath or saliva or blood you will catch it.
Now as far as a tick is concerned they maybe ? small and thin enough to let sunlight pass through them thus killing the Rabies Virus?
Also what ever catches the rabies virus only lives shortly? In general, the incubation period is inversely related to the size of the inoculum, the degree of innervation and proximity of the bite to the CNS. The incubation period is generally between 20-90 days {range: four days to several years}.
Clinical symptoms are first noted during the prodromal period, which usually lasts for two to 10 days. The symptoms are often nonspecific {general malaise, fever and fatigue} or suggest involvement of the respiratory system {sore throat, cough and shortness of breath}, gastrointestinal system {anorexia, difficulty in swallowing, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhoea} or CNS {headache, vertigo, anxiety, apprehension, irritability and nervousness}. More severe symptoms {agitation, photophobia, priapism, increased libido, insomnia, nightmares and depression} may also occur, suggesting encephalitis or psychiatric disturbances.
The acute neurological period begins with objective signs of CNS dysfunction. Furious rabies is a rapidly fatal brainstem encephalitis characterised by hydrophobia or aerophobia {fear of fresh air or draughts}, hyperactivity and fluctuating consciousness. Bizarre behaviour is a typical feature of this stage of the disease.
The disease is almost always fatal and without intensive care the patient will die within a few days. Paralytic {dumb} rabies runs a less-dramatic course but the final outcome is the same.
Rabies is a viral disease of the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord) that is almost always fatal. Rabies in humans is very rare in the United States, but rabies in animals, especially wildlife, is common in some parts of the country. The rabies virus lives in the saliva (spit), brain, and spinal cord tissue of animals and is spread when they bite or scratch. The virus can also be spread if saliva or nerve tissue touches broken skin or a mucous membrane in the mouth, nose, or eye.
The rabies virus can infect any mammal, but infection is most common among bats, skunks, fox, and raccoons. Rabies is very rare among rodents {squirrels, rats, mice, and chipmunks}. Thanks to vaccines, rabies is extremely rare among pets and farm animals.
But on the other hand
Possible role of ticks as a reservoir of rabies virus
{Article in French}
Aubert MF.
In Western Europe the fox and other carnivora are parasitized by two specific ticks. The study of host-parasite relationships and knowledge of rabies epidemiology led us to investigate for a possible part played by ticks as reservoir of rabies virus. Several hundreds of ticks (Pholeoixodes hexagonus and Pholeoixodes canisuga) were collected on wild foxes.
Ticks collected from naturally infected rabid foxes were set on healthy foxes in order to contaminate them. Ticks collected from non-rabid foxes were set on healthy foxes in order to contaminate them. Ticks collected from non-rabid foxes were inoculated with rabies virus {fox salivary glands}, and put on other healthy foxes. In all these experiments, ticks, inoculated or not, had usual feeding behaviour.
No fox was rabid following infestation by ticks inoculated or collected from rabid foxes. Specific ticks of foxes do not appear to be a passive vector nor a reservoir of rabies virus in Western Europe.
A 6-month-old, female, mixed-breed dog presented for acute, progressive, flaccid paraplegia and bilateral pelvic-limb hyperesthesia.
A lymphocytic pleocytosis with 366 mg/dL protein was found on cerebral spinal fluid {CSF} evaluation. Electromyography {EMG} demonstrated positive sharp waves and fibrillations in the left pelvic limb; the M wave of the left sciatic nerve was not obtainable by nerve stimulation. Seizures and dementia began during recovery from anesthesia.
Six days after onset of paralysis, the dog was euthanized. Direct fluorescent antibody testing of the brain was positive for raccoon rabies virus. This case demonstrates clinical evaluation, CSF analysis, and EMG in an animal with rabies meningoencephalomyelitis.
rhabdovirus - any of a group of viruses constituting the family Rhabdoviridae, responsible for rabies and vesicular stomatitis of cattle and horses. The virus particle is enveloped in a fatty membrane; is bullet-shaped, 70 by 180 nanometres {nm; 1 nm = 10-9 metre}; and contains a single helical strand of ribonucleic acid {RNA}. See also rabies;
vesicular stomatitis. arbovirus - acronym derived from arthropodborne virus, a group of viruses that develop in arthropods {chiefly blood-sucking mosquitoes and ticks}, in which they cause no apparent harm, and are subsequently transmitted by bites to vertebrate hosts, in which they establish infections and complete their growth cycle.
The group includes the agents responsible for yellow fever, equine encephalitis, dengue, etc.
rabies - acute, usually fatal, viral infectious disease of the central nervous system. The disease is usually spread among domestic dogs and wild carnivorous animals; all warm-blooded animals are susceptible to rabies infection. The virus, a rhabdovirus, is often present in the salivary glands of rabid animals and is excreted in the saliva; thus, the bite of the infected animal introduces the virus into a human.
If you think about it it probably is able to pass to man through a tick if all circumstances are right???
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Hubby has several positive tests for Borna virus. We believe this came from a tick. He never had a rash or knew of a tickbite, but has one positive PCR test for Lyme and a positive blood slide for Babesia -- bartonella is also clinically diagnosed.
In researching Borna virus it was first discovered to be a zoonotic disease (spread from animals to humans) in the early 1990's I believe and is frequently found in depressed and schizophrenic patients. The virus affects the brain and nervous system causing movement and mood disorders. Researchers seem to have lost interest in this virus which can kill horses and other animals.
Amantadine is the antiviral used for Borna virus -- also prescribed to many Parkinson's patients. Have always wondered if they were tested how many with Parkinson's would test positive for Borna virus.
Found one journal article that actually linked the spread of Borna virus to migrating birds -- don't think they made the connection to ticks though.
If I understood the research I read correctly, the virus is in the same class as Rabies or at least very similar.
So yes, I definitely would not rule out the possibility that ticks can transmit rabies.
Bea Seibert
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Lymelighter
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posted
I have a friend who was bitten recently and the ER she went to fortunately gave her 3 weeks of doxy and a Tetnus shot.
I hadn't heard of tetnus as a co-infection until now.
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posted
Most ER's will give a tetnus shot for all bites. I got bit by a spider and the ER gave me a tetnus shot. Growing up I always thought tetnus was for cuts made from rusted metal objects.
I can remember a large outbreak of rabies cases last summer in some parts of the South near me. They were catching and killing rabid foxes who were found in neighborhoods and infecting dogs and cats.
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sizzled
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Opossums cannot carry rabies because they have a lower body temperature.
That was a statement made by the former president of the Humane Society and veterinarian.
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northstar
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posted
Sizzled : "Opossums cannot carry rabies because they have a lower body temperature".
That is interesting!
Then, what would be the body temp of an insect or tick? Maybe they are also too cold? (and no, I am not checking it out!) I would guess reptilian like, and they assume the ambient temp.
N.
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trueblue
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posted
quote:Originally posted by duke77: Most ER's will give a tetnus shot for all bites. I got bit by a spider and the ER gave me a tetnus shot. Growing up I always thought tetnus was for cuts made from rusted metal objects.
I had thought they gave a tetnus shot anytime there was a puncture wound. What threw me was last time I had a concussion they gave me a tetnus shot. There wasn't even broken skin.
Ummm... sorry to divert from the subject of Rabies. When I still lived in NY rabies was already epidemic. Foxes and racoons were attacking children in their backyards in suburbia.
(Also a scary thought... although not necessarily fatal... I often wonder if my HepC wasn't/isn't tick born. It's not routinely tested for, unless you ask; It oughta be.)
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