This is topic Red Pin Point (Petechiae): BABS or Bartonella? in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.


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Posted by RECIPEGIRL (Member # 5884) on :
 
Hi,
My LLMD said my red pin point dots (petechiae) on the skin are due to Babesia.

My amateur research kind of points to Bartonella though?

Any experts out there on the matter? Would really like to hear your stories.
Thanks.
Jan
 

Posted by KrisKraft (Member # 4329) on :
 
I had the pinpoint rash, on and off, for 1.5 years, and was recently diagnosed with Babesia. It would mostly show up around my knees and elbows.

The other big clue that I had Babesia was the drenching night sweats that showed up after the first time I took an antiprotozal drug, Tequin.
 

Posted by crmc (Member # 4207) on :
 
Hi, was going to respond to this in my other post, but see you've started a new one...

I also have these little red dots. They come and go. But seems like I'm getting more and more of them all the time.

Something else that showed up around about the same time I was diagnosed with Babesia, and was wondering if anyone else had this... small blisters on my eyelids. Is this also common to Babesia?
 

Posted by Rita on :
 
My red dots show up the day after I eat a high fat meal. I've thought it was liver involvement.
 
Posted by salatheel (Member # 5786) on :
 
Are you talkking about ones that start out red but end up looking like freckles?
 
Posted by Mathias (Member # 5298) on :
 
Yes, the little dots that look like little red freckles.
 
Posted by salatheel (Member # 5786) on :
 
I started getting those 5 years ago when my dog died from Babseosis and Lyme. I had a blood test at that time to check for Lyme that came back negative. After being bitten this March saving the tick and showing the Dr. he said I had Lyme. I had the bullseye and all. I have never been checked for co-infections.
 
Posted by lla2 (Member # 2364) on :
 
I've been told by two well respected llmds that the dot freckle looking red spots are from babs, adn the long line petichea that look like what a 'hicky' looks like when you suck on your arm..but in a single line...is bartonella....

hope that makes sense...


dark red spots= babs
long petechia looking like dots from sucking on arms= bartonalla

bart can also cause stretch mark looking striations ..usually on hips or legs..

Lisa
 

Posted by solsearcher (Member # 4482) on :
 
Lisa,

You just opened my eyes with your last comment about the stretch mark. I have such a mark on my left pelvis. I have no idea how it got there.

Could you refer me to an article which correlates these kinds of stretch marks to Bartonella?

Thanks,
Scott
 

Posted by salatheel (Member # 5786) on :
 
thanks for the info
 
Posted by lla2 (Member # 2364) on :
 
i don't have an article...just the wise words of two of the best llmds who've noticed the connections over the years...Dr. H in ny and Dr. jones the pediatrician.....

Lisa
 

Posted by RECIPEGIRL (Member # 5884) on :
 
Hi Scott,

Here's a site with pictures of stretch
marks. They're kind of purplish to silver in color.
www.8ung.at/gueney/scars1.jpg www.8ung.at/gueney/scars2.jpg

This was posted on Lymenet by Fred June 28, 2004.

Topic: Is this Bartonella? (pictures inside!)

Search this out & you can pop right on the site.

The entire post is interesting.
Take Care,
Jan
 

Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
 
Can also be vitamin C deficiency
 
Posted by mjbucuk (Member # 843) on :
 
if I understand correctly what Dr Jones explained to me.. the 'stretch' marks from Bartonella are kind of bluish... and raised.
 
Posted by KJ (Member # 960) on :
 
I was told my red dots were due to babs....he also said he mainly sees them on the upper arms and chest and back regions....my skin is also dry there, even though I exfoliate and moisturize like crazy!

Sad, I just thought I had zits left over from puberty.....=)

KJ
 

Posted by salatheel (Member # 5786) on :
 
thats where mine are too. mostly arms and chest.
 
Posted by Mathias (Member # 5298) on :
 
All of my red dots are on my arms, chest neck and back. Sounds like it could be babs then.
 
Posted by HaplyCarlessdave (Member # 413) on :
 
I didn't know what they were, but I had some of those. I did have babesia, so that babs was the cause is possible. And they did go away, eventually.
DaveS

 
Posted by mvilas (Member # 3854) on :
 
hmmm..this is interesting. I had a petechial rash ALL over my body, but mostly on hands and feet, several years back along with a strange illness (headache,fever,stiff neck, stiff joints). Went to the ER and was told that petechial rash is classic for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever but said it was very rare. They did titers and it came back positive...I believe this is the same time I was infected with Lyme. To me the rash looks like bleeding under the skin or if you get pinched or sucked on

Michelle
 

Posted by mjbucuk (Member # 843) on :
 
so Michelle, were you checked for Babesia?
 
Posted by crmc (Member # 4207) on :
 
I have these too, from Babesia I'm guessing. But I think it can be caused by alot of other things too.

When my youngest daughter was about four days old she came down with a very high fever and the bottoms of her feet and palms of her hands broke out with these same kind of red spots. Freaked us out! Pediatrician ran blood tests and said everything was okay. The spots went away in a few days.

So, never figured out if it was a virus or what.
 

Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
 
Ehrlichiosis can cause petechiae.

(Mentioned in many searches using the words, Petechiae and ehrlichiosis.)

"Rash is an UNcommon symptom in babesiosis.1,2,3,7" (from the Am. Academy of Family Physicians)
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20010515/1969.html

"Symptoms of Babesiosis begin gradually with anorexia and fatigue followed by fever, sweats and muscle aches. Most patients do not recall tick bite and symptoms begin about one week after exposure. Severity ranges from a mild self-limited illness to serious disease with anemia, kidney failure and decreased blood pressure. Rash is NOT a feature of the illness."
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/health/ticks2.htm

"Corkscrew hairs" in hyperkeratotic follicles are pathognomonic of scurvy, or vitamin C deficiency. Petechiae and subungual hemorrhage may also be seen."
http://health.allrefer.com/health/scurvy-pictures-images.html

(Photo of what this looks like at above link.)

"Vitamin C deficiency

Symptoms of mild vitamin C deficiency include easy bruising, formation of petechiae (small, pinpoint hemorrhages in skin), and decreased immunocompetence.

***Vitamin C is needed in periods of stress. In severe stress or trauma there is a rapid drop in serum vitamin C levels and redistribute to adrenals and the area of the wound."***
http://www.uhealthy.com/english/topics/vitamin.htm

(An infection is a time of stress for your body.)


"Deficiency of vitamin C results in abnormal skin findings (dermatitis) and hemorrhages (petechiae). Advanced vitamin C deficiency causes scurvy."
http://www.gastromd.com/diets/vitamins.html

"Pregnancy, lactation, and thyrotoxicosis increase vitamin C requirements; ***acute and chronic inflammatory diseases***, surgery, and burns can significantly increase requirements.

In adults, scurvy remains latent for 3 to 6 mo after the reduction of vitamin C in the diet to < 10 mg/day. Overt scorbutic symptoms are preceded by lassitude, weakness, irritability, weight loss, and vague myalgias and arthralgias. Multiple splinter hemorrhages may form a crescent near the distal ends of the nail and are more extensive than those in bacterial endocarditis.

The gums become swollen, purple, spongy, and friable; they bleed readily in extreme deficiency.

Secondary infection, gangrene, and loosening of teeth eventually occur. Such changes affect only the gum around natural teeth or with hidden roots. Old scars break down, new wounds do not heal, and spontaneous hemorrhages may occur in any part of the body, especially as perifollicular PETECHIAE and ecchymoses in the skin of the lower limbs."
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section1/chapter3/3q.jsp

Easy enough to see if supplementing this vitamin (C) would help...give it time.


 

Posted by graneet (Member # 3112) on :
 
Mine are tiny blood blisters they are filled with blood.

I asked my doc about this she said some of this comes with age.

I have them on my upper torso and top part of my legs. Most are tiny size of tip of pencil. One or two are bigger maybe three times that size. Now i do have babesia untreated and have noticed more of them as of late.
These stay red. They are not like a hicky type look. Nor are they like the pick of Vitamine c problems.

Graneet
 

Posted by RECIPEGIRL (Member # 5884) on :
 
Hey Guys,

Ya'll are a wealth of knowledge.

Thanks for your interesting information. I really got a thorough education here.

Oh, Marnie, my eyes popped out when I saw "Erlichiosis." Wow ----- I was way off track & feel like my topic statement was misleading. I should have put: Red Pin Point (Petechiae): Co-Infection or Other Causes.

I also looked at those Vit. C deficiency pictures-----very disturbing.

Hope folks will read the entire thread & see that there are multiple causes for petechiae.

Thanks all.
Janet

 

Posted by mvilas (Member # 3854) on :
 
mjbucuk-

My LLMD, who has been treating Lyme for 18 years, has stated that co-infections are not all that common....now I know others on here would probably argue with that, but he really didn't see any reason to test me. However, I said let's go ahead and test using labcorp, see what the results are and then if need be test through reputable lab. I actually see him tomorrow and he should have my results by then.

Michelle

 

Posted by mjbucuk (Member # 843) on :
 
While I do not know the facts for Ohio, here is an article that Marnie posted on 7/6 under 'heads up Jersey'


J Clin Microbiol. 2004 Jun;42(6):2799-801. Related Articles, Links


Prevalence of Borrelia burgdorferi, Bartonella spp., Babesia microti, and Anaplasma phagocytophila in Ixodes scapularis ticks collected in Northern New Jersey.

Adelson ME, Rao RV, Tilton RC, Cabets K, Eskow E, Fein L, Occi JL, Mordechai E.

Medical Diagnostic Laboratories L.L.C., 133 Gaither Dr., Suite C, Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054, USA.

PCR analysis of Ixodes scapularis ticks collected in New Jersey identified infections with Borrelia burgdorferi (33.6%), Babesia microti (8.4%), Anaplasma phagocytophila (1.9%), and Bartonella spp. (34.5%). The I. scapularis tick is a potential pathogen vector that can cause coinfection and contribute to the variety of clinical responses noted in some tick-borne disease patients.

PMID: 15184475

One of my sons has lyme and the other has lyme & babesia; both boys got sick in north Jersey... or perhaps Northeast PA. A friend of mine in NW jersey has Lyme & Bartonella.
 

Posted by mjbucuk (Member # 843) on :
 
sorry, duplicate post

[This message has been edited by mjbucuk (edited 19 July 2004).]
 

Posted by mjbucuk (Member # 843) on :
 
sorry another duplicate post... AOL was not cooperating

[This message has been edited by mjbucuk (edited 19 July 2004).]
 

Posted by mvilas (Member # 3854) on :
 
hmmmm...it does seem like a lot of people are infected with co-infections & that's why I mentioned testing to my LLMD in the first place. I'm concerned about it, it's just hard to argue with the 'expert' that I am seeing. He'll test me if I want to be tested, but I don't think he'd treat me for a co-infection w/o seeing a positive result. I don't think I have any symptoms currently that would point to a co-infection, but I don't know. I'll have my first results today (I hope) and we'll see where to go from there.

Michelle
 

Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
 
C- You mentioned a rash on the palms of the hands and soles of the feet... and fever for your little little one.

That is pretty classic for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.

Untreated it can become chronic.

Keep in mind Erick is related to RMSF... so testing for both of these infections may be advised?

Just thought I would mention that.

Hope the little one is better now.


 

Posted by graneet (Member # 3112) on :
 
UGH i cant remember the name of the one from marysville ohio whos doc wont do babesia.

If he wont treat i wonder if you have the same one i had i did both good docs neither treated the babs im now going to doc c in mo. And he is treating. There is others who have gone and not got treated for babs from the same doc.

There good docs im not into doc bashing. I just needed someone who would test for other things not just give me thirty days abx each month with no intent to look for other things wrong.

Come to find out i was right there are a number of other things wrong.
Graneet
 

Posted by mvilas (Member # 3854) on :
 
Just got back from LLMD. Tests from Labcorp came back negative, which is no surprise there. Tests ran were Bartonella, Babesia, HGE-IGM & IGG. I did ask him again if he saw anything suspicious of co-infections and he said no not unless I were waking up drenched from night sweats.....so....my main symptoms are twitching, floaters, headaches, muscle pain, minor joint pain, parathesia and hair loss that has reversed itself with treatment. Everything has lessened since being on treatment though. I guess I will pursue better testing if I'm not cured, but there's not much I could do for treatment right now anyways since I'm pregnant. Guess it's just a waiting game (for me at least).

Michelle
 

Posted by graneet (Member # 3112) on :
 
Yeah well at least the doc tested you.

As for sweats i havent had those either but it was showed suspcious on my bowen test. I have had six years of abx and no i mean no improvement.

So went hunting for other things. I cannot belive how complex this stuff is and the treatment adds other things to the mix to. Like leaky gut or allergys.

All this from a tiny little rotton bug.
Oh by the way im from ohio to

Graneet
 

Posted by mvilas (Member # 3854) on :
 
Well, if I showed no improvement, I'd be pursuing other things as well. I have improved to an extent. My hair stopped falling out and the cluster headaches are gone...stiffness and joint pain aren't as bad as before, twitching has decreased. I've only been on treatment for about 7-8 months because I went off it at the beginning of my pregnancy. Figure I'll give it at least a full year before I start digging deeper.

Yes, this horrible disease(s) from a small bug I never even saw on me. Pretty amazing how many people have Lyme here in OH and hmmm...it doesn't even exist here...imagine that!

Michelle
 

Posted by RECIPEGIRL (Member # 5884) on :
 
WELCOME To LYMENET
(Following list was originally provided by Treepatrol)
Here are more goodies for newcomers.
Get an LLMD. Borrelia Burgdorferi is a clinical diagnosis, based on symptoms and on your response to treatment.
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000464.html

LymeNet Links for new members http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009342.html http://www.lymediseaseaudio.com/

Dr. Joseph J. Burrascano's Guidelines http://www.ilads.org/burrascano_1102.htm http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/diagnosis.htm http://www.lymeinfo.net/LDSymptoms.pdf

Rose's 15 Facts for Newcomers http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/011977.html

Making the most of your LLMD visit. http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/020605.html

Camp A and Camp B http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/021395.html
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Drug interactions etc. http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Home http://www.amwa-doc.org/publications/wchb/FILE039.html http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/familyhealth/dict/pages/h/22.html

Newbie's Lingo http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002828.html
Rashes http://www.lyme.org/gallery/rashes.html
Labs http://www.mdlab.com/ http://www.igenex.com/
Co-infections Thanx M http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/021366.html
Herxing http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000638.html http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/014359.html http://www.jemsekclinic.com/lyme4.php#sect11

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Good Site http://www.canlyme.com/
FDA http://www.fda.gov/medbull/summer99/Lyme.html
CDC http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/diagnosis.htm
Legal http://www.josephromanolaw.com/english/book.html

You don't always see a bite, and if there's no bullseye the only way you're going to be able to tell is (symptoms) and WB or lyme dot blot 3 day urine banged with abx's to free your antigens up for the test.

See this ( . )thats the size of the larva stage tick...
Next nymph size... ( * )
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Help with meds. http://www.freemedicineprogram.com/


 

Posted by lla2 (Member # 2364) on :
 
Michelle,

I feel badly... most people who have lyme also have coinfections. the most well known llmds have fact/research to back this up. And coinfections do not show up on tests. a fact. Alot of the symoptoms you mentioned, including headaches, muscle aches etc can be associated with coinfections...i've never once tested positive for coifectiosn but had both babesia and bartonella dn didn't get better until I was treated for both, and in fact had seizures after a while even while on abx from the bart. My son was born with learning disabilities adn lyme etc..as well as many other problems. If you do not wish to believe this that is your choice. Everyone has a choice. I'm just very sorry that you could not be treated prior to your becoming pregnant ...coinfections will continue to make you very sick....and make the lyme worse.

. We're here to help ...that's all and send people in the correct direction. Whether or not they heed our advice is their own choice....

I wish you the very best ...and congrats on your baby...I hope things work out the way you want them tooo..

Lisa

[This message has been edited by lla2 (edited 25 July 2004).]
 

Posted by mvilas (Member # 3854) on :
 
Lisa,

I am currently seeing a LLMD who has been recommended by several people on this board and who has been treating/researching Lyme for 18 plus years. I'm just not sure...if I can't trust my LLMD, then who can I trust?

I have no doubt that many people have co-infections, but every symptom I have is listed on the symptom checklist for LYME. I'm very frustrated because I have a LLMD telling me that I do not have any reason to believe that I have a co-infection. He flat out said to me at my last visit that I didn't have co-infections, I just have Lyme. Do I push him & show doubt in him based on something someone has told me from here, someone who is not a LLMD or have a medical degree, or do I put my faith in him? I hope I don't sound mean or snippy, but I'm just so frustrated and confused at this point. At this point I don't know what to think. When I first came here I was told to get a LLMD, now I'm basically being told to question my LLMD and not trust his judgement?? He came very highly recommended. Believe me, I question EVERY other doctor I see regarding anything & everything, but I'm trying to trust the one with the 'LLMD' label on him.

I have so much on my plate right now. I'm due in several weeks. I have my 4 year old scheduled to see someone for Lyme testing & I'm just dealing with a lot including worrying about the health of my son in utero. I am not getting any sicker, in fact I feel much better now that I'm back on treatment. Nothing has gotten worse, only when I went off treatment did I get worse. I don't know if you got the impression that I'm doubting people have co-infections, but I don't doubt that for one minute, I'm just trusting the judgement of my LLMD where I'm concerned. In his well educated opinion I have nothing that would point towards a co-infection. Yes, we all have choices. If I were getting sicker, I'd be digging deeper, but at this point I'm feeling pretty good and hope to keep improving. I hope what I said makes sense...... I'm also sorry that your son was born with Lyme. Is he doing better now?

Michelle


 



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