Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
While I did great in microbiology class, I had a lot of trouble in chemistry (understatement), so help here is needed.
For a second, let's assume melatonin IS capable of destroying Bb. Let's also assume Bb's outer cell wall is cholesterol + zinc.
Okay, how does melatonin work? It is believed it is the "indole" part of the molecular structure that is the active part that makes this a powerful antioxidant. (Melatonin also triggers bicarbonate release in the intestines.)
From what I can tell...it looks like nitrogen plays a huge part. From pictures of the molecular structure of melatonin, nitrogen looks sorta just sticking out there...ready to latch onto another chemical.
pq...I hope you are reading this.
Now...forgive me, but the molecular formula for cholesterol is:
N2O3 is dangerous. Genetic wise. It is thought this is the toxin in cigarette smoke: "These results suggest that it is N2O3, rather than NO2, that is the most likely source of mutagenic potential from gaseous nitrogen oxides. "
However...
Is there anyone here who sees links or understands the following and can try to explain it to me?
"Lipids are also made of Hydrogen, Carbon, and Oxygen atoms, but they also sometimes contain Phosphorus and/or Nitrogen."
Note: cholesterol does NOT contain P or N.
Significance of this?
"there is an OH, or "hydroxyl" group, which makes cholesterol an alcohol."
Alcohol converts to ethanol... "bubble nitrogen through the suspension until ethanol is removed."
Beyond me...
J Biochem Mol Toxicol. 2002;16(3):109-20.
"Is N2O3 the main nitrosating intermediate in aerated nitric oxide (NO) solutions in vivo? If so, where, when, and which one?"
Chem Res Toxicol. 1999 Feb;12(2):132-6.
Effect of *NO on the decomposition of peroxynitrite: reaction of N2O3 with ONOO-:
"Therefore, rapid consumption of peroxynitrite occurs upon increasing the peroxynitrite concentration,
***decreasing the phosphate concentration, and lowering the pH, as the hydrolysis of N2O3 is base-catalyzed."
decreasing phosphate...(ATP)
Wish I understood this:
Regiospecific nitrosation of N-(terminal) blocked tryptophan derivatives by N2O3 at physiological pH Michael Kirsch, Anke Fuchs, and Herbert de Groot
"Conclusively, our data clearly demonstrate that N2O3 nitrosates the secondary amine function at the indole ring of N-blocked tryptophan with high reactivity at physiological pH values. "
Development of new insulinomimetic zinc(II) picolinate complexes with a Zn(N2O2) coordination mode: structure characterization, in vitro, and in vivo studies:
". Then, Zn(6-mpa)2, which exhibited the highest in vitro insulinomimetic activity among three complexes examined, was given at a dose of 3.0 mg (45.9 micromol) Zn/kg body weight to KK-A(y) mice with type 2 diabetes mellitus by daily intraperitoneal injections for 14 days and it was found that the hereditary high blood glucose levels were lowered during the administration of the complex.
The improvement of diabetes mellitus was confirmed with the oral glucose tolerance test."
PMID: 11862542
Lowers sugar? Bb loves sugar.
Nitric oxide (N2O2)the key?
Posts: 9430 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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chroniclymie
Unregistered
posted
try this thoery for treatment. 1) chronic lymies have virtually no bb or coinfections in the blood stream htey are all bound to tissue in one way or the other.embedded deep in tissue nothing will kill bb in a dormant state even flagyl doesn't penetrate deep tissue. 2) So how do we get the bb,etc. into the blood stream so that we can attack the bugs,THIS IS WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE THE ONLY "CURE" FOR LONG TEWRM LYME, EVERYTHING ELSE IS COSMETIC. 3) bb binds to the end protein of muscle and tendon tissues and we, they need to find a mechanism to block and unblock the attachment of the end protein of tissue to the bb cyst form. I have been doing extensive research on this subject and within six months probably write a journal article to help recognize and bind this end section protein. I think i may have a way of altering the binding end of bb so as to prevent the link to the tissue receptor, but this may be theoretical. i have tried several techinques on myself ,since i have access to may if not all meds and research. WILL KEEP YOU INFORMED ,BUT AS OF NOW, I THINK YOUR SPINNING YOUR WHEELS ABOUT EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE REAL REASON WE CAN'T CURE LYME.
Dave6002
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9064
posted
We might have all missed the real culpit(s).
We thought that Lyme was caused by Bbs.
But there are many phenomenons that couldn't be explained by this concept.
The Bb loads in our body is very low (otherwise the detection of Bbs would be much easier) and probably most are in dominant form when we are taking Abx.
This cannot explain why we are still very ill.
Unless Bbs can secret very toxic toxins, which there is no evidence to support.
Probably, Lyme is a desease of a complex of mulitple pathogens composed of eukaryotes and prokaryotes.
Furthermore, Lyme is not like an onion of multiple layers.
You cannot take the onion off by removing the layers one by one.
You may be able to reduce the number of one pathogen, but you cannot eradicate it.
Once you stop and change to treat others, the pathoen would thrive again... there is no ends and no cure by such therapy.
Instead you need to treat Lyme as a whole complex.
The treatment should target all the components of the complex.
Say by combining medicines that treat Babs, Bb, Bart, and Ehrlichia together.
And see if it is more efficient...
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
The WB test measures antibodies. Does it pick up DAMAGED antibodies (PMID: 1093189 and PMID: 9125579)? Unlikely. Many antibodies are damaged when Mg is low.
Zn+cholesterol is very toxic. We need a little zinc, too much is very toxic. Cholesterol is a steroid...acidic.
Multiple pathogens likely. Bb makes a nice home for sweet loving friends. With the exception of anthrax (gram positive), all gram negative pathogens are missing acids...they go after ours. Many like sugar too...PFK dependent.
Since Mg and Ca are needed to make healthy antibodies against all pathogens, the more will be needed. Co-infected with Babesia, a protozoan, presents a unique problem. There is a strong babesia - calcium link (just type those 2 words into a search engine).
To counter metabolic acidosis, the body is going to call for the most abundant mineral to come out of storage...calcium...to counter.
Years ago, in Germany, vets cured dogs with neuro babesia using IV Na bicarb. Sodium is more reactive than calcium. The dogs were acidic and responded well to becoming more alkaline.
But with Bb as the primary bad guy...Na (sodium) and H (hydrogen) are already IN the cells. Too much so. This is what happens in metabolic acidosis.
Since Mg can inactivate PFK and inactivate HMG CoA reductase...putting the brakes on the glycolysis and cholesterol pathways, can displace zinc, is utilized (along with calcium) to make healthy antibodies, can help prevent Bb from locking on, can stimulate DNA repair,etc. this is the mineral of choice to fight. Enough Mg will compete with Ca. How much, what kind (sulfate, chloride, bicarbonate...), how often? And how do we get it BACK in the cells if ATP is low?
Mg regulate PFK = PMID: 1832860 (hypothesize), but we do know Mg-ATP, citrates, etc. do inactivate PFK.
Bb is UNIQUE..i.e. the cell wall is NOT an LPS layer.
The cell walls are indeed "layers". The more layers, the tougher to penetrate which is why gram negative pathogens are typically harder to cure. Gram positive pathogens have one cell wall, gram negative have more than one cell wall. The steps to destroy (lyse) a gram neg. pathogen are to: 1.weaken the cell wall and then 2.osmotic pressure or ultrasound to "finish it off".
That's what our own antibodies do...that's what antibiotics are supposed to do...step 1: weaken the cell wall (or prevent its formation).
Treating the OTHER infections first IMO...can alter Bb's proteins -> mutations. Hard for our immune system to keep up with ongoing mutations since antibodies must be a perfect "fit".
Binding:
Among the host components recognized by this spirochete are fibronectin and glycosaminoglycans (GAGs). PMID: 16368999 (2006)
In conclusion, these results indicate that the antiplatelet activity of magnesium sulfate may be involved in the following two pathways: (1) Magnesium sulfate may inhibit the activation of protein kinase C, followed by inhibition of phosphoinositide breakdown and intracellular Ca+2 mobilization, thereby leading to inhibition of the phosphorylation of P47 (see additional link below). (2) On the other hand, magnesium sulfate inhibits the Na+/H+ exchanger, leading to reduced intracellular Ca+2 mobilization, and ultimately to inhibition of platelet aggregation and the ATP-release reaction. PMID: 14730206
Borrelia burgdorferi isolate B31 expressed a 47 kDa (P47) fibronectin-binding protein PMID: 9988477
Glycosaminoglycan (GAG) Glycosaminoglycan (GAG) is the polysaccharide unit that makes up proteoglycans, a molecule made of saccharides and proteins. GAGs are extracellular matrix molecules that help give tissues like cartilage their rigid structure.
Mg DEFICIENCY may be one of the factors involved in the increased level of GAG.
PMID: 7751039
You might want to do the math and see the ``significant'' % drop in Mg at the time of the rash:
``Lyme disease and magnesium deficiency
V. CRISTEA - Department of Immunopathology, Medical Clinic III, "Iuliu Hatieganu" University of Medicine and Pharmacy, MONICA CRIAN - Department of Immunology, "Ion Chiricu" Oncological Institute, Cluj-Napoca, Romania V. CRIAN - ITEM-Paneuro Group. [email protected]@if..c;!ntci,rQ
During the period April 2001 - January 2003, we had under observation two cases, in which the presence of both IgM and IgG antibodies to Borrelia burgdorferi was serologically confirmed at high titers. In both cases, clinical manifestations were similar: shivering, fever, headache, articular and right hypochondrium pain, and objectively - tachycardia and erythema migrans - these elements being important for the formulation of Lyme disease suspicion.
Humoral tests showed: significantly increased ESR, leukocytosis with PMN predominance, intensely positive PCR (for B. Burgdorferi DNA)
and significant magnesium deficiency (1.20 mEq/L, 1.33 mEq/L, respectively).
A large spectrum of antibiotics with both oral and parenteral administration has been so far used in the treatment of Lyme borreliosis. Among the most frequently used are tetracyclines, betalactamides and cephalosporins.
The decision to initiate antibiotic therapy can be difficu1t because in the majority of the cases acute infection is self-limited. Asymptomatic patients, in whom laboratory examinations sustain the diagnosis of Lyme disease, should be treated in order to prevent rnfection dissemination.
Since in the first case antibiotic therapy alone did not lead to the expected results, magnesium derivatives were also associated. In both cases, following combined therapy, symptomatology significantly improved at 14 days, and laboratory examinations were restored to normal values after 6-8 weeks - disappearance of IgM to B. Burgdorferi
and significantly increased magnesemia (1.74 mEq/L, 1.72 mEq/L, respectively)
We believe that in certain diseases, Mg deficiency can cause a decrease in immune response. The appearance of recurrences, which are frequently reported in the literature, in spite of adequate antibiotic therapy, could represent an argument for this.
This is why the use of Mg derivatrves in therapy can represent an immunostimulating factor. The peculiarities of the cases are the following:
1. Patients had in addition to fever, articular pain and erythema migrans, Mg deficiency
2. The supplementation of therapy with Mg derrvatives had an immediate beneficial effect that was maintained in time.
As a conclusion at this stage, we consider that in the acute phase of Lyme borreliosis there is a significant Mg consumption and the introduction in therapy of such preparations is recommended and beneficial.''
If we watch how the body responded...what it chose to use to fight (Mg first, then vitamin E and A) we should follow the lead and support the immune system with the same.
These are not, however, the only nutrients that are dropping. They are the ones we used to try to fight. Bb is using our fructose, phosphorus, choline, zinc and perhaps selenium.
There are tremendous stores of Mg-ATP and some B6...and a day's worth of glycogen in the liver. It should be able to help out. Something is wrong. Choline, ethanol (from the fermentation of sugar), phosphorus levels...are impacting the "health" of the liver. The brain and pancreas are also impacted from ethanol.
This is...from a nutritional standpoint...a disaster. Far too many nutrients are taking a hit.
[ 08. July 2006, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9430 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Foggy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1584
posted
Marnie, you had mentioned TNF blockers in a previous post. Any futher thoughts? I intend to ask LLMD about this.
I'd be worried about immune suppresion effects.
Posts: 2451 | From Lyme Central | Registered: Aug 2001
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
The only way to subdue the overgrowth of microorganism is to take their breeding ground away. As we all know by now, Bb is not the only culprit. We need to change our own eco-system and bring it back into balance. We need to clear out the toxins.
This was published by Dr. K. in the 1990's:
"So in the long run, the situation looks different: the cells of the body are harmed by toxic metals whereas the invading microorganisms can often thrive in a heavy metal environment. Research by Ludwig, Voll and others in Germany, by Omura and myself here in the US, showed that microorganisms tend to set up their housekeeping in those body compartments, that have the highest pollution with toxic metals.
The body's own immune cells are incapacitated in those areas whereas microorganisms multiply and thrive in an undisturbed way. The teeth, jawbone, Peyers patches in the gutwall, the groundsystem (connective tissue) and the autonomic ganglia are common sites of metal storage - where microorganisms thrive.
Furthermore, those body areas also are vasoconstricted and hypoperfused (by blood, nutrients and oxygen), which fosters the growth of anaerobic germs, fungi and viruses. The list of symptoms of mercury toxicity alone, published by DAMS (dental amalgam support group), includes virtually any illness known to humankind: chronic fatigue, depression and joint pains are the most common.
To keep it simple: mercury alone can mimic or cause any illness currently known - or contribute to it.
Modern Medicine has taken a giant leap in the last few years through the discovery and use of the PCR test (polymerase chain reaction). Virtually any illness looked at seems to be caused or contributed by a chronic infection.
A study performed by the VA administration (and published in JADA, April 1998) on 10 000 US veterans showed that most coronary heart disease really started as an endothelial infection, in most cases caused by microorganisms from the mouth.
Another study showed that close to 70 % of all TMJ syndromes in women are caused or contributed to by chlamydia trachomatis. Childhood diabetes is often caused by either a cytomegaly or influenza virus infection. And on and on.....
Has Guenther Enderlein not basically found the same truth over 60 years ago? What took so long?
Like Bechamp and others he found that infections cannot thrive in the body, unless the milieu is changed in the first place. Rather than looking at the pH, osmolality and the other factors (today also jokingly called the "BTA factors" - from an instrumentation available in the US called "Bio-terrain assessment", which is really a modernization of an instrument developed by French researcher and hydrologist Vincent), I suggest diagnosing and treating toxic metal residues in the body along with appropriate treatment of the microorganisms.
As long as compartmentalized toxic metals are present in the body, microorganisms have a fortress that cannot be conquered by antibiotics, Enderlein remedies, ozone therapy, UV light therapy and others."
That's a long and tedious approach, but it works; and it beats being sick for a lifetime.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
IMO...don't block TNF alpha with high-powered drugs...prevent it from forming in the first place.
TNF alpha is an inflammatory cytokine. It is being overproduced for many reasons. It is acidic. It looks to rise to counter too much calcium.
Mg is an anti-inflammatory, anti-histamine, natural calcium channel blocker, etc.
The "side effect" of Humira include TB and cancer.
Besides expense, weigh the risks. You will feel better on Humira...I understand, but it doesn't stop osteoporosis. Our bones need: Ca, Mg, P, boron and vitamin D. All..and in the right proportion. Tricky...very.
ASA is better than Tylenol (which reduces glutathione)for the pain. Yup...good old aspirin...better yet...Bufferin. (Mg+ASA)..."buffered".
With lyme, it appears TNF alpha (Th1 pathway) is overproduced...ouch! It also appears nitric oxide maybe overproduced too. This can damage the myelin sheath. The body is trying to find alternative ways to rid a really tough infection since the antibodies (which normally destroy bacteria) are damaged due to Mg levels too low.
I agree with GiGi...toxins from the metals are a problem. But...normally the bile salts in our liver are supposed to take care of this. I don't think our liver is fully functioning. It think it is struggling along. The liver is HUGE and is our major detox organ (skin too). We can only get rid of toxins thru these routes: our breath, our skin, our urine and our bowels (where the liver, pancreas come into play)...to remove what we don't need, what can be harmful to us.
I suspect vitamin E (to help protect the liver from ethanol) and restoring phosphorus and choline might be helpful. With choline low, this alone -> "fatty liver".
Posts: 9430 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Marnie, I agree that liver normally takes care of heavy metals - for some people only. But nothing in any chronic disease is "normal". The liver cannot deal with it because the some of the metal toxins are sitting in the brain/brain stem, doing their damage there, and the way back out is cut off until we force the issue by a variety of means. I have posted at length about the tubulin involved in the transport of hg.
Our hormone manufacture is stalled because the mercury sits on the ligand sites of the hormone producing cells. Without sufficient hormones, nothing works to full capacity, if at all.
It is one long chain reaction, with the end result that we remain sick.
Many symptoms that many people attribute to Lyme and co-infections are in reality the result of heavy metal toxicity. And many of us are barking up the wrong tree talking lyme, lyme, lyme, bart, bart, bart, babs, babs, babs.....
The identical symptoms can be due to heavy metals, the toxins released from infected teeth and supposedly successful root canals, and I don't even want to mention the damage done to jaw and brain from the dental toxins (mercaptans and thioether) put out by root canals.
I myself barked up the Lyme tree for a long time until Dr. K. educated me. It's hard to take that mental jump when you have blamed most of the miseries on this lowly borrelia for years. Many are fighting the bugs while in reality they have long managed to get them to where they are under control. But the toxic terrain is still there, for the cysts to hatch and continue their play, some or all symptoms remain, along with the added residue from toxic drugs, waiting for the next invasion of mutations of a different sort. Lyme is not an isolated illness with a few co-infections; it is a multi-factorial problem, has been for years, and it can be overcome.
It can only happen if we clean up our body.
Take care.
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