Topic: Undertreatment with ABX = bacterial mutation?
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Undertreatment with ABX = bacterial mutation?
How many people have been misdiagnosed or remained undiagnosed for many, many years?
How many were repeatedly treated with 2-3 week courses of this ABX or that for miscellaneous illnesses?
Is it possible that in these cases our Bb may have mutated to become ABX resistant? In which case, it could be possible that existing ABX may only stun the bacteria or hold it at bay for a while.
Is it possible that IDSA has already come to this realization and that is the reason for their guidelines? Perhaps, if you have a "curable" strain, it SHOULD be eradicated with a brief course of treatment.
If it takes longer than 28 days, is it a mutated variant for which there would be no current ABX strong enough to completely kill it off?
Is this why I feel better for 4-5 days after a change in Tx and then go right back into this infernal abyss?
Do they just get more resistant with each ABX attack?
Excuse me. I'm going to go throw up now.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
I was on and off abx since my tick bite in 2000. Sore throats that would pop up for no reason at all, bad bronchitis, that my current LLMD believes had a patter to when I got sick.
Before i got terribly sick i was on three separate weeks of abx from May05- August 05.
It is very possible that some of us do have resistant strains. The two abx that worked for me, i rarely took...from 2000- sickeness in 2005...doxy and zmax..(alergic to zmax though)
Im still sick, and now cant take abx without severe yeast(because of all the abx i was on over the years)
Your theory of resistance makes a lot of sense...as for the IDSA, im not sure.
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pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I feel you have the definate answere.I think some of us do have strins that were undertreated.Also many were given steriods,which i have read does the same.I read an article a year ago that stated the same about TB.It said it would have been wiped out in the begining,if they knew what they were dealing with and treated it stronger.Also i feel big university hospitals dont want to waste there time knowing this.Praise the lord,lyme doctors keep us living though.
Posts: 510 | From NEVERLAND.USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
My LLMD had said at last visit that he has been having some success with pulsed dosing. (4 days on 3 days off)
Would that only work for so long before causing further mutation?
If this IS the case, what is my hope here? To try to hammer the heck out of it with the highest dose of an ABX that I haven't been txd with?
To try like mad to catch some of it in blood draws and see what it's succeptible to invitro? To try Flagyl & whatever else necessary to kill every possible form at the same time?
Hey, except for the Bb fishing expedition, I think I just gave a very good arguement for the ILADS approach.
I wonder if there's any particular time in the 28 day cycle that they're most likely to find some Bb in blood or CSF.
One of these guys should do a study of daily (or at least weekly) blood draws to see if there is an optimal time to catch them floating in there. How would they get people to do that? If I could go to my local lab, I'd volunteer.
Whatever happened to the good old days when people would go into the hospital for a couple of weeks, they'd do whatever needed to be done & then send them home.
[ 27. January 2007, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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geniveve
Unregistered
posted
hmmm, makes sense to me. my llmd had me on 1000 of ceftin or 500 twice a day, then somebody told me that wasn't enough to really do any good.
but my llmd felt that my kidneys and liver couldn't take much more and i am allergic to everything under the sun!!
so mine may have just gone dormant and now that i'm off ceftin, it's popping up worse than ever.
undosing just seems to drive the buggers underground.
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
quote:Originally posted by AliG:
Would that only work for so long before causing further mutation?
I just remembered that pulsed dosing is not supposed to cause mutation because Bb is slow to replicate?
[ 27. January 2007, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
We do pulse dosing. I agree with you that the bacteria is slow to replicate, so we aren't in danger of a surge during the off days.
My thought is that pulse dosing has two benefits. First..on the off days, the bacteria come out of hiding, second...you don't blow up the liver and kidneys.
I believe slow and steady wins the race. Hot and heavy could bring you to the point of no return.
Just my thought, for whatever that is worth.
But, you brought up a good point, something I have pondered in my daughter's treatment, but I always come back to pulsing.
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
quote:Originally posted by kelmo: First..on the off days, the bacteria come out of hiding
Exactly how does that work? Do we know how long it takes for them to come back out again?
Could the bacteria that's in hiding mutate?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dave6002
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9064
posted
quote: Could the bacteria that's in hiding mutate?
No.
Mutation is positively related to proliferation. Rest cell doesn't mutate.
Current hypothesis is that resistant bacteria are produced because of un-sufficient use of antibiotics, either too short of time and on/off of abx or long term of sub-lethal dose of abx.
This has been confirmed by in vitro experiments.
However different pathogens have different mutation rate.
HIV and HCV have high mutation rate and is one of major reasons they are hard to treat.
In vitro experiments didn't show that Bbs could develop resistance to abx, probably they grow very slowly.
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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