posted
Happy Mothers Day! My entire family are all about to do many of these Mycoplasam tests and Igenex too .But some of my Dr.s like the Bowen and one Im about to see Dr C in MO I have been told does not.Naturally I want to get the best reliable tests possible as costs are all out of pocket.I have 5 fantastic children 4 are boys all in college.Thanks for any advice. Radiogirl
Posts: 140 | From Texas | Registered: May 2006
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6911
posted
I have heard Dr. B say on a DVD that he does not use Bowen becomes it always comes back positive. I think he states this in his guidelines as well that can be found at www.ilads.org
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
THIS IS AN EXCERPT FROM AN ARTICLE BY MARJORIE TIETGEN THAT I COPIED FROM LYMEBUSTERS WEB SITE...
I recently discovered information on a fairly new test which looks for the actual cell wall deficient form of Bb. It locates the actual germ and therefore is very accurate. It is called the Bowen Q-RiBb test, developed by Dr. JoAnne Whitaker and Eleanor Fort. These researchers are finding this organism in a very large segment of the population. I have spoken with Dr. Whitaker several times and was very impressed by her integrity and genuine sincere interest in bringing out the pandemic nature of this disease. She has witnessed so many people being misdiagnosed with other disease labels, such as, M.S, FM, ALS, CFS, etc. It is an unimaginable situation that so many people are falsely diagnosed and as a result, do not recieve proper treatment. People are dying because of this misdiagnoses.
Lida Mattman, who is a microbiologist and the author of "Stealth Pathogens", has studied spirochetes for fifty years. She believes that touching can spread lyme disease. The spirochete is found in tears, which means that it can contaminate the hands and anything they touch. Scientists are finding that the lyme spirochete is very hardy and can reman viable for long periods of time. Could this possibly be a mode of transmission for Bb within families? Often entire families are ill. One member may be diagnosed with lyme, another may be diagnosed with ALS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ADD, Fibromyalgia, etc. More and more patients with these labels are testing positive for lyme, mycoplasma and other tickborne coinfections. When treated with proper antibiotics, for a sufficient length of time (often several years is needed), a large percentage are improving. What is needed, of course, is accurate testing and more clinical diagnoses. This means tests are used as an adjunct to clinical diagnoses and not as the main determining factor. The main criteria for diagnoses and treatment should be based on the patient's history and symptoms. However , it appears that doctors have come to rely so much on test results that they can't seem to give a clinical diagnoses without a test to back it up. Or perhaps it is the pressure of malpractice or "management" by the corporations that has shaken their confidence. In any case, this is a great disservice to the patient who is seeking diagnoses and treatment.
Sandi Lanford, a lyme advocate, states the following facts concerning the Bowen Test. "Positive Bowen Q-RiBb tests have been challenged but no other test has been able to prove these results to be incorrect. There have been no false positives, for when patients are treated, based on the Bowen results, the patients have shown remarkable improvement in their symptoms. It is also difficult to dismiss the accuracy of Dr. Whitaker's Q-RiBb test, as she has an impressive background in the developement of flourescent assays, evident in numerous published research studies.. The results of the original Bowen Q-RiBb were duplicated by Lida Mattman's lab in Michigan. Dr. Mattman was nominated for the Nobel Prize in 1998 for her work on Stealth Pathogens. She is a very highly respected microbiologist. On 316 same draw blood samples, 316 cultured specimens grew out the organism Bb and the Q-RiBb test was positive for all 316. The culture method is the Gold Standard for making a definitive diagnoses of an infectious disease.. This statement means that out of 316 blood samples drawn for this particular test, the Bowen lab blood samples came up 100% positive for Bb. The Mattman controls ,from the same blood samples ,were also 100% positive. The Mattman controls duplicated the Bowen Q-RiBb results."
The Bowen Lab is a research lab and depends on grants, donations and profits from testing, in order to stay in operation and conduct more research. It is my opinion that if this test is more widely used, the results may blow the lid off the lyme pandemic coverup.
It is very important here to stress that lyme is not just a tick borne disease. Mosquitoes have been found to be loaded with this organism. It has also been found in mites, fleas, well water, African dust, tears, semen and breast milk.
Lyme support groups are reporting that those who recieved labels such as MS, ALS,CFS,FM, etc, were tested with the Q-RiBb test, found to be positive for lyme, and then treated, are improving. These results only confirm my long held suspicion that Bb and other microbes, such as mycoplasma, are running rampant through our society. It appears that this situation is being allowed to occur. It is fairly obvious that everything possible is being done to thwart proper testing, diagnoses and curative treatment.
The Michigan State Attorney's Office recently told Dr. Mattman to stop helping doctors diagnose Lyme Disease with her testing, and was threatened with time in jail or a fine of 5,000 dollars a day. Dr. Mattman says that it is getting more and more difficult to find human negative controls, in the U.S., to supply blood free of borellia. It appears that the government and certain "charity" organizations, don't want the public to become aware of this information. Recently state police arrived at her lab with handcuffs and tried to find evidence that she was still conducting this work. Fortunately, they didn't find what they were looking for. However, despite lack of evidence, Dr. Mattman has had to discontinue her very valuable work and leave her lab.
- - - - - - Both of my tests were done at Bowen and I trust them. Why? Because after I started treatment, I developed a classic Erythema Migrans rash, which even my duck PCP said looked like a tick bite reaction. Also, I do know one person who had a negative Bowen test about 5 yrs. ago, so it does happen once in awhile. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
Klutzo, please break up these long continuous paragraphs please by hitting enter often even when you copy/paste here ok. We can't read this as is. Thanks Klutzo for understanding.
quote:Originally posted by klutzo:
THIS IS AN EXCERPT FROM AN ARTICLE BY MARJORIE TIETGEN THAT I COPIED FROM LYMEBUSTERS WEB SITE...
I recently discovered information on a fairly new test which looks for the actual cell wall deficient form of Bb. It locates the actual germ and therefore is very accurate.
It is called the Bowen Q-RiBb test, developed by Dr. JoAnne Whitaker and Eleanor Fort . These researchers are finding this organism in a very large segment of the population. I have spoken with Dr. Whitaker several times and was very impressed by her integrity and genuine sincere interest in bringing out the pandemic nature of this disease.
She has witnessed so many people being misdiagnosed with other disease labels, such as, M.S, FM, ALS, CFS, etc. It is an unimaginable situation that so many people are falsely diagnosed and as a result, do not recieve proper treatment. People are dying because of this misdiagnoses.
Lida Mattman, who is a microbiologist and the author of "Stealth Pathogens", has studied spirochetes for fifty years. She believes that touching can spread lyme disease.
The spirochete is found in tears, which means that it can contaminate the hands and anything they touch .
Scientists are finding that the lyme spirochete is very hardy and can reman viable for long periods of time. Could this possibly be a mode of transmission for Bb within families?
Often entire families are ill. One member may be diagnosed with lyme, another may be diagnosed with ALS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ADD, Fibromyalgia, etc.
More and more patients with these labels are testing positive for lyme, mycoplasma and other tickborne coinfections.
When treated with proper antibiotics, for a sufficient length of time (often several years is needed), a large percentage are improving.
What is needed, of course, is accurate testing and more clinical diagnoses.
This means tests are used as an adjunct to clinical diagnoses and not as the main determining factor.
The main criteria for diagnoses and treatment should be based on the patient's history and symptoms.
However, it appears that doctors have come to rely so much on test results that they can't seem to give a clinical diagnoses without a test to back it up.
Or perhaps it is the pressure of malpractice or "management" by the corporations that has shaken their confidence. In any case, this is a great disservice to the patient who is seeking diagnoses and treatment.
Sandi Lanford, a lyme advocate , states the following facts concerning the Bowen Test.
"Positive Bowen Q-RiBb tests have been challenged but no other test has been able to prove these results to be incorrect. T
here have been no false positives, for when patients are treated, based on the Bowen results, the patients have shown remarkable improvement in their symptoms.
It is also difficult to dismiss the accuracy of Dr. Whitaker's Q-RiBb test, as she has an impressive background in the developement of flourescent assays, evident in numerous published research studies.
The results of the original Bowen Q-RiBb were duplicated by Lida Mattman's lab in Michigan.
Dr. Mattman was nominated for the Nobel Prize in 1998 for her work on Stealth Pathogens. She is a very highly respected microbiologist.
On 316 same draw blood samples, 316 cultured specimens grew out the organism Bb and the Q-RiBb test was positive for all 316.
The culture method is the Gold Standard for making a definitive diagnoses of an infectious disease..
This statement means that out of 316 blood samples drawn for this particular test, the Bowen lab blood samples came up 100% positive for Bb.
The Mattman controls, from the same blood samples, were also 100% positive. The Mattman controls duplicated the Bowen Q-RiBb results ."
The Bowen Lab is a research lab and depends on grants, donations and profits from testing, in order to stay in operation and conduct more research.
It is my opinion that if this test is more widely used, the results may blow the lid off the lyme pandemic coverup.
It is very important here to stress that lyme is not just a tick borne disease. Mosquitoes have been found to be loaded with this organism. It has also been found in mites, fleas, well water, African dust, tears, semen and breast milk .
Lyme support groups are reporting that those who recieved labels such as MS, ALS,CFS,FM, etc, were tested with the Q-RiBb test, found to be positive for lyme, and then treated, are improving.
These results only confirm my long held suspicion that Bb and other microbes, such as mycoplasma, are running rampant through our society.
It appears that this situation is being allowed to occur. It is fairly obvious that everything possible is being done to thwart proper testing, diagnoses and curative treatment.
The Michigan State Attorney's Office recently told Dr. Mattman to stop helping doctors diagnose Lyme Disease with her testing, and was threatened with time in jail or a fine of 5,000 dollars a day.
Dr. Mattman says that it is getting more and more difficult to find human negative controls, in the U.S., to supply blood free of borellia.
It appears that the government and certain "charity" organizations, don't want the public to become aware of this information .
Recently state police arrived at her lab with handcuffs and tried to find evidence that she was still conducting this work .
Fortunately, they didn't find what they were looking for. However, despite lack of evidence, Dr. Mattman has had to discontinue her very valuable work and leave her lab .
- - - - - - Both of my tests were done at Bowen and I trust them. Why? Because after I started treatment, I developed a classic Erythema Migrans rash, which even my duck PCP said looked like a tick bite reaction. Also, I do know one person who had a negative Bowen test about 5 yrs. ago, so it does happen once in awhile. Klutzo
I personally liked my Igenex positive igm/igg tests since they showed the 16 protein numbers of positive, negative, etc.
My $250 Bowen test showed nothing for co-infections and I did have lyme disease. I was very disappointed in their process.
MD labs is doing my present one from 4-20; waiting patiently for their results; never dealt w/them before.
Good luck to you. It's personal preference; the 3 I mentioned are the top 3 LYME DX LABS IN USA.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
The bottom line is that some docs - even good LLMDs - cannot face the probability that the Lyme organism is so widespread in the population.
It is more comforting for these docs to suspect that the test is unreliable than face the alternative.
We all have to understand that to acknowledge widespread of infection of Bb in the human population opens up a whole new can of worms for the scientific community. For starters, why does only a relatively small percentage of people get ill with Lyme?
BTW, the accuracy of the Bowen test has also been shown using electron microscopy. (see the Townsend Letters)
There are still quite a few "negative" Bowen test results in the UK and Europe - but not here in the U.S.
Twenty years from now, I think this period of time may be referred to as "the Dark Ages" of Lyme Disease: one big state of denial in the medical, scientific, and political communities.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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LostCityAgent
Unregistered
posted
People, whether we believe it or not, LD is a mass effect. Hands down.
Since being nearly misdx with MS, I found that I have LD, and now 7 weeks later I have been blessed to bring 3 parkinson's patients to a dx of LD. MASS EFFECT. . .
There is probably nothing wrong with her test, oh but wait, it is honest and it provokes a challenge to the medical community.
posted
My LLMD does not believe that the Bowen is ineffective, but doesn't use it because the Western Blot can give more specific information than the Bowen, i.e. which bands are positive.
Alison
--------------------
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. --- Edward R. Murrow Posts: 923 | From California | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Another important point to keep in mind here is that there is more to the Bowen test than merely "positive" or "negative." Just because you have Bb present in your blood does not mean you have Lyme disease! Why is it that 99.9% of the US population has Bb but not Lyme? Because much like Epstein-Barr, or herpes, it is an opportunistic pathogen. You can "have it" without having the disease typically associated with it, depending on the strength of your immune system, your diet, stress level, presence of other neurotoxins, etc.
Generally, numbers above 1:1 but below 1:16 are considered sub-clinical Lyme, requiring little or no treatment depending on the overall health of the individual. 1:16 and over indicated a significant presence of Lyme in the blood. Thus, the test can be used to screen individuals who have 1:2 as not having Lyme disease, versus full-blown, chronic cases such as myself - a 1:128, the highest serial dilution value.
It should also be noted that although the numbers are useful, they only measure quantity in the blood. Thus, contrary to claims of the false positive associated with the QRiBb, there is, if anything, actually a greater risk of a false negative - if the infection were hiding out in the tissues and not in the blood.
The test works best for individuals who, like me, come up with a high number (I also came up positive for Babesia, although I don't know how well the test really works for co-infections). The office I work with regularly uses Bowen and we've had very good results.
Bottom line: Positive result does not equal Lyme disease. Make sure your LLMD knows how to properly interpret the test results in conjunction with your symptoms and other test results!
Posts: 45 | From Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Nov 2005
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LostCityAgent
Unregistered
posted
Big B, I am now confused. I only have 1 band lit up thru Igenex, all else is negative. I have all the MS lesions and Doc P in CT says LD. How does he come to that conclusion? This is becoming weird. So my LD test then, was a waste of my money?
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MADDOG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18
posted
Hi,My opinion is lyme like aids has to be activated by a second organism.
I saw a report on aids you can have one half of it and never get it .
Lyme was the first expirenment,they put the DNA sequence in a bacteria,probably sifilus,or anthrax..it wasant deadly enuf so they put the DNA sequenc in a virus,(WALLA AIDS)!!!
The GOV is still (GUILTY)everyone has been exposed with half of it.
The other half is a mistery,mabee,i have my theories.
But I cant admit to what the other half to activate this terror is.
MADDOG
Posts: 4008 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2000
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I know very little about the Igenex test, so I can't help you there. What I do know is that LD comes in many shapes and sizes and because of many causes. Because of this, and because everyone is different, there is no single universal diagnosis that will work for everyone (just as there is no single universal cure).
My point with the Bowen test was to respond to the criticism aimed at the extraordinarily high percentage of "positives" (a point that bothered me enough back when I took the test that I contacted Bowen to learn why). From what I understand, both Bowen and Igenex are the only reliable Lyme tests - but they use completely different methods and both organizations have, I think, been subject to governmental scrutiny.
If you trust your doc (and don't just trust him because you need someone to trust!), then I would go with his diagnosis and work with him. The important thing is that you have a doc who (1) is knowledgeable and open-minded about LD, (2) is a good communicator (especially a good listener), and (3) is committed to getting you better, not just getting you out of his office. Remember, the LD diagnosis needs both a clinical evaluation and an objective test, and a good doc can spot LD immediately (my doc suspected that 10 minutes after I walked in his door).
Finally, it seems that most people don't just "have Lyme." Usually, they have some other neurotoxin destroying their CNS, whether it be a heavy metal, mold, or other bugs. Whether it was the chicken or the egg that came first, I don't know, but until you get ALL the major toxins out of your body you will not get well. See if your doc will get you tested for heavy metals (Doctor's Data does a good urine test) and if you live in a house that has ever had its basement flooded then check for mold.
Posts: 45 | From Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Nov 2005
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dmc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5102
posted
Why do some llmds not credit the Bowen test? As I was told by my llmd, it's not the test nor the method in question, it is the fact the Bowen test isn't FDA approved YET for considering positive lyme.
Lyme is SUPPOSED to be a clinical diagnosis and lab tests only second consideration, but telling that to insurance companies and even state health departments doesn't help. Having the FDA approved tests run, makes life easier for the LLMD & patient.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Many experienced LLMD's can spot someone with Lyme just by looking at them with more certainty than any of the tests provide. The tests are needed to support the diagnosis, so they may be grudginly allowed to treat the person.
They know the person almost certainly has it by the clinical signs. They know Bowen would confirm it, but what is needed is a confirmation from an APPROVED test to get a little protection for their medical license.
I believe Bowen's shockinly high positive rate is probably correct. Are there really so many people that are infected with this and aren't sick?
When you start looking around you see that many of them ARE SICK. They are having fatigue, chills, aches, rashes, strange neuro problems,and all sorts of 'inflamatory disorders'. What they don't knowm is WHY. They have various junk diagnosis and little actual treatment.
That is what happens when entities try to deal with an epidemic by covering it up.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
quote:Originally posted by LostCityAgent: Big B, I am now confused. I only have 1 band lit up thru Igenex, all else is negative. I have all the MS lesions and Doc P in CT says LD. How does he come to that conclusion? This is becoming weird. So my LD test then, was a waste of my money?
Oh, dear, Lost!
You have briefly forgotten a coupla important things! (See, ANOTHER Lyme symptom!)
1. Lyme is a CLINICAL diagnosis. 2. Your doctor has seen a buncha guys like you. I'd put money on it. He's been here and done this. 3. Your doctor would not be treating you for Lyme if he secretly believed you had MS or tse-tse fever. If he was that kinda guy, he wouldn't be on our "list."
He'd be on a whole different kinda list. The one that begins "S H I _ List."
4. The sickest lyme patients are sometimes seronegative. There are studies on this. The figure is somewhere around 25%. I am not making that up. Wouldn't it be a shame if all those sick people refused to believe they had lyme? These are people who have PROVEN lyme, but who nevertheless remain seronegative.
5. Sometimes after a bit of treatment, people convert to WAY positive. You might be one of those.
You are a smart guy with insightful quotes in your signature line. Keep reading and learning and don't let the ducks drag you into the pond!
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
It is my understanding that the only FDA approved Lyme test is that C6 Lyme ELISA test, which has not proven to be as accurate as originally hoped.
Other than that one, I don't think there are ANY other FDA approved Lyme tests. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this, and point me to the proof.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Tracy you are right ....the only test for Lyme approved by the FDA is the PCR and that is for tissue NOT blood. For blood it is about 35% accurate, for tissue about 90% accurate.
The Bowen lab is a specific lab that test ONLY for Lyme and co-infections. Therefore, about 99% of the people who windup testing at the Bowen lab already suspect they have Lyme disease from the cluster of Lyme symptoms they are showing. Also, in about 70% of the cases they have had negative test results for Lyme with the antibody testing, the ELISA and/or Western Blot. The other 30% are looking for a confirmation of a positive test for Lyme because the other test didn't show all the bands,or the result was equivocal.
Many of the doctors don't use the Bowen test because they follow the CDC's two tier testing recommendations. However, even the CDC admits that these test were never meant to be used for diagnosing Lyme disease, they were meant for surveilance purposes.
The lab is in research status, but they have recently applied for CLIA approval. The Bowen lab has only been in operation since 1997. In that time they have only done about 18,000 Lyme test. Just recently they have attained the grown that warrants an investment in being CLIA approved.
CLIA approved labs like IGENEX are favored by physicians. Mainly because doctors feel more comfortable in placing a positive diagnosis for Lyme with a positive test from a CLIA lab. The objective of the CLIA program is to ensure quality laboratory testing. Also all clinical laboratories must be properly certified to receive Medicare or Medicaid payments. Bowen is a non-profit organization presently in research status, however the lab is under quality inspections from the state on an annual basis.
SandiB
Posts: 991 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
IMO, Bowen and Igenex are by far the best labs around. I decided not to spend hundreds of $$$ on Igenex and still have the risk of a false-negative. So, I had the Bowen test done first which came back at 1:64.
At the end of the day, who cares if SOME doctors don't take the Q-RIBb test seriously? At least YOU will know if you have Lyme disease or not. My doctor believes the Bowen lab and uses it very often so I am lucky.
It really is a fantastic test and I hate it when I see people get a negative result from Igenex and they still don't know if they have it. If I did have the Igenex test done first and it was IND or Negative I would certainly have the Q-RIBb test done.
Posts: 263 | From UK | Registered: Mar 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by Big B: Just because you have Bb present in your blood does not mean you have Lyme disease!
Why is it that 99.9% of the US population has Bb but not Lyme?
depending on the strength of your immune system, your diet, stress level, presence of other neurotoxins, etc.
Just because you have Bb present in your blood does not mean you have Lyme disease! Borrelia Burgdorferi or Bb if its in your blood you will have all the effects of LYME DISEASE.
[Why is it that 99.9% of the US population has Bb but not Lyme? Its not Bb Borrelia Burgdorferi it maybe other spirochetes but not Bb.
depending on the strength of your immune system, your diet, stress level, presence of other neurotoxins, etc.
Strength of immune system has very little to do with it because Bb or Borrelia Burgdorferi immeadiatly begins to change when they enter your body adapting to your immune responce no matter how strong it is. Also if you have been bitten by a tick it also suppresses immune responce.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
To reply to YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION Radio Girl, I have personally spoke with Bowen, as well as Dr. C., and he DOES believe in their monoclonal staining technique. He does believe that it only stains Bb and not other spirochetes.
No test is perfect. All have their drawbacks. The western blot (performed by the best lab, IGeneX) has innate in its nature many problems, that have nothing to do with the lab that can lead to false negatives (which Dr. C. can and does explain as well as give handouts on and I can copy one and send it to you if you need one).
Bowen is at least headed in the right direction if not already there. They are at least testing for the infectious cells (antigens) themselves as opposed to the antibodies, which there are a whole host or reasons why they may not show up on the western blot (once again on the Dr. C. paper).
I have been tested by both labs. Postive by Bowen 1:128, Equivocal from IGeneX, with a very disturbing SPECT scan of my brain. So I am pretty confident I have lyme, and currently being treated w/IV.
Hope this helps, any questions or need any information please feel free to email me.
jloisu
-------------------- jloisu Posts: 197 | From Seeing Lyme Green in Iowa | Registered: Jun 2005
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