Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
MY PAIN - YOUR GAIN
I AM TYPING THIS ONE HANDED - LEFT.
STEROID SHOT IN RIGHT WRIST FOR TENDINITIS THIS MORNING = EXTREME PAIN
LOOKED FOR WAYS TO TREAT NATURALLY = HYALURONIC ACID.
WHEN GOING INTO MODE OF ACTION...DISCOVERED IT MAYBE A PROBLEM FOR LYME - ALREADY UPREGULATED!!!
ANYWAY...I THINK I HAVE STUMBLED ON AN AMAZING NEW DRUG TO HELP LYME!!!
I AM NOT KIDDING!!!
I WILL PASTE THE INFO. BELOW - DID IN A HURRY - NO LINKS,BUT COULD FIND THEM LATER WHEN MY TYPING ABILITY IMPROVES.
PLEASE,PLEASE - I BEG YOU - CUT AND PASTE THE FOLLOWING IN A WORD FILE AND PRINT IT OUT FOR YOUR LLMDS. IF HE/SHE IS REALLY REALLY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT BB, HE/SHE WILL CATCH ON TO HOW THIS COULD INDEED WORK.
saikosaponin-d
Saikosaponin-d (Ssd) is a triterpene saponin derived from the medicinal plant, Bupleurum falcatum L. (Umbelliferae). Previous findings showed that Ssd exhibits a variety of pharmacological and immunomodulatory activities including anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial, anti-viral and anti-cancer effects. In the current study we have investigated the effects of Ssd on activated mouse T lymphocytes through the NF-kappaB, NF-AT and AP-1 signaling pathways, cytokine secretion, and IL-2 receptor expression. The results demonstrated that Ssd not only suppressed OKT3/CD28-costimulated human T cell proliferation, it also inhibited PMA, PMA/Ionomycin and Con A-induced mouse T cell activation in vitro. The inhibitory effect of Ssd on PMA-induced T cell activation was associated with down-regulation of NF-kappaB signaling through suppression of IKK and Akt activities. In addition, Ssd suppressed both DNA binding activity and the nuclear translocation of NF-AT and activator protein 1 (AP-1) of the PMA/Ionomycin-stimulated T cells. The cell surface markers like IL-2 receptor (CD25) were also down-regulated together with decreased production of pro-inflammatory cytokines of IL-6, TNF-alpha and IFN-gamma. These results indicate that the NF-kappaB, NF-AT and AP-1 (c-Fos) signaling pathways are involved in the T cell inhibition evoked by Ssd, so it can be a potential candidate for further study in treating T cell-mediated autoimmune conditions.
Saikosaponin D is a saponin extract derived from several species of Bupleurum (Umbelliferae), which is used for the treatment of various liver diseases in traditional Chinese medicine. In this study, we report that Saikosaponin D inhibits the cell growth of human lung cancer cell line A549 and provide a molecular understanding of this effect. The results showed that Saikosaponin D inhibited the proliferation of A549 by inducing apoptosis and blocking cell cycle progression in the G1 phase. ELISA assay showed that Saikosaponin D significantly increased the expression of p53 and p21/WAF1 protein, contributing to cell cycle arrest. An enhancement in Fas/APO-1 and its two form ligands, membrane-bound Fas ligand (mFasL) and soluble Fas ligand (sFasL), as well as Bax protein, was responsible for the apoptotic effect induced by Saikosaponin D. Taken together, our study suggests that the induction of p53 and activity of the Fas/FasL apoptotic system may participate in the antiproliferative activity of Saikosaponin D in A549 cells.
The saikosaponins in bupleurum are mainly responsible for the plant's medicinal activities. In vitro studies indicate saikosaponins have antiinflammatory effects by inhibiting arachidonic acid metabolism (4). It also a weak antihistamine activity in animals (10). Saikosaponin-d has immunoregulatory activity by promoting interleukin-2 production and receptor expression as well as modulating T-lymphocyte function (3). Its in vitro apoptotic effect is thought to be partly mediated by increases in c-myc and p53 mRNA levels accompanied by a decrease in bcl-2 mRNA level (6)and by the inhibition of telomerase activity (9). In additon, bupleurum saponins has anti-adhesive and hemolytic activities on some solid tumor cells (5) (8). Bupleurum may also have antibiotic and antiviral properties.
The body weights of the mice in the high-dose SSd group and the E2 group were lower than that in the untreated group (P＜0.05). Conclusion: SSd has weak estrogen-like effects in mice and may be a potential phytoestrogen.
The NF-kappaB/Rel family of eukaryotic transcription factors plays an essential role in the regulation of inflammatory, antiapoptotic, and immune responses. NF-kappaB is activated by many stimuli including costimulation of T cells with ligands specific for the T-cell receptor (TCR)-CD3 complex and CD28 receptors. However, the signaling intermediates that transduce these costimulatory signals from the TCR-CD3 and CD28 surface receptors leading to nuclear NF-kappaB expression are not well defined. We now show that protein kinase C-theta (PKC-theta), a novel PKC isoform, plays a central role in a signaling pathway induced by CD3-CD28 costimulation leading to activation of NF-kappaB in Jurkat T cells. We find that expression of a constitutively active mutant of PKC-theta potently induces NF-kappaB activation and stimulates the RE/AP composite enhancer from the interleukin-2 gene. Conversely, expression of a kinase-deficient mutant or antisense PKC-theta selectively inhibits CD3-CD28 costimulation, but not tumor necrosis factor alpha-induced activation of NF-kappaB in Jurkat T cells. The induction of NF-kappaB by PKC-theta is mediated through the activation of IkappaB kinase beta (IKKbeta) in the absence of detectable IKKalpha stimulation. PKC-theta acts directly or indirectly to stimulate phosphorylation of IKKbeta, leading to activation of this enzyme. Together, these results implicate PKC-theta in one pathway of CD3-CD28 costimulation leading to NF-kappaB activation that is apparently distinct from that involving Cot and NF-kappaB-inducing kinase (NIK). PKC-theta activation of NF-kappaB is mediated through the selective induction of IKKbeta, while the Cot- and NIK-dependent pathway involves induction of both IKKalpha and IKKbeta. PMID: 10733597 = http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
Protein kinase C (PKC)-theta, one of several PKC isoenzymes expressed in T cells, is vital for T-cell antigen receptor (TCR)-mediated T-cell activation. However, it is not required during TCR-dependent thymocyte development. The activation of NF-kappa-B by TCR triggering involves a PKC-theta-dependent upstream signalling pathway that leads to the degradation of I-kappa-B-alpha but is separate from pathways used by TNF and IL-1 receptor family members. It must still be established whether the distinct pathways converge in the activation of elements of the I-kappa-B kinase complex.
Protein kinase C (PKC) is a family of serine/threonine kinases that plays crucial roles in signal transduction. Members of the PKC family are divided into three groups based on their molecular structures and activating mechanisms: 1) Conventional PKC (alpha, beta, and gamma) requiring calcium, phosphatidylserine (PS), and diacylglycerol (DG) for activation; 2) novel PKC (sigma, epsilon, eta, and theta) activated independent of calcium; and 3) Atypical PKC (zeta and lamda), which are independent of both calcium and DG. High-level expression of PKC-theta was found in skeletal muscle, lung, T cells, and brain, and minimal expression in cardiac muscle, placenta, and liver. PKC theta is a autophosphorylated protein kinase.
PKC-theta knockout mice are protected from fat-induced insulin resistance.
Insulin resistance plays a primary role in the development of type 2 diabetes and may be related to alterations in fat metabolism. Recent studies have suggested that local accumulation of fat metabolites inside skeletal muscle may activate a serine kinase cascade involving protein kinase C-theta (PKC-theta), leading to defects in insulin signaling and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. To test this hypothesis, we examined whether mice with inactivation of PKC-theta are protected from fat-induced insulin resistance in skeletal muscle. Skeletal muscle and hepatic insulin action as assessed during hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamps did not differ between WT and PKC-theta KO mice following saline infusion. A 5-hour lipid infusion decreased insulin-stimulated skeletal muscle glucose uptake in the WT mice that was associated with 40-50% decreases in insulin-stimulated tyrosine phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate-1 (IRS-1) and IRS-1-associated PI3K activity. In contrast, PKC-theta inactivation prevented fat-induced defects in insulin signaling and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. In conclusion, our findings demonstrate that PKC-theta is a crucial component mediating fat-induced insulin resistance in skeletal muscle and suggest that PKC-theta is a potential therapeutic target for the treatment of type 2 diabetes.
CONCLUSION: SSd attenuates CCl(4)-induced hepatic fibrosis in rats, which may be related to its effects of hepato-protective and anti-inflammation properties, the down-regulation of liver TNF-alpha, IL-6 and NF-kappaBp65 expression and the increased I-kappaBalpha activity in liver.
posted
Saponins are also in other plants, such as cats claw, which in the form of Samento is used by some doctors (and patients) to treat lyme.
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Marnie
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posted
MAYBE EVEN MORE SPECIFIC kind of saponin FROM THAT PLANT?
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Dawn in VA
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Member # 9693
posted
Wonder what it does with IL-10 and IL-8, if anything?
So if we could combine the protein/peptide in those lizards with a saponin... ...and get Candace Pert to work with Lyme, too...
Hunky dory!
[ 08-14-2009, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Dawn in VA ]
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Marnie
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posted
PLEASE KEEP THIS POST UP SO NO ONE MISSES IT.
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Dawn in VA
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Member # 9693
posted
Marnie, sorry that you're so sore! Thank you for typing despite!
In lieu of HA for joints, maybe this (while we're on the topic). Used for horses normally, but seems harmless enough:
Yucca Saponin is an herb that is used to naturally support joint health/promote comfort in older horses or any horse suffering from stiffness and soreness. Yucca Saponin contains 10% Yucca Schidigera extract. May reduce inflammation associated with normal daily exercise and activity.
Maybe our moms were trying to heal us with they put soap in our mouth! (saponins again)
(Marnie, you know I am so NOT making light of your post. I am just bumping it up top again.)
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Bugg
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posted
I don't really understand how its mode of action is different from that of Curcumin which is being studied in liver disease, cancer, alzheimer's and other diseases?????
Thought you might find this of interest:
ABSTRACT
Curcumin and saikosaponin a, the bioactive phytochemicals of turmeric and Bupleurum, act as antioxidants. This study investigated the effects of supplementation with curcumin and/or saikosaponin a on hepatic lipids and antioxidant status in rats with CCl4-induced liver injury.
Male Sprague-Dawley rats were randomly divided into control, CCl4, CCl4 + curcumin (0.005%; CU), CCl4 + saikosaponin a (0.004%; SS), and CCl4 + curcumin + saikosaponin a (0.005% + 0.004%; CU+SS) groups. CCl4 (40% in olive oil) was injected intraperitoneally at a dose of 0.75 mL/kg once a week. Curcumin and/or saikosaponin a was administered orally 1 week before CCl4 injection for 8 weeks. The pathological results showed that liver fibrosis was ameliorated in the SS and CU+SS groups.
After 8 weeks, supplementation with curcumin and/or saikosaponin a significantly decreased plasma alanine aminotransferase and aspartate aminotransferase activities, as well as plasma and hepatic cholesterol and triglyceride levels. The CU+SS group showed reversal of the impaired hepatic superoxide dismutase activity and an increase in total glutathione level. Supplementation with curcumin and/or saikosaponin a significantly improved hepatic antioxidant status and suppressed malondialdehyde formation.
Therefore, supplementation with curcumin and/or saikosaponin a protects against CCl4-induced liver injury by attenuating hepatic lipids and lipid peroxidation and enhancing antioxidant defense. Curcumin and saikosaponin a had no additive effects on hepatoprotection except for greater improvement in the total glutathione level and antioxidant status.
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seekhelp
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Member # 15067
posted
I don't understand any of this post...lol. I just saw the title and got so excited. Then I read it and said 'darn - lost as can be.'
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Lymeorsomething
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posted
Yes, why can't the cure be Yoo-Hoo or something?
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LisaS
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posted
I'm with Seekhelp. I keep rereading it. Is it the same chemical in it that is in cat's claw?
posted
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
Lyme or something I'm with you. LoL
That is too much.
You know when they do find a quick fix it will be
something simple like that! Marnie thanks and get
well soon. We miss your brain. LOL
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Hi,
I think it would really help if Marnie would put the medical links with her discoveries.
1: J Cell Biochem. 2009 May 15;107(2):303-15. Links Mechanistic study of saikosaponin-d (Ssd) on suppression of murine T lymphocyte activation.Wong VK, Zhou H, Cheung SS, Li T, Liu L. Hong Kong Baptist University, Kowloon, Hong Kong.
Saikosaponin-d (Ssd) is a triterpene saponin derived from the medicinal plant, Bupleurum falcatum L. (Umbelliferae). Previous findings showed that Ssd exhibits a variety of pharmacological and immunomodulatory activities including anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial, anti-viral and anti-cancer effects. In the current study we have investigated the effects of Ssd on activated mouse T lymphocytes through the NF-kappaB, NF-AT and AP-1 signaling pathways, cytokine secretion, and IL-2 receptor expression. The results demonstrated that Ssd not only suppressed OKT3/CD28-costimulated human T cell proliferation, it also inhibited PMA, PMA/Ionomycin and Con A-induced mouse T cell activation in vitro. The inhibitory effect of Ssd on PMA-induced T cell activation was associated with down-regulation of NF-kappaB signaling through suppression of IKK and Akt activities. In addition, Ssd suppressed both DNA binding activity and the nuclear translocation of NF-AT and activator protein 1 (AP-1) of the PMA/Ionomycin-stimulated T cells. The cell surface markers like IL-2 receptor (CD25) were also down-regulated together with decreased production of pro-inflammatory cytokines of IL-6, TNF-alpha and IFN-gamma. These results indicate that the NF-kappaB, NF-AT and AP-1 (c-Fos) signaling pathways are involved in the T cell inhibition evoked by Ssd, so it can be a potential candidate for further study in treating T cell-mediated autoimmune conditions. 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
PMID: 19301261 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related articles Saikosaponin-d inhibits T cell activation through the modulation of PKCtheta, JNK, and NF-kappaB transcription factor. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2005 Dec 30; 338(4):1920-7. Epub 2005 Nov 11. [Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2005] Inhibitory effect of anethole on T-lymphocyte proliferation and interleukin-2 production through down-regulation of the NF-AT and AP-1. Toxicol In Vitro. 2006 Oct; 20(7):1098-105. Epub 2006 Mar 13. [Toxicol In Vitro. 2006] Kalopanaxsaponin A inhibits PMA-induced invasion by reducing matrix metalloproteinase-9 via PI3K/Akt- and PKCdelta-mediated signaling in MCF-7 human breast cancer cells. Carcinogenesis. 2009 Jul; 30(7):1225-33. Epub 2009 May 6. [Carcinogenesis. 2009] Immunosuppressive effect of 2-amino-1-methyl-6-phenylimidazo[4,5-b]pyridine (PhIP) through the inhibition of T-lymphocyte proliferation and IL-2 production. Toxicology. 2006 Jan 5; 217(1):31-8. Epub 2005 Sep 15. [Toxicology. 2006] Immunosuppressive activity of endovanilloids: N-arachidonoyl-dopamine inhibits activation of the NF-kappa B, NFAT, and activator protein 1 signaling pathways. J Immunol. 2004 Feb 15; 172(4):2341-51. [J Immunol. 2004] � See reviews... | � See all... Recent Activity Clear Turn Off Turn On Immunosuppressive activity of endovanilloids: N-arachidonoyl-dopamine inhibits activation ...Immunosuppressive activity of endovanilloids: N-arachidonoyl-dopamine inhibits activation of the NF-kappa B, NFAT, and activator protein 1 signaling pathways.Mechanistic study of saikosaponin-d (Ssd) on suppression of murine T lymphocyte activation...Mechanistic study of saikosaponin-d (Ssd) on suppression of murine T lymphocyte activation.Corticosterone secretion-inducing activity of saikosaponin metabolites formed in the alime...Corticosterone secretion-inducing activity of saikosaponin metabolites formed in the alimentary tract.The proliferative inhibition and apoptotic mechanism of Saikosaponin D in human non-small ...The proliferative inhibition and apoptotic mechanism of Saikosaponin D in human non-small cell lung cancer A549 cells.
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bettyg
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posted
to life,
on your above post, would you break that up into ONE SENTENCE PER PARAGRAPH since it's so darn technical
and double space between each paragraph and the rest of what is above? thx; otherwise we have to give up.
marnie, as your hand heels, would you show the name of this DRUG in subject line? huge help to all. thx all
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
BettyG,
Note, Marnie has posted many times that her posts are for the benefit of scientists watching this website and not for the typical member. She said they are working hard to cure Lyme.
Therefore, I'm doubtful she is going to take the time to make the posts 'neuro-Lyme' friendly. She knows only a few, if any others, here have the capability to understand this stuff. Don't worry, I am not in the elite class either. lol. Would you possibily honestly comprehend her posts if they were one-line sentances? 99% of us don't.
I'm thankful she's trying to help us all. Sometimes I wish they was the 'for average not so smart people' dumbed-down post with 2 paragraphs instead of the cryptic stuff, but beggars can't be choosers. How many other healthy people try to help Lyme sufferers?
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Vermont_Lymie
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posted
Don't worry about not being able to comprehend technical biochemistry abstracts;
For example a sentence like this early one from the abstract Marnie posted, which looks like 2 different abstracts put together:
"Ssd not only suppressed OKT3/CD28-costimulated human T cell proliferation, it also inhibited PMA, PMA/Ionomycin and Con A-induced mouse T cell activation"
Who but a biochemist is going to know what PMA/lonomycin and Con A-induced T cell activation is, and their implications for human health?
This stuff inhibits mouse T-cell activity. Which might be good for inflammation, but don't we want T-cell activity for our immune response to germs?
I would not be too quick to call this a cure. Just more interesting research on the immune system through rodent studies that demonstrate how little research is being done currently on curing/treating lyme disease, the most common vector-borne disease in the US.
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IckyTicky
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posted
I'm not smart enough to comprehend any of that. lol
If someone understands, can you put it in simple mode? I understand this is mostly for scientists and those trying to find cures and the best ways of treatment.
Is there a supplement/herb I can buy that goes with the above information? As in.. tell me what to order! Specifically
-------------------- IGM: 18+, 23+, 30+, 31+++, 34+, 39IND, 41++, 58+++, 66+, 83-93IND IGG: 31+, 39IND, 41+ Also positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae and RMSF. Whole family of 5 dx with Lyme. Posts: 1014 | From Texas | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
I have a Mensa card and I don't understand it .... understanding it has nothing to do with being smart or not, it has everything to do with being educated in the subject matter so you understand the terminology.
So, if it's not in Samento (which did little for me), then what is it in?
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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seekhelp
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Member # 15067
posted
How many scientists are on this site? Always wondered.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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I'm sorry. Not only is this basically incomprehensible, it only refers to anti-inflammation.
Vermont_lymie is correct, we WANT to boost he immune system. If one has auto-immune induced arthritis, you would want to suppress the immune system.
So this doesn't make sense as a lyme cure. It's the opposite. It's why treating RA makes lyme worse.
Note the conclusion:
"... and anti-inflammation properties"
They claim It works in rats, mice and, which is a LOOOONG way from working with humans.
To Life's posts conclusion is this:
"... T cell inhibition evoked by Ssd, so it can be a potential candidate for further study in treating T cell-mediated autoimmune conditions."
And even then it's only a "potential candidate for further study". Pretty weak.
I'm sorry to throw ice-water on this. There will ALWAYS be people trying to get rich on the misery and desperation from others.
James
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Marnie
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posted
Note it is a D form - saikosaponin-d
Saikosaponin-d (Ssd) is a triterpene saponin derived from the medicinal plant, Bupleurum falcatum L. (Umbelliferae).
Different saponin (as compared to Cat's Claw and others).
While most of you do not understand this, your LLMD should catch on which is why I asked you to
***give the info. to your LLMDs.***
I really think it might work. I am VERY excited.
I'm trying to contact supplement companies to get them interested.
BTW...horse lovers...George Eby uses gallium nitrate on his lame horses...ummm...
Nitrate can be hard on the kidneys and dangerous (orally), hence gallium matolate (new Rx, in trials for cancer) might also someday offer a Rx alternative.
There IS more than one way to rid this pathogen. I'm trying hard to find the safest, cheapest, fastest, most effective cure for the masses.
(Wrist a little better today, but have to limit computer time...darn.)
I think a bad habit of mine (I'm not perfect!)contributed to lowering my hyaluronic acid level -> tendinitis.
BTW...saikosaponin-d might also impact weight (help to lose)...those of you who put on pounds as a result of lyme...heads up.
Ketones?
Did any of you follow the links to coconut oil and AD? Woman DOCTOR gave her AD husband CO and it helped...after she researched the link to the new AD drugs impacting ketones (which substitute for glucose to supply the brain with energy).
The cure is to suppress the immune response AND hit Bb at the same time.
The above is why Romanian docs were able to cure lyme with IV Mg (restoring levels) AND IV abx. Mg is an anti-inflammatory and anti-histamine and is needed for us to make ATP. It is the ONLY mineral that is attached to our ATP as Mg-ATP...to help transfer phosphate groups.
Extremely simplified: ATP-> ADP -> ATP. Lose phosphates, add them back on. Pure energy is released in the process.
saikosaponin-d impacts PKA (turns it off)...this is critical.
Doxy modifies the immune response too! It binds Ca and helps to prevent Ca from activating PKC (which Bb is inhibiting). Doxy DOES help you to feel better...and I totally understand the fight for non-stop abx, but also recognize the dangers. However, abx. ALONE don't work.
Impacting Ca alone is not enough. Bb uses Na too for its Na-ATPase (ATP-> cAMP = PPi...simplified greatly)and NaCl for motility.
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Marnie,
On a serious note, you need to give the pub med. articles, science on line etc.. which you are using their credit.
Just because someone has Lyme doesn't make us stupid.
You are just copying alot of what you write from medical reasearch.
You need to give the researcher's their creditability don't you think?
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Dear Betty,
The article I wrote is from pub med where Marnie gets her research from.
The MD's that do the reserch need the credit. They are the one's that worked on it. It is easy for any of us to copy this or that.
But it's not right to act like it came from you when it didn't.
Betty their are serious copywrite laws.
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Finding the right clues and piecing them together is critical to finding a cure.
Many of our inventions come from known substances, known facts...just assembled differently.
"The greatest crisis facing us is a crisis in the organization and accessibility of human knowledge. We own an enormous `encyclopedia' which isn't even arranged alphabetically. Our `file cards' are spilled on the floor. The answers we want may be buried in the heap." -Robert Heinlein
I've been trying to find the answer which IS buried in the heap.
A LOT of research...is very recent. Thanks to genetic info. now, we know a LOT more. This only happened in the last few years.
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
So what can I buy or is this just a study or something? Sorry, but I don't understand most of what Marnie posts but I don't follow this board like most others. My fault, not hers.
So, can I buy something that she's talking about??? You know how desperate I am
Posts: 63 | From Hell - Or at least it feels like it, Oh, I mean Tampa, FL. OOOps! :D | Registered: May 2009
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sutherngrl
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Member # 16270
posted
Tolife, I don't care if she copies information or not. If she can piece it all together and come up with the answers then more power to her!
Keep it up Marnie!
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Dear Marnie,
Are you, or your sister getting better???
I was given no hope, but I am getting my life back.
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posted
Oops, doublechecked the cats claw info, and it turns out the one with saponins is another plant with the same common name, in the legume family, also a vine in the tropics. Not the cats claw that is used in samento.
However, there are many herbivores that feed on plants in the tropics, including insects of various types, so many tropical plants have developed chemical defenses, that are sometimes used in human medicine. But the field is inadequately explored, at the same time the tropical forests are being destroyed.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Dear Sutherngrl,
We need the whole abstract's to stop the chaos and confusion.
Maybe you don't care but I do, so do researcher's.
Dawn in VA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9693
posted
Everyone, I can't speak for Marnie here, but I never take her posts to mean "go here, buy this, take that" (with the magic five being one possible exception).
I think that's why here, for example, she is advising to provide our LLMD's with this post's information.
[ 08-15-2009, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Dawn in VA ]
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Marine said; "The above is why Romanian docs were able to cure lyme with IV Mg (restoring levels) AND IV abx. Mg is an anti-inflammatory and anti-histamine and is needed for us to make ATP. It is the ONLY mineral that is attached to our ATP as Mg-ATP...to help transfer phosphate groups."
How many patients were 'cured' by these Romanians?
How long were they followed?
Was this repeated?
How do they know these patients were cured?
After all, Eugene Shapiro and Allen Steere say their patients have been cured too.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pinelady
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Member # 18524
posted
OK I understand you old biddies. Just kidding.
C'mon laugh. I am doing coconut oil what about it?
Have you tried that stuff. NAASSTTYYY.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
I thought is was Manganese not Magnesium for the T's.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I love coconut oil and have used it for over a decade .... I still got sicker. It's a good product, yes, and my habitual use of it, onions, and garlic could be a significant part of the reason candida was never a problem for me throughout Lyme treatment, but it wasn't the cure either.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Abxnomore
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posted
Nomoremuscles Ditto!
I'm not sure how that study really helps us. How do we apply it to the practical realities of our lives and given that we are not doctors and depend on doctors to dispense care, if we are lucky enough to even get it.
If the Romanians had the cure for Lyme wouldn't we be hearing more about this. Wouldn't the ILADS organization be looking into this?
Do we know how debilitated the Romanian patients were, if they stayed well and how many were cured? Do we know if this is standard Lyme treatment Lyme in Romania? May be we should find out.
Have others duplicated their protocol with success? There is much Lyme research coming out of Europe. Are those researchers not aware of
this Romanian success? If so, why not? Are the Brorson's of Norway who are so involved in Lyme research totally unaware of this, too?
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Pinelady
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posted
Hey if birth control pills reduce manganese can we take them and hit them where it hurts? I didn't mean there.
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Pinelady
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Member # 18524
posted
Abx if history repeats like it was in the 80's we
won't know it for another 10 years. But I love this
brain stormin. Maybe something will click. Lets Go.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marnie
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posted
We aren't supposed to know nutrients can cure diseases too. The right ones, the right amounts at the right time.
The link to the Romanian abstract was sent to me privately as PubMed mentions it, but won't/doesn't post it.
"Tetracycline acts in a manner analogous to the normal rRNA regulator molecule (very likely ppGpp) at the transcriptional level."
On this website the link is not allowed due to ( ) in it. To find it...just Google that sentence.
Translation: Tetracycline acts LIKE ppGpp
and Mg stabilizes ppGpp.
It's the combination. Restore Mg levels AND give abx. IV doses of both are needed for several days to eliminate Bb (as they did in Romania).
That is only one possible way to rid Bb...other ways do exist also.
This is what I think maybe happening:
It appears tetracycline may increase ppGpp which triggers Mg transporters and the influx of amino acids into the cells being starved of amino acids due to the presence of Bb which is using our amino acids to build his cell wall.
What happens if Mg levels are too low...if sufficient Mg is not "available"?
Remember...I found this (stated and linked above):
"magnesium ion bound to ppGpp phosphates,
***stabilizing the ppGpp-RNA-polymerase complex***"
Is that why the Romanian doctors found giving IV Mg (restoring levels) along with IV abx. worked?
Does that combination restore the functioning of our defense cells...send in depleted amino acids - increasing/decreasing ppGpp via tetracycline WHILE restoring Mg to stabilize the ppGpp RNA polymerase complex?
[ 08-17-2009, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
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glm1111
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posted
Curing Lyme is a multidimensional approach given all of the infections that we are dealing with. It requires antibacteriocides, antifungals, antiparasitics etc.
At the same time we have to build up the immune system. To say just One thing is the CURE is just not realistic. If these scientists are just focusing on chasing bb, then they must be sound asleep.
All that jargon means nothing and proves nothing and for it to be posted here is silly. Educating scientists?? I don't get the point.
Sorry, Marnie, I know you mean well, but it just creates to much drama to say that this or that is a "CURE." The best we can hope for is to put this disease from hell in remission,
Gael
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Marnie
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posted
I strongly disagree.
Lyme can be cured. Others HAVE recovered completely and are not in just "remission".
We must get the WORSE pathogen...the "leader" FIRST.
Like HIV...that viral infection triggers other infections to happen.
We are in agreement about building up the immune system. Mg (IV MgCl is the only way) does that. Go to the links I provided just above your post Gael.
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Pinelady
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posted
OK so you are saying if we hit them with the
Magnesium it will allow the penetration of the TX
to work? Check this out when you have time. And
if you can tell me how much we should be taking safely.
In addition to Vit C and magnesium chloride, I also suggest the use of a high-grade colloidal silver solution whenever flu or any other viral infection is present. One of the best brands on the market today is "Sovereign Silver" hydrosol, available from www.fruitfulyielddirect.com. Whenever infection is present, take 1 tsp of colloidal silver and hold it under the tongue for 30 seconds, once every hour until symptoms are gone. This should be done in conjuction with high-dose vitamin C and magnesium chloride therapy. For even better results, try to get intravenous vitamin C treatment, 20 grams daily for 7-10 days. A good supply source of magnesium chloride fluid is www.globallight.net
[ii] Campbell's recommendation: Begin increasing the amount of vitamin C that you take each day to very high levels, spread over the course of the day, in divided doses taken with meals. Start at 1000 mg per meal, and increase slowly to 2000-4000 mg per meal. (These are adult doses, modify by body weight for children.) Your optimal dose is just below the point where your body complains by giving you mild diarrhea. This is called the "bowel tolerance dose." Such doses are perfectly safe - vitamin C is natural to our bodies and needed for many body processes. Most people don't get nearly enough. Stock up on this vital nutrient - buy in powder form, 1-pound or 3-pound canisters (ascorbic acid form). Mix with water or fruit juice. Be sure to take vitamin C with food that will coat your stomach to prevent stomach upset, such as organic soymilk. www.cqs.com/influenza.htm
[iii] Dr. Klenner used massive doses of Vitamin C for over forty years of family practice. He wrote dozens of medical papers on the subject. A complete list of them is in the Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C, edited by Lendon H. Smith, M.D., Life Sciences Press, Tacoma, WA (1988).
[iv] The Treatment of Poliomyelitis and Other Virus Diseases with Vitamin C: Klenner, Southern Medicine & Surgery, July, 1949 "The treatment employed [in the poliomyelitis epidemic in North Carolina in 1948, 60 cases] was vitamin C in massive doses... given like any other antibiotic every two to four hours. The initial dose was 1000 to 2000 mg., depending on age. Children up to four years received the injections intramuscularly ... For patients treated in the home the dose schedule was 2000 mg. by needle every six hours, supplemented by 1000 to 2000 mg. every two hours by mouth ... dissolved in fruit juice. All patients were clinically well after 72 hours. Where spinal taps were performed, it was the rule to find a reversion of the fluid to normal after the second day of treatment.
[v] A commentary in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine (Madjid et al. 2003) noted that influenza is readily transmissible by aerosol and that a small number of viruses can cause a full-blown infection. The authors continued: "the possibility for genetic engineering and aerosol transmission [of influenza] suggests an enormous potential for bioterrorism" The possible hostile abuse of influenza virus is seen as a very real threat by public health officials in the USA. $15 million was granted by the US National Institutes of Health to Stanford University to study how to guard against the flu virus "if it were to be unleashed as an agent of bioterrorism". Stanford University News Release 17 September 2003, mednews.stanford.edu/news_releases_html/2003/septrelease/bioterror%20flu.htm
[vi] The resurrection of 1918 influenza has plunged the world closer to a flu pandemic and to a biodefense race scarcely separable from an offensive one, according to the Sunshine Project, a biological weapons watchdog. "There was no compelling reason to recreate 1918 flu and plenty of good reasons not to. Instead of a dead bug, now there are live 1918 flu types in several places, with more such strains sure to come in more places," says Sunshine Project Director Edward Hammond, "The US government has done a great misdeed by endorsing and encouraging the deliberate creation of extremely dangerous new viruses. The 1918 experiments will be replicated and adapted, and the ability to perform them will proliferate, meaning that the possibility of man-made disaster, either accidental or deliberate, has risen for the entire world."
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: This article is intended for informational purposes only. Nothing in this email is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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richedie
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posted
But, what if your Lyme systems are auto-immune????
Your immune system could have gone so out of whack from Lyme that it is now basically running on auto-pilot?
Hence, this is how they feel I ended up with a blood condition called MGUS, from the infection.
Kind of like a chain reaction. So, the auto-immune issue does hold an interest for us.
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quote: We are in agreement about building up the immune system. Mg (IV MgCl is the only way) does that. Go to the links I provided just above your post Gael.
Those links are rather scarce in any actual studies. I don't deny that MgCl might be useful or anything , but there needs to be more proof.Actually given that so many people do IV here there must be someone who tried MgCL+tetracylcines
And btw one post you talk about inflammatory response and how its the root of all evil with BB and the other day this.
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Marnie
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posted
Can "autoimmune" be cured? I think so.
"Magnesium for autoimmune" U.S. patent by an Italian doc named Valletta. I've posted it on this website.
Valletta used Mg pyrophosphate (=PPi) + sublingual B6 (= under the tongue 'cause stomach acids destroy it) to cure RA, ulcerative colitis and invasive bowel cancer in 3 months time.
He jumpstarted the process with IV Mg.
I do not know how/where to get MgPyrophosphate.
I've tried.
Sublingual B6 helps control Na levels (Bb needs Na).
MgCl restores a severe drop in our intracellular levels which happens very fast at the outset of lyme according to the Romanian abstract and Mg levels continues to spiral down.
Mg is working ***in conjuction with*** tetracycline to STABILIZE ppGpp.
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Marnie
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posted
IL1 B and TNF alpha (inflammatory cytokines) ongoing WILL lead to cancer. IL 1 B is really bad (esp.). Do you know the impact of IL 1 B on pancreatic B cells?
Pancreatic cancer...I know a lyme patient who developed this...ultimately. It is one of the worse cancers to face.
"The possession of a genotype resulting in
***increased IL-1b production***
was associated with shortened survival and increased serum CRP level.
This may reflect the role of IL-1b in inducing an acute phase protein response and cachexia in cancer or may be related to changes in tumour phenotye."
Pathogens, toxins, and/or ongoing inflammation do lead to cancer...eventually.
I've even heard that said on TV.
Inflammation IS part of the healing process, but it is supposed to shut off.
When it doesn't...we're in trouble.
Bb triggers ONGOING inflammation.
The Romanians likely gave a LOT of IV Mg on several subsequent days along with the IV abx. And in the case of the 2 Romanian patients with lyme...this was at the OUTSET of lyme for them. It may take even longer if the disease has been present for a long time.
If my math serves me correctly...the drop in Mg levels compared to the initial levels = 33% which needed to be restored.(Romanian abstract).
That is a LOT. It oddly is the amt. in our muscle cells. So we may not use Mg stored in more "vital" cells initially.
I think we didn't have "enough" Mg to spare fast enough.
I often wondered why the huge stores of Mg in our liver weren't used.
Mg-ATP in liver cells may help that critical organ to regenerate as needed.
Once again...Mg IS an "anti-inflammatory" and "anti-histamine", it inactivates HMG Co A reductase and puts the brakes on the cholesterol pathway which IS one of the pathways Bb takes. It IS needed to make healthy antibodies...esp. to Bb's OspB.
I've documented and linked all of this so many times.
Richie...look up the links between IL 1 B and multiple myeloma.
If you need help...I've got files on that. Neighbor's mom and brother died from it. She is closely monitored as there maybe a genetic link.
Every drug we take depletes nutrients ALSO...in addition to those Bb is depleting.
The impact of so many abx. and other drugs on the liver and kidneys which have to "detox" the drugs is astounding. Man...we really stress our "detox" organs.
Not to mention the damage done to our "good bacteria" in our gut.
When we lose the good bacteria, we lose a lot of weight and go into severe depression.
I know...for fact...as it happened to my son following food poisoning...followed by an appendectomy and ANTIBIOTICS post op. He ended up with almost a "sterile" bowel and was very very sick. He couldn't digest any food. Throwing up. Severely depressed. Lost a lot of weight. Became calcium intolerant.
His neurotransmitters and mineral levels (tested) were really messed up. His stool test sent to a lab in Illinois showed virtually no bacteria left in his bowel.
Before anything else...massive probiotics first.
Then slowly rebuilding.
Mind-gut connection. Gotta keep the gut healthy!
There IS more than one way to cure lyme. Rife w/ supp. Mg, Infrared w/ supp. Mg, Benicar in high doses (makes me nervous though), Li helps, gallium maltolate might work someday (new Rx and in trials), the "magic five" might work, HBO - 40 dives minimum + Pycnogenol likely can work as reported to me by a doctor in my town. And yea...colloidal silver though it makes me nervous too...I don't like to use anything we can't rid from our bodies. We need trace amts. of gallium, trace amts. of lithium...so they are more "acceptable" approaches from my point of view.
I think saikosaponin-d might work. A long time ago there was great hope Cat's Claw might work. It helped, but didn't cure...wrong form of a saponin?
Whatever route you decide to take...remember it takes a long time to clear the infection and restore the balance. Do NOT expect immediate results. And above all...keep pumping in lots of good probiotics of various kinds.
[ 08-14-2009, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
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glm1111
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posted
Marnie,
I was a patient at the Jefferson Hospital outpatient headache center approx 7-8 yrs ago. They give IV magnesium for migraines.
I was given many doses for many months of IV magnesium and they didn't touch this infection.
Prior to that my LLMD gave me IM magnesium (1,000mg) which I injected myself. I was also on orals antibiotics as well as IV rocephin.
It wasn't until I started antiparasitic herbs and salt/c did I get any relief. I have personally experienced the parasites/worms pictured on lymephotos exit my body into the toilet.
I am a big proponent of immune building nutrition which I have done for yrs, but that alone did not even start to touch this kind of infection.
Parasites lay eggs and larva,(200,000 eggs a day)so there is no way to be sure that just one egg isn't hiding in the intestinal crevices.
GiGi used to post about this a lot and if you do a search here about the parasite/worm connection under her name it will give you more insight.
Then of course, there is bb, mycoplasma, and all of the co-infections.
To use the word "CURE" is just not realistic. Sorry, I just don't believe there is "ONE" magick bullet, I wish to God there was,
Gael
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glm1111
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posted
Hi abxnomore,
Are you taking any herbs or anything for maintenance? Are you totally symptom free? Very glad to hear you are well.
Gael
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Marnie
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Member # 773
posted
At Jefferson Hospital were you given DAILY IV doses of MgChloride AND IV abx?
Timing matters. DAILY IV doses of IV MgCl needed on MANY subsequent days...not every other day...not just once a week.
Along with IV abx.
As I said...it may take many many days...weeks...months...to rid this infection if it is longstanding.
The kidneys maintain our pH balance and the amt. of the minerals in our body.
Excess minerals are excreted.
"Antibiotics: Besides destroying
beneficial gut bacteria that aid digestion, protect against infection, and synthesize certain nutrients,
tetracyclines (achromycin, sumycin, tetracap, panmycin), penicillins, ***cephalosporins***, fluoroquinolones, and sulfonamides,
deplete the body of B1, B2, B3, B6, B12, biotin, inositol, vitamin K, iron,
ALL humans have SOME forms of worms/parasites...yet we are not all deathly sick from them!
We also have yeast in our digestive system. It is supposed to be there...just in THAT location.
It is a matter of balance.
Some people believe our too sterile environment - focus on excessive cleanliness - prevents us from mounting adequate immune defense.
Newborns have sterile bowels. It is the antibodies in mom's milk (colostrum) that are needed to protect the infant from diseases until their levels of the beneficial bacteria, yeast, etc. increase and set up "house-keeping".
Destroying all your bowel flora with ongoing "cleanses" is not a good idea IMO.
Esp. on top of what abx. does to the normal flora and nutrients.
Parasites and worms are nothing compared to battling C diff.
There are a lot of "alternative" therapies and testing suggestions that are, IMO, worthless and potentially harmful and do nothing more than make some people very wealthy.
Some DO have merit...but not all.
I hope you don't get a Sputnik capsule ($64) stuck in your throat...as one did:
Have all your silver fillings removed by a trained dentist yet? How much did it cost you?
I have never ever reaped one CENT from my research and/or suggestions and I promise I never will, but others (plural) have "benefitted"...I'll leave it at that.
People come and go...sometimes they re-appear under different names too if they have been kicked off this board.
Maybe I'm gullible, but I believe people who have told me they have RECOVERED COMPLETELY using various methods. They are NOT simply in remission.
A cure IS possible and it is possible via a few very different approaches.
When someone reports something WORKS...I try to figure out WHY and HOW it works and plug it into what I know about Bb.
But I also evaluate the "safety" of that recommendation.
I believe Wildcondor, Bryan, and others who say they have recovered...some as a result of HBO, Rife, high doses of Benicar, etc.
Unfortunately, although Wildcondor did clear Bb (and attributes it to abx. + numerous HBO dives), she ended up with serious bowel issues...which is why I constantly preach to keep pumping in a LOT of probiotics.
Safety first. First Do No Harm...especially to the bowel flora.
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Marnie
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posted
For newbies...DNP is in a class with cyanide.
It was used to speed up glycolysis...to heat up the cells which DO need "de-icing". It was called intracellular hyperthermia (ICHT).
Different, but infrared maybe doing the same.
But in doing so...this depletes the electrolytes bigtime and this treatment resulted in the cardiac arrest of a lyme patient.
Hence...ICHT is no longer an available treatment. That treatment cost $20,000.
ABXNOMORE...registered this year - according to your profile - were you here under a different name when we were discussing ICHT many moons ago?
Tammi? Who took my advice and had IV Mg prior to treatment. I was really scared for her. I've often wondered how she made out.
I was suprised to see the TX lyme mom back too. Minocycline and then Benicar didn't cure her daughter? Lyme back? Oh, no! I hope not.
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Abxnomore
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before deciding to remove all of my mercury amalgams. But fortunately I made the right decision and had my amalgams removed and had IV chelation therapy to remove the many different elevated metals that were in my body. I'm glad I did so; my health improved considerably.
For the first time ever my thyroid levels finally stablized. My alternative doctor told me that until I removed the metals my thyroid mediction dose would constantly need adjusting and, in fact, he was right.
Within six months of completing my chelation therapy my thyroid medication dose stabilized, when in the past it needed constant adjustment.
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Marnie
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posted
Thyroid levels stabilized in another after Li therapy (ongoing) and the need for a thyroid supplement was discontinued.
Food for thought...nothing else.
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glm1111
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posted
Marnie,
I don't remember how often I was given IV magnesium...I would guess anywhere from 1 x a week to once per month depending on my symptoms.
I specifically remember one incident when I hallucinated for three days from it.
Hypermagnesemia which is the result of magnesium toxicity increases with kidney failure when the kidney loses it's ability to remove excess magnesium.
IV doses of magnesium given daily would be considered VERY toxic. I have never gotton my amalgams removed or swallowed a sputnick capsule. I don't see the relevance here.
Or the point of people making money on protocols, which I never have.
Also I really wasn't referring to the "normal" amount of parasites one could have, but the very dangerous infections of Filarial Worms as pictured on
If you recall Burgdorfer found adult Filarial worms in the original ticks he dissected.
Many people with compromised immune systems also have Ascaris which can grow up to 20" long, Hookworm, Tapeworm, Roundworms, Toxocara, Threadworm etc.
These all can be life threatening and hardly considered benign. As far as destroying bowel flora with "ongoing cleanses" (antiparasitics has to be done in order to get rid of some of these dangerous pathogens.
The flora is easy to replace with a good quality probiotic, and kefir or yogurt. I have not had any yeast infections since I started herbs. I am almost in remission and would never be foolish enough not to continue on a maintenance program.
I have seen many people who think they have gone into remission only to have Lyme rear it's ugly head yrs later. Common sense is a good thing,
Gael
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Abxnomore
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posted
I understand now and that is interesting. As I said there is more than one way to to skin a cat.
In my case, my medication dose has been greatly reduced since dealing with the metals but having lyme for so long, I believe, took it's toll.
I know that I am now well and healthy and my thyroid is stabilized now for many years.
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Hoosiers51
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posted
I think it is jumping the gun to use the word "cure" here.
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Abxnomore
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posted
Not when I have not had any symptoms since my treatment in mid 2003.
The kind of therapy I did was intercellular. The day I left the hospital I felt like a different person....reborn. I am sure I am cured.
Other people's situations, I am sure are different.
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Abxnomore,
I didn't read your posts, I was referring to the title of this dicussion, "Drug to Cure Lyme."
I am not sure there is enough evidence to label this a cure, in terms of it halting the disease process. Maybe I am too picky with how I use the word "cure."
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Marnie
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posted
Gael...do you think you had lyme way back when you were given IV Mg once a week for migraines?
Were you given IV Mg in the hospital without kidney function testing?
If Mg worked and if it helped to destroy Bb...perhaps the "toxins" released triggered additional brain inflammation -> hallucinations?
When all proteins are broken down (like those in Bb's outer cell walls) this -> NH3 (ammonia) which is very toxic...esp. to the brain.
Hallucinations can occur also in bipolar...which is treated with Li...the most reactive of the minerals.
Abxnomore
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Member # 18936
posted
Marnie,
I don't know the names you speak of. I didn't find the treatment thru Lymenet. I took the treatment a few months before the program ended.
$20,000 was a drop in the bucket for a two week hospital stay, included in that the cost of a family member to stay with me, and regaining my health.
Prior to that treatment I had spent well over $200,000 on treatments many of which helped but none of which cured. ABX wasn't doing it for me and I saw some of the best LLMD's.
The hospital was fully prepared with constant IV electrolyte drips, IV magnesium and every thing that was required. Not sure why you had to advise anyone on what needed to be done. The entire staff and concept behind ICHT was brilliant. I spoke to some of the cancer patients there too.
Many from different parts of Europe and the States. They were all pleased to have the chance to try ICHT. For me the outcome was great, so I found the entire experience fascinating.
I had heard after my treatment from one of the patients I kept in touch with of that sad tragedy but to my knowledge his death was not due to the DNP. Have you been privy to the autopsy report?
Unless you have, you are making a big assumption here "But in doing so...this depletes the electrolytes bigtime and this treatment resulted in the cardiac arrest of a lyme patient."
My electrolytes were not depleted nor were any of the many other Lyme patients who took the treatment. When I took my treatment, I was told that approximately 23 people had already been treated.
Ultimately everyone dies of cardiac arrest no matter what the cause of death. We all die because our heart stops working.
I received excellent care, 24/7. If I had felt at any time that the clinic was not on top of things, believe me, I would have checked out. I was treated way better than the run around I had gotten in the states for years denying I even had an illness.
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Carol in PA
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posted
Marnie said,
quote:I've documented and linked all of this so many times.
I know, and I thank you for your persistance.
It takes a while for even small things to be understood.
Carol
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glm1111
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posted
Marnie,
I have had misdiagnosed Lyme since the 70's..and probably since I was 16. The hallucinations started when I was almost finished with the IV and lasted for 3 days.
If your given something intravenously and you start hallucinating it has to be what was in the IV. I hardly think after receiving an IV of magnesium, I would be deficient at that moment.
When I told the doctor I was hallucinating ( I was angry) he acted totally annoyed and couldn't wait to get me out of there. So, no, they didn't check anything.
Same hospital that sent me home with a completely numb head when i was rushed to the ER via ambulance.
Same neuro that saw the lesions on my brain and told me they were nothing. This is such a crazy disease, who knows what could have triggered the hallucinations.
I have/had severe neuroborrelia since 1983 with head pressure that lasted for 2 yrs.
The cause ultimately is from parasites. I have seen them first hand when the lesions formed and they came through my scalp as mentioned on lymephotos.
Many people here have complained of the same symptoms of movement, crawling under their scalp. Maybe the magnesium made them go crazy..for whatever reason, who knows...that would be my guess,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Cure...maybe for some very lucky individuals...I don't think saying "cure" is premature.
Cat's Claw WAS promoted as a possible CURE for many persons (= seronegative for lyme following Cat's Claw treatment):
"However, there is GOOD NEWS! Doctor Williams cites a recent study in the USA in which 28 people suffering from severe LD were treated for 6 months.
14 of the patients received the standard doses of antibiotics.
The other 14 took doses of Cat's Claw, an herb from the Brazilian rainforest with a legendary reputation.
The result? Three of the fourteen who took antibiotics showed slight improvement.
But ALL of the 14 who took Cat's Claw showed "dramatic improvement."
***Indeed, 12 of the 14 were tested at the end of six months, and NO trace of LD remained!"***
"Lyme Disease: Nutraceutical Breakthrough Using TOA-Free Cat's Claw
Study Shows Pentacyclic Alkaloid Chemotype Uncaria tomentosa to be
Effective In Treating Chronic Lyme Disease (Lyme Borreliosis)
INVESTIGATORS: William Lee Cowden, M.D. Hamid Moayad, D.O. Joan Vandergriff, N.D. Luis Romero, M.D., Ph.D. Svetlana Ivanova, M.D., Ph.D.
Control Group: A few patients experienced slight improvement, and the rest remained with no positive change in their clinical condition at the end of study.
Experimental Group: 100% of patients experienced marked clinical improvement;
***85% were seronegative for Lyme disease at the end of study.***
"Quinic acid (QA) esters found in hot water extracts of Uncaria tomentosa (a.k.a. cat's claw) exert anti-inflammatory activity through mechanisms involving inhibition of the pro-inflammatory transcription factor nuclear factor kappa B (NF-kappaB)." PMID: 19674895 (2009)
We identified ***gammadelta T cell agonists*** derived from the condensed tannin fractions of Uncaria tomentosa (Cat's Claw) and Malus domestica (apple)... PMID: 17982035
(Me...an agonist is a HELPER)
80- 85% seronegative for lyme after using Cat's Claw was/is remarkable!!! I'd take those odds if I had lyme!
Gael...it may not have been the Mg that caused the hallucinations, but
the reaction of the pathogens in you to the Mg.
Follow?
What Mg DID TO THEM.
Massive die-off??? And you paid the price?
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
As you know, many many people are seronegative for lyme and yet actually have the disease.
That is because the blood tests are not at all sensitive for picking up lyme, and miss many if not most of the true cases.
So, 85% seronegative means they are seronegative -- it does not say anything about their lyme disease status.
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Did Cowden do a follow-up? All 85%still "cured"/remission?
Anybody know?
Seronegative refers to the absence of the specific antibodies (or other substance) that were being tested for.
We make antibodies to Bb's Osps...outer surface proteins.
Yes...remaining CWD forms are a possibility. No cell wall = no antibodies would be made.
These have to be eliminated via osmotic pressure changes or ultrasound.
Basics of microbiology...step #1 to destroy a gram negative pathogen = destroy the cell walls or prevent them from forming
THEN
step #2...osmotic pressure changes or ultrasound to "finish the job".
I suspect barometric pressure changes also impact CWD forms. There is a change in O2 levels when the barometer drops.
You're a tough bunch to convince ;-)
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Sometimes people have to find their way on their own and in their own time. There is never a one size fits all, even in medicine.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Hi Abxnomore,
Please share what treatments got you well. Were you treated for parasites too.
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Yes, it was a long while back but they used three different types of herbs for three months and then alternated with three more types of herbs using nine in total. And it took a long time to get rid of them.
They used to test by way of a anascopy where they actually took a swab of the mucosa of the lining of the colon, as the parasites adhere to the wall of the colon and do not always come out with the stool as is used in traditional testing. They
the mucosa was put on a slide and viewed under a microscope. They had some hot shot Dr. from South America analyze the specimens.
The only names I remember are Pau d'Arco, Gozarte and Udarte but there were nine in total that they used. They were all Spanish sounding names and
the product line was Planta Amica but it looks like it is no longer around.
Lots of vitamin supplementation oral and IV, tons of magnesium, IV, Oral and IM, getting rid of heavy metals, addressing adrenals..... Keeping the body alkaline, eating a diet free of junk, basically yeast free.
All the things that a good alternative doctor will do. Acupuncture, as well.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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TO LIFE
Unregistered
posted
Dear Abxnomore,
Thanks so much for sharing, I really appreciate it.
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Abx,
Thanks for the info. These doctors sound like they knew what they were doing. I agree that it is important to rotate the herbs.
Pau d'Arco is one of the herbs that is in the herbs I am taking. I heard a lot of positive things about the ICHT treatment and how it helped so many people. Too bad it's still not around.
TO LIFE,
It does take a long time to get rid of them. persistence is key,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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