Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
I contacted several LLMD's offices .. still waiting on a call back from a couple... and I asked about the outcomes of those who were pregnant and had Lyme.
This is updated information compiled from what I learned from the talks today and in the past...
1. Some doctors do not want to tell patients who come to them wanting to have children not to become pregnant. Some doctors insist their patients do not become pregnant.
2. Patients will sometimes ask about the good outcomes but rarely the negative ones.
3. Many times children born with Lyme will not begin to show serious symptoms until they are 4 or 5 years old.
4. All children born to Lyme mothers in one report were positive for Lyme in spite of being treated during pregnancy. Some mothers were on 2 antibiotics during pregnancy and still lost their babies.
5. Autopsies revealed spirochetes in various organs of children born to Lyme mothers and in their still-born fetus.
6. Congenital Lyme has been reported in the literature, however, syphilis is also a spirochete that has well documented outcomes for pregnancy and babies... and can be used for references.
7. Some doctors report some good outcomes, however, I was told it is still too soon to tell in some cases... and they are still being monitored.
8. Animal studies have documented damages caused to the unborn of mothers with Lyme.
9. Studies have been published since the 1980's describing risks to patients with Lyme who become pregnant... and various outcomes.
Yes, I am focused here on the negative side of purposely becoming pregnant while having an active Lyme infection.
A healthy child and healthy mother obviously would be the positive side and they can certainly speak for themselves.
Here are about 25 pages of documented reports listing outcomes, risks, etc. of having a spirochetal disease and being pregnant.
Warning: These reports may be disturbing to some individuals. I know they disturbed me greatly... but I wanted answers and facts.
I hope this helps others who are purposely considering having children while actively infected with Lyme, make an informed decision.
Gestational Lyme borreliosis. Implications for the fetus.
MacDonald AB Rheum Dis Clin North Am 1989 Nov 15:657-77
Abstract
Great diversity of clinical expression of signs and symptoms of gestational Lyme borreliosis parallels the diversity of prenatal syphilis. It is documented that transplacental transmission of the spirochete from mother to fetus is possible.
Further research is necessary to investigate possible teratogenic effects that might occur if the spirochete reaches the fetus during the period of organogenesis.
Autopsy and clinical studies have associated gestational Lyme borreliosis with various medical problems including fetal death, hydrocephalus, cardiovascular anomalies, neonatal respiratory distress, hyperbilirubinemia, intrauterine growth retardation, cortical blindness, sudden infant death syndrome, and maternal toxemia of pregnancy.
Whether any or all of these associations are coincidentally or causally related remains to be clarified by further investigation. It is my expectation that the spectrum of gestational Lyme borreliosis will expand into many of the clinical domains of prenatal syphilis.
Death 8-Day Old Californian Baby Boy Culture positive seronegative transplacental Lyme borreliosis infant mortality.
Lavoie PE;Lattner BP;Duray PH; Barbour AG; Johnson HC. Arthritis Rheum 1987; Volume 30, Number 4, 3(Suppl):S50.
"Transplacental infection by Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the agent of Lyme Borreliosis (LB), has recently been documented (L.E. Markowitz, et al; P.A. Schlesinger, et al). Fetal infection confirmed by culture has been reported by A.B. MacDonald (in press) from a highly endemic region (Long Island, NY).
We report a culture positive neonatal death occurring in California, a low endemic region. The boy was born by C-section because of fetal distress. He initially appeared normal. He was readmitted at age 8 days with profound lethargy leading to unresponsiveness. Marked peripheral cyanosis, systemic hypertension, metabolic acidosis, myocardial dysfunction, & abdominal aortic thrombosis were found. Death ensued. Bb was grown from a frontal cerebral cortex inoculation. The spirochete appeared similar to the original Long Island tick isolate. Silver stain of brain & heart was confirmatory of tissue infection.
The infant was the second born to a California native. The 20 m/o sibling was well. The mother had been having migratory arthralgias and malaise since experiencing horse fly & mosquito bites while camping on the Maine coast in 1971. The family was seronegative for LB by ELISA at Yale. Cardiolipin antibodies were also not found."
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JAMA. 1986 Jun 27;255(24):3394-6. Related Articles, Links Lyme disease during pregnancy.
Markowitz LE, Steere AC, Benach JL, Slade JD, Broome CV.
Lyme disease is an increasingly recognized tick-borne illness caused by a spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi. Because the etiologic agent of Lyme disease is a spirochete, there has been concern about the effect of maternal Lyme disease on pregnancy outcome.
We reviewed cases of Lyme disease in pregnant women who were identified before knowledge of the pregnancy outcomes. Nineteen cases were identified with onset between 1976 and 1984. Eight of the women were affected during the first trimester, seven during the second trimester, and two during the third trimester; in two, the trimester of onset was unknown.
Thirteen received appropriate antibiotic therapy for Lyme disease.
Of the 19 pregnancies, five had adverse outcomes, including syndactyly, cortical blindness, intrauterine fetal death, prematurity, and rash in the newborn.
Adverse outcomes occurred in cases with infection during each of the trimesters. Although B burgdorferi could not be implicated directly in any of the adverse outcomes, the frequency of such outcomes warrants further surveillance and studies of pregnant women with Lyme disease.
PMID: 2423719 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Gestational Lyme borreliosis. Implications for the fetus. Rheum Dis Clin North Am 1989 Nov;15(4):657-77
MacDonald AB Southampton Hospital, New York
Great diversity of clinical expression of signs and symptoms of gestational Lyme borreliosis parallels the diversity of prenatal syphilis. It is documented that transplacental transmission of the spirochete from mother to fetus is possible. Further research is necessary to investigate possible teratogenic effects that might occur if the spirochete reaches the fetus during the period of organogenesis.
Autopsy and clinical studies have associated gestational Lyme borreliosis with various medical problems including fetal death, hydrocephalus, cardiovascular anomalies, neonatal respiratory distress, hyperbilirubinemia, intrauterine growth retardation, cortical blindness, sudden infant death syndrome, and maternal toxemia of pregnancy. Whether any or all of these associations are coincidentally or causally related remains to be clarified by further investigation. It is my expectation that the spectrum of gestational Lyme borreliosis will expand into many of the clinical domains of prenatal syphilis. 2685924 NLM CIT. ID: 90069113
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Acta Eur Fertil 1988 Sep-Oct;19(5):279-81
Lyme Borrelia positive serology associated with spontaneous abortion in an endemic Italian area.
Carlomagno G; Luksa V; Candussi G; Rizzi GM; Trevisan G
Dept. of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Trieste School of Medicine.
Lyme borreliosis acquired during pregnancy may be associated with stillbirth and fetal malformations. This paper reports preliminary results of a study intended to evaluate the frequency of Borrelia burgdorferi infection associated with spontaneous abortion in an endemic Italian area.
Schutzer SE; Janniger CK; Schwartz RA Department of Allergy and Immunology, New Jersey Medical School, Newark 07103-2714.
Lyme disease, caused by infection with Borrelia burgdorferi, can affect those exposed to a vector tick. Pregnant women are no exception, and such infection places the fetus at risk. It is particularly important to recognize the disease early so that effective therapy may be instituted. Although the present patient had a favorable outcome, not all do. Clinical diagnosis is especially important since conventional laboratory tests may be inadequate or require lengthy periods of time before a positive result occurs. The dermatologic sign of Lyme disease, erythema migrans, although occurring in only 50 percent of cases, is likely to be the most important diagnostic sign. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2070648 NLM CIT. ID: 91300895 SOURCE: Cutis 1991 Apr;47(4):267-8
Of the 801 reported cases, 651 (81.3%) occurred because the mother received no penicillin treatment or inadequate treatment before or during pregnancy; in 233 (35.8%) of these cases, the mother received no prenatal care.
Infants of mothers who had an unknown or equivocal response to therapy accounted for 91 (11.4%) of all cases; in 30 of these cases, the infant was evaluated and found to have evidence of CS radiographically or by examination of CSF.
The remaining 59 (7.4%) infants were reported to have CS because of inappropriate serologic response to therapy in the mother (4), evidence of treatment failure or reinfection, or other reasons.
Of the reported 801 infants, 748 (93.4%) were live born, 45 (5.6%) were stillborn; eight (1.0%) of those born alive were reported to have died, six within the first 2 days of life.
CS surveillance is complicated by difficulty in establishing the diagnosis. Most infants born with CS have no signs of the disease at birth. If untreated, symptoms may begin within 3 months after birth and may include anemia, skin rash, hepatosplenomegaly, and nasal discharge.
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About 1 out of every 10 newborns in the United States--375,000 per year--is exposed prenatally to one or more drugs. In major cities, many hospitals report that the percentage of newborns showing the effects of drugs is 20 percent or even higher.
Fatal outcomes were observed in 26% of infants with congenital syphilis, including late fetal death (7%), stillbirth (16%), or neonatal death (3%). CONCLUSIONS: In the Russian Federation, the frequency of congenital syphilis is high, risk factors for congenital syphilis are modifiable, and the consequences of congenital syphilis are severe.
Infectious diseases and pregnancy: Infections during pregnancy can pose a threat to the fetus. Even a simple urinary tract infection, which is common during pregnancy, should be treated immediately. An infection that goes untreated can lead to premature labor and rupture of the membranes surrounding the fetus.
Infectious syphilis in a pregnant woman usually results in miscarriage, stillbirth, or a congenitally infected baby. Risk of transmission diminishes as maternal syphilis advances, but in early latent (asymptomatic) syphilis the risk of vertical transmission remains about 30% to 60%
Seventeen children born in the United Kingdom were reported as meeting case definitions for congenital syphilis. Three children had clinical abnormalities; two had signs on x ray pictures (one osteochondritis of the skull), and the third had hepatosplenomegaly, rhinitis, oedema, and thrombocytopenia.
Congenital Syphilis When a pregnant woman has syphilis, she can transmit the infection to her unborn child, causing congenital syphilis.
By the age of 2, children born with congenital syphilis show symptoms such as problems affecting the skin, teeth, bones, liver, blood, kidneys, eyes, nerves, and brain.
* Secondary Syphilis This stage usually begins 2 to 10 weeks after the chancre heals. Syphilis bacteria enter the blood and spread through the body causing many different symptoms, including rash (small red bumps), fever, headache, loss of appetite, weight loss, sore throat, muscle aches, joint pain, a generally ill feeling, and enlarged lymph nodes. Gray or white wart-like patches of skin called condylomata lata can appear on the moist areas around the anus and vagina. In this stage, syphilis may attack the liver, kidneys, and eyes or cause meningitis.
* Late (Tertiary) Syphilis After the secondary stage passes, some people with syphilis progress to a latent stage where they have no more symptoms. Others go on to have symptoms of late syphilis that affect the eyes, large blood vessels, nerves (neurosyphilis), and brain. Late syphilis has many different signs and symptoms, including memory loss, psychological problems, difficulty walking, loss of balance, loss of feeling (especially in the legs), problems with bladder control, impotence, vision problems, and symptoms of heart disease.
Pregnant women with syphilis can also pass the infection to their unborn children at any time during pregnancy or even during birth.
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Medscape Womens Health. 1998 Jan;3(1):5.
Recognizing and treating syphilis in pregnancy.
Larkin JA, Lit L, Toney J, Haley JA.
Division of Infectious Disease at the University of South Florida College of Medicine in Tampa, Fla, USA.
The number of primary and secondary syphilis cases in young women rose dramatically in the late 1980s and early 1990s, due to illicit drug use and the exchange of drugs for sex. Of infants born to mothers with primary or secondary syphilis, up to 50% will be premature, stillborn, or die in the neonatal period; further, most of these children are born with congenital disease that may not be apparent for years. While appropriate treatment of the pregnant female can prevent congenital syphilis, the major deterrent has been the inability to effectively identify these women and get them to undergo treatment. In determining a penicillin regimen, the clinician must consider the stage of maternal infection, the length of fetal exposure, and physiologic changes in pregnancy that can affect the pharmacokinetics of antibiotics. Treatment decisions may be further complicated in patients who are allergic to penicillin or infected with HIV. The pathogenesis of congenital syphilis is not completely understood, but placental invasion is the presumed major route. All women should be screened for syphilis with a nontreponemal test (eg, rapid plasma reagin [RPR] or venereal disease research laboratory [VDRL] test) in the first trimester. Those at high risk should be retested at 28 weeks and near delivery. Even with appropriate treatment of syphilis during pregnancy, fetal infection may still occur in up to 14% of cases. Treating syphilis during pregnancy can be difficult due to physiologic changes that can alter drug levels and the risk that drugs will induce uterine contractions or compromise the health of the fetus. While there are added risks and potential complications, treatment regimens parallel those in nonpregnant women.
Publication Types:
* Review * Review, Tutorial
PMID: 9732090 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2002 Mar;186(3):569-73. Related Articles, Links [Click here to read] Congenital syphilis after maternal treatment for syphilis during pregnancy.
Sheffield JS, Sanchez PJ, Morris G, Maberry M, Zeray F, McIntire DD, Wendel GD Jr.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235-9032, USA.
OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to characterize pregnancies that were complicated by maternal syphilis that had been treated before delivery in which the newborn infant was diagnosed with congenital syphilis.
STUDY DESIGN: Prospective surveillance from January 1, 1982, to December 31, 1998, involved women who received antenatal treatment for syphilis. Infants who were born with congenital syphilis were identified by clinical or laboratory criteria. Antepartum factors such as gestational age, time to delivery and VDRL titers were then analyzed and compared with those of women who had been treated and who were delivered of an uninfected infant. The 1:1 match was based on the stage of syphilis and the gestational age at treatment.
RESULTS: Forty-three women who received antepartum therapy for syphilis were delivered of an infant with congenital syphilis.
Most of the women had been treated for early syphilis; the mean gestational age at treatment was 30.3 weeks. Thirty-five percent of the women were treated >30 days before delivery.
Fifty-six percent of the infants were preterm. The 1:1 match revealed that treatment and delivery high VDRL titers, prematurity, and a short interval from treatment to delivery were significantly different in those infants who were diagnosed with congenital syphilis.
CONCLUSION: High VDRL titers at treatment and delivery, earlier maternal stage of syphilis, the interval from treatment to delivery, and delivery of an infant at < or =36 weeks' gestation are associated with the delivery of a congenitally infected neonate after adequate treatment for maternal syphilis.
The signs and symptoms of congenital syphilis are arbitrarily divided into early manifestations , which appear in the first 2 years of life, and late manifestations , which appear thereafter.
Early congenital syphilis usually starts in between birth and about 3 months of life, with most cases occurring within the first five weeks of life. Because of their frequency and early appearance the changes in the bones, especially the femur and humerus, are of diagnostic value.
Other symptoms include rhinitis , coryza , or snuffles. Snuffles usually occur in the first week of life, are very persistent and often bloody.
A syphilitic rash, typically consisting of small spots that are dark red to copper, usually appears after 1- 2 weeks of rhinitis and is most severe on the hands and feet. As the rash fades, the lesions become coppery or dusky red.
Fissures often develop about the lips and anus. They bleed readily and heal with scarring. White mucous patches may be found on any of the mucous membranes. Ectodermal changes include exfoliation of the nails, loss of hair and eyebrows, and iritis (inflammation of the iris).
Late manifestations of congenital syphilis are the result of scarring from the early systemic disease and include involvement of the teeth, bones, eyes, and gummas in the viscera, skin, or mucous membranes.
Characteristic changes of the teeth include a notched appearance on the biting edges of the upper central incisors, these are called Hutchinson's teeth. Interstitial keratitis is the most common late lesion. Bony changes include sclerosing lesions, saber shin, frontal bossing and gummatous or destructive lesions within long bones.
If a woman with syphilis gets pregnant, her child may be born with congenital syphilis. 40% of infected fetuses die before birth; newborns suffer from secondary-stage syphilis and enter the latent stage if they survive their first year.
* If untreated, all children born with syphilis develop secondary and tertiary syphilis. The infected children do not live long enough. * Treatment for tertiary Stage * At this point, many of the effects of this disease can not be treated. It is too late!!
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Clin Infect Dis. 2002 Oct 15;35(Suppl 2):S200-9.
Treatment of syphilis in pregnancy and prevention of congenital syphilis.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Dallas, TX 75390-9032, USA. [email protected]
Studies about the management of syphilis during pregnancy were reviewed. They lacked uniformity in diagnostic criteria and study design. Currently recommended doses of benzathine penicillin G are effective in preventing congenital syphilis in most settings, although studies are needed regarding increased dosing regimens. Azithromycin and ceftriaxone offer potential alternatives for penicillin-allergic women, but insufficient data on efficacy limit their use in pregnancy. Ultrasonography provides a noninvasive means to examine pregnant women for signs of fetal syphilis, and abnormal findings indicate a risk for obstetric complications and fetal treatment failure. Ultrasonography should precede antepartum treatment during the latter half of pregnancy to gauge severity of fetal infection. However, optimal management of the affected fetus has not been established; collaborative management with a specialist is recommended. Antepartum screening remains a critical component of congenital syphilis prevention, even in the era of syphilis elimination.
Pregnancy Complications and Lyme Disease A Bibliography with Highlighted Full Abstracts
Lyme disease is a serious bacterial infection caused by a tick bite and affects humans and animals.
This page contains citations and complete abstracts for medical and scientific articles from the National Institutes of Health (NIH), National Library of Medicine (NLM) MEDLINE database about pregnancy complications and Lyme disease. Citations are sorted by date within categories with particularly significant portions highlighted in bold red lettering.
Click on link shown after "TITLE:" to see complete citation/abstract. Table of Contents Primary references for pregnancy complications and Lyme disease
Other references - animal studies, single patient reports, etc.
References, citations only (i.e., no abstract available.)
For more information about Lyme disease
Pregnancy Complications and Lyme Disease Note: Most of the abstracts and annotations below were gleaned from citations found by the following MEDLINE "search" link:
MEDLINE - Fetal, pregnancy, birth-defect, etc. AND Lyme disease - 266 on 23 Jun 00
Highlighted Abstracts
Primary references:
TITLE: Lyme borreliosis as a cause of facial palsy during pregnancy. AUTHORS: Grandsaerd MG; Meulenbroeks AA AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Otorhinolaryngology, Rijnstate hospital Wagnerlaan 55 6815 AD, Arnhem, The Netherlands ABSTRACT: The medical history of a pregnant woman in whom the initial pattern of complaints suggested hyperemesis gravidarum is described. After about 18 days the patient developed left facial palsy. Repeated tests eventually confirmed the diagnosis of neuroborreliosis. The problems concerning diagnostics, therapy and the possible complications of Lyme borreliosis during gestation are described. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 10817889 NLM CIT. ID: No Cit. ID Assigned SOURCE: Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol 2000 Jul 1;91(1):99-101
TITLE: Maternal Lyme disease and congenital malformations: a cord blood serosurvey in endemic and control areas. AUTHORS: Williams CL; Strobino B; Weinstein A; Spierling P; Medici F AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Child Health Center, American Health Foundation, Valhalla, New York 10595, USA. ABSTRACT: This report describes a cohort study of over 5000 infants and their mothers who participated in a cord blood serosurvey designed to examine the relationship between maternal exposure to Lyme disease and adverse pregnancy outcome. Based on serology and reported clinical history, mothers of infants in an endemic hospital cohort are 5 to 20 times more likely to have been exposed to B. burgdorferi as compared with mothers of infants in a control hospital cohort. The incidence of total congenital malformations was not significantly different in the endemic cohort compared with the control cohort, but the rate of cardiac malformations was significantly higher in the endemic cohort [odds ratio (OR) 2.40; 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.25, 4.59] and the frequencies of certain minor malformations (haemangiomas, polydactyly, and hydrocele), were significantly increased in the control group. Demographic variations could only account for differences in the frequency of polydactyly. Within the endemic cohort, there were no differences in the rate of major or minor malformations or mean birthweight by category of possible maternal exposure to Lyme disease or cord blood serology. The disparity between observations at the population and individual levels requires further investigation. The absence of association at the individual level in the endemic area could be because of the small number of women who were actually exposed either in terms of serology or clinical history. The reason for the findings at the population level is not known but could be because of artifact or population differences. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 7479280 NLM CIT. ID: 96061203 SOURCE: Paediatr Perinat Epidemiol 1995 Jul;9(3):320-30
TITLE: [Manifestation of Lyme arthritis in the puerperal period] VERNACULAR TITLE: Manifestation einer Lyme-Arthritis im Wochenbett. AUTHORS: Bussen S; Steck T AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Universitatsfrauenklinik Wurzburg. ABSTRACT: Lyme disease, a tick-transmitted spirochetal illness caused by Borrelia burgdorferi, usually begins with a characteristic erythema chronicum migrans accompanied by flu-like symptoms. This phase may later be followed by meningitis, neuritis, carditis or arthritis. Congenital abnormalities due to maternal infection during pregnancy have been described. We report on a case of a 36-year old V gravida III para. After a normal pregnancy and a Cesarean section the patient developed postpartal an acute Lyme arthritis. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 7975802 NLM CIT. ID: 95066274 SOURCE: Z Geburtshilfe Perinatol 1994 Aug;198(4):150-2
TITLE: Congenital infections and the nervous system. AUTHORS: Bale JF Jr; Murph JR AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Pediatrics, University of Iowa College of Medicine, Iowa City. ABSTRACT: Despite vaccines, new antimicrobials, and improved hygienic practices, congenital infections remain an important cause of death and long-term neurologic morbidity among infants world-wide. Important agents include Toxoplasma gondii, cytomegalovirus, Treponema pallidum, herpes simplex virus types 1 and 2, and rubella virus. In addition, several other agents, such as the varicella zoster virus, human parvovirus B19, and Borrelia burgdorferi, can potentially infect the fetus and cause adverse fetal outcomes. This article provides an overview of these infectious disorders and outlines current strategies for acute treatment and long-term management. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 1321971 NLM CIT. ID: 92342460 SOURCE: Pediatr Clin North Am 1992 Aug;39(4):669-90
TITLE: [Borrelia infections from a dermatological viewpoint] VERNACULAR TITLE: Borrelieninfektion aus dermatologischer Sicht. AUTHORS: Vocks E; Engst R; Borelli S AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Dermatologische Klinik und Poliklinik Technischen Universitat Munchen. ABSTRACT: Erythema migrans (EM), Borrelia lymphocytoma (BL) and acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans (ACA) are the established dermatological manifestations of borrelia infection, a complex multiorganic disease. Analogous to syphilis Borrelia infection can be classified by three stages, at which stage I (localized infection) and II (disseminated infection) are manifestations of early infection and stage III (persistent infection) a symptom of late infection. At all stages skin manifestations can be present, the above mentioned as stage-marker as well as other non-specific polymorphous skin lesions which sometimes appear at stage II. Because of its frequent (60-80%) occurrence in all borrelia infections EM has a pathognomonic importance for borrelia infection. In diagnosis serology is currently the only practical laboratory aid. False negative and false positive results must be considered. Treatment of choice is ceftriaxone, penicillin G (or amoxycillin) or tetracycline. Prophylactic antibiotic therapy for tick bites is not recommended. Congenital borrelia infections seem to be unusual, but it is likely that they can occur and cause different adverse fetal outcome or abortion. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 1922122 NLM CIT. ID: 92017931 SOURCE: Monatsschr Kinderheilkd 1991 Jul;139(7):425-8
TITLE: Lyme disease during pregnancy. AUTHORS: Schutzer SE; Janniger CK; Schwartz RA AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Allergy and Immunology, New Jersey Medical School, Newark 07103-2714. ABSTRACT: Lyme disease, caused by infection with Borrelia burgdorferi, can affect those exposed to a vector tick. Pregnant women are no exception, and such infection places the fetus at risk. It is particularly important to recognize the disease early so that effective therapy may be instituted. Although the present patient had a favorable outcome, not all do. Clinical diagnosis is especially important since conventional laboratory tests may be inadequate or require lengthy periods of time before a positive result occurs. The dermatologic sign of Lyme disease, erythema migrans, although occurring in only 50 percent of cases, is likely to be the most important diagnostic sign. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2070648 NLM CIT. ID: 91300895 SOURCE: Cutis 1991 Apr;47(4):267-8
TITLE: Gestational Lyme borreliosis. Implications for the fetus. AUTHORS: MacDonald AB AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Southampton Hospital, New York. ABSTRACT: Great diversity of clinical expression of signs and symptoms of gestational Lyme borreliosis parallels the diversity of prenatal syphilis. It is documented that transplacental transmission of the spirochete from mother to fetus is possible. Further research is necessary to investigate possible teratogenic effects that might occur if the spirochete reaches the fetus during the period of organogenesis. Autopsy and clinical studies have associated gestational Lyme borreliosis with various medical problems including fetal death, hydrocephalus, cardiovascular anomalies, neonatal respiratory distress, hyperbilirubinemia, intrauterine growth retardation, cortical blindness, sudden infant death syndrome, and maternal toxemia of pregnancy. Whether any or all of these associations are coincidentally or causally related remains to be clarified by further investigation. It is my expectation that the spectrum of gestational Lyme borreliosis will expand into many of the clinical domains of prenatal syphilis. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2685924 NLM CIT. ID: 90069113 SOURCE: Rheum Dis Clin North Am 1989 Nov;15(4):657-77
TITLE: [Clinical aspects of Borrelia burgdorferi infections] VERNACULAR TITLE: Klinische Aspekte der Borrelia-burgdorferi-Infektionen. AUTHORS: Neubert U AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Dermatologische Klinik der Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitat Munchen. ABSTRACT: Skin lesions due to Borrelia burgdorferi-like erythema migrans, lymphadenosis cutis benigna, and acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans - are hall-marks of a systemic infection, which tends to a chronically relapsing course. Even if the skin lesions are missing, or disappear spontaneously, the infection may persist and affect other organs. This presumption is supported by the outcome of a long-term follow-up study on seropositive forest workers. In association with meningopolyneuritis (Garin-Bujadoux-Bannwarth disease) and acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans - myositis and fasciitis have been recently reported as further possible manifestations of Borrelia burgdorferi infection. Borrelial infection during pregnancy should promptly be treated with antibiotics in high dosages, in order to prevent maternal-fetal transmission of borrelial organisms resulting in stillbirth or congenital defects of the newborn. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2678790 NLM CIT. ID: 90021654 SOURCE: Z Hautkr 1989 Aug 15;64(8):649-52, 655-6
TITLE: Infants born to mothers with antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi at delivery. AUTHORS: Nadal D; Hunziker UA; Bucher HU; Hitzig WH; Duc G AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Abteilungen fur Infektionskrankheiten und Immunologie der Universitat, Zurich, Switzerland. ABSTRACT: A serological survey over a 1-year period of 1416 mothers at delivery and their 1434 offspring for the presence of anti-Borrelia burgdorferi antibodies revealed a prevalence of 0.85%. Clinically active Lyme disease during pregnancy was found in 1 of these 12 women with elevated titres and the child was born with a ventricular septal defect. Of six affected children, two had hyperbilirubinaemia, one muscular hypotonia, one was underweight for gestational age, one was macrocephalic, and one had supraventricular extrasystoles. Anomalous findings could not be attributed to B. burgdorferi due to a lack of serological evidence of intrauterine infection. Our data do not imply the need for serological screening in pregnancy, however, the importance of recognition and treatment of Lyme disease in pregnancy is emphasized. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2920747 NLM CIT. ID: 89153177 SOURCE: Eur J Pediatr 1989 Feb;148(5):426-7
TITLE: Lyme Borrelia positive serology associated with spontaneous abortion in an endemic Italian area. AUTHORS: Carlomagno G; Luksa V; Candussi G; Rizzi GM; Trevisan G AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Dept. of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Trieste School of Medicine. ABSTRACT: Lyme borreliosis acquired during pregnancy may be associated with stillbirth and fetal malformations. This paper reports preliminary results of a study intended to evaluate the frequency of Borrelia burgdorferi infection associated with spontaneous abortion in an endemic Italian area. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 3252658 NLM CIT. ID: 89300130 SOURCE: Acta Eur Fertil 1988 Sep-Oct;19(5):279-81
TITLE: [Multiple neurologic manifestations of Borrelia burgdorferi infection] VERNACULAR TITLE: Les multiples manifestations neurologiques des infections a Borrelia burgdorferi. AUTHORS: Dupuis MJ AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Clinique St-Pierre, Ottignies, Belgique. ABSTRACT: The neurological spectrum of Borrelia burgdorferi infections is still enlarging. We review epidemiological, pathological and serological data of Lyme disease. The course of the disease is divided in three stages: stage 1 during the first month is characterised by erythema chronicum migrans and associated manifestations; stage 2 includes not only the classical European meningoradiculitis but also less specific neurological symptoms: isolated lymphocytic meningitis with an acute or even relapsing course, apparently idiopathic facial palsy, neuritis of other cranial nerves, polyneuritis cranialis, Argyll-Robertson sign, peripheral nerve involvement, acute transverse myelitis, severe encephalitis, myositis. During stage 3, three to five months or longer after the onset of the disease, chronic arthritis, acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans and various neurological symptoms can be observed: chronic neuropathy with mainly sensory or motor signs, recurrent strokes due to cerebral angiopathy and progressive encephalomyelitis; this third stage the central nervous system involvement is characterised by slowly progressive or fluctuating course during months or years, ataxic or spastic gait disorder, bladder disturbances, cranial nerve dysfunction including optic atrophy and hypoacusia, dysarthria, focal and diffuse encephalopathy. This chronic central nervous system disease can mimic multiple sclerosis, anorexia nervosa, psychic disorders or subacute presenile dementia. It is often associated with pleiocytosis, abnormal EEG and evoked potentials, sometimes multifocal and mainly periventricular white matter lesions visualised by CT or MRI, and as a rule high antibody titers against Borrelia burgdorferi. High doses of penicillin can halt the disease, sometimes induce spectacular regression of symptoms or sometimes be inefficient; ceftriaxone could be a more powerful therapy. Similarities between syphilis and Borreliosis are multiple: both of these spirochetes contain plasmids, can be transmitted through the placenta and progress for many years through successive stages, with multiorgan symptoms, including parenchymatous and vascular lesions of the central nervous system. Borrelia burgdorferi is the new great imitator. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 3070690 NLM CIT. ID: 89186273 SOURCE: Rev Neurol (Paris) 1988;144(12):765-75
TITLE: Lyme disease during pregnancy. AUTHORS: Markowitz LE; Steere AC; Benach JL; Slade JD; Broome CV ABSTRACT: Lyme disease is an increasingly recognized tick-borne illness caused by a spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi. Because the etiologic agent of Lyme disease is a spirochete, there has been concern about the effect of maternal Lyme disease on pregnancy outcome. We reviewed cases of Lyme disease in pregnant women who were identified before knowledge of the pregnancy outcomes. Nineteen cases were identified with onset between 1976 and 1984. Eight of the women were affected during the first trimester, seven during the second trimester, and two during the third trimester; in two, the trimester of onset was unknown. Thirteen received appropriate antibiotic therapy for Lyme disease. Of the 19 pregnancies, five had adverse outcomes, including syndactyly, cortical blindness, intrauterine fetal death, prematurity, and rash in the newborn. Adverse outcomes occurred in cases with infection during each of the trimesters. Although B burgdorferi could not be implicated directly in any of the adverse outcomes, the frequency of such outcomes warrants further surveillance and studies of pregnant women with Lyme disease. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2423719 NLM CIT. ID: 86227939 SOURCE: JAMA 1986 Jun 27;255(24):3394-6
Other references - animal studies, single patient reports, etc.:
TITLE: Fetal outcome in murine Lyme disease. AUTHORS: Silver RM; Yang L; Daynes RA; Branch DW; Salafia CM; Weis JJ AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Utah School of Medicine, Salt Lake City 84132. ABSTRACT: Lyme disease is an inflammatory syndrome caused by infection with Borrelia burgdorferi. Although this syndrome has important implications for human pregnancy, little is known about gestational infection with B. burgdorferi. Fetal death occurred in 33 of 280 gestational sacs (12%) in 39 C3H/HeN female mice infected by intradermal injection of B. burgdorferi 4 days after mating (acute infection), compared with 0 of 191 sacs in 25 control mice (P = 0.0001). Forty-six percent of acutely infected mice suffered at least one fetal death, compared with none of the control animals (P = 0.0002). There were no fetal deaths in 18 C3H/HeN mice infected 3 weeks prior to mating (chronic infection). A sensitive PCR technique detected B. burgdorferi DNA in the uteri of acutely infected mice but did not detect DNA in the uteri of controls or chronically infected mice. Spirochete DNA was only rarely detected in fetal tissues, and its presence was not required for fetal death. The inclusion of an internal competitive PCR target indicated that the lack of B. burgdorferi sequences in fetal DNA was not due to the presence of a PCR inhibitor. Histologic analysis of gestational tissues from infected animals demonstrated nonspecific pathology consistent with fetal death. These findings indicate an association between murine fetal death and acute infection with B. burgdorferi early in gestation but not with chronic infection. Our data suggest that fetal death is due to a maternal response to infection rather than fetal infection. These findings could provide an explanation for observations in humans in which sporadic cases of fetal death in women infected with B. burgdorferi during pregnancy have been reported, while previous infection has not been associated with fetal death. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 7806385 NLM CIT. ID: 95105028 SOURCE: Infect Immun 1995 Jan;63(1):66-72
TITLE: Intrauterine transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi in dogs. AUTHORS: Gustafson JM; Burgess EC; Wachal MD; Steinberg H AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Medical Sciences, University of Wisconsin-Madison, School of Veterinary Medicine 53706. ABSTRACT: To determine whether intrauterine transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi could exist in dogs, 10 female Beagles were inoculated intradermally with approximately 1,000 B burgdorferi on day 1 of proestrus; inoculation was repeated every 2 weeks during the gestation period. Ten female control Beagles were similarly inoculated with phosphate-buffered saline solution. Prior to the start of the study, all females and 3 males used for breeding were seronegative for B burgdorferi on the basis of results of the indirect fluorescent antibody test and immunoblot (western analysis. Similarly, results of culture of blood for B burgdorferi were negative. All 20 of the females were bred naturally. Blood samples were collected weekly for serologic testing and culture. Blood samples were obtained from live pups on day 1 of life, then weekly until pups were 6 weeks old when they were euthanatized. Tissues were obtained for culture and testing by use of polymerase chain reaction (PCR). Of 10 spirochete-inoculated (SI) females, 8 became infected with B burgdorferi as evidenced by spirochete culture results and/or PCR-detected B burgdorferi DNA in the tissues of females or their pups. Of the 10 SI females, 8 delivered litters (3 to 7 pups) that had at least 1 neonatal or 6-week-old pup with B burgdorferi DNA-positive tissues (by PCR), and spirochetes were cultured from tissues from pups of 2 litters. (ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS) NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 8323057 NLM CIT. ID: 93311737 SOURCE: Am J Vet Res 1993 Jun;54(6):882-90
TITLE: Borrelia burgdorferi infection in dairy cows, rodents, and birds from four Wisconsin dairy farms. AUTHORS: Burgess EC; Wachal MD; Cleven TD AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Medical Science, University of Wisconsin, School of Veterinary Medicine, Madison 53706. ABSTRACT: A combination of culture and subsequent spirochete identification with the polymerase chain reaction technique was used to identify cows, rodents, and birds infected with Borrelia burgdorferi. Animals were trapped on four Wisconsin dairy farms during the summer of 1990. Farms 1 and 2 were located in counties nonendemic for Lyme disease and Farms 3 and 4 were located in counties endemic for Lyme disease. The results of the rodent and bird samples were as follows given as the number yielding organisms number tested: Farm 1, 1/17 Mus musculus and 2/52 Peromyscus domesticus; Farm 2, 4/49 M. musculus, 1/2 P. maniculatus, 1/1 P. leucopus, and 1/35 P. domesticus; Farm 3, 0/27 M. musculus, 0/5 P. leucopus, 0/12 P. maniculatus and, 3/58 P. domesticus; and Farm 4, 1/24 M. musculus, 2/19 P. leucopus, 1/12 Microtus pennsylvanicus, and 0/17 P. domesticus. One P. leucopus and one M. musculus from Farm 2 were pregnant and fetal tissues from both were positive. Cow blood sample results were as follows: Farm 1, 7/47 in July, and 2/45 in August; Farm 2, 0/28 in August and 0/23 in October; Farm 3, 0/13 in July and 1/18 in August 29; and Farm 4, 3/45 in August. Ticks were found on rodents on Farm 4 and on one bird on Farm 3. Spirochetemic cows, rodents, and birds were found in non-Lyme endemic counties suggesting that alternate modes of transmission other than by ticks may be important. Transplacental transmission was shown in M. musculus and P. leucopus. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 8362496 NLM CIT. ID: 93369938 SOURCE: Vet Microbiol 1993 May;35(1-2):61-77
TITLE: Borrelia sp. infection in coyotes, black-tailed jack rabbits and desert cottontails in southern Texas. AUTHORS: Burgess EC; Windberg LA AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Medical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53706. ABSTRACT: Coyotes (Canis latrans) from southern Texas were sampled for antibodies to Borrelia burgdorferi from 1980 to 1986; black-tailed jack rabbits (Lepus californicus) and desert cottontails (Sylvilagus audubonii) were sampled in 1986. Coyote fetuses, adult coyote kidneys, and black-tailed jack rabbit and desert cottontail kidneys were cultured for B. burgdorferi in 1986. Results of indirect immunofluorescent antibody (IFA) tests for B. burgdorferi in coyotes were as follows (number positive at a dilution of greater than or equal to 1:128/number tested): 1980 (0 of 30), 1981 (0 of 21), 1982 (0 of 53), 1983 (0 of 78), 1984 (47 of 97), 1985 (20 of 88), and 1986 (42 of 80). Eight of 26 black-tailed jack rabbits and two of seven desert cottontails tested in 1986 had IFA titers to B. burgdorferi of greater than or equal to 1:128. Borrelia burgdorferi was isolated from one of five coyote fetuses, three of 31 adult coyote kidneys, and two of 10 black-tailed jack rabbit kidneys in 1986. These results indicate that B. burgdorferi infection has been present in coyotes in Texas, at least since 1984 and that transplacental transmission occurs. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2644452 NLM CIT. ID: 89125773 SOURCE: J Wildl Dis 1989 Jan;25(1):47-51
TITLE: Borrelia burgdorferi infection in Wisconsin horses and cows. AUTHORS: Burgess EC AUTHOR AFFILIATION: School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53706. ABSTRACT: Blood samples from Wisconsin horses and cows suspected of having clinical disease due to Borrelia burgdorferi infection were submitted by veterinary practitioners. All serum, milk, colostrum, and synovial samples were tested for B. burgdorferi antibodies by immunofluorescence. Whole blood, milk, colostrum, and synovial fluid samples were cultured for B. burgdorferi. Records were kept on the clinical signs of antibody-positive animals, date of sample, and location of the animal by county. Of the samples tested for antibodies 282/430 cow sera, 118/190 horse sera, 5/10 cow synovial fluids, 3/6 horse synovial fluids, 2/3 cow colostrums, 0/44 cow milk samples and 1 aborted fetus serum were antibody positive at a titer of 1:128 or greater. Of samples cultured 7/156 cow bloods, 2/35 horse bloods, 1/14 cow synovial fluids, 0/4 synovial fluids, 1/3 cow colostrums, 0/44 cow milk, and 2/10 cow urine samples were B. burgdorferi culture positive. For both cows and horses October and May were the two peak months for the number of antibody-positive samples. The most frequent clinical signs in antibody-positive horses and cows were lameness and swollen joints, but many also had stiffness, laminitis, abortions, and fevers. Not all antibody-positive animals showed clinical signs. These findings show that B. burgdorferi infection occurs in horses and cows and can cause clinical illness in some but not all animals. Infection in cows and horses occurs most frequently 1 month after the emergence of adult I. dammini. Because spirochetes could be isolated from blood, synovial fluid, colostrum, and urine, these animals could be important in providing an infected blood meal for ticks and bringing B. burgdorferi in direct contact with humans. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 3190095 NLM CIT. ID: 89048796 SOURCE: Ann N Y Acad Sci 1988;539:235-43
TITLE: Seasonal prevalence of Borrelia burgdorferi in natural populations of white-footed mice, Peromyscus leucopus. AUTHORS: Anderson JF; Johnson RC; Magnarelli LA ABSTRACT: Borrelia burgdorferi, the etiologic agent of Lyme disease, was isolated from 111 of 237 Peromyscus leucopus captured during all seasons of the year. Borreliae were cultured from tissues of the spleen (101 mice), left kidney (76 mice), and right kidney (73 mice), from blood (12 mice), and from one fetus. Mice were infected during the winter, when immature Ixodes dammini were inactive. The prevalence of infection during the winter (less than or equal to 33%) was more than twofold lower than that during the summer (ca. 75%), a time when nymphal ticks are abundant. Overwintering, infected mice are reservoir hosts for subadult ticks that begin feeding in early spring. Twenty white-footed mice from which B. burgdorferi was isolated from tissues of spleen or kidney but not from blood were parasitized by larval I. dammini or Dermacentor variabilis which harbored borreliae. We conclude that these mice were infectious to feeding ticks, even though borreliae were not isolated from blood. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 3624451 NLM CIT. ID: 87308743 SOURCE: J Clin Microbiol 1987 Aug;25(8):1564-6
TITLE: Update: Lyme disease and cases occurring during pregnancy--United States. See full-text article at: CDC MMWR: Lyme Disease and Cases Occurring during Pregnancy -- US, June 28, 1985 NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 3925314 NLM CIT. ID: 85240257 SOURCE: MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 1985 Jun 28;34(25):376-8, 383-4 [No abstract available.]
References, citations only (i.e., no abstract available.)
TITLE: Neonatal skin lesions due to a spirochetal infection: a case of congenital Lyme borreliosis? AUTHORS: Trevisan G; Stinco G; Cinco M AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Institute of Dermatology, University of Trieste, Italy. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 9352409 NLM CIT. ID: 98013686 SOURCE: Int J Dermatol 1997 Sep;36(9):677-80 [No abstract available.]
TITLE: [Pathology of pregnancy and the fetus in Lyme disease] VERNACULAR TITLE: Patologiia beremennosti i ploda pri bolezni Laima. AUTHORS: Elsukova LV; Korenberg EI; Kozin GA NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 7715559 NLM CIT. ID: 95231409 SOURCE: Med Parazitol (Mosk) 1994 Oct-Dec;(4):59-62 [No abstract available.]
TITLE: Lyme disease during pregnancy. ACOG Committee Opinion: Committee on Obstetrics: Maternal and Fetal Medicine. Number 99--November 1991. AUTHORS: NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 1358705 NLM CIT. ID: 93050632 SOURCE: Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1992 Sep;39(1):59-60 [No abstract available.]
TITLE: Lyme disease: a review with emphasis on the pregnant woman. AUTHORS: Smith LG Jr; Pearlman M; Smith LG; Faro S AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas 77030. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2014072 NLM CIT. ID: 91194878 SOURCE: Obstet Gynecol Surv 1991 Mar;46(3):125-30 [No abstract available.]
TITLE: Lyme disease during pregnancy. AUTHORS: Edly SJ AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick 08903. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2200981 NLM CIT. ID: 90349122 SOURCE: N J Med 1990 Jul;87(7):557-60
TITLE: Lyme borreliosis during pregnancy. AUTHORS: Stiernstedt G AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Infectious Diseases, Danderyd Hospital, Sweden. NLM PUBMED CIT. ID: 2287925 NLM CIT. ID: 91142741 SOURCE: Scand J Infect Dis Suppl 1990;71:99-100 [No abstract available.]
posted
Thanks Tincup for posting researching this. I wish this had been available when we had our son. He is now 15 yrs old and under the excellent care of Dr. Jones. With the Drs. help, our son has reached the point where he is tracking with other students academically and in sports. The turn around has been fanstastic.
Posts: 546 | From Cascadia subduction zone | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I have wondered about these abstracts, heartbreaking results.
But it is very difficult to find studies on women who are TREATED apropriately/preventatively during pregnancy.
I also have a study not yet completed, but very consistant conclusions that congenital Lyme has very high incidence in women infected with LD.
That study is being conducted by Doc J.
But the women are untreated. So I wonder why, then, Doc J and Doc B feel a treated pregnancy is very likely to have a favorable outcome.
He must be following the cases, as he has been treating kids so long.
I wish there was more info on the women who are treated with amoxicillan, some use Bicillan,too, with more active infection..hough I would guess women feeling very healthy are the ones most likely to be able to have a healthy pregnancy and baby.
And he recommends testing the umbilical cord at birth to help monitor the situation.
Mo
[This message has been edited by Mo (edited 13 August 2003).]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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aaronkatie
Unregistered
posted
Thanks TC, As usual, very informative - especially as I watch my 2 congenital lyme children slip into former shells of themselves!!
Too bad doctors(ducks) couldn't figure out people had lyme earlier than more people could make informed decisions!
posted
Tincup, I am sure if we could sit and have coffee together tomorrow, we would be great buddies. I have appreciated your posts in the past.
I respect your right to give your opinion.
I hope you'll respect my right to reply.
I want to put this post above in perspective, for those who should happen upon this post in the future during a search.
This post by Tincup is in response to an ongoing thread posted originally by skrwolf "I want to get Pregnant - help with advice please."� (anyone can search for this thread to gain some insight)� (please someone link it to this thread if you know how).
The responses of that thread somehow turned from giving support and telling of personal stories, to an indictment of any Mom who would be so cruel to birth a child knowing they had lyme disease, and especially because so many children are out there needing to be adopted.� (Tincup's argument)
Many of us vehemently disagree with this attitude, and find it irrational, and many of us believe based on the advice of our LLMDs, that we can give birth to healthy babies.
Now, specifically addressing this to you Tincup, you mentioned you spent the day on the phone calling several LLMDs and you posted 25 pages of negative "lyme and pregnancy" information above.�
I would like to know "why"?� What motivates you to spend your day doing this, in response to skrwolf's post.� Skrwolf was not asking you whether or not she should have a baby, that decision was hers, she was asking for support and information from those who have given birth, and who could help her.� But you've taken this on as a personal crusade to beat her in to the ground.� And that is not appropriate in a forum designed to give strength and support and accurate information. (underline accurate)
You know more than anyone that these articles you posted don't tell even 1% of the story.� I could easily prove my point by posting 25 pages of information about how there is no such thing as "chronic lyme "of which you claim to have, and that the CDC guidelines are adequate to treat late stage lyme and all LLMDs and lymies are quacks.� You do agree that information is out there stating just that, don't you?� Does it mean it is relevant or true?��When you first talked to me about chronic lyme would you have appreciated a 25 page scientific challenge to your claim you have chronic lyme, a condition that is obviously in your head according to so many articles out there?� The articles you posted above are meant to harass skrwolf because they do NOT tell the story or describe the risks associated with pregnancy and lyme. They were not intended to help anyone seek the truth.
Tincup, you have filled this thread with information on fetal death associated with lyme.� Can you tell me if those mothers were infected with lyme DURING pregnancy or not?� (obviously relevant because a mother infected with any herpes virus, including chickenpox, or EBV during pregnancy will risk fetal abnormalities and fetal death).
Tincup, what is the exact statistical incidence of transmission of lyme to an unborn child, and please break it down in to groups of relevant categories, like women who were infected with lyme during pregnancy, versus women who have had lyme for years, versus women who were treated and those who were untreated during pregnancy. THAT is information that would help!!! If you can't glean this information from your 25 pages above, then all your posts above are for sh*t. They are just a small piece of a very huge puzzle coming after your very judgemental posts to skrwolf in the other thread.
I trust my LLMD and he says the risk of transmission while on amoxicillin during the pregnancy is very low, below 1%. He says there are wholly inadequate studies on all aspects of lyme and the results are all over the boards when it comes to lyme disease, but that I should feel confident in giving birth after my treatment. I really trust him.
I want relevant statistics, not the parade of horribles you've posted above, and I believe my LLMD that we would have a healthy lyme free child given proper treatment and monitoring. If you don't want to give birth in your current situation, then don't. But stop the crusade to make villains of all those who would dare give birth post-lyme.
It is NOT a rational argument.
Do you realize that every pregnant woman faces far graver risks than lyme disease? With West Nile and SARS, it is extremely risky in this day and age to even consider having a child. But shocker of all shockers, people still are getting pregnant.
And to bring a child in to this world with the current threat of terrorism, is that responsible?
What about women who have genetic histories of cancer, and heart disease, should they not have a baby when heart disease is the number one killer of women and one in four women will get breast cancer alone, not to mention all the other terrible cancers?�
What about women who are married to men who are adopted, should they NOT take the risk since they don't know the myriad of possibilities the unknown DNA could present?� Maybe the birthmom had familial ALS or Hunington's disease. Should no adopted person ever give birth?� (In actuality, none of us have our genes mapped out, it is a big ole crapshoot.)�
In addition, every pregnant woman should know that if you are over 35 your risk of having a down syndrome child increases significantly.� It is interesting, however, many of my friends have had babies over 35 and as shocking as this may sound, none of them have down syndrome babies.
How about a child born with Cerebral Palsy.� CP is a significant risk with an unknown cause, that all pregnant mother's face.� How about women with diabetes, they are high risk pregnancies.
How about your own parents Tincup, I doubt they had pure and perfect genes, but they had you anyway, despite the risks.� And you said you had children of your own, how could you do that knowing that once they were born they could be bitten by a tick?
I think if you are going to be so adamant that anyone with lyme disease not have children, even if their own doctors support the decision and report GOOD results, then why not be true to course and also advocate that nobody EVER let their children outside.� Especially if you live in an endemic area.� Because, the reality is that any child can be bitten by a tick and THIS is the usual mode of transmission to a child, not through an infected mother.� I do not have the time to post 25 pages of articles and statistics on how many children were infected alone in Connecticut, however I do know that they were infected in their back yards, and from animals carrying ticks in to their homes, and from usual and every day activities.� So can you believe the nerve of anyone birthing a child in Connecticut, KNOWING they could be infected with lyme while outside on their slip -and -slide?�
I think you should start a new post on this issue, advocating that nobody let their child outside if they are going to be responsible and moral parents.� (Especially when they could adopt a child and live in Montana, a place where no lyme has been reported!)
The chances of passing on lyme to one's child is low, and that is from an UNTREATED mother. I do believe my LLMD on this, I think he is very knowledgeable, and if I decided or skrwolf decided to have another child after we felt our treatment was completed, the LLMD would monitor us and treat us and we would not fall in to the category of the parade of horribles you chose to spend all day accumulating on this thread above.
However, if I did decide to have another child, I would be over 35, so I could have a down syndrome child.� Damn. I better just have my tubes tied, as should all women.� Race over.� (the human race that is).
Tincup, I do respect you and value your input with sincere gratefulness, but I think you have gone way off course here, you are not trying to present both sides of this issue, you have a personal agenda to berate any lymie who is considering having a child, especially skrwolf who really touched me with her expression of complete and utter depression after reading your posts to her on the other thread.
And to me, that is just plain cruel. Enough is enough.
I hope anyone reading this post, will not be simply horrified and scared by Tincup's one sided scientific buffet table, and will take the time to evaluate all known information, in consultation with their doctors (LLMDs) and their family. Information is power, and that means ALL sides of the coin, and having a child or not having a child is a very personal and private decision.
To skrwolf, I want to tell you that I do not advocate that you do or do not have a baby now, you never asked my opinion on that! I pray for wisdom, and good doctors, and family support for you so you can make the best decision given all information.
If you decide to have a baby, best of luck to you and dwell on the joy you are about to experience, because there is nothing as pure and as precious as bringing a child in to this world to love and nurture.
I wish life came with a guarantee, but it doesn't.
Respectfully,
TesMes
P.S. Tincup, you should stop having sex immediately, some articles have stated the possibility of lyme being transmitted to your partner this way, and there is no 100% safe sex, so time to start growing the cobwebs and abstaining permanently!!! (smile, tongue in cheek, and going to bed now . . . sigh)
Posts: 169 | From Washington USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
I do hope this information collected here helps those who are searching for information. Thanks for the responses.
To reply to the above questions asked of me...
Tesmes said..
"Now, specifically addressing this to you Tincup, you mentioned you spent the day on the phone calling several LLMDs and you posted 25 pages of negative "lyme and pregnancy" information above. I would like to know "why"? What motivates you to spend your day doing this..."
I am here basically for one reason. I do not want anyone to have to go through what I went through for years. If I can help prevent that in some small way.. my goal will be met.
Plus.. I have come to love the folks here. I try to help when I can.. and they are so goofy they make a me smile.
My calls all over the country all day were because I needed quotes from LLMD's for a new article I have been asked to write... that will be published next month. Stay tuned for more information on that topic...
In addition, I wanted UPDATED information on the topic concerning risks of having a child while having ACTIVE.. remember that word ACTIVE... Lyme.
The reponses I was hearing at the other post were only from a few patients (or from friends of the patient who logged on at the last minute in support)... supposedly via a LLMD... and they differered greatly from what I have been seeing while researching this and other topics for the past 15 years.
I wanted to double check MYSELF... and see if things had changed and I was missing something. While I was on the phone getting quotes and lots more good information... I asked for information on this topic and actually spend hours on the phone discussing several topics with wonderful and knowledgable folks.
I reported back information that was from the LLMD's offices... not my own "stuff" or opinions here.
I also stated clearly above that this was a one sided post when I said.. "Yes, I am focused here on the negative side of purposely becoming pregnant while having an active Lyme infection."
Truth is... I couldn't find much to support the positive side. Sorry. I will continue to watch for reports that are positive.. but it is early in the research and I haven't seen them yet.
You said...
"Skrwolf was not asking you whether or not she should have a baby, that decision was hers, she was asking for support and information from those who have given birth, and who could help her."
If someone said,
"I am going to jump off the Empire State building and would like to know how to prepare sweet and sour meatballs."
Well.. prior to providing that recipe.. someone MAY just want to share the fact that part of the plan MAY have some complications. Ya think?
If we have a chance to prevent a possible new case of Lyme.. be it by a tick bite, sexual transmission, or congenital transmission.. we are all going to take it. That is what we do here.
"But you've taken this on as a personal crusade to beat her in to the ground. And that is not appropriate in a forum designed to give strength and support and accurate information. (underline accurate)"
If you can prove the facts from these doctors above are inaccurate... or the statements I made here from the information I got from LLMD's offices are inaccurate.. please do. I am sorry if the research above hurts anyone. It sure hurt me.
I am sorry you feel I am taking an opportunity to beat someone in the ground. However.. I look at it differently... because I do not agree with a person or want them to THINK first before jumping, to me, that does not mean I am "beating them into the ground."
If someone comes here and wants opinions.. fine. If I see something that appears to be a dangerous situation in the making... I will not compromise my principals and make fluff of a situation because that is what someone wants to hear. If someone has chest pain.. I say go to the ER, NOW! If they have an allergic reaction.. I say get help NOW. I try to error on the side of caution and do not appologise for that.
If someone here had AIDS, Syphlis, a severe genetic disorder.. or any other condition that may compromise the health of the mother or child... I would be remiss not to point out the facts so they could make an informed decision.
I have backed up my opinions with the best information available to me at this time.... which is over and above what any one else has done concerning this topic. I hope it will be useful to those who don't have the time or energy to do a complete search for the few documents we do have scattered all over the place..
Keep in mind.. I also do this same exact thing with Bartonella, Babesiosis, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, sexual transmission, L-Glutamine, herbs, etc. I don't have folks jumping on my head about that information though... some actually find it helpful.
I also warned folks NOT to look at the information if they would be disturbed by it. I tried... but obviously it didn't sink in? I know there are many times when I have to say to myself... "If you can't hunt with the big dogs.. get off the porch." Many days I can't handle some things... and I think that is natural.
"You know more than anyone that these articles you posted don't tell even 1% of the story. I could easily prove my point by posting 25 pages of information about how there is no such thing as "chronic lyme "of which you claim to have, and that the CDC guidelines are adequate to treat late stage lyme and all LLMDs and lymies are quacks."
If you feel it important to do that.. please feel free.
"When you first talked to me about chronic lyme would you have appreciated a 25 page scientific challenge to your claim you have chronic lyme, a condition that is obviously in your head according to so many articles out there?"
Been there.. done that. I am the queen of attracting ducks and their bad information. Now I research all sides.
"The articles you posted above are meant to harass skrwolf because they do NOT tell the story or describe the risks associated with pregnancy and lyme. They were not intended to help anyone seek the truth."
Again, I am sorry you feel that way. Keep in mind... I didn't write them.
If you want to verify the information above, the sites are provided and you are welcome to to contact the researchers and doctors for more information. Please don't kill the messenger because you don't like what the messages are saying.
"Tincup, you have filled this thread with information on fetal death associated with lyme. Can you tell me if those mothers were infected with lyme DURING pregnancy or not?"
Again, please contact the ones who have first hand knowledge. If you doubt their findings.. please tell THEM so. I am only borrowing their information and placing it on one site for others. Many of our past posts have disappeared... so this may be of help to those who want serious information now or in the future?
"Tincup, what is the exact statistical incidence of transmission of lyme to an unborn child, and please break it down in to groups of relevant categories, like women who were infected with lyme during pregnancy, versus women who have had lyme for years, versus women who were treated and those who were untreated during pregnancy. THAT is information that would help!!!"
May I suggest?
I am sorry I am limited on time and really wish I could spend more time on this topic... but.. alas I am not able... and since you are passionate about the topic and are considering child birth and have a new friend who could use the facts... perhaps you could do the work and share your findings with others. The information above was enough for me to get an overview. If you can answer those questions I will be happy to read about them... and will thank you for spending time your valuable time researching them.
"If you can't glean this information from your 25 pages above, then all your posts above are for sh*t."
Now now now...
If you feel this way.. please contact the doctors above and share your opinion with them too. Remember.. I did not write them. I am only posting them so others can consider the facts when making decisions.
"I trust my LLMD and he says the risk of transmission while on amoxicillin during the pregnancy is very low, below 1%. He says there are wholly inadequate studies on all aspects of lyme and the results are all over the boards when it comes to lyme disease, but that I should feel confident in giving birth after my treatment. I really trust him."
That is wonderful relationship you have with your LLMD. If you are happy with his advise... fine. I am happy for you.
"I want relevant statistics, not the parade of horribles you've posted above, and I believe my LLMD that we would have a healthy lyme free child given proper treatment and monitoring."
I thought you said you were happy with your LLMD's advise? But just in case... If you can find more information.. please post it here for others. Perhaps your LLMD can direct you to the statistics and research info he/she used when coming up with that 1% figure? That might be a good start.
"If you don't want to give birth in your current situation, then don't."
OK.
"But stop the crusade to make villains of all those who would dare give birth post-lyme. It is NOT a rational argument."
I am sorry that you feel that I am doing this by posting medical abstracts.
"Do you realize that every pregnant woman faces far graver risks than lyme disease? With West Nile and SARS, it is extremely risky in this day and age to even consider having a child. But shocker of all shockers, people still are getting pregnant."
That is their decision to make. If they post here asking questions and don't expect an opinion... they came to the wrong place. If I see trouble brewing.. I WILL do what I can to prevent a child from suffering... and I WILL provide facts to back up my statemnts and research.
"And to bring a child in to this world with the current threat of terrorism, is that responsible?"
I am not knowledgable in that field.. sorry. Perhaps check with the Red Cross Disaster Services to see if they know?
"What about women who have genetic histories of cancer, and heart disease, should they not have a baby when heart disease is the number one killer of women and one in four women will get breast cancer alone, not to mention all the other terrible cancers?"
Again.. I am not able to address all of the medical concerns you have. You might want to try and Yahoo to find those answers?
"What about women who are married to men who are adopted, should they NOT take the risk since they don't know the myriad of possibilities the unknown DNA could present? Maybe the birthmom had familial ALS or Hunington's disease. Should no adopted person ever give birth? (In actuality, none of us have our genes mapped out, it is a big ole crapshoot.)"
Sorry.. I am not able to answer all of your questions. My little brain can't fly in that many directions at once.. and they are basically not tick borne disease related questions. There should be other sites where folks know MUCH more on those topics than I do. Google or Yahoo searches may help you find the answers?
"In addition, every pregnant woman should know that if you are over 35 your risk of having a down syndrome child increases significantly. It is interesting, however, many of my friends have had babies over 35 and as shocking as this may sound, none of them have down syndrome babies."
That is nice to hear.. I am happy for them.
"How about a child born with Cerebral Palsy. CP is a significant risk with an unknown cause, that all pregnant mother's face. How about women with diabetes, they are high risk pregnancies."
You seem to have a good background in this topic.. please do follow through and post the answers in case someone might want to know.
"How about your own parents Tincup, I doubt they had pure and perfect genes, but they had you anyway, despite the risks."
My parents were perfect, of course. That is what they always told me.
But don't say nothing... cause they blew it when they had meeeee. HA!
"And you said you had children of your own, how could you do that knowing that once they were born they could be bitten by a tick?"
I didn't know. Not at all. I had kids back in the "olden days". HAD I known... I would have been thankful for the information and opinions... for sure. HOPEFULLY I wouldn't attack the messenger.
"I think if you are going to be so adamant that anyone with lyme disease not have children, even if their own doctors support the decision and report GOOD results.."
I am sorry. I don't remember saying that.. not at all. If someones doctor provides all of the facts.. and the person still wants a child... that is their decission. Did anyones doctor give them the McDonald report/book? To be informed.. they might want to review it?
" then why not be true to course and also advocate that nobody EVER let their children outside."
Again.. I don't remember saying no one should ever have a child if they have Lyme and I am all for the great outdoors. I am saying.. someone should be aware of the current facts we have available before they purposely attempt to get pregnant while actively infected with Lyme.. or before going outside and purposely exposing themselves to ticks.. They should be aware of the dangers and risks to themselves and the unborn fetus.. as well as the problems that might appear years down the road.
"I do not have the time to post 25 pages of articles and statistics on how many children were infected alone in Connecticut, however I do know that they were infected in their back yards, and from animals carrying ticks in to their homes, and from usual and every day activities."
Lyme.. any way you get it.. is sad. My heart breaks for the children who suffer... and for the parents who must watch the suffering.. helpless to do much about it.
"So can you believe the nerve of anyone birthing a child in Connecticut, KNOWING they could be infected with lyme while outside on their slip -and -slide?"
I hope they have the facts available to them. We are here trying to do just that... I hope they come visit.
"I think you should start a new post on this issue, advocating that nobody let their child outside if they are going to be responsible and moral parents. (Especially when they could adopt a child and live in Montana, a place where no lyme has been reported!)"
Maybe ask the doctors in the articles above to start a new post? It is THEIR information... not mine.
"The chances of passing on lyme to one's child is low, and that is from an UNTREATED mother. I do believe my LLMD on this, I think he is very knowledgeable, and if I decided or skrwolf decided to have another child after we felt our treatment was completed, the LLMD would monitor us and treat us and we would not fall in to the category of the parade of horribles you chose to spend all day accumulating on this thread above."
I wish you happiness... and I am glad to see you will now have the most updated research available. Skrwolf has been very active in helping many folks both here at Lyme Net and in her local area. I thank her for helping to spread the word on the problems with tick borne diseases. She has helped many people with her efforts... and we do love her and care what happens to her.
"However, if I did decide to have another child, I would be over 35, so I could have a down syndrome child. Damn. I better just have my tubes tied, as should all women. Race over. (the human race that is)."
You are a passionate one.. for sure.
"Tincup, I do respect you and value your input with sincere gratefulness.."
Are you sucking up now? hehehe
" but I think you have gone way off course here, you are not trying to present both sides of this issue, you have a personal agenda to berate any lymie who is considering having a child.."
If you go back and actually READ my posts.. I did not say the things I was accused of saying. I gave an opinion... MY opinion... and I refused to continue the discussion once God was brought into the picture. That is why I removed myself from that post and started a post of facts only... and not MY facts... facts from doctors who are doing work in this field.
"especially skrwolf who really touched me with her expression of complete and utter depression after reading your posts to her on the other thread."
I was also deeply deeply depressed because I could not have any more children due to Lyme. It isn't fair. I have still not gotten over it. Lyme took that from me too. I was not a happy camper. But, I have to live with it now... and forever... and I will. When someone is faced with this bad news.. it is a tragic time. My heart goes out to all of us in this sitation. I share their pain and can relate totally.
"And to me, that is just plain cruel. Enough is enough."
PLEASE.. write your comments to the politicians.. to the ducks.. to the newspapers... to anyone who will listen. I agree... Lyme sucks and is cruel. I didn't invent it though.. I am only trying to share what I do know.. and facts to back it up as I can find them.
I am not trying to be the monster here. If I come across as "monster-like" by reporting the medical information .. I am sorry for that. I am not sorry for my opinions. If I am provided good information from reliable sources, I will take it into account and weigh the risks. But for now.. my opinion stands as is.. and is such...
Anyone who considers getting pregnant while actively infected with Lyme should know the most updated information out there in order to make the best choice possible.. and consider FIRST the child who has no say in the matter above their own present desires.
"I hope anyone reading this post, will not be simply horrified and scared by Tincup's one sided scientific buffet table, and will take the time to evaluate all known information, in consultation with their doctors (LLMDs) and their family. Information is power, and that means ALL sides of the coin, and having a child or not having a child is a very personal and private decision."
Very well said. I agree 100 percent.
"Tincup, you should stop having sex immediately, some articles have stated the possibility of lyme being transmitted to your partner this way, and there is no 100% safe sex, so time to start growing the cobwebs and abstaining permanently!!!"
Thanks for your opinions. Hope I have answered your questions.
posted
I have to totally agree with TinCup on this issue. Over the last week I have become real concerned about how this disease is transmitted. This is truely a cruel disease, and knowing that you have it and ignoring the posibilities is criminal.
Since the ducks, politicians and almost everyone else wishes to ignore the dangers of this disease, it is our responsibility to do what we can to limit its transmission. I for one do believe in abstaining from sex until I have conclusive information. This even includes kissing for me.
I know this sounds extreme, but I could not live with myself knowing that I gave this disease to anyone else. Yes it is a paranoid feeling and yes I am being compulsive, but I am also being a realist. I have seen to many families now infected with this disease not to be concerned.
I am even concerned about mosquitoes biting me then biting someone else giving them Lyme. I really feel that this is a real possibility, even the health department has admitted this one with other diseases. I really do want to live a real life, but not to take precautions is irresponsible.
I do know that you can go only so far. No I am not going to be a hermit, nor am I going to make my kids ones either. But I will take responsible steps to do my part to stop the transmission of this disease.
I think TinCup is being very responsible even if there was only a 1% chance that Lyme could be trasmitted to a fetus through the mother. If it is a known that the mother has Lyme and gets pregnant on purpose it is a totally selfish act that should not have taken place. Yes there are alot of diseases that a women could have prior to and during pregnancy that will cause harm, if it was me I would weigh all the issues before I decided to have a child, this even includes cancer for me.
All of us did not choose the state we are in, that is a given, but we can at least possibly protect others from sharing in our grief. This is the responsible thing.
Posts: 533 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2003
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cootiegirl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3216
posted
Tincup, Thanks for posting these articles. I think they are a valuable addition to the archives for those that have questions about the transmission of lyme disease.
This topic has certainly been a charged one, resulting in lots of hurt feelings and people possibly leaving the board....When passions run high on an issue, people speak their minds, and do so with great conviction. The issue of transmitting lyme disease to an unborn child or even to a sexual partner is not the only highly charged issue here - look at ICHT and mercury detox threads - wow do tempers flare with those!!!
There obviously is no hard and fast answer as to the safety of a pregnancy when the mother has lyme disease. All the literature in the world, pro or con, will not determine the outcome of each and every pregnancy.
Certainly there are risks in any pregnancy and if that is the case, some here have said that no child should be born. What kind of silly logic is that? No, I'm not calling anyone in particular silly, but we are not talking day to day risk here when it comes to genetics or bacterial/viral risks. And to compare genetic risks with bacterial/viral risks, you might as well compare apples to oranges.
Genetic transmission of conditions typically (there are other forms of transmission but I won't bore you with a genetics lecture!) require a recessive gene from each parent, so that statistically you are looking at a 1 in 4 chance of having a child effected with conditions such as CF, sickle cell, or some of the dystrophies.
Down Syndrome is in a league all its own. While it was once believed that maternal age was a major determining factor, there are others. Sometimes the occurence of Down Syndrome is a total genetic fluke with no clear explanation....Incidentally the increased risk of having a Down Syndrome child after the age of 35 is for first time mothers. It is actually a greater risk to have amniocentisis done and miscarry than it is to give birth in your thirties to a child with Down Syndrome.
So the bottom line here is that the transmission of genetic problems is fairly low. Now everyone will have a differenct perspective on this - kind of like the glass being half full/half empty. For one family, a 25% chance of having a child with a genetic problem is relatively low; for another, it is more than they could bear....
Then there are the illnesses which are a combination of genetics and environment - the exact combination which is unknown-breast cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure, etc. You can't really assign a statistical percentage to these cases because a multitude of variables are at play and one can override their genetic propensity for some of these conditions by modifying their environment.....
As for bacterial/viral conditions, you are looking at the transmission of a disease. A disease is passing thru the body be it Lyme, AIDS, syphillis, toxoplasmosis, etc. The articles presented here while looking at syphillis, a kissing cousin to lyme disease, look at a rate of infection that is much higher than the 25% chance that comes with a genetic anomaly. Now I am not saying that genetic anomalies are somehow better to have than a bacterial/viral condition....just wanted to get that out because some people will jump to that conclusion.....
Are there cases that beat the odds? Absolutely. There is that woman out there that has a healthy child at 42. Someone's Uncle Freddy lived to the ripe old age of 97 and drank whisky and smoked cigars everyday. And there are children born without lyme disease....
There is a body of research that is currently looking at a small group of babies that have been born to HIV positive mothers who have not tested postive for the virus....what is going on in their immune systems to fight off this virus, and what is going on with the HIV virus? Will the virus never effect them or will it turn up much later in their lives?
Again, I do believe the topic has been an interesting one. I certainly have learned from it.
cootiegirl
Posts: 1728 | From New York State | Registered: Oct 2002
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Are you so full of yourself and on such a high horse that you can't respond to me personally and feel the need to continue to prove yourself right and make sarcastic comments to continue to berate me?
How is it any better for you to say:
"I contacted several LLMD's offices .. still waiting on a call back from a couple... and I asked about the outcomes of those who were pregnant and had Lyme."
Who are these LLMD's? WHO are YOUR SOURCES? I could find LLMD's to support either side of the fence in any lyme issue. How is your report from so-called LLMD's worth anymore than our reports of 1-4%?
"All children born to Lyme mothers in one report were positive for Lyme in spite of being treated during pregnancy". WHAT report is this? Where is your proof?
I have read everyone of these abstracts LONG before you posted them. Look at a few things:
1. Most of these abstracts were from the late 1980's, early 1990's. That was 10-15 years ago. That is an eternity when it comes to medicine, especially lyme.
2. Almost all of the abstracts are in regards to untreated women giving birth to children. No one has disputed this fact.
In any post that I have seen from you regarding children and lyme, you have raved about Dr. J. Why is it then that he feels that you have have a very, very low chance of having a baby infected with lyme if treated properly? Why has he told women (who have personally contacted me) that they could safely get pregnant? Why would Dr. B say:
The Lyme Disease Foundation sponsored a pregnancy registry for nearly ten years. It tracked pregnant Lyme patients, and the cord blood and the placenta were tested for Lyme. If the mother was kept on adequate doses of antibiotics during the entire pregnancy, then there were NO Lyme-related problems in the baby.
WHY HAVE YOU NOT ADDRESSED THIS ISSUE? I have posted this several times and you have never responded.
I resent your sarcastic comment about
"(or from friends of the patient who logged on at the last minute in support)".
Yes, that was a very good friend. In fact, that was a very good friend whose husband was first diagnosed with Parkinson's and was disabled. He found out it was lyme. His family has been devastated by this disease. The poster of that message spoke from her heart. How dare you insult her or myself.
I caution anyone who reads Tincup's posts. She has a personal agenda. Look at her last post in the other thread about pregnancy. She claims to not personally attack... ANY intelligent person reading it can feel the sarcasm and name calling in it.
I do not believe for one minute that Tincup is doing this purely for informational reasons. If so, she would have ended the topic at the first thread.
Life does not begin and end for me at lyme. There are MANY worse diseases out there. I do not have syphillis... I have lyme. I personally know 6 women with lyme that have had 13 children - none of them with complications at birth or childhood.
If you would like to discuss my original topic about pregnancy and lyme, please see another post that will link to a yahoo group.
Shelly
[This message has been edited by skrwolf (edited 14 August 2003).]
posted
Knowledge is power. With all this knowledge you can give your child the best chance at health. If you had only the good news, you could not prepare for other possibilities. I know Lyme mothers who have had very good outcomes and some haven't done as well. Attacking the messenger gets us nowhere.
------------------ I am [email protected] and I believe lyme disease tests miss 99% of all lyme. I'm on Lymenet infrequently so if you need to speak to me, please email me privately.
http://www.actionlyme.com www.LymeTruth.org Lyme Disease Association 888-366-6611 and www.lymediseaseassociation.org www.lyme.org and (860) 5252000 email is [email protected] www.lymeinfo.net/lyme www.lymealliance.org www.lymeinfo.net/lyme[/URL] [URL=http://www.geocities.com/ldbullseye http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/forum1/HTML/009342.html] www.ilads.org www.faim.org/lyme
Am J Obstet Gynecol 1993 Aug;169(2 Pt 1):367-74 (ISSN: 0002-9378) Strobino BA; Williams CL; Abid S; Chalson R; Spierling P Department of Pediatrics, New York Medical College, Valhalla 10595. OBJECTIVE: The purpose of the study was to determine if prenatal exposure to Lyme disease was associated with an increased risk of adverse pregnancy outcome. STUDY DESIGN: Approximately 2000 Westchester County, New York, women completed questionnaires and had sera tested for antibody to Borrelia burgdorferi at their first prenatal visit and at delivery. Fetal death, birth weight, length of gestation at delivery, and congenital malformations were examined in relation to maternal Lyme disease exposure before and during pregnancy. RESULTS: Maternal Lyme disease or an increased risk of exposure to Lyme disease was not associated with fetal death, decreased birth weight, or length of gestation at delivery. Tick bites or Lyme disease around the time of conception was not associated with congenital malformations. Tick bites within 3 years preceding conception were significantly associated with congenital malformations, but this could have reflected reporting differences between exposed and unexposed women. CONCLUSIONS: Maternal exposure to Lyme disease before conception or during pregnancy is not associated with fetal death, prematurity, or congenital malformations taken as a whole. We have not ruled out the possibility that exposure to Lyme disease as defined by maternal history increases the risk of specific malformations or has an effect if it is not treated. We have insufficient numbers of women who were seropositive at their first prenatal visit to determine if this subgroup of exposed women are at a moderately increased risk of having a child with a congenital abnormality. The low frequency of seroconversion at delivery in this endemic area suggests that preventive measures are being taken by obstetricians and patients.
Teratology 2001 Nov;64(5):276-81 (ISSN: 0040-3709) Elliott DJ; Eppes SC; Klein JD Department of Pediatrics, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107, USA. We reviewed the world literature concerning the reproductive effects of Lyme disease (LD). Borrelia burgdorferi, which is the etiology of LD, is a spirochete and, as such, may share the potential for causing fetal infection, which may occur in the setting of maternal spirochetemia. Information concerning the effects of gestational LD derives from case reports and series, epidemiologic studies, and experimental animal models. Although provocative, these studies fail to define a characteristic teratogenic effect. However, skin and cardiac involvement have predominated in some reports. Pregnancy wastage has been suggested primarily by animal studies. Gestational LD appears to be associated with a low risk of adverse pregnancy outcome, particularly with appropriated antibiotic therapy. Suggestions for management of clinical situations are presented. [Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.].
Am J Obstet Gynecol 1999 Mar;180(3 Pt 1):711-6 (ISSN: 0002-9378) Strobino B; Abid S; Gewitz M Department of Pediatrics, New York Medical College-Westchester County Medical Center, Valhalla, New York, USA. OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to determine whether maternal Lyme disease increases the risk of congenital heart defect. Study Design: This retrospective case-control study was carried out at a medical center in a suburban area where Lyme disease is endemic. Case patients comprised 796 children with a diagnosis of congenital cardiac anomaly. Control subjects comprised 704 children without cardiac defects selected from the records of the same pediatric cardiology service. Maternal histories were obtained through a mailed questionnaire survey. Unconditional logistic regression analyses examined the relationship between a history of preconception and prenatal clinical Lyme disease or tick bite and case or control status. RESULTS: There was no association between congenital heart defect and maternal tick bite (adjusted odds ratio 1.1, 95% confidence interval 0.5-2.5) or maternal Lyme disease within 3 months of conception or during pregnancy (adjusted odds ratio 0.9; 95% confidence interval 0.2-3.6). CONCLUSION: A woman who has been bitten by a tick or is treated for Lyme disease during or before pregnancy is not at increased risk for giving birth to a child with a congenital heart defect.
posted
Hey..this should be about the unborn babies..and the information so badly needed on outcomes in treated situations..as pragnancy is often unplanned, or in some cases of LD can be planned safely..
2roads said: "What do we really know to be true. If we knew that we wouldn't be in this mess, bickering at eachother."
I think that's pretty profound.
That's the fact..and that it also depends on state of wellness, level of what can be best discerned, infection..
All the abstracts and experiences on congenital transmission do not apply to Skrwolf's situation.
Problem is the studies on her situation don't exist.
The best LD specialists in the country believe it's safe under certain conditions..alot of factors there.
There are many women, some who have posted and some who I'm sure have not, but really want to know. Actually may NEED to know. The answers to the question of treatment and outcome. It is up to the mother to become well informed enough to make her own responsible decision.
The subject is brought up and it is bashed with the adverse outcomes in very different situations, and also moralized to a great extent.
So..we can't get our answer here..because the subject is too tabu. That is the shame here, because there will be no formal studies for some time.
There are also no double blinded studies that say definitavely that long term abx are effective in treating Lyme Disease.
This should be about the babies..the ones that will be concieved, the ones that women with Lyme will plan to concieve,or not plan to concieve...and an inability to share information in a more openminded, rational fashion will be a detriment to gaining much needed insight into the safe way to have them.
This illness is insidious..I think it will become known to be more common than not..what do we do then..
Comon, guys..this info is needed. We have to pull together and help get information on this..women should be able to exchange questions and info on it without being left with what the abstract post leaves you with..
Which is even WITH the most experiences specialists OK and guidance, or treatment if needed..you then, after reading the majority of these posts..have to forge ahead and go through your pregnancy day after day with these awful doubts..it echoes in your mind..these emphasized points of adverse outcomes..
Which we all need to remain very aware of..
But the question came from a poster who has read all the abstracts, knows the illness, has consulted with the best of the best on how to do this safely..all the posts to the contrary are off point.
(except points on researching the safety of abx during..and considering the risk of the child having LD, money concerns, doctor availability..)
And a good point would be to confirm the children born under treatment remained well..but then,also, how would you know they weren't bitten? By a tick, a mosquito, or a teetsie fly or flea?
But..in a well researched patient..they would know what to look for, and likely seek swift treatment should the child show symptoms later..
Than God does come into it, and like Gret said, your own voice from within, your own level of peace after you are well informed.
With my baby girl,they did the level 2 ultrsound recomended when you turn 35, I had just turned 35..and if I had been 34 they wouldn't have done it.
Thay found these systs on her brain that in 99% of cases clear up..but then they proceeded to (because they had to since they saw them) tell me in deep detail that in the 1% chance that they did not, the baby would likely die in the womb or shortly after birth..
(this is all pre-Lyme..my baby got it breastfeeding and my son was infected as a child and then reinfected)
But with that information laid out for me,I had weeks of terror until I could get the next ultrasound that would tell if they were gone..and they were..
but the stress of being forced to dwell on this day after day was surely detrimental to me and the baby.
Some women, and the best LD Docs are certain that outcomes are excellent under the right conditions,and also with treatment if needed.
Can we have a thread here with that info? Or that may be impossible to do here, which will mean thase interested in protecting their babies will have to go underground, as they have been.
The question of "active infection"..we all know there is no sure way to tell if you have active infection..so some may want to be aspecially careful and treat safely and prophalactically..women need the info in skrwolf's origional question.
What about my son who is stricken so severely..should he never marry and try to concieve? What about all the kids who have been treated? Lack of willingness to learn and share safe assessment and/or treatment will wipe out the human race.
Maybe all pregnant mothers should be screened and evaluated and treated during pregnancy if there is any doubt..that is my take on it.
My almost two year old was infected via breastmilk after my bullsye and subsequent illness. She is still in treatment. Does this mean I must tell her one day she dshould not ever have babies of her own? Do I show her these abstracts only and tell her she just needs to know this? No.
I want to tell her all accurate information, and the reality of the situation, and right now we only have half the story.
Mo
PS: I love everybody on this thread, and all have valuable input!! Please understand my comments aren't directed at anyone, just the topic..
[This message has been edited by Mo (edited 14 August 2003).]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Very interesting topic. I think there are valid points on both issues. And if one is passionate and persistent enough they can find a truck load of articles/abstracts to back up their Opinion.
But the decision lays with the individual considering having a child. If you have a past or current Lyme infection ( or any disease or disorder for that matter)..it is up to you the individual to seek the information needed, to consult with a knowledgeable LLMD, and to make the best decision you can, based on the information you have.
Children are Gods greatest gift and I would have no problem seeking information and or treatment to help me have a child even though I have Lyme. I would research the info, and take all the precautions I was advised to take from my LLMD and my OBGYN.
There are so many children who are born with defects and diseases..despite the mother being completely healthy. My sister in law who was told she was in excellent health ended up giving birth to a 1 pound 3 ounce baby.
This child suffered greatly with heart surgeries, blood transfusions you name it. But at no time did her parents give up on her, as she was a fighter and wasn't giving up on herself.
Today she is a healthy 6 year old who thrives on life, and wants to become a doctor to help children who are born prematurely. And I know she will succeed as she's a fighter.
And even knowing the risks that they could have another premature baby were extremely high, my brother and sister in law decided to get pregnant again. They followed orders and had a healthy 8 lb baby.
Me, I probably would have been scarred to death to go through another premature birth. But it was their decision and I supported them. They did their homework and took precautions and all is well.
I guess I'm just saying that as a mother, we all face unthinkable risks when we conceive a child. We witness a miracle every time a child is born healthy!
Places like St.Jude are full of precious little babies who are suffering life threatening disease, most were born to healthy parents.
No one can predict the future. But most people I have spoken to who have a child with an illness,( i.e.. down syndrome, autism, or premature babies like my little niece, ) all but 1 mother said they were glad they couldn't see into the future as they might have decided to not have their child, and were all so thankful for the time God had given them with their precious children.
These people are remarkable. To have a child dying of cancer, and to be so damn thankful for every minuet they have with their precious child is what parenting is all about.
They are stronger than me!
I am not saying you should or shouldn't have a child if you have Lyme, I am simply saying do the research, seek the advice of a LLMD and OBGYN, and search your heart. Only you can make this decision.
I was blessed with 2 healthy children. My son Derek as many of you know was diagnosed 2 months ago at age 6 with Lyme Disease.
He has been going through a real hard time, and I cry just thinking of some of the things he has endured.
Knowing the risks of Lyme, as I have Lyme myself, should I have kept him under lock and key and not allowed him to play outside? No, that would have been ridiculous. but I did however take every precaution available to insure he wouldn't get Lyme, and fate bit me in the butt anyway and despite all my efforts my baby has Lyme.
So ya see, you can be the healthiest person in the world and have a perfectly healthy baby, and then a damn tick bites your child, and your whole world turns upside down.
There are no guarantees. Just follow your heart. I have a child with Lyme and I am truly blessed to have him in my life.
posted
The medical establishment says there is no risk to babies who are born of infected mothers getting "adequate" treatment. So, what is adequate treatment? We are never going to know the answer as long as the establishment is in denial about the potential damage Lyme can cause. The establishment has gotten nearly every thing else wrong about this disease. Why believe them on this? When the good Lyme doctors have enough evidence, maybe we will get a more accurate picture.
But, until then, potential adverse consequences cannot be ignored. I know of a case where several children in a family had congenital damage from Lyme, were unable to get adequate treatment, the mother still had Lyme without getting adequate treatment, and yet she was thinking about getting pregnant again. My personal opinion is that some people can be irresponsible in big decisions like this one.
I should probably not be adding my 2 cents worth on this because information that does not agree with one's personal preferences is being attacked. We are really still in the information gathering phase of this question.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I admire Tincup's courage to continue to speak up about such a controversial topic and I agree that knowledge is power. When making such an important decision having ALL the facts is key.
Sometimes we can't have what we want and sometimes God's answer is "no".
Linus
Posts: 127 | From East Greenwich, RI USA | Registered: May 2001
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
As all of you know, I am absolutely convinced lyme disease depletes magnesium and this spirals out of control.
This situation has significant implications in pregnancy.
The following research on the use of Zofran was done for my daughter, who is pregnant for the first time (our first grandchild!) and is nauseated. She does NOT have lyme, but has some other symptoms of Mg deficiency - asthma, TMJ, etc. Probably do to a stressful job (depleting magnesium).
Anyhow...this may be of interest:
The following research indicates magnesium depletion causes increased serotonin production which triggers the nausea and vomiting...
"Recent studies indicate that magnesium depletion, that is, having lower than normal levels of the mineral magnesium, can influence serotonin and nitric oxide release, blood vessel size, and inflammation. It's also thought that people with mitral valve prolapse have lower than normal levels of magnesium."
"Several studies have shown that magnesium depletion plays a critical role in blood vessel size. It seems not only to cause blood vessel constriction but to make blood vessels more sensitive to other chemicals that cause constriction and less sensitive to substances that cause blood vessels to dilate."
"Studies have also shown that MAGNESIUM DEPLETION seems to help RELEASE SEROTONIN from its storage sites. It also helps make blood vessels in the brain more receptive to serotonin and thus clears the way for serotonin to cause constriction of blood vessels.
Replacing magnesium has been shown to have a very positive effect on migraine symptoms in some people."
What does this drug do? Zofran is a selective blocking agent of the seretonin (misspelled - serotonin) 5-HT3 receptor. In plain speak seretonin (sp) is released by the small intestine when given chemotherapy (and possibly in reaction to other events). This triggers the vomiting reflex. If this mechanism can be blocked with drugs such as Zofran, vomiting can be reduced or eliminated.
Other tidbits: this drug has been hailed by many cancer patients as a miracle in keeping nausea in check. This comes at a price - the drug is expensive - several dollars per pill. Insurance often covers the cost and the manufacturer has a program for those who have financial hardship.
...and the recognition of the importance of serotonin and the value of selective type-3 serotonin(5-HT3) antagonists as antiemetics. Serotonin antagonists have quickly become a universal standard with widespread use and at times, are prescribed with apparent disregard for cost. This report will focus on the efficacy and toxicity of the 5-HT3 antagonists, their differences and similarities, comparisons with standard antiemetic regimens and each other, and the effectiveness of antiemetics in the prevention of delayed emesis.
Side Effects: Zofran may cause headache, constipation, stomach pain, weakness, or dry mouth although the incidence of side effects appears to be uncommon. It appears not to cause cancer in animals. Studies have shown it to not cause pregnancy problems in animals, hence it's pregnancy class B rating - you will want to discuss with your doctor the use of this drug if you are pregnant or breastfeeding (the drug is expressed in animal breast milk, humans have not been studied).
If you block the production of serotonin = lower pain threshold. Too much serotonin = nausea and vomiting.
It takes a SMALL amt. of B6 - sublingual - with EACH dose of magnesium (malate) to carry the Mg INTO the cells. The acid component (magnesium is a positive charged metal, what it is combined with is an acid = neg. charge) will knock out any disease causing bug/virus that has latched onto magnesium and your own immune will kick in to get it out of your system. Lure and kill. This takes time...3 months for a turn-around. Exercise and a Mediterranean type of diet do the same (neg. charges). Significant exercise! That's why those are so good for us. This is how/why folic acid (negative charge) protects your baby. It is recommended that women who want to become pregnant, start taking folic acid PRIOR to conception. This may prevent the pathogen from crossing the barrier. If Mg is available, it is capable of DNA REPAIR...this MAY be why, in the news recently, it is thought folic acid can help prevent Down's syndrome! (Remember, as we age, we also produce less growth hormone, have less Mg in our bones, and produce less COQ10 - a carrier of neg. charged electrons - these help kids to recover faster than adults.) AMAZING. It helps knock out any metal loving pathogen that has latched onto magnesium. Because: metals + acids -> hydrogen released. Get H into any cell and healing occurs.
To avoid the diarrhea situation with lots of Mg (orally)...try a daily bath (early - before taking supplements) with 2 cups of Epsom salts (Magnesium sulfate) in the water as one of the "doses". If you want, you can add 2 bottles of H2O2 (once your pores are open) to provide a stronger neg. charge and speed up the process.
If you do NOT start increasing your Mg "stores", this will lead to more leg cramps (when Mg is not avail. Calcium goes into the cells = histamine increases = more asthma episodes), it might lead to pre-eclampsia (high blood pressure - toxemia of preganancy - if seizures develop in recovery = IV magnesium given!), gestational diabetes which MAY or may NOT be reversible, post partum depression, polycystic ovary disease, etc.
I had a LOT of nausea and vomiting when I was pregnant with my first born. I took Bendectin (pulled off the market, but they are presently considering putting it back on 'cause NO PROBLEMS with it! Why it was pulled off is anybody's guess). It was an anti-histamine (so is magnesium!) and B6 combination! Looks like a LOT of moms-to-be need extra Mg and B6. Not surprised because:
Mg is stored in our bones, heart, brain and liver. The developing baby needs a lot of magnesium. A baby's bones contain a lot of magnesium (this makes them softer - protective mechanism - allows head to mold when going thru birth canal and less chance of "breakage" if you accidentally drop the baby). It is calcium that hardens the bones. Mother's milk contains a lot of magnesium, according to my research. This is what makes it so good! Remember, magnesium is an absolute essential ingredient in our immune system functioning (!), used in both energy production (ATP)systems, capable of DNA repair, and controls over 350 biochemical (enzyme) reactions in our bodies.
Mg in the doses - SPACED - that are needed (refer to Valletta's patent on "magnesium for autoimmune") is NOT possible along with abx. therapy. It makes most abx. worthless.
IMHO, the nutritional route is a much safer route as we do not further disrupt the balance of the vitamins and minerals and destroy the "friendly" bacteria that are soooo essential.
P.S. The lyme spirochete is not the only metalloprotease (disease causing bacteria that is attracted to metals- usually in the powerhouse - mitochondria - of the cells) that can latch onto and deplete magnesium. All the gram negative bacteria (the bad guys) are missing acids and it appears they are "sensitive to" acids. This has been proven.
[This message has been edited by Marnie (edited 15 August 2003).]
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Tincup, thank you for all your research, I for one, appreciate it. Just because research reinforces an opinion, doesn't mean it's not valid, Tes, and I think YOUR attack on Tincup is ill-founded, and not fair, as well as downright mean-spirited.
Of course Tincup is passionate about this, she doesn't want to see a child, and the MOTHER of a child suffer from a decision like this. As Cootie pointed out very eloquently, this is getting pregnant when you know you have a *disease*, and one that is known to be transmitted through the placenta.
And though there are few studies in TC's exhaustive research that actually talk about the transmission rate while on antibiotics, the fact remains that you can be on antibiotics and still be active for the disease, it doesn't stop the spirochete until exactly the right "brew" is found. And the court is still out on what that is, and it evidently differs from person to person who has this disease.
Shelly, the fact that TC has spent a lot of time researching this, because she feels passionately about this, as well as all aspects of lyme, is not a personal attack against you, but a fact-finding mission FOR you and any other woman considering this. I'm sure that if TC found a lot of countering arguments that said lyme was suppressed while on antibiotics, and one could carry a healthy baby to term, she would post those too. She is the messenger, so don't shoot her! Even if she has an opinion on this, I have never seen her not be fair and open-minded on these things. If you don't like the message, then change the spirochete, because it is the cause of the bad tidings, not TC. I'm sorry you don't like the message, but that's your decision in terms of how you react to it, and is not TC's fault. You asked for help on this, and you need to realize that even if the answers are not exactly what you wanted to hear, it doesn't change the FACTS, or that you need to hear them. So lighten up!
You posted three research papers that said babies weren't affected. I would be curious to see if these same researchers followed up on these children 4, 5, or more years later, as well as what tests they used to determine their diagnosis. You cited that one research paper said that these kids were not at increased risk for congenital heart defects. Well this is a red herring, because the effects of lyme are not congenital, they are active transmissions of an infectious disease. The report doesn't say if these kids have other problems.
Yes, there has not been enough research on the transmission of lyme while on antibiotics. That is one more reason, in my opinion, not to risk it. Just cuz Dr. J is supportive to your desire doesn't mean that he knows, either, no matter how good a LLMD he is, he doesn't know everything. And this is pretty uncharted territory. No one knows, fully, what the risks are. We need epidiomological assays on infected mice/rats/pick your lab animal (as much as I dislike testing on animals, I see no other way to do this) that are ON antibiotics with active lyme infections to see if the spirochete is passed on or not, before we start playing russian roulette with human children.
Mo said "it's about the babies". Yes, it is, and the health of those babies, who grow into children and then adults, should be the primary concern, as well as the health of the mother. Human beings have the ability to overcome the overwhelming biological urge to reproduce, if it's impractical, or risky. There is nothing wrong with that. We cannot possibly foresee all the latent dangers of recessive genes, or inexplicable problems that can arise in a fetus. But because we have minds, as well as reproductive organs, we, unlike animals, can make decisions based on rational understanding, not to reproduce if we know with a certain amount of certainty that we may pass on a dangerous, and hideous illness. The most responsible thing we can do is to get as many facts as are possible before we take that plunge.
I have two other concerns:
1. Antibiotics, even though we lymies have no other real alternatives, are dangerous. We all know that continually taking them can make us resistant to them over long extended periods of treatment. How much more is a fetus developing in the womb susceptible to this? So many people are upset about the antibiotics in cows milk, which arguably is possibly destroyed in our stomachs, how much more dangerous is taking anti-biotics while pregnant? Has your Dr. J. addressed this, Shelley? Would a child who was exposed to whatever antibiotic you were taking while pregnant have difficulties ever using those drugs should they develop Lyme 5 or 6 years later, or anything within that family of antibiotics?
2. If a whole bunch of women, based on Dr. J.'s rather questionable advice, decide to forge ahead with their biological imperative to reproduce despite the risks, this jeapordizes everyone's already tenuous insurance coverage for treating the disease. So you aren't just risking your own health, and your babies, you are risking everyone's health who has this disease, because the insurance companies will glom on to any excuse (and in this case that lyme patients judgment may be impaired) to not cover us or our children who have lyme. They already give us hell if we have a "pre-existing" condition, so if you got pregnant not even KNOWING you have lyme, they might still say your child had a pre-existing condition while in utero and may not cover future treatment. All the more so if you risk pregnancy while you know you have the disease. Have you thought about that, Shelly? I don't know if you have insurance, but if you do, they might not cover your child in the future if you go ahead and get pregnant now. They will use any excuse at all to not pay, I don't think anyone is so naive to not know that they are craven companies. And frankly, were I in their heartless shoes, I could see the point. And ya, this is selfish, but if you saw my medical bills, you would understand that I can't AFFORD not to be selfish when it comes to my treatment.
There is no reason you can't wait until at least a year clear of symptoms. I wouldn't even risk it then, because I was clear of symptoms for two years before it showed up again, but 6 months is really not enough time. You should get at least 7 or 8 negative tests preferably Western Blot and PCR, and be clear of symptoms before you get pregnant. At least, if I was your doctor, this is what I would advise, and I would caveat that it's still a risk.
In the meantime, cherish those treasures that you have right now!
I'm sorry that there are evidently two camps on this issue and that you aren't getting the support that you think you need, or desire. But you also need to understand that many of us are deeply concerned about the well being of children, to be blunt. And maybe you will hear something that will make you think twice about this, no matter how much this might upset you.
Wishing you nothing but the best,
------------------
Bright Blessings! Joy
Posts: 51 | From Santa Cruz | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Tincup, thank you for all your research, I for one, appreciate it. Just because research reinforces an opinion, doesn't mean it's not valid, Tes, and I think YOUR attack on Tincup is ill-founded, and not fair, as well as downright mean-spirited.
Of course Tincup is passionate about this, she doesn't want to see a child, and the MOTHER of a child suffer from a decision like this. As Cootie pointed out very eloquently, this is getting pregnant when you know you have a *disease*, and one that is known to be transmitted through the placenta.
And though there are few studies in TC's exhaustive research that actually talk about the transmission rate while on antibiotics, the fact remains that you can be on antibiotics and still be active for the disease, it doesn't stop the spirochete until exactly the right "brew" is found. And the court is still out on what that is, and it evidently differs from person to person who has this disease.
Shelly, the fact that TC has spent a lot of time researching this, because she feels passionately about this, as well as all aspects of lyme, is not a personal attack against you, but a fact-finding mission FOR you and any other woman considering this. I'm sure that if TC found a lot of countering arguments that said lyme was suppressed while on antibiotics, and one could carry a healthy baby to term, she would post those too. She is the messenger, so don't shoot her! Even if she has an opinion on this, I have never seen her not be fair and open-minded on these things. If you don't like the message, then change the spirochete, because it is the cause of the bad tidings, not TC. I'm sorry you don't like the message, but that's your decision in terms of how you react to it, and is not TC's fault. You asked for help on this, and you need to realize that even if the answers are not exactly what you wanted to hear, it doesn't change the FACTS, or that you need to hear them. So lighten up!
You posted three research papers that said babies weren't affected. I would be curious to see if these same researchers followed up on these children 4, 5, or more years later, as well as what tests they used to determine their diagnosis. You cited that one research paper said that these kids were not at increased risk for congenital heart defects. Well this is a red herring, because the effects of lyme are not congenital, they are active transmissions of an infectious disease. The report doesn't say if these kids have other problems.
Yes, there has not been enough research on the transmission of lyme while on antibiotics. That is one more reason, in my opinion, not to risk it. Just cuz Dr. J is supportive to your desire doesn't mean that he knows, either, no matter how good a LLMD he is, he doesn't know everything. And this is pretty uncharted territory. No one knows, fully, what the risks are. We need epidiomological assays on infected mice/rats/pick your lab animal (as much as I dislike testing on animals, I see no other way to do this) that are ON antibiotics with active lyme infections to see if the spirochete is passed on or not, before we start playing russian roulette with human children.
Mo said "it's about the babies". Yes, it is, and the health of those babies, who grow into children and then adults, should be the primary concern, as well as the health of the mother. Human beings have the ability to overcome the overwhelming biological urge to reproduce, if it's impractical, or risky. There is nothing wrong with that. We cannot possibly foresee all the latent dangers of recessive genes, or inexplicable problems that can arise in a fetus. But because we have minds, as well as reproductive organs, we, unlike animals, can make decisions based on rational understanding, not to reproduce if we know with a certain amount of certainty that we may pass on a dangerous, and hideous illness. The most responsible thing we can do is to get as many facts as are possible before we take that plunge.
I have two other concerns:
1. Antibiotics, even though we lymies have no other real alternatives, are dangerous. We all know that continually taking them can make us resistant to them over long extended periods of treatment. How much more is a fetus developing in the womb susceptible to this? So many people are upset about the antibiotics in cows milk, which arguably is possibly destroyed in our stomachs, how much more dangerous is taking anti-biotics while pregnant? Has your Dr. J. addressed this, Shelley? Would a child who was exposed to whatever antibiotic you were taking while pregnant have difficulties ever using those drugs should they develop Lyme 5 or 6 years later, or anything within that family of antibiotics?
2. If a whole bunch of women, based on Dr. J.'s rather questionable advice, decide to forge ahead with their biological imperative to reproduce despite the risks, this jeapordizes everyone's already tenuous insurance coverage for treating the disease. So you aren't just risking your own health, and your babies, you are risking everyone's health who has this disease, because the insurance companies will glom on to any excuse (and in this case that lyme patients judgment may be impaired) to not cover us or our children who have lyme. They already give us hell if we have a "pre-existing" condition, so if you got pregnant not even KNOWING you have lyme, they might still say your child had a pre-existing condition while in utero and may not cover future treatment. All the more so if you risk pregnancy while you know you have the disease. Have you thought about that, Shelly? I don't know if you have insurance, but if you do, they might not cover your child in the future if you go ahead and get pregnant now. They will use any excuse at all to not pay, I don't think anyone is so naive to not know that they are craven companies. And frankly, were I in their heartless shoes, I could see the point. And ya, this is selfish, but if you saw my medical bills, you would understand that I can't AFFORD not to be selfish when it comes to my treatment.
There is no reason you can't wait until at least a year clear of symptoms. I wouldn't even risk it then, because I was clear of symptoms for two years before it showed up again, but 6 months is really not enough time. You should get at least 7 or 8 negative tests preferably Western Blot and PCR, and be clear of symptoms before you get pregnant. At least, if I was your doctor, this is what I would advise, and I would caveat that it's still a risk.
In the meantime, cherish those treasures that you have right now!
I'm sorry that there are evidently two camps on this issue and that you aren't getting the support that you think you need, or desire. But you also need to understand that many of us are deeply concerned about the well being of children, to be blunt. And maybe you will hear something that will make you think twice about this, no matter how much this might upset you.
Wishing you nothing but the best,
------------------
Bright Blessings! Joy
Posts: 51 | From Santa Cruz | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I THINK JUST ABOUT EVERYONE IS RESPONDING TO THIS WITH FEELINGS, BELIEFS AND INFO TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITIES WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THEY HAVE AT THIS TIME..
But... Though that research was exhaustive, and everyone should be aware of it..
Thing is, that and most of the posts here did not address the question at hand..
And that question must be addressed for the good of mothers and babies..
That's what I meant by "it's for the babies"
Doc J ademantly stands behind no breastfeeding, but says pregnancies can be very healthy whaen the proper monitoring and protocol are used.
NO information is posted here on that..it's not available.
No, one man can't know everything..but he has treated over five thousand children, babies, pregnancies. He is the only Doc with the courage to treat this illness in them.
We need that info, and it is detrimental..not to post the adverse outcomes, but to hold them up and simply say..
No to pregnancy..period..that's it.
That view is very closed minded and very, very limited, and will contribute to the ongoing dangers in LD transmission in utero.
It happens, it can be bad..so WHAT do we do about it..
There are ways to treat it safely, whether some of you want to admit it, learn about it, examine it or not.
I DO feel that using the documented and shared adverse outcomes to uphold a "no way, No how" attitude..or to accuse women researching and learning safe treatments should just enjoy the children they've got and that's it..
To be so black and white..
get's us nowhere on this topic, is wrong, is ignorant in the sence that you don't know, and will serve no good, and even harm to those in situations where they need to protect a baby..or undergo this protocol as recommended by doctors.
Those avdverse outcomes could have been prevented with this protocol.
Filling women's minds with the echoes of this one-sided very limited, incomplete view and moralization is just wrong.
There is alot many of us don't know.
What if I accidentally (as is usually the case, isn't it? got pregnant tomorrow. Do I abort? That's what one is left with with these views. No. I wouldn't need to...there IS a way to safely treat.
Skrwolf and others are researching carefully. She came to the table and opened her heart saying "I am feeling well, I have researched the facts on pregnancy with Lyme, I have spoken to Doc B and Doc J and my husband and I are thinking of having a baby..can anyone tell me how they did on this protocol?"..as she was still searching...what she got was "How could you...look what could happen.." and lots on getting involved in a decision athat should be made by she and her husband alone.
She was in no way irrespnsible..if only ALL women would research this as extensively..
The facts on the risks are important in as much as requiring careful protection..that protection exists..and is not rocket science.
Yes..it's better not to be on abx, but weighing the risks against the benefits should be clear to everyone now.
We should make it our business to know how, and documentit..we may need it..some here need it..our daughters may need it.
It would be a shame to have to research and search foer these answers behind the scenes because of strong feelings, and only half facts.
There is noone here who can say this does not work when the protocol set forth by Doc J, Doc B, AND an OBGYN doesn't work safely.
Noone can say that with ANY credibility.
We need the info on how it DOES work.
Mo
[This message has been edited by Mo (edited 15 August 2003).]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lishs mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2344
posted
I wish to begin this with an apology to SKRwolf. I posted things that I am not pleased about in my post above which I have deleted.
I was very emotionally charged about this subject after watching my dear lishka deteriorate due to lack of treatment and the fact that I live in a state where we have lost many doctors who began treatment and could not continue.
This reality may become common in more states, or we may be able to reverse the present thinking and philosophy behind treating lyme.
It could go either way.
In the event it goes the way my state did, then I am very concerned that even good treating doctors, who begin therapy, may not have the ability to continue through out pregnancy and that has to be a consideration. Dr. Jones says that Lyme and pregnancy can mix, but special care must be taken. I trust him fully, I dont however trust the government to not shut down the aggressive lyme doctors, preventing the very "specialized" care needed for the full 9 months.
Possibly a year down the road will be different, but for now, no one knows...
I was charged with emotions of my daughters pain and suffering, and the effect it has on my older children. That is no reason to treat anyone with disrespect and for that I am truly sorry. I recaptured the importnant non-emotionally charged comments that I really wanted to say, that probably got overlooked due to the emotions.:
quote:Originally posted by Lishs mom:
Tincup has spent time researching for years and years.
She is one of the main people responsible for helping many, including myself, find proper diagnosis and proper medical care for the sick children.
She has been involved with helping with arranging free/cheap medical care for those who cant afford it. She has poured her life to helping people understand lyme.
She has a wealth of information.
Second, you asked for our opinions, and we can only give what we know. While it may not be positive, it is what we know.
Again, Im sorry for the personality attack in which I responded.
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Mo,
AMEN!!! AMEN!!!
Hey we actually agree on something
I agree with your entire post, and I am honestly saddened that a Skrwolf posted here looking for support and advice and instead she had her integrity, morals, religion and family values put into question by some of our fellow posters. We are a support group are we not?
Skrwolf, I offer you my support and prayers!!!
Mo said :
Doc J ademantly stands behind no breastfeeding, but says pregnancies can be very healthy when the proper monitoring and protocol are used
We need that info, and it is detrimental..not to post the adverse outcomes, but to hold them up and simply say.. No to pregnancy..period..that's it. That view is very closed minded and very, very limited, and will contribute to the ongoing dangers in LD transmission in utero
There are ways to treat it safely, whether some of you want to admit it, learn about it, examine it or not.
I DO feel that using the documented and shared adverse outcomes to uphold a "no way, No how" attitude..or to accuse women researching and learning safe treatments should just enjoy the children they've got and that's it.. To be so black and white.. get's us nowhere on this topic, is wrong, is ignorant in the sence that you don't know, and will serve no good, and even harm to those in situations where they need to protect a baby..or undergo this protocol as recommended by doctors.
Filling women's minds with the echoes of this one-sided very limited, incomplete view and moralization is just wrong.
Filling women's minds with the echoes of this one-sided very limited, incomplete view and moralization is just wrong.
Well said and worth repeating! Who are we to stand judgment on this woman who wants another baby and is willing to do the research and the treatment protocol needed to insure she has the safest pregnancy she can?
How many of us have said I trust Dr.J with my child's life? Yet you expect, no demand that Skrwolf turn a deaf ear to Dr. Jones when he advises her that with guidance he can offer her a safe pregnancy and a healthy child. So am I to understand Dr. Jones expert opinions are not valid for unborn children? Sorry I'm not buying that.
twoangie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1636
posted
One question...
Dr. Jones is past retirement age already. Who will you find to fill his shoes as a child with Lyme is growing and possibly experiencing problems?
It's not just about the "now" it's about the future. What if you have a child who IS born with physical or mental problems...you may have beautiful family days now but someday...even the parents will be gone. If the child, now adult, has difficulties is it fair to place the finanical and emotional burden of responsibility on other family members? Your other children who want to have their own careers and families?
Also, if this child is unable to work and you are gone where will it live? No matter how much you try to plan in advance for the future you can not control everything. Trust funds have even been set up for the disadvantaged and robbed. So, when you are gone....what happens to this once formerly adorable child who is now an adult? A home of it's own, group housing, an institution or even homelessness. You have no way of knowing.
Also, do we at this time really know the distant effects that use of long term antibiotics may have on an individual?
Certainly, it is wise to weigh out the risks of having a healthy baby but also, one must fully consider the long term concequences for that child not just in a "best case" scenario but also MANY "worst case" ones as well. If anyone does less than this then they still have a lot of homework to do.
It is only fair. After all, if you plan to bring another life into this world then it your duty to try to limit it's suffering. No child choses life, someone else choses it for them.
I have a friend who had a daughter born missing part of her heart. This beautiful, sweet child lived two years of pure torture in the name of love and medicine. I would never wish a life like that on my worst enemy.
It does not matter how much you love something, you can not take away pain through love.
Posts: 1993 | From Charlotte, NC, US | Registered: Sep 2001
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Those are good points..but I think that remains an issue for all of us and our children's childeren if something isn't done to change things in Lyme world.
I still see sharing info and experience, learning from someone such as the great Doc J is all the more imperative.
He and Doc B use a very safe effective protocol, the more we know about it..the more OBGYN's know about it..the more we know to push during the activism, push for the health of the CHILDREN..
I don't know. I see it as our duty.
Are we to just let this rotten state of the nation in Lyme continue like this by deciding it's no use? What about all the kids we've got now? They are more likely to be exposed than not. My daughter got it through nursing after I was infected. So, yea, bad things will happen. What matters is what we do about it and that we love them through their pain, when it occurs.
I live in a HIGHLY endemic area (I also know there is Lyme everywhere) but I'm in NY. With all the people I see, talk to..even friends who never brought it up till I did..I find out they had Lyme, had it four times, think they might have Lyme, not sure..
They had it but now they have Fibro..their kids have had it but got over it in two weeks..only they think they have ADD..
On, and on..
I don't understand the idea of just saying the future looks too grim, we have to think about the future risks in having children, too.
How is that applicable to a safely planned pregnancy? I see it as much directly related to the wellfare of all living and unborn children as well as ourselves.
Seems like a separate issue, but related, I guess.
Doc J doesn'thave much luck with the interns who study with him sticking with Lyme..they are too green and are looking for an area without contraversy.
I think the huge task of continuing on will be in protecting the Docs we've got, and having Doc J continue to work with other LLMD's and the few Docs who are brave and caring enough to learn..
A huge task!
But as far as pregnancy and the safe protocol with Lyme, I still think we absolutely need to know that for ourselves BECAUSE the Docs are in danger.
And we should certainly be supporting anyone who has researched like Skrwolf did and is sure she'dlike to move ahead.
Lyme is going to keep transmitting reguardless, a human fetus under the right protocol is probably the safest of all.
Mo
[This message has been edited by Mo (edited 16 August 2003).]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lishs mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2344
posted
quote:Originally posted by lymebrat: Mo,
AMEN!!! AMEN!!!
Hey we actually agree on something
I agree with your entire post, and I am honestly saddened that a Skrwolf posted here looking for support and advice and instead she had her integrity, morals, religion and family values put into question by some of our fellow posters. We are a support group are we not?
Skrwolf, I offer you my support and prayers!!!
Mo said :
[b] How many of us have said I trust Dr.J with my child's life? Yet you expect, no demand that Skrwolf turn a deaf ear to Dr. Jones when he advises her that with guidance he can offer her a safe pregnancy and a healthy child. So am I to understand Dr. Jones expert opinions are not valid for unborn children? Sorry I'm not buying that.
~LymeBrat
Lymebrat, I agree that if Dr. Jones says its safe, with precautions that he is the man. I would not doubt him. My concern is his age. My other concern is the turmoil going on right now regarding doctor priveliges. Our state can only get 3 weeks period... Exclamation.
Further Connecticut and Rhode Islanders are having problems getting doctors who feel comfortable treating long term... Add that to OB doctors who get their butt sued for anything anymore, and if Doc J is not able to treat through her whole pregnancy, does she have a back up. I just feel its something she really needs to have a plan, as I stated earlier.
I'd bet we'd agree on a few things..as long as we don't bring up you know what
As far as the 2001 article..I just looked more closely,it is flawed, but could be used as ties are to "Camp A"
I'm kinda fried with Ry so sick..very fried..but I feel strongly about all this. I know alot of us do..
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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twoangie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1636
posted
Mo,
I hear you loud and clear on the fact that so many have it and are transmitting it without knowledge. I think that is how my friend's daughter was born missing part of her heart and died at 2 years old waiting on a heart transplant. The mother didn't know anything about Lyme. However, I KNOW I have this disease and I do not EVER want to give it to anyone. I was in so much pain I wanted to die - came fairly close to formulating the whole plan so many times it's amazing I'm still here.
I suffered horribly and there is no way I'd want to take even a .00000000001% chance of bringing a child into this world. If I did so and my child was unlucky then I would be the CAUSE of that child's suffering. It doesn't matter to me that everyone one else is doing it. What matters to me is I will NOT do it!
I'm 36 years old and I have no children. Prior to lyme I was just taking my time and getting my career and finances in order. I wasn't in my 20's but I still had enough time to do things right AND have a child.
However, Lyme changed all that. I will NOT have children. I don't care how many drugs they make that are *supposed* to be safe...if a ciggarette or alcohol is dangerous and it is considered dangerous even if done only on a recreational basis...then how much worse could a drug taken every day prove to be in the future?
Certainly, taking antibiotics is safer all around for the developing child and the mother BUT a healthy mom who does not have lyme and does not have to take medications is the ideal. Those drugs may prevent some problems but they may cause others we have yet to even know about. Those antibiotics could even be the cause of some of the problems that are later attributed to Lyme.
We know so little at this point to safely make any well informed decisions. I won't do it now and I had dreamed of my own family. My great grandparents raised me and are long gone now. They were my family. If there is anyone on this board who would want to stand up and say that they SHOULD be able to have a child and a family then I would definitely qualify. I don't have this yet others already have families and yet aren't content with what they have...and want more.
I won't do it even if I have to be alone the rest of my life.
As the phrase goes "it's not a choice, it's a child!"
However, I know there are other options and if I ever get Lyme under control I will probably try to adopt. See, I think anyone who truly has all that love inside them to give to a child should not feel the child has to be of their blood to be lovable. I think it is all the more reason to care for a child if it does not have a home. Is it right to have so many homeless children when others feel the "need" to birth another baby into this world...while somewhere, a child is hungry, abused, homeless or unloved???
I challenge everyone here who "wants" to have another child to go to the site I have listed below. When you get there start with the number 77 and work your way backward. The youngest children are located at the highest numbers. Each number does not represent only one child. There are about 25 children for each page.
If the page only brings up 17 year olds then wait a while and go back. It was experiencing problems earlier but appears to be back up now. Starting on page 77 should bring up babies under 1 year old.
When you get there, I challenge all of you who desire a new family member to go through at least 10 pages and click on a minimum of 3 children on EACH of these pages to read their stories.
Some here say they've done all their research but I don't believe they have completed it. It's not complete until you look at the full picture and there are over 1,900 pictures just on this site.
In addition, it if it the costs of adoption that some would claim to be the reason they don't want to adopt...I don't think that is a good or accurate reason. It's not cheap to carry a baby and hospital bills can be expensive. In addition, with Lyme there is no telling what damage may occur not just to the baby but to the mother as well. Those are potentially very high priced fees.
Please, take a look at this site- just one of many like it. It's not right children are on "looking for a home" sites just like abandoned dogs and cats. However, if it is the only way to make people aware of them then I wish we had more such sites to open up the eyes of the public. www.photolisting.adoption.com/browse.php
Think harder about this before you decide to you *want* to have another child. There is a child out there that "wants" you. However, I know this option is not for everyone. You truly do have to have a very caring, generous and loving heart to be open to raising an adopted child.
Hmmm, I just thought of something. When people feel so strongly the child must be of their blood but they can bring home pets and love them so deeply they are like family...if someone could love a pet so much they didn't give birth too...why couldn't they love an adopted child that much too?
I know families that had their own children plus adopted children. Most people would probably have expected the adopted children to have accomplished the least but in the families I know it was actually the reverse, their adopted children were the most sucessful and caring of all the children.
So, what do I not understand here???
Posts: 1993 | From Charlotte, NC, US | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I married a lady that had a 6 month old child at the time we met. He never new his dad, I was the only dad he knew. We were together 3 years and had a child together, and then one day she tried to kill the oldest. I walked in and stopped it.
I realized that I had to remove both kids from the household. We were divorced and I fought for the right to be the guardian of my son. That is right I consider him my son. Even though I am not the biological father I am his father. I love him as much as I love my other son.
When you have the opportunity to take care of a child, that bond does grow regardless if you are the natural parent or not. I saved his life and he has saved mine with his presence in my life.
The whole ironic twist in this situation is that most likely it was Lyme rage that led her to the abuse, and I am now faced with two kids that most likely have Lyme as well. I really have no idea how we all got it. It could have been that she gave it to me, or we both had it or I gave it to her. Who knows, it really does not matter anymore.
Given my family history and the fact that my mom was bitten by a tick and she has all the same problems as me, I think that I have had this thing my whole life, now my brother is showing signs too as well as my stepdad. It is possible that this has been passed to two generations.
I am not even sure anymore of anything I read. It is all disturbing. I do have strong opinions, but I do understand that it is for everyone to make their own choice, but I do agree with Tin Cup on the medical issues and with Angie on the adoption angle.
It makes me sad that we all even have to deal with this. It would be good if we had a database to follow all of this, but I just dont think the statistics are there now to make an intelligent choice. I would just hope people think long and hard about what they are doing and what they really want before making such a tough decision.
Posts: 533 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Tincup, thank you for your response, although the sarcasm got a little repetitive and boring.
It is so odd to me that you only found those articles posted above when you were searching so exhaustively, and came up with 25 pages of info, all negative, mostly outdated, and nearly all were abstracts of case reports that had no relevance to Skrwolfs situation. Go figure!!
I found nearly all positive recent articles about pregnancy after being treated for lyme when I did a simple google search tonight. Interesting, don't you think?
One study even detailed more birth defects in the control group! And nearly all stated that pregnancy after lyme disease resulted in statistically normal outcomes. Surely you found those too, during your search. I can't figure out why you didn't post them here.
There is nothing good that can come of irrational exploitation of irrelevant abstracts, to try to bolster the idea that every child born to a lymie, will be dead or deformed, is just sick, sick, sick.
Skrwolf, and others seeking the truth on this forum, already have lyme disease. So why waste all that time confusing people by posting case reports on women who were infected DURING pregnancy? I don't think Skrwolf has syphilis either.
Did you know that there is a difference between being infected with lyme disease DURING a pregnancy, and being infected with lyme disease and being treated long before and/or during pregnancy?
It is a difference that makes all the difference. Not just when speaking about lyme, but ALL infectious diseases.
Point being driven home here . . .If you post articles about a pregnant woman contracting lyme DURING pregnancy, it has no relevance to those women here who have lyme diagnosed right now, and are considering getting pregnant, in fact it confuses the issue.
If you get almost ANY disease during pregnancy, you will risk fetal death or fetal abnormalities. If you contract herpes simplex I or II, EBV, HHV6, Fifth's Disease, Chicken Pox, toxoplasmosis, measles, chlamydia or other STDs, cancer, trichomoniasis, SARS, West Nile, malaria, or any of the literally thousands of Infectious Diseases DURING your pregnancy, the fetus is at high risk for complications and even death. In that regard, those of us with lyme already, may have babies safer and healthier than those women without lyme disease who may get their initial infection during pregnancy! We can plan, prepare, and be treated, followed by our doctors, and the babies and cord blood can be tested at birth.
Unfortunately we don't have control over contracting a disease during pregnancy, unless we want to construct a plastic bubble. (Anyone see the Jamie Kennedy episode of the boy in the plastic bubble going to the gym?)
OK, I digress . . .
I have not had chicken pox, so a pregnancy is complicated by the chance I could get it and the fetus would most definitely be harmed. I would have been BETTER off if I had chicken pox. The more I read, the more I am convinced that if you live in a lyme endemic area, you are better off having treated lyme disease prior to pregnancy (like skrwolf) than to take the chance of contracting lyme disease during pregnancy because as you so eloquently posted, and posted, and posted and posted and posted and posted above, the initial lyme infection during the first, second or third trimester, can be very dangerous for the fetus.
So what do you do when everything in life is so risky? (and sigh . . . none of us do get out of it alive . . . .) You just do what you can to reduce your risk in all areas while pregnant, be informed about ACCURATE facts and be followed closely by a physician knowledgeable in the area where you see there may be a risk.
Trying to sell the idea that any woman who would consider birthing a child post-lyme disease is immoral and the child would be deformed, is not true." Posting the scariest of all one sided limited abstracts, outdated, irrelevant to our situation on this forum, to try to "help" people who are considering getting pregnant seems very counterproductive, because it does not help, it misleads.
I'm not questioning your pure heart, I'm questioning this obsessive posting of inaccurate information, with the disclaimer of "I didn't write it!" when you did collect it, process it, and decide to post largely irrelevant and negative information.
Those who have claimed they appreciate the above articles so much, have already proclaimed their agreement with you, "Adopt!Don't have babies!"
I think everyone can agree that RELEVANT information, without moral commentary or personal attacks, would benefit everyone. Mo said she is starting a thread to that end.
The common denominator of all our posts should be to get skrwolf's original question answered. Not whether she is morally rightous in considering birth post lyme treatment, but rather, sharing information that is ACCURATE and that pertains to skrwolf and the rest of us.
So all those who seek answers from this and other threads . . . please don't confuse the issue. Be rational, and do your own homework. Remember the EXTREME difference between contracting lyme while you are pregnant, and having it before you get pregnant.
The ONLY issue relevant to skrwolf and to myself and to those seeking to get pregnant post lyme diagnosis, are studies of women who have lyme and who then get pregnant. Everyone knows it is not good to get an infectious disease DURING pregnancy.
Tincup, Your mission if you should choose to accept it . . .I challenge you to post the positive research on pregnancy post lyme treatment, on THIS thread, without adding your own negative commentary if you should accept this challenge. (e.g. We can't believe this article, because it is positive about pregnancy and therefore must be from the side of the enemy . . . .blah, blah, blah)
My 30 minutes of looking earlier on line, showed some very recent, very comprehensive studies stating that there is NO reason based in MEDICAL FACT to not get pregnant after having been treated for lyme. Counter to everything you have stated here and especially on Skrwolf's original post.
Yes, I actually would still like to sit and have coffee with you someday, your passion intrigues me, I think you must be a profoundly interesting person, and I know you are well loved on this forum by many. I just think your passion is very misdirected here, because it has no bearing on what the truth is.
And no, I don't suck up. I am straight forward and honest. It is a great way to live.
Lyme Disease and Pregnancy By Donald W. Hess, MD, MPH8/25/2000
Conclusions:
There have been isolated case reports of a variety of congenital malformations following maternal Lyme disease DURING pregnancy. Epidemiologic evidence thus far has not completely answered the question whether or not these associations are related to Lyme disease or to chance occurrence. Part of the problem is that it is difficult to retrospectively diagnose Lyme disease. This is because it is possible to have characteristic symptoms without an antibody response and vice versa. Another problem is that some investigators combine Lyme disease before or during pregnancy as an exposure category. Recognizing these limititions, there is no convincing evidence to suggest that maternal Lyme disease causes any clinically recognizable cardiac or neurologic adverse pregnancy outcomes.
Gerber MA, Zalneraitis EL. Childhood neurologic disorders and Lyme disease during pregnancy. Pediatr Neurol 1994 Jul;11(1):41-3. An observational study which surveyed responses from pediatric neurologists in several areas of the United States in which Lyme disease is endemic. There was a 92% response rate. One pediatric neurologist reported following 3 cases of congenital Lyme disease, but these cases did not meet the authors' case definition. None of the other pediatric neurologists reported having ever seen a child whose mother contracted Lyme disease during pregnancy.
Strobino BA, et al. Lyme disease and pregnancy outcome: a prospective study of two thousand prenatal patients. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1993;169(2):367-374. A prospective cohort study of pregnant patients in Westchester Co., NY. About 2000 women completed questionnaires had their sera tested for antibody to Borrelia burgorferi at their first prenatal visit and at delivery. Only one woman seroconverted during pregnancy. She had an untreated flu-like illness in her second trimester. The baby had no problems at birth or at on year follow-up. "The nature of the relationship between Lyme disease exposure and congenital malformations is not conclusive, primarily because of the small numbers involved". In other words, this study did not have sufficient statistical power.
Williams CL, et al. Maternal Lyme disease and congenital malformations: a cord blood serosurvey in endemic and control areas. Paediatric and Perinatal Epidemiology. 1995;9:320-330. A retrospective cohort study which compared the frequencies of major and minor congenital malformations among 2500 infants born in an area endemic for Lyme disease with the same number of infants born in a neighboring non-endemic area. A greater frequency of congenital heart disease was observed in the endemic cohort. Six infants in this cohort were born to mothers known to have contracted Lyme disease during the pregnancy. All were treated with antibiotics. Of these six, the only malformation reported was hypospadias. There were significant demographic differences between the cohorts. Mothers of the endemic cohort were older and more likely to be white. Neither of these characteristics are associated with congenital heart disease. This study's findings could be explained in a number of different ways. There may have been a difference in the physician's diagnostic practices. Other confounding factors, not related to Lyme disease, could explain the difference in the rate of congenital heart disease. It is very possible that the endemic cohort contained cases of undiagnosed Lyme disease. "The effects of maternal infection around the time of conception or during pregnancy are not known."
Strobino B, et al. Maternal Lyme disease and congenital heart disease: a case-control study in an endemic area. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1999;180:711-716. A follow-up to the study above which used patients form the same endemic geographical area. Cases and controls were 7 year old (or less) patients of a large pediatric cardiology service. There was a 39% maternal response rate of a questionnaire that obtained perinatal information. Maternal characteristics and exposures were comparable. Criteria for Lyme disease was either characteristic symptoms or diagnosis by a physician. For purposes of analysis, Lyme disease before or during pregnancy was considered a single exposure category. There was no association between Lyme disease before or during pregnancy and congenital heart disease.
Silver HM. Lyme disease during pregnancy. Infectious Disease Clinics of North America. 1997;1:93-97. A literature review which included the citations referenced above (excepting the 1999 study). Reference was made to a 1986 CDC study which reviewed outcomes of 19 pregnancies complicated by Lyme disease. Five had abnormal outcomes which included fetal death, cortical blindness, vesicular rash, preterm delivery, and syndactyly. A Swiss study reported VSD in the infant of a mother with untreated Lyme disease. "As the (Lyme) disease is uncommon, and anomalies less common, larger epidemiologic studies are required for a definitive resolution to the question of fetal risks with perinatal infection."
Conclusions:
There have been isolated case reports of a variety of congenital malformations following maternal Lyme disease during pregnancy. Epidemiologic evidence thus far has not completely answered the question whether or not these associations are related to Lyme disease or to chance occurrence. Part of the problem is that it is difficult to retrospectively diagnose Lyme disease. This is because it is possible to have characteristic symptoms without an antibody response and vice versa. Another problem is that some investigators combine Lyme disease before or during pregnancy as an exposure category. Recognizing these limititions, there is no convincing evidence to suggest that maternal Lyme disease causes any clinically recognizable cardiac or neurologic adverse pregnancy outcomes.
Posts: 169 | From Washington USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Please take note of the first line, where they discuss lyme disease contracted DURING pregnancy. As I noted above, this makes all the difference. Still, a very interesting assimilation of some of the negative abstracts that TinCup presented above although I didn't see this analysis above. -----------------------
Should I be concerned about Lyme disease if I am pregnant?
The simplest answer to this question is that a woman who contracts Lyme Disease during her pregnancy is at risk of transferring infection to her fetus. These women should receive antibiotic treatment as soon as possible; it might also be wise after childbirth to have the placenta examined histologically and for spirochetes. Antibiotics that may be used include amoxicillin or penicillin. Pregnant women in Lyme endemic areas should be particularly vigilant about avoiding areas with high tick exposure. Less clear is what to recommend to women who contracted Lyme disease prior to pregnancy and who have been treated adequately. Research suggests that these women appear to be at no increased risk of adverse fetal outcomes than women who did not have Lyme disease. That is good news, of course. This question needs to be studied more carefully with larger sample sizes. Research reports indicate the following: a. Transplacental transmission of Bb (the agent of Lyme Disease) has been documented in a woman who did not receive antibiotic therapy. The mother developed Lyme disease during the first trimester of pregnancy and her infant died of congenital heart disease during the first week of life. Histologic examination of autopsy material showed the Lyme disease spirochete in the spleen, kidneys, and bone marrow. b. Dr. Alan MacDonald in 1986 reported on 4 cases of aborted fetuses in which borrelia spirochetes were cultured from fetal liver. In one case, there was evidence of positive flourescence after a monoclonal mouse antibody specific for Bb was applied to the tissue. c. In 1986, Dr. Markowitz, Steere, Benach, Slade and Broome reported on 19 cases of Lyme disease during pregnancy in which 13 received antibiotic therapy. Adverse outcomes occurred in 5 of the 19 pregnancies, raising concern that Bb infection may have been a contributing factor. d. In 1989, Dr Olesk and others reported that of 143 pregnant women who had been serum tested for Lyme disease, only one of the 12 patients who miscarried had tested positive -- this was consistent with the conclusion that a positive serum Lyme test does not increase risk of miscarriage. e. In 1988, Dr. Williams, Benach and others reported reported on an umbilical cord serologic study of two cohorts of babies: one in a endemic area and one from a non-endemic area. Infants were followed up to 6 months of age. No association was found between congenital malformations and the presence of detectable antibody to Bb in cord blood. f. In 1993, Dr. Strobino, Williams, and others reported on a study of prenatal exposure to Lyme Disease in which seroconversion was assessed at the time of the first visit to delivery. Of 1290 women tested twice, only one seroconverted and this woman had a healthy child. This study suggested that neither the diagnosis of Lyme disease in the past or living in a highly endemic area are associated with fetal death, low birth weight, or congenital malformations.
Home ... to women who contracted Lyme disease prior to pregnancy and who ... to be at no increased risk of adverse fetal outcomes than women ... That is good news, of course. ... chaos.cpmc.columbia.edu/.../for_Pt/ displayanswer1-lyme.asp?Departments=LymeDisease&Controlnumber=347 - 8k -
Posts: 169 | From Washington USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I read every bit of this the night before last when Skrwolf posted it.
This is good information for anybody looking for information on whether or not it is safe to get pregnant, post lyme. ------------------------- "Gestational lyme disease" appears to be associated with a low risk of adverse pregnancy outcome, particularly with appropriate antibiotic therapy.
posted
This is quite interesting, the control group had a higher incidence of minor malformations, you'd expect all deformities to be higher in an endemic area hospital, if the relationship between lyme and fetus abnormalities was strong.
Now, this is very interesting, but still, read every abstract logically differentiating between exposure to lyme pre pregnancy, and during pregnancy, very different situation all together. ------------------------------
1: Paediatr Perinat Epidemiol. 1995 Jul;9(3):320-30. Related Articles, Links
Maternal Lyme disease and congenital malformations: a cord blood serosurvey in endemic and control areas.
Williams CL, Strobino B, Weinstein A, Spierling P, Medici F.
Child Health Center, American Health Foundation, Valhalla, New York 10595, USA.
This report describes a cohort study of over 5000 infants and their mothers who participated in a cord blood serosurvey designed to examine the relationship between maternal exposure to Lyme disease and adverse pregnancy outcome. Based on serology and reported clinical history, mothers of infants in an endemic hospital cohort are 5 to 20 times more likely to have been exposed to B. burgdorferi as compared with mothers of infants in a control hospital cohort. The incidence of total congenital malformations was not significantly different in the endemic cohort compared with the control cohort, but the rate of cardiac malformations was significantly higher in the endemic cohort [odds ratio (OR) 2.40; 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.25, 4.59] and the frequencies of certain minor malformations (haemangiomas, polydactyly, and hydrocele), were significantly increased in the control group. Demographic variations could only account for differences in the frequency of polydactyly. Within the endemic cohort, there were no differences in the rate of major or minor malformations or mean birthweight by category of possible maternal exposure to Lyme disease or cord blood serology. The disparity between observations at the population and individual levels requires further investigation. The absence of association at the individual level in the endemic area could be because of the small number of women who were actually exposed either in terms of serology or clinical history. The reason for the findings at the population level is not known but could be because of artifact or population differences.
PMID: 7479280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
[This message has been edited by TesMes (edited 17 August 2003).]
Posts: 169 | From Washington USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
The number of documented cases of adverse outcome in pregnancy is too low to correlate Lyme disease with birth defects or fetal abnormalities.
Some think it is never worth the risk. Some will think there is a low risk. Some will just make their private decision in consultation with their doctor.
Good luck everybody! Time for bed, and have to leave some of the good ones for others to hunt for.
Peace everyone, take care! --------------------------
"...recent prospective data have been reassuring" (1).
"A causal relationship between borrelial infection and fetal adverse effects has not been proven, and for at least some such cases a reasonable explanation (not associated with Lyme borreliosis) was found" (2).
"There was no relationship between the presence of placental spirochetes and the results of Lyme serology or the pregnancy outcome" (3).
"One pediatric neurologist was following 3 children...labeled as having 'congenital Lyme disease,' but none of the 3 met our case definition. None of the other pediatric neurologists surveyed had ever seen a child whose mother had been diagnosed as having Lyme disease during pregnancy. We conclude that congenital neuroborreliosis is either not occurring or is occurring at an extremely low rate in areas endemic for Lyme disease"(4).
"Maternal exposure...before conception or during pregnancy is not associated with fetal death, prematurity, or congenital malformations taken as a whole. We have insufficient numbers of women who were seropositive...to determine if this subgroup of exposed women are at a moderately increased risk of having a child with a congenital abnormality" (5).
"Transplacental transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi was not proved" (6).
"Although there have been three documented cases of such transmission it appears to be rare, and there is no established association with congenital anomalies" (7).
"Anomalous findings could not be attributed to B. burgdorferi.... Our data do not imply the need for serological screening in pregnancy..." (8).
"Whether any or all of these associations are coincidentally or causally related remains to be clarified by further investigation" (9).
"Two cases of transplacental transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi have been associated with fetal death and cardiac malformation. Different anomalies were found in each case; therefore, a cause and effect relationship cannot be determined..." (10).
"Transplacental transmission of B. burgdorferi has been documented in a pregnant woman with Lyme disease who did not receive antimicrobial therapy" (11). "Of the 19 pregnancies evaluated...none resulted in a child with a congenital heart defect. However, other adverse outcomes were found, including intrauterine fetal demise in the second trimester, prematurity, and developmental delay with cortical blindness. None of the adverse outcomes have been documented to be caused by Lyme disease. Outcomes of 14 of the [19] pregnancies were completely normal" (11).
"There was no association between congenital heart defect and maternal tick bite or maternal Lyme disease within 3 months of conception or during pregnancy.... A woman who has been bitten by a tick or is treated for Lyme disease during or before pregnancy is not at increased risk for giving birth to a child with a congenital heart defect." (12)
"Borrelia infections during pregnancy were considered dangerous, since initial reports indicated that infectious complications in the fetus may result. More recent studies have refuted these fears." (13)
Silver, HM. Infect Dis Clin North Am. 1997;11(1):93-7. Maraspin V, et al. Clin Infect Dis 1996;22:788-93. Figueroa, R et al. Gynecol Obstet Invest, 1996;41:240-3. Gerber, MA. Pediatr Neurol, 1994;11:41-3. Strobino, BA. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1993;169(2 Pt 1):367-74. Hercogova, J. Cesk Gynekol, 1993;58:229-232. "How to diagnose and treat Lyme disease in children," Available On-line. Nadal D. Eur J Pediatr, 1989;148:426-7. MacDonald, AB. Southampton Hospital, NY. Rheum Dis Clin North Am, 1989;15:657-77. MacDonald AB, et al. NY St J Med. Nov. 1987;615-6. CDC. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports (MMWR). June 28, 1985, 34(25);376-8, 383-4. Strobino B, Abid S, Gewitz M. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1999 Mar;180(3 Pt 1):711-6. Schaumann R, Fingerle V, Buchholz K, Spencker FB, Rodloff AC. Clin. Inf. Dis. 1999;29:955-956 .
Posts: 169 | From Washington USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Thanks for this information, I have had no time to search.
Those differences are very relevant.
It does call for considering treatment when one lives in a highly endemic area. I was bitten unknowingly while I was nursing. It could have easily happened when I was pregnant, if the timing was right. As it turns out, she would have been much safer if protected in the womb with a safe abx protocol..there is no effective protection while nursing,
And even many LLMD's will tell you it won't transmit that way.
The studies simply haven't been done.
Awareness needs to be raised on the whole issue.
Ugh..
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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twoangie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1636
posted
hwlatin,
Thank you for hearing what I was saying!!!
I think you are pretty awesome to have taken in the other child. Many people would have taken their "own" child and gotten a divorce leaving the other child behind since it was not theirs they would not have accepted the added responsibility. It is wonderful to know you went the extra mile. You should be proud of yourself!
As for everyone else reading here who seemed to miss my point...I am simply disappointed. Did no one pull up that site? Over 1,900 children who are homeless without a family yet everyone continues to bicker about having one of their "own."
I do not get it now nor will I ever.
In addition, I 1,000,000,000% appreciate all the information Tincup has posted. Finding the "other" information is MUCH harder than finding the rosy picture. Remember, Lyme is "easy" to cure if you go to the right places so why would most of these people even accept a mother to be chronic much less capable of harming her child by transmitting the disease? It goes against the picture they are trying to paint.
I made MY decision LONG before any of these posts started. I made it 2 years ago when I first became ill.
I watched my friend's daughter suffer through so many surgeries. They took her to do heart surgery on her almost immediately after birth. Her chest was cracked open for almost 2 weeks because they started to lose her every time they tried to close her up. They had her on Morphine and she clawed her face until it bled.
They finally closed her up but had to put a trach in. The nurses were busy and her head rolled over, covering the trach and closing it off. She couldn't breath and coded.
My friend could never leave the hospital and learned very quickly that she had to be on guard ALL the time. If she even left to go to the bathroom and the nurses turned their back the child would move and stop breathing. She returned many times to find Courtney was already blue.
About 6 or 7 times that child went 5 minutes or more without oxygen and had to be resuscitated.
Because she had been through so many surgeries and had been on a feeding tube for so long she didn't learn how to eat. She had a feeding tube in, I believe, until she was almost 2 years old.
You would think a child on a feeding tube would not have anything to vomit. Not true, she would vomit up to 50 times a day. She choked on it and almost died several times as well. They finally had to perform a special type of surgery to prevent her from ever vomiting again. She still went through the motions of everything but having something come out. It looked so incredibly uncomfortable you had no doubt she was just as miserable if not more so.
Toward the end she had seemed to be doing very good. She had made it off the feeding tube and had learned to eat. She had been taught some sign language which helped her learn how to speak. She was very intelligent and knew everyone's name including mine. Such a sweet child.
Then, she started getting sick again. She had meningitis which led to brain inflammation. They couldn't get the swelling to go down and put a shunt in her head. However, her hands and feet were ice cold and turning black. Her heart wasn't working properly and she had very little circulation. This is when she was finally put on the list for a heart transplant.
We were standing over her bed talking and a nurse came in to discuss the situation. Right in front of the child she started talking about another baby that had been on a transplant list and had died because it just missed getting a heart in time. I know the Courtney could not understand but I also thought it was incredibly insensitive of the nurse to be so flippant about what had happened to the other child in front of this family.
I felt really funny and I excused myself to leave. I was dizzy and could not pull anyone into focus. I actually do not know how I got out of the hospital without passing out other than I was NOT going to let my friend know how upsetting I had found the nurse's discussion to be.
It was shortly afterward that I went back to visit Courtney and I arrived to find she had just passed away during yet another surgery.
There were two children on the list for heart transplants at that time. The day after Courtney passed away the other child received a heart.
I was very sad to lose her but ultimately, happy for her. I had never watched anyone, human or animal, suffer so much. You can't help but wish them true peace when you've seen them suffer so horribly.
It's rather ironic that they asked me afterward to consider being a surrogate mother and carrying a child for them because out of everyone they knew I had the cleanest history and best health. They thought that maybe the next child would have a better chance of being healthy. I even considered it but my boyfriend at the time didn't want me to do it so I didn't.
Now, I won't consider even having my own - at all. See, I always led a pretty healthy lifestyle so that one day if I did have children they would be healthy. To me, that means not just during pregancy but also all those years prior. You are born with all the eggs you will ever have. Every bad thing you put in your body can affect those eggs long before they are ever used.
If I was cured of Lyme today I would not have children. Even if someone told me I would not need a single drug during pregnancy I would not do it.
I have been on so many medications that there is no doubt in my mind I have very likely caused some form of damage to those eggs. No matter how high or low the risk, it is a risk to me that I'm not willing to take because I'm not the one at risk, the child is. The risk isn't just for a rough childhood but possibly a lifetime of pain and struggle.
My own needs are not so that great that I will even consider imposing such risk upon another.
Did anyone even bother to look at the site I posted? There are some beautiful children there.
I continue to have problems understanding why the child must be blood to be considered a new family member...
Angie
Posts: 1993 | From Charlotte, NC, US | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Thank you Angie for the kind words, but it is my son that is awesome. He is the one that had to face the abuse and recover from it. He is an awesome person and student. So is my other son.
Posts: 533 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Here we go again...
"Tincup, thank you for your response, although the sarcasm got a little repetitive and boring."
Your welcome. Oops...
Well what am I suppose to say to such a comment?
"It is so odd to me that you only found those articles posted above when you were searching so exhaustively, and came up with 25 pages of info, all negative, mostly outdated, and nearly all were abstracts of case reports that had no relevance to Skrwolfs situation. Go figure!!"
Odd? Hmmmm..
First.. not at all an exhaustive search.. but thanks for your concern for my energy levels.
You may want to reread the posts? All posts weren't negative. There were positive outcomes. Please do read the reports and you will see...
The reports you refer to as "outdated" may be outdated. I purposely posted them so folks could see this topic has been researched since the beginning of Lyme.. so it is NOT a new topic at all without a good amount of research having been done. Doctors and researchers have been studying it for years. And they are still.. from the begining till now.. coming up with similar conclusions. That was done to show a pattern.
As far as being related to anyones personal circumstances... I never intended it to be. I posted these references on my own post.. separate from any others and without reference to anyones situation.. and explained in advance they were mostly the negative side of what could happen.. and warned those who couldn't handle it not to read further.
Anyone trying to tie this to other circumstances would not be giving the topic justice and would be trying to fit 25 lb potato sack on a 100 lb head of cabbage.
"I found nearly all positive recent articles about pregnancy after being treated for lyme when I did a simple google search tonight. Interesting, don't you think?"
Not at all. I know you are intelligent and can look things up on your own. And as they say... Seek and ye shall find. It is fairly simple... if I am looking for an apple in an orange orchard.. it would be difficult. If I look for an orange... BINGO!
"One study even detailed more birth defects in the control group! And nearly all stated that pregnancy after lyme disease resulted in statistically normal outcomes. Surely you found those too, during your search. I can't figure out why you didn't post them here."
Again.. I stated from the get go that most of the reports I posted here were on the negative side of what could happen.
I also didn't report here on the size of a basket ball. The post wasn't about that. It was about some of the negative things that could occur.
"There is nothing good that can come of irrational exploitation of irrelevant abstracts, to try to bolster the idea that every child born to a lymie, will be dead or deformed, is just sick, sick, sick."
I am horrified to think anyone would think this is the truth. Oh no... Not at all! I don't know how anyone could even think that. I sure hope that opinion is not shared with anyone here.
As far as irrelevant abstracts... I posted what I said I was posting... not what you maybe expected? So I stayed on topic.
"Skrwolf, and others seeking the truth on this forum, already have lyme disease."
Actually... Some may have Lyme.. some may be fathers with Lyme, or without.. some may have adult children wanting children.. some may be researchers, reporters, or school teachers or students looking for information... blah blah blah.
"So why waste all that time confusing people by posting case reports on women who were infected DURING pregnancy?"
This post does not revolve around one person here... or two. Trying to make it all about a couple of people is what gets folks in trouble. This information was provided for any of the 3,500 members who may care to use it.. or those simply reading at this site who want information.
"I don't think Skrwolf has syphilis either."
Good to hear that. If you didn't understand the references between syphilis and Lyme.. well.. let me explain.
Syphilis is a disease caused by a spirochete. It can affect a person in nearly the same way as the spirochete that causes Lyme disease. There have been exhaustive studies on Syphilis for years.. and some researchers indicate the studies can apply for both diseases. Since Syphilis is well documented.. it stands to reason folks can get a better picture of the Lyme spirochete by studying the history of Syphilis.
"Did you know that there is a difference between being infected with lyme disease DURING a pregnancy, and being infected with lyme disease and being treated long before and/or during pregnancy? It is a difference that makes all the difference. Not just when speaking about lyme, but ALL infectious diseases."
Thank you for sharing that information. Can you post any medical reports stating that fact?
"Point being driven home here . . .If you post articles about a pregnant woman contracting lyme DURING pregnancy, it has no relevance to those women here who have lyme diagnosed right now, and are considering getting pregnant, in fact it confuses the issue."
No confusion when you are posting a GENERAL post for MANY people. Again.. I think perhaps you may be trying to make this information fit ONE person or incidence. It won't... it was never designed to.
If one person is looking at the information at this site.. and the shoe doesn't fit.. don't wear it. And don't try to stick your foot in it when it obviously doesn't fit... or wiggle it around to make it fit... and when it doesn't.. then say it is wrong.
"If you get almost ANY disease during pregnancy, you will risk fetal death or fetal abnormalities. If you contract herpes simplex I or II, EBV, HHV6, Fifth's Disease, Chicken Pox, toxoplasmosis, measles, chlamydia or other STDs, cancer, trichomoniasis, SARS, West Nile, malaria, or any of the literally thousands of Infectious Diseases DURING your pregnancy, the fetus is at high risk for complications and even death. In that regard, those of us with lyme already, may have babies safer and healthier than those women without lyme disease who may get their initial infection during pregnancy!"
I haven't seen studies that state that a woman with Lyme may have healthier babies than those who don't have Lyme and who then get it during pregnancy. If you have any reliable medical information to that affect.. please let us know.
"We can plan, prepare, and be treated, followed by our doctors, and the babies and cord blood can be tested at birth."
Again.. if there are any documents stating this.. please do share. I am familiar with testing the cord for infections.. but there is normally a follow up involving the babies for several years from what I remember. And do be aware.. all tests are not created equal.. and may miss the infection. Then.. if you listen to the ducks.. there could be many false positives that are written off... which later can cause problems.
"Unfortunately we don't have control over contracting a disease during pregnancy, unless we want to construct a plastic bubble. (Anyone see the Jamie Kennedy episode of the boy in the plastic bubble going to the gym?) OK, I digress"
Sorry I missed that movie.
"I have not had chicken pox, so a pregnancy is complicated by the chance I could get it and the fetus would most definitely be harmed. I would have been BETTER off if I had chicken pox. The more I read, the more I am convinced that if you live in a lyme endemic area, you are better off having treated lyme disease prior to pregnancy (like skrwolf) than to take the chance of contracting lyme disease during pregnancy"
I would love to see the studies or reports stating that.
"because as you so eloquently posted, and posted, and posted and posted and posted and posted above.. "
Yes.. I DO tend to go on and on. Part of my charm I guess?
"the initial lyme infection during the first, second or third trimester, can be very dangerous for the fetus."
Ok.
"So what do you do when everything in life is so risky? (and sigh . . . none of us do get out of it alive . . . .) You just do what you can to reduce your risk in all areas while pregnant, be informed about ACCURATE facts and be followed closely by a physician knowledgeable in the area where you see there may be a risk."
EXACTLY! Reduce risk.. be informed... and be followed by a physician. Perfect idea.
"Trying to sell the idea that any woman who would consider birthing a child post-lyme disease is immoral and the child would be deformed, is not true."
Right again. I do hope no one ever said that... or anyone pushes that concept. It is not a proven medical fact.
"Posting the scariest of all one sided limited abstracts, outdated, irrelevant to our situation on this forum, to try to "help" people who are considering getting pregnant seems very counterproductive, because it does not help, it misleads."
It is scary to many of us... because it has happened. No one wants it to happen to them or their child... or to others.
Sometimes it takes scaring folks to make them listen. Then again.. some folks never get it.
If someone drank a case of beer... and then went out and drove their car 50 miles to get home... that would be risky, eh?
They know the statistics show bad things can happen in this situation. Would anyone want to be responsible for harming or killing another person because they ignored the risks?
The same holds true in many aspects of life. Most folks would want to harm another.. or themselves... if it could be prevented. I simply want folks to have information that would allow them to fully KNOW the risks before taking their life and the life of an innocent child in their hands.
"I'm not questioning your pure heart, I'm questioning this obsessive posting of inaccurate information, with the disclaimer of "I didn't write it!" when you did collect it, process it, and decide to post largely irrelevant and negative information."
Sorry ... I do this all the time on all sorts of topics here.. from prevention of tick bites to tissue autopsies after death. Others also post on a variety of topics and share medical information to help others. That is how we learn and then come to our own conclusions. If that is considered obsessive.. then I am guilty.
I find information.. and I post it. Truth is.. I really didn't write it... HONEST! If you feel the researchers and doctors who wrote this information are, as you stated, "inaccurate" and their information is "negative"... please tell them! I can't fix the information to make it what one person wants to hear... sorry.
"Those who have claimed they appreciate the above articles so much, have already proclaimed their agreement with you, "Adopt! Don't have babies!"
Yes.. many folks do consider the fact that there are many children already alive who need loving homes. There are many options other than giving birth, Lyme or not.. and many children who need someone to care.
I (we) didn't say if you want a baby and have Lyme that you should go buy a pizza instead. I (we) gave a suggestion that if you want children and don't want to risk passing Lyme to the child.. adoption is an option. Others agreed and they seem to see the logic in this suggestion with no problems. They are thinking of the welfare of the children (all of them, born or unborn).. not just of themselves and their current desires to bring another child into this world.
Some people even advocate adopting pets rather than letting more be born. There are numerous animals who are put down each year because they can't find a loving home. This is NOT a new concept... or something off the wall.
"I think everyone can agree that RELEVANT information, without moral commentary or personal attacks, would benefit everyone. Mo said she is starting a thread to that end."
That's nice.
"The common denominator of all our posts should be to get skrwolf's original question answered."
Unfortunately when anything is posted even close to referring to the "original question".. all of a sudden some folks seem to know all the answers and go kicking everyone around if it isn't what they want to hear. Yes.. they already researched this.. talked to this person and that person.. asked the doctors.. etc.
I am NOT.. I repeat... NOT posting this information to any ONE person. I post for everyone.. take it or leave it.
"Not whether she is morally rightous in considering birth post lyme treatment, but rather, sharing information that is ACCURATE and that pertains to skrwolf and the rest of us."
I never heard the word "moral" until folks who didn't like the information I posted starting shouting it. I am sharing information... if it isn't accurate, talk to the ones who wrote it... and again... I am NOT posting to any one person.
"So all those who seek answers from this and other threads . . . please don't confuse the issue. Be rational, and do your own homework."
Yes.. please be informed.
"Remember the EXTREME difference between contracting lyme while you are pregnant, and having it before you get pregnant."
???? Extreme?
Maybe remember there are risks either way until enough decent information is posted to the contrary?
"The ONLY issue relevant to skrwolf and to myself and to those seeking to get pregnant post lyme diagnosis, are studies of women who have lyme and who then get pregnant. Everyone knows it is not good to get an infectious disease DURING pregnancy."
I hope you find what you are looking for in the medical pages. Till then... there are numerous reports of situations that can at least pose some of the risks.
"Tincup, Your mission if you should choose to accept it . . .I challenge you to post the positive research on pregnancy post lyme treatment, on THIS thread, without adding your own negative commentary if you should accept this challenge. (e.g. We can't believe this article, because it is positive about pregnancy and therefore must be from the side of the enemy . . . .blah, blah, blah)"
First.. I never said not to believe ANY of the information posted by myself or others. I cautioned others to KNOW the sources. Like when you buy a car. KNOW the seller... check it out. Don't be Lyme blind.
The Bumsteere group got many of us in this position.. so if the info comes from the Bumsteere camp for example... consider the source no matter if they say positive or negative stuff.
Next.. I will have to decline the challenge. I have put enough effort into what I have done at this point and will leave it to those who want to know more to do their own research. I can only do so much... and you can please some of the people some of the time.. but not everybody all of the time.
If this were something that I had a personal question about.. I would certainly research it for myself.
If someone has a genuine concern.. and isn't bashing the posts or me in the process... and has a specific question and I can help.. I will try. I will not continue to spend time on those who ask questions like what I see here.. and then claim to have all the answers already.. or accuse me of not providing all of the information THEY want to see... especially if it isn't out there.
Please feel free to Yahoo any further information you may need directly. If you DO find positive information.. and care to share it.. I am sure someone will appreciate your efforts.
"My 30 minutes of looking earlier on line, showed some very recent, very comprehensive studies stating that there is NO reason based in MEDICAL FACT to not get pregnant after having been treated for lyme. Counter to everything you have stated here and especially on Skrwolf's original post."
Then thank goodness you have your answers.. end of story. Please... don't keep asking me for more and more and more if you have all the answers already! There are others here who actually need answers to other topics.
"Yes, I actually would still like to sit and have coffee with you someday, your passion intrigues me, I think you must be a profoundly interesting person, and I know you are well loved on this forum by many."
Sorry, I really don't care for coffee.
"I just think your passion is very misdirected here, because it has no bearing on what the truth is."
Thanks for your opinion.
"And no, I don't suck up. I am straight forward and honest. It is a great way to live."
twoangie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1636
posted
Tincup,
I appreciate all your hard work and will be saving the information you have posted because I feel it is very valuable. Thank you!
Also, I'm sorry to say it but I think you have been dogged all around this issue by people who claimed to want to broaden their knowledge but obviously only wanted to see the shiny side of the coin. I've seen several things where people wasted space in these forums on pregnancy and just copied your comments repeatedly instead of replying or replying to specific comments such as you do.
I don't understand when someone just pulls the entire post up and resubmits it. I've already read it so please stop doing it. Pick what you want to reply to and please stop bogging down the board. I go through those things looking to see if there is something new in there but it's just bolded, copied information - which I've already read. It just reinforces my OWN beliefs.
For all of you who think we are mindlessly following Tincup it almost doubles me over with laughter! I met Tincup last year and I do like her, she's a sweetheart. However, I don't follow ANYONE mindlessly. I make my own decisions otherwise I would have been dead 2 years ago.
In this particular situation I think it is folly to play with fate in the name of an unborn child esp when there are so many ALREADY here needing homes!
Tincup did not bring me to that conclusion. Lyme brought me to that conclusion when it entered my life 2 years ago and made me know what it really means to be in so much pain and so miserable you want to die.
Certainly, some of these woman with lyme who want to be mothers have experienced this misery? If not, then I guess I can see how they would tend so much more heavily toward the idea of happier outcomes. I just don't see how anyone who suffered severely would ever wish to even take the slightest chance of causing another, esp an innocent baby, to experience such pain and suffering.
I said this before and I will say it again - women are born with all the eggs (oocytes) they will ever have. Everything you take in affects these eggs. Even if I was cured of Lyme I have very little doubt that having taken heavy medications has caused some form of damage to my eggs. It would be irresponsible of me to think otherwise. Maybe the child would not be born missing a body part or showing any detectable damage but there could be imbalances which would begin to show up over time.
One of the problems here is also that people are focusing on such a narrow time frame. From baby to a few years. There is very little research on long term effects on these children who will some day become adults.
I applaud Tincup for doing her research. As I said before, the rosy picture is EASY to find. Remember, due to Allen Steere and his crew the public picture of lyme is VERY positive. We are all here because we discovered that was not so. Why would it be painted any differently for lyme pregnancies? You have to dig deeper to find that and I think Tincup showed a LOT of responsibility in doing that work since others were intentionally turning their heads or covering their eyes and pretending that if they did not see the car wreck then it didn't happen - but it did. Some walked away with minor injuries while others were killed.
Also, NO one here pushing so hard to have a baby has even bothered to pull up the site I advised them to go to. None of you have commented on the children there. Why is this? You all say you want to do your research, you want the full picture. I said there were over 1,900 pictures on that site alone to help you flesh out the full picture.
It appears none of you have even bothered to look and I do not understand it.
I REALLY want to know what is so horrible about the idea of adopting a child? Many of you keep skirting past the question by saying others keep suggesting it...like it is a bad thing...yet, it is very obvious when you do skirt by this, turning your head from the car wreck that is currently a child's life, you are intentionally evading and avoiding the question. Do you realize that under the right set of bad events even your own children could end up on pages like this looking for a home???
So, back to my questions...WHY are none of you looking at these children??? WHAT is so bad about adopting???
If people claim to have such big hearts and so much love to GIVE then what do I not understand here? WHAT piece of the puzzle am I missing?
I would appreciate some answers here and I would also appreciate it if no one would make my remarks double post alone because that is just wasting space. At least Tincup takes each remark she sees important and replies to it directly - which is completely logical. Reposting someone's entire comments and then just writing a reply under it or nothing just gets in everyone's way trying to follow a thread. If you direct your reply to a specific person it is very easy to go back and review what they wrote without it being reposted. Actually, possibly easier since the bolded post are harder on the eyes.
Again, still seeking answers to the "what's wrong with adoption" question.
Thanks,
Angie
Posts: 1993 | From Charlotte, NC, US | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I do not do alot of posting here, mostly just read the threads, research the material and make my own decisions. It seems to me that it has become more of a debate than a forum for support and answers. I draw my conclusions not only from this thread but from several others.
That is the main reason I left chat rooms. My mind is too weak and my head hurts too badly when trying to keep up with opposing arguments that at times have been downright sarcastic and mean spirited.
I think if I were to put myself in Shelly's shoes I would have had the same reaction. She didn't come here to find out how many people were against the idea of pregnancy. It was evident to me if she had already consulted with Dr J and also has a LLMD that she has assessed the risk to the child. What she did ask for was experiences from women who had lyme and were being TREATED and thinking of becoming pregnant.
I think some of the post were very judgemental. I have genital herpes and have had since I was 19. Long before I even thought of having kids. Did it worry me when I thought about becoming pregnant? Sure it did. But I did my homework and had some great docs. Do any of my children have herpes? No.
I understand the risk factors are different for this disease than herpes, but does that make me selfish because I took the chance and had children? No.
I have read many posts from people who are guilt ridden because they unknowingly transmitted lyme disease to their children. I, for one, feel no guilt. It is a waste of energy. I refuse to beat myself up over something I had no control over. Yes, my heart breaks that my kids may have lyme but I'll put my energy into caring for them and educating myself on this disease.
Angie, as far as adoption goes, not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to do that. If I were, I would be surrounded by foster kids right now, in addition to my four. It doesn't have anything to do with not being able to love someone because they aren't of your blood. It has to do in my case with a stupid mistake by my husband in is youth that he will pay for forever. So maybe you need to lobby the government to place limitations on how long one felony conviction (which had nothing to do with kids, sex or firearms) can be held against a person.
Also, there is no guarentee in adoption either. You don't know the child's genetic background. No you wouldn't be the one passing a disease to a child but you would be responsible for it. Seems to me Shelly would be taking her chances either way.
And what should I tell my daughter if in fact she does have lyme disease? She is only 14 and hopefully it will be several years before she does. I do know this, I won't tell her how selfish she is if she does want a child. I will help educate her to the risks and support her decision without ridicule or sarcasm. That's what freinds and support persons are for. There are many ways to speak the truth with love.
Posts: 204 | From kentucky | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I just have to put in my two cents worth on this topic. I contracted lyme in 1987 while pregnant with my first daughter but didn't get diagnosed until I was pregnant with my third daughter in 1996. When my oldest daghter turned 12 she started showing signs of lyme. I had her tested and she came back positive. After that I had my second daughter tested and she also turned up positive. My LLMD said that in a lot of cases that children born with lyme don't start having problems until they start to reach puberty. So I would have to say from my own personal experience, that "yes" it is very possible to transmit lyme in utero.
Posts: 14 | From CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Tesmes
Thank you for posting those articles!...very interesting.
Mo
Yes, other than politics I think you and I seem to have alot in common
Two Angie
You asked what is so horrible about adopting a baby...nothing who implied there was? Just as there is nothing horrible about a woman wanting to give birth to her child, one she conceived, carried to term, and bore.
Having my children was the best thing I have ever done in my life. I loved being pregnant and will never forget the first time I saw my baby in an ultrasound or heard their heartbeat on the monitor.
I still cry thinking about the day my children were born, it was simply a miracle..truly amazing. (not to mention the fun I had conceiving )
That said, how could I ever tell a woman who is taking all precautions, is seeking the best doctors in the field and doing the treatment protocol required to insure the safest pregnancy possible...that she shouldn't risk having a baby as there is a slim (1%) chance she could pass Lyme onto her child. I can't, because if I did I would be a hypocrite.
Honestly I think the healthy woman who is pregnant and gets bit by a tick and gets lyme during her pregnancy is at a far greater risk than a woman who has been treated for Lyme prior to becoming pregnant and receives treatment throughout her pregnancy.
So, are we to say any woman who becomes pregnant should avoid going outside during her 40 weeks of pregnancy as the risk of her getting bit by a tick is just to great? No that would be ridiculous. As I think it is ridiculous to tell a woman who has Lyme that she shouldn't conceive a child even if she is taking all precautions....it is a decision for her, her husband and her doctors..not us.
Getting back to adoptions. I have nothing against adoptions and may adopt in the future. I would however like to say that it isn't like you can just say I want a baby, so I'll adopt. It is a long, complicated, emotional and costly process.
Many simply can't afford adoptions. My brother just finalized the adoption of his baby son last week. It cost him $50.000 not including all the medical fees he had to pay for the all the prenatal visits and delivery of the baby, or the lawer fees.
It took him 3 years to finally be "chosen" to have the opportunity to adopt.
He went through 2 failed adoptions where his heart was broken when the adoptions fell through. And now we found out his baby tested positive on his PKU testing.
Not everyone has the $50,000.00- $70,000.00 to adopt a child. Yes it cost money to give birth to your own child but your insurance company will generally pay for most if not all of the cost.
And there is absolutely NO guarantee that the child you are adopting was born to a mother who didn't have Lyme or any other disease or genetic irregularities. Nor is there any guarantee that the child you adopt won't get bitten by a tick and contract lyme as a child. ( My son was bitten last fall and diagnosed this past May..so there are no guarantees in life..none!)
Twobusy mom You said:
And what should I tell my daughter if in fact she does have lyme disease? She is only 14 and hopefully it will be several years before she does. I do know this, I won't tell her how selfish she is if she does want a child. I will help educate her to the risks and support her decision without ridicule or sarcasm. That's what friends and support persons are for. There are many ways to speak the truth with love.
I agree!!!!!! I was fortunate in that I didn't get Lyme until 2 years after my youngest was born. But if my daughter were to get lyme, I would defiantly be there every step of the way to help her research and seek the best doctors to help her have the safest pregnancy possible.
I think it is for our children and their children that we all need to help get this aspect of Lyme researched more extensively.
You said : I think if I were to put myself in Shelly's shoes I would have had the same reaction. She didn't come here to find out how many people were against the idea of pregnancy. It was evident to me if she had already consulted with Dr J and also has a LLMD that she has assessed the risk to the child. What she did ask for was experiences from women who had lyme and were being TREATED and thinking of becoming pregnant.
I think some of the post were very judgemental.
I couldn't agree with you more!!!!
All I am saying is that Skrwolf came here asking for help..advice..not to be slammed. Perhaps instead of saying she is selfish, wrong, immoral, or should just ignore her desire to give birth to another child ......we could just give her some support...
No one said we all have to agree with every post. But I like to follow my mothers advice which is " If you don't have anything nice to say, then shut the hell up" ( Okay Mo, I know I didn't always follow that rule over in "off topic", but I think it's okay to skip this rule when politics are being discussed )
skrwolf You have my support and I am keeping you in my prayers!!!!
posted
To all of you who have stepped up and lended me support, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Wow... This has taken on a life of it's own.
Twoangie, just to let you know, I have felt that there will be a point in my life that I will adopt. But as Lymebrat pointed out, it is costly and very time consuming. That doesn't mean that I won't ever consider it, but there is a time and a place.
My quest for information is on. It will be an interesting one, as I will have to search hard and deep, but my thirst for learning will hopefully help not only me but anyone else who might have interest in the topic.
Anyway, THANK YOU to those people that have voiced their opinions on my behalf.
Shelly
[This message has been edited by skrwolf (edited 19 August 2003).]
Beverly
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Posts: 6639 | From Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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lla2
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[This message has been edited by lla2 (edited 23 October 2004).]
Posts: 4713 | From saunderstown, ri Usa | Registered: Apr 2002
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lla2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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beverly why would you bring this one back to the top again when it was one that seemed to hurt so many people's feelings?
it seems like there are many other articles about pregnacy that weren't so argumentative and harsh towards each other, or was this one in particular asked for?
Lisa
Posts: 4713 | From saunderstown, ri Usa | Registered: Apr 2002
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