Summer3
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posted
I partially started a new protocol for protomyxzoa and biofilms based on the work of Dr. C. More than one doctor strongly feels that my resistant symptoms are due to protomyxzoa and biofilms. I can't do all the meds/herbs on the list but I am doing lots of enzymes, some antibiotics, the low fat vegan diet, stopping magnesium and eventually adding artemisinin back in which I've done long-term before.
I already don't eat sugar or gluten so I was surviving on high fat to keep weight on and even that was unsuccessful. I'm getting very thin. So now eliminating eggs, meats, peanut butter, etc. is going to be a huge percentage of my calories. I have a problem eating large quantities of food at once due to shaking, getting freezing cold, faint feeling.........
How do I do this? How can I possibly keep weight on eating solely fruits, veggies, rice and oatmeal? I'm doing okay so far on gluten free rice based cereals with almond milk and brown rice veggie stir fry but long term? I don't know.......
Catgirl
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I was the same (losing weight). I couldn't ditch all the meat, so I eat a little chicken, turkey and fish. I no longer cook with oil though. I also eat lots of beans, and have upped the grains, veggies, and gluten free bread. I still feel better eating this way. The protomyxzoa thread probably has more suggestions. Also the thread: Is a low fat diet the answer, Dr. F thinks so.
Wow, I am not familiar what Dr. C has done with regards to proto, just Dr F (the man who discovered it). Is Dr. C doing something different than Dr. F.? What meds and herbs are on his list?
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Summer3
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It's a different Dr. C. than you are thinking of. This one is female. Her list includes: Alinia, Artemisinin, BAB2, Coptis Chinensis, Cumanda, Lumbrokinase, Nattokinase and other enzymes.
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Catgirl
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Ah, that Dr C! Thanks Summer!
What brand of art are you taking? I was taking liposmal, but am concerned about the oil.
Can you try eating a little bit of low fat or lean meat?
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Keebler
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- Summer,
"eating solely fruits, veggies, rice and oatmeal" sounds downright dangerous for a couple different reasons. Top concern would be that it's deficient in protein, just for starters and can cause muscle wasting (which includes the heart).
It's important to remember that a low fat diet does not mean no fat (but a low fat may not work for every body type, at all times).
For whatever reason one expert suggests something one way, if that does not work for YOUR body, there is always a way to figure out how to do it differently.
Always various approaches that can have the same desired effect but work for you, with your body / brain.
Discuss the ways around this, in your particular case, with your LLMD and see what other LLMDs and LL NDs might say about this specific approach. Compare notes with various experts as others may have patients who report similar issues and found solutions.
About magnesium - some simply need this. You might get an intracellular magnesium test to see where you stand. Still, it's a daily requirement to some degree and you need to be sure you get the right amount - not too little, not too much.
There are other ways to address biofilm besides eliminating this vital nutrient. Many other ways. -
[ 07-28-2013, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Summer3
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posted
I'm taking nutricology super artemisinin mainly for a cost concern. I alternate that with pulses of the whole Artemisia herb from 1st Chinese.
I agree Keebler about the diet. I don't know where the protein source would come from on a vegan no fat diet.
Most vegans are not also gluten and sugar free. So this diet is extremely restrictive. I am definitely going to have a difficult time following it.
I was taking 3000mg of magnesium per day to control muscle spasms and twitching. The twitching hasn't gotten significantly worse yet, but my heart palpitations have been more noticeable.
I am definitely not feeling well in terms of energy and muscle pain but I can't tell if it's from the diet, enzymes or a bee sting reaction I had this week. I woke up yesterday and today feeling like I have the flu with complete aching of my whole body. I slept for 16 hours and have things I need to do today. I feel like I could sleep around the clock and never be rested.
kgg
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posted
Far be it from me to tell you not to follow this diet, but I sure would not. I, too, agree with Keebler.
We want to kill the bugs but not the patient!
People need some fat in their diet to keep the nervous system healthy. Myelin sheves on our nerves are comprised of fats. So without it we will have a lot worse neuro symptoms.
Plus, many of us are already low on Magnesium. The American diet is already low in it because our soils are depleted of Magnesium. Many symptoms of being low in Magnesium are what we already experience so avoiding it will make it worse. Symptoms of hypomagnesia: weakness, muscle cramps, anxiety, fatigue, heart arrhythmia, poor sleep, depression, etc.
If you were a junk food junkie, then yes, you would need to alter your diet. But it sure doesn't sound like you are to me. If this was me, I would address this bug only with the meds and see how I do. FWIW.
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posted
I have been on the lower fat eating for years. Please, do not go too low. We all have our 'low' that will be normal for us. I do eat grass fed beef and then chicken/fish. My dr. Dr F, knows that I eat the meat and has no problem with it.
We have to 'fudge' this low fat thing to what we can handle.. What is good for one person count wise, might not be for the next person.
Eat! You have to eat... don't starve yourself or you won't be able to fight anything. Your taking the enzymes that break down biofilm too, so you're doing good.
I kept a notepad in my kitchen at first, to write down all fat grams for each item I ate. From a month of doing that, I figured out what I felt good with and what I didn't. Lower fat doesn't mean cutting out all foods.
I used to think I needed magnesium for years. I took extra, so when it came time to not take any, I was worried. I now haven't taken any extra mag for over 6 years and haven't noticed anything different. BUT again, we all have to find what works for our bodies.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
There have been patients of Dr F that have herxed when they go on the lower fat eating. So, sometimes, feeling worse right away can be a herx reaction too.
But again, you need to eat to live, so go slow on going down to the lower fat...whole foods.....
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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nefferdun
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posted
I have been on this diet for a year and a half. I lost weight but I was overweight to begin with. Now I am at my ideal weight and I eat all that I want.
I have found the diet is critical to my staying in remission. If you want to recover you must follow the diet as closely as possible. There is a reason for his recommendations. People who say they eat meat or more fat grams are usually not in remission. They are still doing a lot of drugs. If you want to get off the drugs, then follow the diet.
You are eliminating most fat and animal products. Meat has a lot of fat which is the unhealthy kind. You do not fry your food or use oils or butter on vegetables or anything else. This way you are getting all the nutrition without the inflammatory processed oils. You can't have nuts or seeds except in very small amounts. No nut butters.
You do eat a lot of beans, quinoa, rice, yams, vegetables, mushrooms and fruit. You eat A LOT.
As long as you keep your fat grams between 15 and 20, you can experiment with how far you can go before getting a return of symptoms. For instance, I can eat egg whites now and then.
I have no trouble with gluten, I don't believe, and I have some dairy. I have camel's milk and/or goat's milk. I have some organic low fat yogurt made from the milk from Jersey cow's instead of Holstein, which causes less allergic responses.
You could try making bread from spelt that you sprout yourself and grind yourself. Spelt is an ancient wheat that has not been modified and many people who have problems with gluten can tolerate it.
I say this with reservation because I do still get headaches that respond to migraine medication - so maybe I am sensitive to the gluten or dairy. I eat it anyway because as long as I don't go over 15 grams of fat per day, I am close to symptom free and off drugs.
When I eat more fat I get symptoms back within days and have to take the stromectol again to recover. At some point the stromectol may stop being effective or the side effects too much to tolerate - so the diet is important. I have to remind myself every day not to wander.
I compile recipes that I like and experiment. Yesterday I bought granular lecithin because one of my cook book tells how to use it to make baked things work better without the fat. This is new territory. I have baked things substituting pumpkin, grated carrot, applesauce and even refried beans for moisture instead of fat. You can use coconut palm sugar or syrup which only has a glycemic index of 35.
I take 1.5 grams of phosphytidlcholine which is an essential fat craved by all the cells of the body. I use chia seed in some things, which is full of omega 3's. It is a good thickener for salad dressings and also a good egg replacer and binder for baked goods (although I usually use egg white).
I don't recommend getting the McDougal Cook books because most of the recipes are dull and boring. You have to be prepared to learn how to cook again and spend some time preparing things from scratch. Spice really helps to make life more interesting.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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nefferdun
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One cup of lentils has 230 calories but only one gram of fat. One cup of yams has 155 calories and zero fat, so if you made the lentil yam curry and had two cups, that would be about 380 calories and only one gram of fat!
Have a big salad with thousand island dressing made with lemon or vinegar, catchup, small amount of low fat mayo and chia goo (water thickened with chia seeds). That adds about 2 grams fat from the mayo.
I make an oblong cake instead of cupcakes. I don't use the chocolate squares because they have too much fat. Instead I use 1/2 cup cocoa (4 grams fat) and one cup of coconut palm sugar. I use 3/4 cup goat's milk and 1/4 cup egg white, which has less than 2 grams fat.
The one cup of flour has 4 grams, so the entire batch has only 10 grams of fat. I don't like frosting. I eat about 1/3 of the whole thing in one sitting.
Are you beginning to see the advantages of this diet. I can eat an entire chocolate cake, a whole carton of low fat home made frozen yogurt, an entire pot of soup, home made rolls with chili. I can eat to my hearts content.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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Catgirl
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posted
Thanks Summer (I will check out that brand).
I agree, you have to fudge it a little until you find what works for you without bringing on pain, herxing, and other symptoms. Keeping a daily journal really helps to identify what you can handle. I had MASSIVE yeast last year and couldn't do this diet until my yeast improved some. I still battle yeast, but I have lots of metals to remove from my body (there's a connection).
I cannot eat much fruit without getting yeast. I had to up my gluten free grains, veggies, and include some low fat poultry and fish (just a little), and up my beans. A regular day for me is one where I usually have a quinoa porridge (like oatmeal) with only a few berries or a couple of cherries--basically a tiny amount of fruit in it. I probably shouldn't even do the fruit, but it works with compounded nystatin and diflucan.
Do you take diflucan? I think it helps cut back the biofilm somehow. I've noticed that I can become immune to it though so I pulse it some times. I also layer in yeast killers (OTC stuff and herbs).
I also have sandwiches on GF bread. Chicken, fish or bean sandwiches. If you're starving, have another bowl of quinoa porridge. This gives me all the magnesium I need (big plus). I put cinnamon, cloves, and whatever spices I like in mine, along with salt. Once it's cooled I put a a little fruit, a couple of soaked nuts (soaked in a GSE water bath prior) and some alternate milk. Sometimes goat milk or goat yogurt.
Then dinner it's either a little meat or some beans or chili with some grains (quinoa, brown rice, whatever you can handle that is gluten free), and lots of salad. The greens really help with the yeast. I usually make chili during the week, and also lasagna with any GF grain (no cheese, but you can always try some fat free or low fat). I'm allergic to dairy, so I avoid it as much as possible (still cheat tho).
I learned with this diet to always have some GF grains already cooked in the fridge. I cook meals ahead of time and keep leftovers on hand so that I can just heat them up. I always have beans on hand, lots of lettuces, celery, etc. Oh, I forgot, the tops of celery are loaded with mag. You can chop them up real small and sprinkle on food (usually chili for me). Another good source of mag. I don't take mag (I get it from food, quinoa, celery tops, etc.). My doc said my mag levels are fine (think it's all the quinoa I eat).
All of that said, I am only human and cheat once in awhile with some gluten free cookies (whole foods). Also, GF pizza.
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CD57
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Summer I wonder if you see the famous Dr C in PA? that sounds like her recipe for protozoa.
I am interested to think that she thinks your resistant / stubborn symptoms are mostly due to proto. Did you test positive via Fry?
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Keebler
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THE REQUIREMENTS OF PROTEIN & AMINO ACID DURING ACUTE & CHRONIC INFECTIONS
Indian J Med Res 124, August 2006, pp 129-148
- by Anura V. Kurpad
Fifteen pages of text.
Excerpt from abstract on page one:
. . . In general, the amount of extra protein that would appear to be needed is of the order of 20-25 per cent of the recommended intake, for most infections. . . .
---------
See detail in article above about the importance of vegetarians supplementing TAURINE. We can't make enough on our own and plants do not contain enough. Most plentiful in muscle meats. So, if those are avoided, supplementation of taurine is vital for our nerve cells and vision.
And about CLA (Congjugated Linoleic Acid), too, and how we must supplement that if we do not get from natural sources.
CLA is found most abundantly in naturally raised free grazing beef & bison (maybe in fish, too, but I forget. Fish have other important nutrients. Best from "wild" waters, of course - a couple sardines can go a very long way to help us, even just twice a week. Wild Planet is "clean" company).
For those who don't "do" any fish or grazing protein, a "clean" CLA supplement is something to consider. And keep from heat.
Spirulina and Chlorella powders are excellent additions as they each contain some great nutrients that may be missing in certain diets. -
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Summer3
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CD57 I do not see her, but the protocol is based on her ILADS presentation. I have not been tested for protomyxzoa because I'm on abx.
My symptoms and the resistance I'm experiencing match up with it very well. Several llmd's think it's a factor for me.
MichaelTampa
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Summer3: I agree Keebler about the diet. I don't know where the protein source would come from on a vegan no fat diet.
I have been doing this diet to varying degrees over time. I have been a vegan for years. Even when I go medium-fat, I need to supplement protein via pills/powders. When I go low-fat, I need more of it.
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Keebler
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- My comment was not so much about a plant based diet but about the list posted - no protein was present.
BEANS can be excellent, many different kinds to rotate. HEMP, too. I was vegetarian for years and my particular body suffered - but partly because I had not been taught properly of the specific nutrients that MUST be supplemented -
- and partly because my body just required fish and meat (from clean sources). I do so much better then. Eggs make a huge contribution, in my case as I need SOME animal fat (from wild or organic free grazing sources) as much as I need plant fat. Still, my diet is mostly plant based and beans, nuts, etc. do factor in.
Some can "do" an "exclusive" plant based diet well. Some can't. Some do better somewhere in between. There is no pride or shame in either case. Just approach food with wisdom and wonder - and listen to what YOUR body needs.
As shift are made - for whatever reasons - just remember if you cross something off for some reason to be sure of what nutrients were there and figure out another way to get those.
A body always needs: water; air; protein; carbohydrates; fats. [And I'd say some fun, too.]
How that all works for each person can vary, at each step of the way.
Naturopathic doctors (and acupunturists) are excellent in this area of nutrition so for those who have one on their team, be sure to take your questions to them.
For those approach this particular Protomyxzoa diet, LL NDs and LL L.Acs. will likely be familar with Dr. Fry's work - and they may be able to offer valuable insight, according to YOUR individual body type & needs.
There is usually always another way to get the nutrients needed, considering the thousands of foods on the planet. -
[ 07-30-2013, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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nefferdun
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You can get all the protein you need from plant based sources. You can also get enough beneficial fat without processed oils and animal fats. I have gotten into remission with this diet. If you aren't in remission, then don't knock this diet.
The diet is also "WHOLE FOODS". It does not include any processed refined food. When people point out someone that became unhealthy on a vegetarian/vegan diet, they usually ate junk food like chips and white bread without the meat.
Legumes and grains make a whole protein. You do not have to eat them together in the same meal but you do have to eat both of them to get all the essential amino acids. Beans and lentils are very high in good quality protein.
The only thing you should supplement is B12. B12 is in the soil so if you grow organic root vegetables and don't scrub them, you can get B12 naturally. That is how cow's get it - grazing.
I don't believe anyone "needs" meat to be healthy. I believe many people crave meat and that is why they eat it. They don't want to give it up so they say it is necessary.
The fact is, most of the third world countries survive with very little meat. It is used more like a flavoring than the center of attention. These countries have a much lower incidence of cancer, heart disease and diabetes.
If Americans ate just ten percent less meat, the soy and corn saved would feed all the worlds hungry and we would be much healthier.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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Summer3
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Well I definitely react to the diet and enzymes. Not positively so far. A lot of burning aching muscle and joint pain and increased heart palpitations.
I am a little worried about the palpitations. I worry that this diet could have a negative impact on my heart. I'm trying to eat a normal amount of calories but it's very difficult with all of the restrictions. Plus the fact that I can't eat large volumes of food at a time or I feel like I'm going to faint (dizzy, shaking, freezing cold, weak, etc.). That's why I used to rely on peanut butter and larabars for a large percentage of my calories. High calorie in a small volume.
I don't have much of a problem eliminating meat. Although I used to eat a lot of salmon, turkey, chicken and steak. I actually like these vegan organic hot dogs though. Eggs are difficult to eliminate along with other sources of fat since I LOVE peanut butter, cashews, larabars and coconut milk ice cream. I just hope I can find a way to keep weight on. This month alone I lost 6 lbs BEFORE changing my diet to low-fat vegan.
posted
If anyone is worried about not getting enough protein, a possible idea is boiling skinless, boneless chicken breasts. I know it doesn't sound very appetizing, but they're actually pretty good if cooked well. Sort of chicken soup-ish. And they only have about 0.8 grams of fat per ounce (or pretty close ... going from memory).
So, if correct, a pound would only have about thirteen grams of fat, and about 130 grams of protein. That would leave plenty of room for veggies, fruits, grains, and such, while still keeping under thirty grams of fat a day.
I'm not sure where Dr. F stands on protein intake these days, so this may or may not be a workable solution, depending.
I'm not on this diet myself, because of too many limiting food sensitivities. But in the last few years I have had my fat anywhere from thirty grams to 100 for long periods of time, and have not noticed a difference in syx either way. Maybe if I was able to get it under twenty-five grams it would help, but with food sensitivities I can't manage that just yet.
It's great to see that some people have had success doing this. It's great to see when ANYTHING works and people get relief.
ETA: If you like fish, poached tilapia or cod might be a good protein source that's even lower in fat.
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CD57
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Jeez, Summer, 6 more lbs? Please be careful.
I forget...you recently dropped a bunch of meds right....did you herx/improve on bart and babs treatment? I remember you saying that you weren't herxing or improving....have things changed or are you holding steady?
I tested positive for "a" protozoa also via Fry, still on abx by the way, just a thought. In theory, the protozoans if a problem should still show up bc they are not affected by abx.
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Summer3
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Well the diet recommendation that I have (not from Dr. F. though) is supposed to be vegan so no fish or chicken. The exception is in extremely weak or debilitated patients then they can eat small amounts of lean meats. I don't think I fall into that category but I will add meats if I need to.
Yes, the 6 lbs was before I changed anything though. I was trying not to lose any at the time. At that point I was still eating cream cheese, peanut butter, steaks, sugar free ice cream, nuts, etc. trying to keep weight on but it wasn't working anyway. So far by eliminating fat I have not lost any more, but I know it's only a matter of time because there is no way I'm getting enough calories in proportion to my BMR and activity level.
I'm on plaquenil also so that may have some effect against protozoans. Right now I can't tell if I'm herxing or getting worse. I did drop a lot of meds recently but I don't think that's worsening things because I'm still on 3 abx in addition to herbs.
The new level of burning muscle and joint pain along with worsening heart palpitations makes me think that it's a herx but the heart stuff could also be from a lack of calories. It's hard to say. My symptoms are very scattered and come and go in wide ranges of severity all the time. No matter what I do or take.
Catgirl
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It sounds like a herx (burning muscle joint pain).
I used to be a vegan and I had more energy than I ever had in my life back then (also had lyme and co infections). You can get plenty of protein by just doubling up the beans, eating more broccoli (2 cups has 10 grams), 1 cup of chickpeas as 15gm, 1 cup of spinach has 7 grams. But you're right Summer, it is more difficult doing yeast free, but it is possible. You just have to eat more food. Look how big cows are. All they eat is grass (at least that is what they are supposed to eat), they just eat a lot of it.
That said, we are all different and have to find whatever balance works for us. I can have about 40 grams of fat and still do fine. But my eating eventually changes, kind of like the stock market (up and down), and I cheat sometimes. That's when I have to rein it in.
Keebler brings up a real good point about taurine. I eat a little bit of chicken, turkey, fish, goat yogurt/milk and a tiny bit of cheese and still have to supplement with amino acids and minerals (blood tests show it). Parasites suck all of this stuff out, so it's important for keeping my immune system up.
Are you taking anything for parasites? Ivermectin, alinia and albenza helped get rid of my chest pain. So does diatomaceous earth (food grade only). Parasite herbal products make me feel better too. Also salt/c.
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