I have been taking Artemisnin since late May for Babesia. Initially I had severe herxes with tachycardia, fatigue, increased brain fog and headhaces. I was to start another herbal for artemsinin, Banderol from Nutramedix, however there was a delay in production.I was on also taking antiparastic, VRM1, at this time which had some effectiveness for Babesia.
Over time the herxheimer reaction to artemsinin diminshed and my symptoms improved.
Banderol is finally out, and I took my first dose yesterday. I am to come off of artemsinin in a week as I have been on it for five months. Now I am wondering if I should continue artemisinin while I am on the Banderol for the next two months. I also have started rifing regularly for Babesia, and do herx fromt those frequencies.
So my basic questions are: -do most people take artemsinin at the same type as other antiparastic medications? If so why? -is it necessary to take more than one anitparasitic for babesia and why (similar to question above). -is it safe to take artemisinin for such extended periods. -Now that I have been on artemesinin for five months and VRM1 (another herbal) and seen much improvement, how much longer should I expect to treat Babesia at the MINIMUM.
Any articles, citations or papers would be appreciated.
Sorry for the rambling, hopefully my posts will have more clarity and my questions better outlined as I improve.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
You seem to already be in the advanced class as far as this subject goes. I was using quite a bit of artemisinin for awhile last year.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much research on artemisinin and its derivatives for Babesia.
You will find research in the context of malaria that is useful.
For Malaria they use a very high dose of an artemisinin in combination with another malaria med, and only for 5 days or so. For a malaria without a liver stage this works great, but babesia seems to survive somewhere. There has been speculation that is has a liver stage too, but supposedly it does not. Nonetheless it comes back when treated this way. (Search for posts by liz28 on this subject.)
Anyway what we take away from the malaria info is that is is usually used in combination with something else. LLMD's seem to combine it with another med when treating babesia too.
One thing about artemisinin... When used continuously there is an enzyme issue in your digestive system that greatly reduces absorbtion after a week or two. Taking a break from it for a week or so is common to let this situation resolve. Pulsing the artemisinin can work well.
Taking grapefruit juice with it supposedly improves absorbtion. There was actually a study on that one in Africa in connection with the malaria research. Many meds are affected by grapefruit juice, so they need to be checked for compatibility first.
Maybe somebody elso knows more about this. Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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If you have been taking Art on a long term basis continually at a small dose like 100 mg tid, then you are getting almost no benefit from it. It's not that babs builds up a resistance to it, it's that tests have shown that absorption of Art is blocked up to 70% after a few days by an intestinal enzyme.
The effect of Art is definitely dose dependant, and it is neccessary to pulse it so that it's full effect can take place. What has worked great for me is to take 500 mg Bid for 5 days, and then stop for 3 days. It's also neccessary to take it at least 4 hrs away from all antioxidants, including Milk Thistle. It must not be taken with food that has iron in it. I take it on an empty stomach before bed with omega 3 oil, and then first thing in the morning 1 hr before breakfast.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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Can you point to documentation for this? I would like to pass this along to others.
I've done Artemisinin but was never advised to do anything but take it 100mg tid.
Thank you.
-------------------- Suzanne Shaps STAND UP FOR LYME Texas (www.standupforlyme.org) (Please email all correspondence related to protecting Texas LLMDs to [email protected] with copy to [email protected]) Posts: 977 | From Austin, TX, USA | Registered: May 2004
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As far as it being dose dependant, this is my opinion based on the effects that I have felt personally, and also objective studies that support it's use in high doses for short periods. Gigi has pointed out many times that Dr K has found Art dissappointing unless used at high doses like 1500 mg per day.
It has been clear to me from reading many posts that most of the people take Art without regard to food or antioxidants. It's no wonder that it has proven dissappointing to most.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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I do recall most of the literatre cited here on artemisinin was in relationship to malaria.
James I assume that from your post you believe I should continue on artemesinin while on Banderol. As little is known about the treatment of chronic Babesia, less is known about Banderol. Energetically it tests strong for Babesia in its various forms. Lets say that it will eradicate Babesia from wherei it stored, the liver perhaps. Artemsinin would still be needed...?
I have been taking 800 mg (400 mg twice a day of artemesinin) for five days, then two days off. micul, is there a reason for the three day break rather than two or four?
Thank you for the tips about antioxidants and artemesinin. I have read coflicting information. For now, I will take my vit E, vit C, and blueberry , R-Lipoic acid away from the artemsinin. Any other common antioxidants that one should avoid?
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
No, I don't know about Banderol or how it might interact with Artemisinin.
My point was mainly that Artemisinin alone was not usually considered adequate for treating Babesia, and that the LLMD's tended to combine it with something else.
You would certainly want to find out if they were compatible before using them together.
A good first step would be finding out what Banderol is... I can't find any information on it unless it is misspelled.
You may find that you are the teacher in this classroom, rather than the student. Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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-------------------- Suzanne Shaps STAND UP FOR LYME Texas (www.standupforlyme.org) (Please email all correspondence related to protecting Texas LLMDs to [email protected] with copy to [email protected]) Posts: 977 | From Austin, TX, USA | Registered: May 2004
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I have tried stopping for only 2 days, but I have found that it wasn't long enough. 3 days is minimum in my opinion, and 4 or more days off would actually be better for returning absorption to maximun. I have no way to measure if 3 days off is really long enough. I'm sure that it varies between individuals and even sexes. The study does not give an exact number of days off before full absorption is regained again.
"Recent information has come to light that indicates that the intestine builds up resistance to absorbing oral artemisinin compounds very quickly, within several days. Resistance is demonstrated by a drop to >30% of the original rate of absorption. Research indicates that this resistance can be overcome very quickly by discontinuing use of the artemisinin compounds for several days to a week; when resumed, their absorption will be at the previous higher level. (Ashton, et al., Artemisinin pharmacokinetics is time-dependent during repeated oral administration in healthy male adults, Drug Metabolism and Disposition 26 {1998} 25-27.)"
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hi Micul, Thank you for the article. Something worth printing out.
Waiting too long may allow a relapse in symptoms. I recall a thread from Jay (groovy) where he stated that if he was off medications for babesia for three days symptoms would come back.
I discussed this with my doctor and he agreed two days was sufficient time.
So hard to know. May I ask how you knew two days was not enough?
James- Banderol is another broad spectrum antimicrobal from Nutramedix, also a Pervuian herb similar to Cumanda and Samento. I believe I have a link if you are interested.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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For those of you on Art..and pulsing, how long have you been on this treatment?
Posts: 116 | From state of lyme | Registered: Oct 2006
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Anything like that is interesting. There doesn't seem to be any information on it though, unless it is also called by a different name. I couldn't even find mention of it on the Nutramedix site.
I guess that makes you our test case. Please let us know what it does!
James
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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James, I suppose I am a test case, under good supervision though.
I started Banderol four days ago, at a low dose building up and am already experiencing herxheimer symptoms: depression, fatigue, I FORGOT my purse for the first time, and other wonderful things. I also had a headache wich I usally asssociate with Babesia herxes.
Banderol should be out in about four weeks time. I had good results with Cumanda and am hopefule about Banderol also. I'll keep in touch.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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