Topic: can't think of how to ask this right and briefly
sometimesdilly
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sorry for that. i'm having major concentration/focus problems and flat out ditziness.
the question relates to my 6 year old child who has congenital Lyme.
can the behavior/attitude described below have anything to do with Lyme? we're baffled.
over the past few years, occasionally, not non-stop, our child has used language that while not overtly racist comes close enough to dismay us mightily.
yesterday at school he told his teacher that he wanted her to announce to the class that no "brown-skinned girls" were allowed to join the club that he and a few of his boy chums have created.
one result of that comment is that he will be taken to the principal today.
We're horrified all the way around, but equally so, just plain baffled.
Our child is generous, warm, open-hearted, and has from a very early age been extremely empathetic
He has NEVER been exposed to racism of any kind by anyone anywhere in his life. We live by choice in a close-knit, integrated neighborhood, he has always had close friends who are black, the schools and programs he has attended have always been integrated.
My husband and I don't watch any television at all, so he has never seen an adult program of any kind, and the only TV he is allowed to watch is PBS type programs.
Lyme does weird things to personalities. Can that be the case here??
Is behavior that is this inexplicable an indication that he would benefit from counseling??
tx for any insights- the very puzzled dill
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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My mind is foggy today, so I apologise if I dont make any sense, BUT:
You have done all the right things as a parent in raising your child to be open hearted.And so he is open hearted as a result.
when kids reach this age, I just think stuff like this happens as a result of being exposed to other kids views at school. I wish all parents would raise their children like you have.
He may have heard an ugly comment from another child, and is testing this "new idea". Surely he should go to the principal. It is a natural learning step, that you have concequences if you hurt someone.
At his age, to him, it may have the same meaning as girls with yellow hair. Ask him what he meant, or why he used those words.
I know you have explained how those words can be hurtful. He will learn a lot from this experience. Especially since he sees how upset you are.
I have kids of all colors, and it seems they heard this stuff at school at this age, except the words were worse.
You are handling it very well.You are a good mama
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Hoosiers51
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Hi Dilly.
I am probably not qualified to give advice on these things at all, but I will at least start the discussion.
Does he say these things kind of in an irritated fashion? Or does it seem to be anger-filled?
Or is it more innocent and just blunt?
I would say if it is either of the first two, especially feeling irritated or "mean," it could just be Lyme. I can get mean and snippy too. (I'm obviously not calling your child mean.....but we all act mean now and then)
But I dont' think your child is expressing "racist" views.....I think maybe he is just exhibiting "exclusionary" views, which I sort of describe below. It's not like he said, "I don't like black girls because X" It was more just a kid trying to kick out others who are different. It's discriminatory, and thus, wrong, but not necessarily fueled by animosity.
Which doesn't make it right at all, but I'm just saying I don't think it necessarily means he has the tendencies to think anyone's "inferior" or "bad" just moreso "different" and he is a child so he doesn't realize it's not right to do that.
So back to the feeling irritable things....I personally of course wouldn't get mean and "snippy" on the basis of race, because I'm an adult, and I understand differences in skin color don't correlate with anything on the "inside."
BUT, I can just be flat out mean or exclusionary to others just because. Sort of like a "mean streak" that comes out of nowhere. And then you say to yourself, "Why was I just mean???" Lyme does play with our emotions. Sometimes it we just need a way to externalize the "nastiness" we feel on the inside....and it manifests in how we treat others. That is how I feel it is with me.
If it was more innocent and frank, I don't really know. It could have just been one of those childhood things. I'm sure it doesn't mean he feels animosity towards other races.....I believe children, when they are away from home, naturally seek out things that are very familiar to them. My best friend in Kindergarten looked EXACTLY like me.
So I think sometimes children just naturally gravitate towards what they know on the outside, until they become complex enough to interact and realize that it is the other children's **personalities*** have more to do with who they get along with than looks.
So, while he shouldn't say that, I think it is normal for kids to find a reason to exclude others....think about "no girls allowed."
I bet if you had kids at a birthday party and some had red little cone hats on, and some had ones that were yellow, a kid would say, "only the red hats can play together."
That is just how kids are, so I dont' think the intention is "racist" though it certainly qualifies as "racial discrimination."
[ 17. September 2008, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Hoosiers51 ]
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Dilly, just ask him why he doesn't want brown skinned girls to join the club. Then go from there. He is most likely the "spokesperson" of the group. If he's had no exposure to racism, then it probably didn't originate with him.
Here's an example. I had boys and girls who were my best friends. When I went to kindergarten, the girls were talking about cooties. I didn't understand a thing they were saying, but I was afraid to sit down as they talked like they were germs.
So, I ended up in the principal's office the first day of school because I wouldn't sit down.
If anyone had taken the time to find out what was wrong and why I did it, they would have seen that the other girls were the ones who should have been in trouble for taunting me. Instead, this problem went on the whole school year with different scenarios.
I was so innocent, I was gullible.
He will need to be eased into how to deal with the world. Sad, but true.
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sometimesdilly
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thanks for the support, ticked and hoose.
ticked, the thing is he didn't pick this up from from anyone at his new school.
as long ago as 2-3 years back our son began noticing that folks came in different colors. he and his best friend at the time, a black girl his age, explored that difference in a humorous way, including, rubbing each others arms to see if each other's color "rubbed off." No problem.
A few months after that,though, he announced out of the blue that he did not want to be friends with anyone who was "brown-skinned."
We had our first direct conversations with him then about why what he was saying was hurtful and unacceptable.
He didn't budge in words, but he continued to gravitate to and make friends first with black girls in every social situation he found himself in, so though puzzled, we didn't dwell much on his words.
Except,until maybe a year ago, every few months or so those words would pop up again. The best he could ever explain to us why he was saying them was that he saw brown skinned people as "different." Different how? Who knows, and he couldn't/wouldn't explain.
So, the incident yesterday didn't fallout of the sky.
Hoose- I agree that he was saying it to exclude, and that excluding is a very common thing for kids his age to do, and excluding girls in particular is downright age-appropriate, however unacceptable that is the classroom.
But what he said was not directed at all girls, just brown-skinned girls. i don't think that distinction is insignificant.
Is he saying it to be mean? I really don't know.
I think he has a lot of well-justified anger stored up, above and beyond the emotional herxes Mepron and Zith are clearly stirring up.
I can understand anger being misdirected- heck, many adults are guilty of the same thing--but the question remains, why would any of that anger be so narrowly targeted?
We're not slapping a racist label on his young head, but something here is off...
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sometimesdilly
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sorry 6, was laboring over my reply and our posts crossed.
(that year in school must have HURT you something wicked. ouch. )
in reply, though, see above. i think the sentiment DID originate with him, unfortunately.
Maybe a more direct question is, is it possible that his aversion is a lyme-related irrational obsession?
or am i finding Lyme where for once it is not?
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Hoosiers51
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If he is/was making friends with girls that are black, I would just correct him for saying what he says and let him know that saying those things is unacceptable, which I'm sure you do. But definitely emphasize how unacceptable it is.
Maybe he is just aware of the differences, and trying to figure out a way to "express" them? So maybe it's just a kid saying, "Hey, we are different" and trying to figure out in his own mind what that "means".....maybe he has no problems with black girls but is just finding a way to express what he notices in an INAPPROPRIATE way. So I guess the best thing you can do is just steer him in the right direction.
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Hoosiers51
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But to answer your question, Dilly, it doesn't really seem like an obsession from how you describe it. Unless he talks about it multiple times a day, all the time.
So I think maybe it is just an "odd" behavior, but maybe not related to Lyme? Dunno.
Either way, whether it is or is not Lyme-related, it doesn't really make a difference in his treatment, etc.
But either way also, I don't think it is anything to be overly concerned about at this point, you are already treating him for Lyme and co.....and being a good parent by telling him what he says is wrong.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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It sure is hard to figure out, especially with Lyme involved.
You said he had a best black female friend, are they still friends? If he gravitates toward black females, he must trust, feel most comfortable there.
But I dont know where the idea that Blacks are "different" came from. Thank goodness we are all different, but I guess he did not mean different in that light.
He knows he is in trouble, so you may want to talk again in a few days, he may be more open in his thoughts, if he is not afraid of getting into more trouble,. Wish I could be more help. Iwill think on it.
Good Luck , and trust your instincts, you know him best
Posts: 261 | From Piedmont | Registered: May 2008
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posted
He has NEVER been exposed to racism of any kind by anyone anywhere in his life.
Oh yes he has if he's in a public school!! As a former elem teacher I would say he's been exposed!
editing to add... I also agree with Six that what he is saying could be completely innocent. Children have to be taught that what they say greatly affects others.
This is a great time for teaching. He's not a bad kid, I'm SURE!!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96227 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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So, he gravitates towards black girls? Maybe he doesn't want to share them with his friends. Maybe he's protecting them from the racism he sees from his friends.
Maybe he's trying to fit in by pretending to not like black girls, then feeling bad that he's not treating them well so making up for it by being friends with them.
I think some talking to him and asking why in a non-threatening way might shed some light on it. Don't have him be in trouble for it, just tell him that you are wondering. It could be something simple.
And, about kindergarten, yeah, still makes me mad that they wouldn't share the red paint then I got in trouble for using the blue paintbrush in the red paint! I'm over it. I always had more friends who were boys, LOL.
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Do you think he is focusing on "different" because he feels different because he has been sick for so long? And angry for feeling different?
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Hoosiers51
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I think most children gravitate towards other children that are exactly like them. I could be wrong, but back when I was in elementary school that seemed to be true.
So, maybe HE feels different because he likes being with these girls that happen to not have the same ethnic background as him, while most of the children are gravitating towards kids of their own ethnic background?
So maybe he's the different one because of that, and he is trying to come to terms with it.
Like, maybe a boy who develops a love for ballet, and likes it, but then makes a point of saying he doesn't like it and it's sissy, even though he really likes it. Almost like trying to overcompensate and deny something he likes while he is trying to come to terms with the fact that he isn't like his peers.
So, maybe dilly your son is just exceptionally open-hearted and deep, can see beyond the surface or beyond what the other kids do, and maybe he is noticing this difference HE has from his peers and is trying to reconcile that.
Maybe he is in fact different dilly because you guys did such a good job bringing him up to not see race as an issue. That would be a good thing Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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sometimesdilly
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we haven't spoken to our son yet at all about what just happened.
his teacher asked us to not bring it up with him last night, i guess because she wanted him to not feel he was in trouble with us before his principal spoke to him?
Tutu- i very much understand your skepticism.
I well remember my first introduction to racism and it was in public school, in first grade,and it came spewing forth out directly of my very hateful teacher's mouth.
Having been brought up in a profoundly different way, i was shocked through and through, and could make no sense of why she felt as she did, though i recognized even then how powerful that hatred was.
That my son isn't shocked and in fact seems to have at least some degree of racial intolerance blows me away.
TuTu, I have seen no indication of such exposure,past or present.
The kids in his class last year and this year do NOT group themselves by race, though they certainly do by gender.
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sometimesdilly
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have to go pick up the lad now, actually, and won't be back online til much later tonight.
tx you all for putting your kind minds to this problem. i really need help thinking this through, all the more cause i am so muddled right now.
dilly
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You're right, dilly. You probably haven't seen it...but everyone in this world is exposed to it in one way or another.
It will all work out. He has good parents!!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96227 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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AliG
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Just a thought....
If it HAS been an attention-getting issue before, could this possibly be for the purpose of getting attention?
Is he at all upset about the disease and treatment, that it might seem a way to get non-disease related attention?
I agree with others that at his age kids are really big on differences.
My DD used to "love" specific teachers. Why? They were really "pretty".
She also didn't like one of the girls in her class. Why? She was "scary"? How so? She was really, really "big".
We had many discussions about how you do yourself a disservice by judging someone by their appearance.
Some people who "look" nice to you may not BE very nice people and you may miss out on having a REALLY great friend if you turn away from someone just because they "look" different.
Through the course of the year, she's had some "pretty" friends be REALLY mean little girls and when she and that "scary", "big" girl were alone together waiting for something in school, they talked.
She found out that the girl was really, really nice and very sweet. She had missed out on that most of the year because she was "afraid" of her.
Sometimes, you can talk all you want, but it isn't until they see the illustration that it really clicks.
IMO, I don't think this issue is Lyme-related. I think it's just a matter of learning a life-lesson. Unfortunately it happens to have started out with a more sensitive difference than a person's size.
I'd also think that, as Tutu said, it COULD be possible that another child has issues with this & they may have brought it up and encouraged something that he may have forgotten (that may be a Lyme memory issue?) that he had learned.
I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. I can't imagine how embarassing it must be for you.
I'd let the principal know that you'd talked about it with him when he first noticed the difference, let him know that you believe it is actually a "difference" issue (not so much an actual "racial" issue, and play the possible "lyme-memory" card.
Bring the ABC's of Lyme Disease with you, I think it talks about memory issues.
hugs & prayers, Ali
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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METALLlC BLUE
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At that age, with Lyme or not -- have you considered that one of his closet female friends who is "brown skinned" hurt him -- feelings perhaps, or in some other way, and his pattern is projecting onto "all" brown-skinned girls without race being the actual condition of the statement.
Generalities are common. If a friend hurts us we tend to stop trusting other people and say things like "People are untrustworthy" and we then react towards others beyond just the single friend that hurt us.
Consider this possibility or perhaps another rational psychological reason. It doesn't sound to me like racism is the actual core issue, rather it just came out appearing that way. The race is the superficial part everyone's focused on, and my hypothesis fits well into the context of the boys life and experience.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
Honestly it sounds like an innocent statement,....and I, personally, would be HIGHLY ticked off if my young child was sent to the principals office for suggesting it.
Maybe a "brown skinned" child annoyed him that day... he is six years old. He doesn't know what being racist IS. To punish him for saying it is wrong.. JMO
*I don't think it has a thing to do with LD*
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It doesn't sound to me like racism is the actual core issue, rather it just came out appearing that way. The race is the superficial part everyone's focused on, and my hypothesis fits well into the context of the boys life and experience.
Very true!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96227 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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I guess I have to chime in with the potential lyme factor... First, a question, does your son have OCD symptoms?
I ask, because early in my own child's lyme experience, my son had OCD-like symptoms. They included scrubbing floors with toothbrushes, having a major meltdown because we cleaned our garage before he could scrub the floors, and another melt down because we didn't line bicycles up in the right color order.
In addition to those more classic symptoms, he would also make random threatening statements, directed only towards me, and eventually towards his brother.
It was like some horrible thought would come into his mind and just roll out of his mouth. (like putting his brother in a cage, or cutting me into pieces, or locking me out of the house until I froze.) He most definately did not mean or want to do these things, yet the thoughts would come and he couldn't stop himself from saying them.
These symptoms were NOT there before he contracted Lyme (he is not congenital) and they have gone away with abx.
So as to your child's situation, maybe?????maybe not? It's hard to say. But regardless of the cause, he will have to learn that there are some things that are not ok to say, and why they are not ok.
At this age, I also see boy/girl exclusion as normal, and no matter how nice the school, it is very likely that he has heard and seen racism in his school, at the grocery store, where ever he goes, because it is everywhere.
Perhaps try talk to him about how differences are what make us all interesting an unique people, and that some differences are good, and some, not so good. And how it hurts when people are excluded, for any reason.
His actions are those of an innocent 6 year old, but they present a wonderful educational opportunity for you.
Wishing you the best. kp
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disturbedme
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quote:He is most likely the "spokesperson" of the group. If he's had no exposure to racism, then it probably didn't originate with him.
I agree with this completely. I am sure his friends were talking about it and it was thrown on him to tell the teacher this. Kids get all kinds of things from their friends at school, and not all of it is going to be good... that's for sure.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
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Geneal
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Oh Dilly,
Sorry you aren't feeling well.
I guess my first thought was that your son had possibly had a "bad" experience
With a little boy with brown skin.
Maybe some words exchanged?
Children don't always share things that bother them the most.
However, they do and will act out on them.
It seems to be a particular dislike or point he is making.
Not all children with "brown skin" are excluded including the girls.
So.....
It is so hard to monitor every encounter, every conversation, every interaction.
My 6 year old told me yesterday that a boy and girl were "making out".
Of course this is at 7:00am in the morning.
I can barely think straight enough to drive the car.
I immediately asked her if she knew what that meant.
Her instant reply was that they were kissing.
Great.
She is a little girl.
I am sure she is exposed to various situations from other children
Who may or may not have the same parental concerns or involvement as you or I do.
Not exactly the education I want my 6 year old to get right now.
Maybe just sit down and calmly discuss how God made us all different and special.
I hope that my children can learn to respect and appreciate someone else who is different.
However, I am sure if a little boy who is different than my son
Had words with him, took a toy from him, didn't share with him, etc.
My son would instantly reply with "I don't like (blank) and will never play with (blank) again.
Again my children share in pieces....tidbits of info if you may.
Just yesterday my 5 year old shared with me that he was in time out at recess
Last week for throwing rocks down the slide.
A little late by my standards for sure.
Hang in there Mom.
Maybe by addressing the issue in a round about way, your son will be encouraged
To expand on why he feels that way.
Hugs and kisses to you and yours,
Geneal
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sometimesdilly
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home and half-way upright, but notta 'nuther word can i get outta this mouth.
tx again,and will reply tomorrow AM...
love, dilly
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troutscout
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Your child is not racist.
He's trying to attract others through exclusion...and he's wasn't being malicious.
You've done everything right so far.
Since he has never been exposed to racist people....he doesn't understand how it is so demeaning.....therefore...how could appreciate what he has just done?
Not a racist....just an innocent child...learning boundaries.
I personally had no exposure to racism...until I was 24....at Army Boot Camp...it WAS HORRIBLE!
And guess what....it was the MINORITIES that caused it. (They were strongly reprimanded...by two drill sergeants of their race...actually three drills)
Later in confidence I sat down with the whole group of them (I was a different race/class) and asked why they felt compelled toact that way....I have been lucky that I always seem to fit in....so they confided in me....they thought that we were all conspiring AGAINST them because...we treated treating them as equals...therefore....in defense of what they had imagined...they struck out first.
In the end....it was a lifetime of conditioning that had caused them to act this way...conditioning that they said came from THEIR society...not the outside world.
Your child is TOO young....
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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heiwalove
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i'm so sorry, dilly. many hugs and lots of love your way.
first, i want to say that you are an amazing mom.
it doesn't sound like a lyme-related issue to me, but who knows, one can never be totally sure. i would be concerned as well, and i absolutely think that talking to him about it/getting the principal involved for saying such a thing is warranted; i say that only so that you might feel validated.
i agree that perhaps your little boy had an encounter or altercation with a little black boy or girl that left him feeling hurt, and perhaps he is lashing out now because of it. or maybe he heard something from a classmate; i think that living in this world it is next to impossible to protect our children from racism. it is everywhere.
i'm sure perhaps you're already doing this, but maybe have a talk with your son about race & racism. i know he is only six, but children are so much smarter and more perceptive than many adults give them credit for. children are going to notice color, they will notice difference - they are not 'color-blind,' and in my opinion, neither are we, even if we sometimes wish we were or would like to think that 'we don't see color.'
anyway, i'm babbling now. i think you are doing everything right, dilly. you're doing everything you can, and your son is so lucky to have such an awesome, caring mom.
Geneal
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How are you doing this morning Ms. Dilly?
Check in when you are able.
Hugs,
Geneal
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bejoy
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I hope things have settled out for you and your son about this, Dilly.
Sorry you had to deal with all that.
I usually find that in any situation it is never just one thing. A little anger caused by missing a meal or by feeling kinda sick, combined with somebody else being irritable.
I had to chuckle a bit when I read this.
My kindergartener's first week of school she came home telling me that a boy told her that at 3:00 his gang was going to come and kill her.
She said we shouldn't tell the teacher because the boy would come and kill her himself.
Pretty strong language for five year olds, and of course I told the teacher.
After some conversation with the teacher and the boy's mom, it turns out my daughter threw in the word kill. She's heard her big sister say, "my friends are going to kill me."
The little boy calls his little group of neighborhood friends his "gang." He wanted to get them to chase her around the playground.
She had been taunting him and telling him that his picture was ugly, and said he can't draw, and it hurt his feelings.
I wondered about your son maybe having his feelings hurt by one particular girl who happens to have brown skin, so rather than name her he might have made the decision generic.
I also wondered if maybe somebody might have been teasing him about being "in love" with a girl with brown skin, so he had to forcefully deny it to save his boyhood dignity from girl cooties.
Anyway, you know your son, and know he has a kind heart.
Many strange things can happen after somebody shares a large bad of red licorice they brought to school along with the M&M's and fruit punch from their lunchable.
-------------------- bejoy!
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sparkle7
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I don't have kids but I think Bejoy covered all my thoughts about this.
It may have been a personal thing directed towards one girl & came out to sound like it was against all black people... he probably doesn't understand the "loaded" context of what he said...
I'm white & my boyfriend is black. We've been together for 11 years. Race is a tricky thing but if people get it out in the open & diffuse things, it helps.
We have a black man running for president. I hope this will make this country a little less racist. It's hard to change human nature... sometimes people just need reasons to dislike each other.
I don't think it's a permanent condition for your son & you are a good person to be so concerned.
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lymie tony z
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A six year old?
And you're treating him for lyme disease.
Most likely the boys in his group have decided to exclude, for one reason or another, some people from their group. Tomorrow it may be redheads...wait and see.
Unfortunately your son may be the popular one to announce these things because of his lyme disease. His personality may very well be affected as is most people infected with TBI's because of their interference with parts of their brains that would cause them(in this case your son)to be VERY UNINHIBITED...the other kids in the group have set him up as their spokesman because of the possible lack of inhibitions.
This type of interference with certain areas of our brains may(in children)manifest later in Tourettes Syndrome like symptoms...It's wise to monitor any such emotional, personality traits and see how they either adapt and conform or become bothersome.
A lot of people who upon treating the phisiological aspects(symptoms of TBI) relapse and often the relapse carries with it a definite neurological preferance of manifestation.
It's,on the other hand, very possibly just kid stuff....
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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