If you are taking any of the different artemesia products, be sure to up your CoQ10 to 300 mg a day.
I didn't ask him for the research quotes, etc.; so if you are one of the scientific types, you will have to do your own research into this.
Thought it is good free advice for anyone interested.
The DRUG I took did and that's how it kills babesia. These are reactive oxygen species
and damage the body... not something you want long term.
Freee radicals and H2O2 produce inflammation- so usually we take anti-oxidants to help with this (anti-oxidants like Vit E CoQ10, ALA etc.)
If the HERB Artesemia produces oxidants
and your taking ANTI-oxidants - I don't see the value in that.
Will someone please explain?
Barb
Coenzyme Q10 or ubiguinone is so named because it is found so ubiguitously in all cells. It is a co-factor to enzymes within the electron transport chain of the cell's respiratory system. Concentrated in the membranes of mitochondria of all cells, adequate amounts of CoQ10 are essential to optimum energy delivery.
As well as this function, in its reduced form, CoQ10 is an excellent free radical scavenger in lipophilic systems. In this way, it works synergistically with vitamin E in preventing peroxidation of unsaturated fatty acids in membranes and in lipoproteins such as LDL and HDL. Indeed, CoQ10 is a more voracious scavenger of both aqueous and lipophilic free radicals in the LDL peptide and is the first line of defense in preventing oxidation of LDL proteins from being formed. As oxidized LDL continues to be the prime candidate for causing artherosclerosis and hence heart disease, the use of CoQ10 to prevent both of these conditons is both advisable and scientifically sound. In effect, CoQ10 is the first line of defense before vitamin E against production of oxidized LDL.
It should therefore seen as a first choice antioxidant for individuals suffereing from, or at increased risk of developing heart disease and artherosclerosis. As an effective therapy for heart disease, CoQ10 can be taken alongside conventional medicine including statin drugs, which have the effect of lowering cellular CoQ10 concentrations.
There is also considerable building evidence that supplementation with CoQ10 is veneficial in supporting OPTIMUM BRAIN FUNCTION, especially in the elderly, by maintaining energy production in the brain cells, which delines with age.
INCREASES BRAIN AND COGNITIVE FUNCTION!
So since Artemesia depletes our CoQ10 reserves, it is wise to prevent that by taking a high dose. It's expensive, I know.
But.....
Take care.
My question was:
Are CoQ10 & Artesemia antogonists to each other? They would be if Artesemia is creates oxidation.
Barb
So I certainly did not write this CoQ10 explanation with you in mind.
My doctor most likely would not recommend upping the dosage of CoQ10 when taking artemesia if he felt it to be an antagonist.
What would the purpose be? The good foods we consume are loaded with antioxidants. Sorry, I am not knowledgable enough to answer this.
Take care.
Same holds true for mepron(coq10).
If a person wants to take anti-oxidants, they could take them away from the artemisias active cycle..approximately 10-12 hours.
Byron2
Barb, It seems the herb does increase oxidation by neutrophils:
********
: J Antimicrob Chemother. 1997 Jan;39(1):99-101. Related Articles, Links
The effect of artemisinin on granulocyte function assessed by flow cytometry.
Wenisch C, Parschalk B, Zedwitz-Liebenstein K, Wernsdorfer W, Graninger W.
Department of Infectious Diseases, Internal Medicine I, University Hospital of Vienna, Austria.
The effect of dihydroartemisinin, artemisinin and artesunate (0.1, 0.5, 5 and 50 mg/L) on phagocytic function and release of reactive oxygen products by neutrophils was studied by flow cytometry. Incubation with dihydroartemisinin, artemisinin and artemether resulted in a decreased capacity to phagocytose Escherichia coli (0.1-50 mg/L: 62-40%, 66-32% and 59-47% of the control values, respectively; P < 0.001 for all). Conversely, the derivatives enhanced the intracellular generation of reactive oxygen intermediates (0.1-50 mg/L: 146-140%, 174-197% and 188-136% of the control values, respectively; P < 0.001 for all). Artemisia derivatives enhance the reactive oxygen response of neutrophils but depress their phagocytic ability at therapeutic blood levels.
*******
However, this study suggests there is a component that has antioxident properties:
**********
Universor Tablet, a Chinese herbal medicine formulation, attenuates mitochondrial oxidant stress in cardiomyocytes
1. Department of Medicine Medicine-Sections of Emergency Medicine and Pulmonary Critical Care, University of Chicago, Chicago,
2. Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care and Tang Center for Herbal Medicine Research, University of Chicago, Chicago,
3. Committee on Clinical Pharmacology, Pritzker School of Medicine, University of Chicago, Chicago, Il 60637,USA
Received 6 May 2000;Received in revised from 28 August 2000; Accepted 5 September 2000
The finding of Universor tablet's antioxidant activity is consistent with previous reports. Hong et al.(1994) showed that Astragalus membranaceus protects rat heart mitochondria against lipid peroxidation. Capillarisin, a major consituent of Artemisia capillaris was reported to quench free radicals generated by 1,1-diphenyl1-2-picrylhydrazyl in rat primary hepatocytes (Chu et al, 1999).
***********
Hmm, I guess that wasn't much help at all. I try to take a broad spectrum of antioxidants in low doses with the exception of the mineral ascorbates of which I take about 6 grams a day (I used to take 12 gm but reduced it when I found out that it can interfere with glutatione recycling). The idea being to shift the balance to favor the antioxidants but not so far as to affect normal energy production.
The OTC...Gluco Reg for stage 2 diabetes...contains chromium, bitter melon, ALA, etc. More negs. than pos., but some of each.
The beta glucans...the mushrooms...++ and -- charges.
COQ10 is a carrier of electrons across a cell membrane. Seems to me if you are taking something with a strong neg. charge...you want that charge carried across the membrane in order for it to go where it is needed the most...inside the cells.
Then there's Mg malate with B6 to carry it into the cell ;-)
Taking antioxidants decreases artemisia's effectiveness. This is well-known. People should lay off the supplements while they are on it. Shouldn't be a huge deal, as the protocol for high-dose artemsinin is only a few days.
Gigi, you should think twice before you post unresearched "good free advice for anyone interested." Just because someone is a doctor doesn't make them automatically right. We all learned this the hard way with Lyme.
Here come the flames because I was "attacking" Gigi...
The Drug creates oxidation & H2O2 in the cells and thats what kills babesia in the RBC.
It is not something you want in the body long term. And eating or taking iron and ANTi-oxidants are OUT when you take the drug.
I almost fasted when I took the drug, because almost everything has iron in it.
It worries me a little that people are taking Artesmia in supplement form for weeks ** IF ** the supplement creats free radicals in the body - even at a low level.
Barb
My friend Marcia talked to Nutricology, tha tmake sthe artemisinin. They have chronic lymies taking up to 10 pills a day, for many months. They ask that people take liver function tests just in case. People seem to be doing okay on it.
"at the highest dosage of 800 mg for 7
days, the recurrence rate was dropped by a factor of 10 to 3.9%."
quote:
Originally posted by jen13:
Barb, think about the fact that people take all these antibiotics, much stronger and more debiltiating than artemisia, for years! :-)My friend Marcia talked to Nutricology, tha tmake sthe artemisinin. They have chronic lymies taking up to 10 pills a day, for many months. They ask that people take liver function tests just in case. People seem to be doing okay on it.
You are talking to the company that is selling the product.
There is a difference between antibiotics for advanced Lyme and artemsinin for protozoa. One needs to be taken for months/years to be effective, the other for days.
It can be a very powerful therapy and have seen it succeed where mepron and zithro and other combos have not.
It appears that in some cases short term therapies with it are not enough. I suspect that this is because of hypercoagulation problems, suppressed immune function, and other health issues compounding the problem.
I have gotton feed-back from some people that artemsinin has been used with doxy with success, where mepron and zithro has failed.
The probability of multiple infectious agents with lyme disease and the different strains of babesia and babesia wa-1 can make it a different treatment than the treatment normally used for malaria.
I have seen it be effective with short courses and also seen longer courses needed.
Often times, other forms of treatment needs to be done concurrently with the artemisia type treatments, such as working with the immune system.
Ultimately it is our immune systems that will be responsible for the mop-up of this and other infections. If a person has low immune response, than they will have trouble with most infections...
Byron2
"By the way, the insert to the RIAMET which is the artemesia-based product from Novartis (also containing a small amount of abx) that is not FDA approved, but approved and being used in Europe, contains the following wording (I am translating this from German):
"During this therapy with Riamet, you should as soon as possible, take in food, because RIAMET is better absorbed by the body when combined with food intake. Otherwise the risk of recurrence of the (malaria)-infection is hightened."
You can probably get the English version on Novartis website in Switzerland.
For the people that understand ART testing, the RIAMET tests well on many people; does not test well on some people; but at a later point, with other therapies having taken place in between, it will test positive for people at a later time. So timing plays a role. That's the information I am getting from practitioner friends in Europe who use Riamet (by prescription).
Now is Sunday - I am going to play. Have a good day.
And I would disagree that long term side effects of abx would be worse than the long term effects from H2O2/free radical production.
b-artemether's MAXIMUM dose is 500 milligrams over 5 days.
The abx Lymies take in a DAY far far exceed
this dosage, and they're taken for months.
Maybe it's a good thing the real b-artemether drug is so hard to get.
Barb
".......either you or someone send me in March or so. It was a scientific abstract that stated, that Artemesia depletes the neurons of Co Q 10 and can lead to a number of neurological side effects. Since Artemisinin and Arthemether are both extracts of Artemisia I assume it is true for both also.
Most my patients that I put on the high dose Artemisinin (5 mg/kg twice daily) started having feelings of unwellness, body aches, feeling miserable about 4-8 weeks into the program. In addition I found through ART, that many patients become depleted in B12. So I started myself and every patient with negative effects on Q 10 and B12 shots and everyone got significantly better.
I can find the article, if really needed. I just don't have a functioning filing system yet."
For my purpose, the proof is in the pudding.
Barb, you have to understand all the mechanisms of any drug to decide its toxicity profile long term. Losing a gallbladder or breeding resistant superinfections like some on here with h pylori that will now not go away with any treatment, is a danger in itself.
Our body uses h202 to kill pathogens. It was even recently discovered it makes and uses ozone to do so.
One weighs a drug or herbal regimen's effectiveness and side effects against the dangers of the infection itself.
It seems Byron's overview is the most balanced--some need less, some more. Marcia seems to be doing fine on the artemisinin and just went to Vancouver for a few weeks, I'll here from her when she gets back.
do you think I should give myself a break from it? I stopped all meds about 3 weeks ago, adn we're trying to eliminate yeast, adn I'm either having dieoff from yeast, or some of my babs sympoms are back (head stuff)...I can't tell. I"m "this" close to going back on the malarone as I just can't tell which is happening with me...
should I take a break in the artemesia..could this be causing problems..?
Lisa
And Jen13 - I really do agree with you - every one has to decide their own risks - I'm just not so sure everyone ** knows ** the risks -
As far as Artesemia goes. Yes it IS an Oxidant..... so if you're taking it to produce oxidation in the body - why take an anti-Oxidant (CoQ10)?
__________________________________________
: Biochemistry. 1991 Feb 19;30(7):1934-9. Related Articles, Links
Purification and characterization of dihydroorotate dehydrogenase from the rodent malaria parasite Plasmodium berghei.
Krungkrai J, Cerami A, Henderson GB.
Laboratory of Medical Biochemistry, Rockefeller University, New York, New York 10021.
Dihydroorotate dehydrogenase (DHODase) has been purified 400-fold from the rodent malaria parasite Plasmodium berghei to apparent homogeneity by Triton X-100 solubilization followed by anion-exchange, Cibacron Blue F3GA-agarose affinity, and gel filtration chromatography. The purified enzyme has a molecular mass of 52 +/- 2 kDa on sodium dodecyl sulfate-polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis and of 55 +/- 6 kDa by gel filtration chromatography, and it has a pI of 8.2. It is active in monomeric form, contains 2.022 mol of iron and 1.602 acid-labile sulfurs per mole of enzyme, and does not contain a flavin cofactor. The purified DHODase exhibits optimal activity at pH 8.0 in the presence of the ubiquinone coenzyme CoQ6, CoQ7, CoQ9, or CoQ10. The Km values for L-DHO and CoQ6 are 7.9 +/- 2.5 microM and 21.6 +/- 5.5 microM, respectively. The kcat values for both substrates are 11.44 min-1 and 11.70 min-1, respectively. The reaction product orotate and an orotate analogue, 5-fluoroorotate, are competitive inhibitors of the enzyme-catalyzed reaction with Ki values of 30.5 microM and 34.9 microM, respectively. The requirement of the long-chain ubiquinones for activity supports the hypothesis of the linkage of pyrimidine biosynthesis to the electron transport system and oxygen utilization in malaria by DHODase via ubiquinones [Gutteridge, W. E., Dave, D., & Richards, W. H. G. (1979) Biochim. Biophys. Acta 582, 390-401].
PMID: 1847078 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
????
I guess we should drop this discussion as it's just going in circles.
Barb
But...so much is happening...so fast... it is hard to understand.
Many factors are at play...to fight off the infection and co-infection.
Zinc, glutathione, B3, B6, magnesium, etc. all are being rapidly depleted. B3 is needed to form NO...which is capable of destroying the malaria bug.
I will have to reference this all later. I lost everything I typed (UG!) and I have errands to run right now.
It would be bad enough if this bug simply loved magnesium, but it loves sugar too and this really compounds the problems especially when co-infected.
Artemisinin produces an oxidizing effect in the stomach and intestines. Long term administration greater than 2 or 3 months should be monitored by a healthcare practitioner. Combining with antioxidants or iron may theoretically decrease effectiveness.
Nelly
I wouldn't want to take something that produced reactive oxygen species long term.
Barb
Need a little help here understanding all of this.
From what I understand in reading posts here on Lymenet, CoQ10 (oxidant) should not be taken with anti-oxidants like Mepron and Artemisinin. Am I on track here?
My doctor currently has me on Zithromax and Mepron for babeisa and Lyme. She also has me on weekly injections of Glutathion/ATP, and Vitamin B12. Is the Glutathion an anti-oxidant?
I have added in 300mg a day of Allergy Research Artemisinin based on what I have learned here. My doc seems to be indifferent or not real knowledgable about Artemesinin.
Also take Diflucan as needed for yeast. Throw is some Mag Tab SR and B complex every now and then even though my Magnesium level test results are in normal range.
Any opinions are welcome if I am being counterproductive here in any way, or if I'm just not understanding correctly.
I feel like I am finally making progress here since adding the Mepron. Will start the 7th round next week.
Thanks,
BW
Also, Marnie, i hear you have a special plan for magnesium intake. Can you email it tyo me???
Bless you all, Michael (Hobo) from Jersey now in Georgia.
"When I used to Rife, only bab frequencies seemed to do anything. "
I am keeping rife in my thoughts for treatment if antibiotics do not do the trick. In checking many old posts, I saw where a few people had tried it, but I see where they are still having symptoms, as are you.
Could you share why you did not continue with it, or dropped it from your treatment?
Thank you for any input,
JR
"From what I understand in reading posts here on Lymenet, CoQ10 (oxidant) should not be taken with anti-oxidants like Mepron and Artemisinin. Am I on track here?"
-------------------------------------
See GiGi and bpeck: They both state that
CoQ10 is AntiOxidant
Artemisinin and Mepron are oxidants.
From what I have read, there was a differing opinion as to how to handle the potential conflict so they are not "nulled". This is my interpretation!
Gigi's dr. felt that CoQ10 needed to be increased (along with B12) when taking artemesia. Although she had no citation, she assumed that it was ok because she felt her dr. would not have done this if there would have been the possibility of a null or negative effect (hope I read this right).
Others cited evidence CoQ10 should be eliminated during administration of artemesia products because of antagonism. Allergy Research Corp (according to one poster) said this was a hypothesized effect, not necessarily true. However, because of oxidative effect ("bad") of artemisia, in practice, the artemesia is only done for about a week. Then CoQ10 (anti-oxidant) is ok to reinstate.
bpeck also stated that the babesia uses CoQ10, so elimination of it helps to starve babesia.
One of the problems in the discussion was determing whether artemesia was oxidative of anti-oxidative. Both responses were stated, but then there was a discussion as to which species of artemisia they were referrerring to (anua, absinthe, etc.).
Another confusion is that they are talking different commercial products, and this may effect oxidative vs. anti-oxidative properties.
Then there was a discussion as to length of ingestion. Most dr. prescribed seemed to be short term, while others reported knowledge of longer term
On this posting, no one mentions using artemesia with mepron, however I believe it is mentioned in other separate postings. One stated on this posting they had success in eradicating babs, with a form of artemesia when the mepron/zith was ineffective.
Probably once the "confusion variables" , including whether Mepron has oxidative qualities, are isolated, a great deal of searching on this site and throughout the web may shed more light on this group of postings.
Also, not all artemesia products are thought to be equal in effectiveness, according to experiences reported on other postings.
Then, I would think that if CoQ10 is to be excluded during artemesia ingestion because it is an anti-oxidant, then all anti-oxidents need to be excluded too, such as E, C, etc.
If it is excluded solely because it is "used" by babesia, then other anti-oxidants would seem OK.
I have not searched to find what is the therapeutic mechanism in artemisia products, i.e. is it the oxidative quality. Biochem is a weak spot in my brain.
Good luck! There is a lot of info on this post.
JR
I took different forms of Artemesia; starting with Zhang which did not make a dent. Then I took Mepron which is horrible and only lightened our pocketbook because Medicare does not pay for such a thing.
I then took for a short time (think it was 6 weeks) the Artemesinin from Holley Pharmaceuticals. That started to set the ball rolling somewhat.
Then I did 2 tours of Riamet (with long pauses in between - several months)
, which can be purchased in Europe with
prescription. One tour of Riamet consists of 24 pills taken over 60 hours per insert.
If you want help ordering Riamet with a prescription, let me know.
I did Rife on the S21, which is a fabulous tiny portable Rife/Microcurrent developed by my doctor - size of a telephone and fits into my purse.
It contains every Babesia frequency known to man around the world. He developed this thing getting input and machines from many scientists around the world, and it includes besides "Rife" frequencies also microcurrent
which prevent the healing crises in that it enhances lymph flow out of the cell, etc. etc.
It contains every conceivable Lyme, virus and parasite frequency. I cannot recite them all here - there are too many.
Please note that I ate everything during Babesia treatment that is normal to my diet. I did not avoid anything such as Iron or whatever is mentioned in other posts.
I took CoQ10 and B12 along with some other supplements that I was doing at that time.
Babesia is no longer with me and both my husband and I are fine and living a wonderful life again. Babesia was one of my worst problems.
I hope this helps some of you.
I took different forms of Artemesia; starting with Zhang which did not make a dent. Then I took Mepron which is horrible and only lightened our pocketbook because Medicare does not pay for such a thing.
I then took for a short time (think it was 6 weeks) the Artemesinin from Holley Pharmaceuticals. That started to set the ball rolling somewhat.
Then I did 2 tours of Riamet (with long pauses in between - several months)
, which can be purchased in Europe with
prescription. One tour of Riamet consists of 24 pills taken over 60 hours per insert.
If you want help ordering Riamet with a prescription, let me know.
I did Rife on the S21, which is a fabulous tiny portable Rife/Microcurrent developed by my doctor - size of a telephone and fits into my purse.
It contains every Babesia frequency known to man around the world. He developed this thing getting input and machines from many scientists around the world, and it includes besides "Rife" frequencies also microcurrent
which prevent the healing crises in that it enhances lymph flow out of the cell, etc. etc.
It contains every conceivable Lyme, virus and parasite frequency. I cannot recite them all here - there are too many.
Please note that I ate everything during Babesia treatment that is normal to my diet. I did not avoid anything such as Iron or whatever is mentioned in other posts.
I took CoQ10 and B12 along with some other supplements that I was doing at that time.
Babesia is no longer with me and both my husband and I are fine and living a wonderful life again. Babesia was one of my worst problems.
I hope this helps some of you.