i don't know of any PCR test on the market at the moment.

the problem is that they don't know what the incidence of this virus is in the general population. meaning we don't know how many perfectly healthy people test positive for exposure to this virus.

there is a DR at the Columbia Mailman School of Public Health - Dr Ian Lipkin - who has this virus as one of his primary research focuses, and he recently did a huge study of people with major phyciatirc disorders (ie schizoprenia, etc) to see how many of them show signs of active infection with this Borna Virus.

i would love to see some results on this study. also, there is a CFS DR in NYC - Dr Sue Levine - who did a very informal study of her patients with this very DR from Columbia and found that there was a higher incidence of this virus in PWCs than controls....but there hasn't been any follow up done on this...

if you want Dr Levine's info, let me know. she is very nice and might have some ideas for you to try....i know she uses IVIG and things like that on her CFS patients.

quote:

---

Originally posted by docdave130:
the answer is simple.
take a anti-viral med and see what happens.

the key factor may be coversion of bb to a viral form.

---

docdave,

Oh how I wish the answer was SIMPLE as you said -- nothing about treating Lyme is simple in my opinion. Amantadine is an antiviral and so is Ribavirin -- so far neither is working.

I don't know who or what to believe anymore -- when my husband first got sick he was tested for numerous viruses and none were found. The longer he is sick (over 3 1/2 years now) the more tests come back positive for new and different viruses and bacteria.

A verrrrry scary thought -- does anyone else think that bb can convert to a viral form???

I am glad to see others looking for other opportunistic pathogens

Once you are immuno-supressed from a chronic infection...such as borrelia and other TBD's, it's not a long shot to the realization that you are quite literally a standing duck to other opportunistic infections that may come your way.(This is not ment to scare anyone!!)

And to the reactivation of any latent viruses and/or infections that you may harbor--such as EBV, CMV, HHV-6 and others( like shingles/the cause being the well know childhood chicken-pox virus)

DocDave: I have had great sucess with anti-virals also--I would rate them above ABX--of course this is just my own personal plight with this disease state

I say the theory of: "If you treat the Lyme disease correctly....the viruses that were once latent within your body....will return to their latent stage"

Is a bunch of garbage!!(IMO...In my own experince)

Let's reverse that theory(Hey...If it ain't workin....lets consider fixing it!!)

Since we are seeing/hearing more and more evidence that much of the population has had exposure to the Borrelia strains (slimmed by lyme...as they say) and there are many who are asyptomatic(yes,that, of course, could change at anytime for that particuliar host)should we not pay closer attention to the treatment/management of any/all other opportunistic infections that could be contributing to the further decline/ lack of infectious resolution of that particiliar host?

Let's treat the other opportunistic infections and viruses and see if by relieving the immune system/host of some of the infectious burden----we may very well see a reduction/resolution of many Lyme syptoms--and the ABX may indeed have a greater chance of eradicating enough of the bacteria, that are immune systems could then take over and control the remaining infectious agents

On to other theories mentioned:

Yes, I do tend to believe that lyme can **morph** into a viral like syndrome

Why?

WE have seen recent proof presented at the ILADS conference, and amoung other researchers that the B.B have **sex* with each other, **get it on*** with other bacteria/infectious agents present in the host, and that many cell-wall defiecent organisms literally ***steal** the genetic material from the borrelia bacteria---as to evade the immune system response.
(No wonder we can't sleep at night--the bacteria/viruses are literally having a frat house kegger right in the old bod....and I for one...do not take kindly to this invasion of my humble home-no drinking in my house!)

And we have not even touched on the altering effects of certain CWI ABX--myco colonies, altered L-forms, yada-yada

Just my two cents worth--this is not ment to scare anyone--just food for thought!!

PS---I hope that your husband recieves some relief from the ribavirin!!

And for what it's worth--I alway have gotten worse on any given treatment before I saw improvement(IMOE)

Keep us posted on how he is doing

[This message has been edited by yankee in black (edited 16 November 2004).]

I tend to agree with your hypothesis regarding morphing, if borrelia can morph to L-forms, cystic forms, etc, why not viruses as well.
Curious about your opinion on mixing (maybe pulsing or combo therapy)abx and anti-virals.

No.

B.b. "converts" to cyst (egg) and L (larvae) forms but to say it can convert to viruses is a bit much. Some things really are simpler.

Bb does take dna from other bacteria and cells, however some of that dna is stuff the bacteria is carrying around (literally- like a "cloak") and perhaps stuff it has eaten. I haven't seen any evidence it mates with bacteria outside of it's own species.

I agree on about everything else though. Lyme can cause the immune system to slow down, whether it's from direct destruction of it or from keeping it too busy to deal with some other problems. And it's also possible the chicken came before the egg- could be your husband had a low immune system to start with.

another anti-viral is olive leaf, don't know if it would help or not but it might be worth a try. I deal with at least the EB virus and olive leaf has an effect on that particular virus. I've found it helps a great deal during herxes and EBV flareups. If you can find an anti-viral that would help borna it would definitely help.

The information regarding Borrelias' ability to how shall we say this?? **Co-Hab** with other pathogens( we are not really sure of the grand particiliars) was indeed just presented at the ILADS conference

Believe it or not....the CDC has also ***loosely*** suggested this possability

So you know it has to be ***Old News*** when they finally get around to thinking in this direction( fossilized in fact)

Other sources of information regarding this type of new-age thinking towards Lyme
www.ccid.org

look into to their emerging diseases section

I don't like to mention this fact, but since we are rather deep in this thread...and I do hope many newbies will not ask too many questions....since I will not have the time over the next few days to get into a full blown debate on the subject matter

You are AWARE of the fact that certain ABX can.....alter the borrelia to resemble more of a viral presentation...aren't you?

This may indeed be more of a ****cross-reaction*** genetically, than truly ***converting the pathogen into a viral presentation*****

That can be a tough one to grasp, if you do not have some sort of pharma background(preferably research)

That last paragraph was not a sarcastic comment, please do not take it to mean anything other than...if you have seen it in a lab.....you can indeed believe it.

A great book for all who have been dealing with stealth pathogens....

3rd Edition Cell Wall Deficient Forms, Stealth pathogens By Lida H. Mattman Ph.D

It would ***explain*** what I am trying to...how should we say this...casually say here

Look up L-Forms and Mycoplasmas

Dr Mattman was one of my College Professors at Wayne State University--in Detroit, Michigan......Where we have the proud and honorable status of being the Syphillis capitol of the world

Yankee, I don't beleive either one of us has seen the original material on that presented at that conference.

No offense taken( though I do have the feeling that I should take some offense)

You may want to hit the icon button on my posting, and see what I spent 23 yrs of my life doing for a living

And twelve yrs of school pursueing

(And, no, I do not play**doctor** on T.V., in Holiday Inn advertisments-----too bad...as it probaly would have been a more renumberable path(money-making))

The above hardly makes me any sort of expert, nor anyone esle who posts here....if we were indeed the experts....would it not be a long shot at suggesting that an **expert** may indeed have been able to **cure** one'self with their own knowledge??

I have a brother in law who was at the conference--and is starting to treat some TBD'S in my home state--as a favor to one of the LLMDS in that state---who, by the way, is being constantly flagged for treating the disease---by the OPMC, and the insurance companies--he has four kids to support, and does not need any ****TROUBLE******( the LLMD, not my brother-in-law)

GOT IT!?

Anyway...............

He is trying to take some time with me and go over the presentations

A tutorial of sorts

I don't know your background relating to your experince with lyme disease, or your professional status, ect.,...other than eknowledging that you are suffering from the illness( much as the rest of us who post here)....therefore I am not judging you in any way, shape, or form

Co-Peash? I would appericate the same respect

What I am relating to in my above posting( the one you are commenting on) is the fact, that quite simply.....certain bacteria share some similiarities with certain viruses, mycoplasmas, ect.

HOW?

Though their shared Taxonomy (genetics)
www.ncbi.hlm.hih.gov/Taxonomy/Browser/wwwtax.cgi

Example: some of the strain varients commom in Europe( where many in the German research community consider neuroborrelosis a relapsing fever) share a mycoplasma taxonomy( not all, some)

Henceforth, they may cross-react upon testing, and quite possabily though treatment avenues( what works for one species that is genetically similiar may indeed work for others with similiar genetics) Isn't that one of the many, many ways in which drugs are developed?(YES)

What does that have to do with the species contained within the host?

Let's put it this way....I do not know your gender, race, or age....anything about you for that matter

But if we were to meet....and we both had blonde hair and blue eyes.......how would we know that we are indeed both german, or scandinavian,or english? Not by **looks alone**

All of the mentioned(above) nationalities tend to fall under the German haplotypes(GENES,GENETICS,TAXONOMY)

This is, in essense, what they are saying regarding the *confusion* of some bacteria not to recqonize others that may indeed share some of the same,or similiar genetic sqenceing,but not be totally of their own species( this confusion has happened in the animal species here in the USA also, abit rarely.....we have all heard of the Elk and Deer who have gotten****confused***in the past...not common....but does happen)

Once again, Anyway.....

That could be very well why there is so much cross-reaction within the testing of Lyme disease.......may very well help in bringing about better testing methods, as well as treatment avenues

Right on this site.......Art Doughtry has links pertaining to cross-reaction, possiable false positives and lyme disease

It can and does happen

So.....Is Borrelia EBV, or CMV, OR HHV-6??

NO!

Can there be cross-reaction, confusion within subspecies of bacteria/viremia?

There is a real possiability

This is all speculation....nothing is indeed ****Cut and dry****

But then again........nothing is really ***Cut and Dry*** about the treatment avenues that most here on lymenet have/had pursued, is there?

Just as a counter point(example) to the above statement....No one really knows if a family member indeed suffered from Alzheimiers disease until death, and a autopsy is preformed on the brain to confirm the diagnoses

We just don't know everything about medicine...let alone the human body, and it's host pathogens

I just don't agree.

I don't think lyme bacteria mate with viruses. Or morph into them. I don't think you can convince me of that. And that *is* what you infered in your post. And it seems to be that disagreement that you took exception to. Sorry. I beleive they are different animals.

They can be infected by them, and eat them, and cross react on tests, but I don't think they mate and produce with each other any more than earthworms and roundworms mate with each other. Or dogs and bears

Never mind relapsing fever/lyme hybrids- that is a possibility. Those are both Borrelia species & closely related. More like a poodle and a coyote mating... That is possible. But that was not what you were infering. You were infering that borrelia and viruses mated or morphed into each other.

I am referring to the genetically distinct possability that this can happen

As you yourself stated with regard to animal species--it is not the norm...but indeed does happen( chronic lyme is not the norm either)It may seem like it on lymenet, but I'm from NYC orginally...and most of my friends((medical and otherwise))---have been able to substain a remission from lyme for quite some time--usually takes about 2 yrs of CORRECT TREATMENT to accomplish this, some of these patients have been sx, free for over 10 yrs.) I have not been quite so lucky.

Hey, this is not my research baby....my subspeciality is toxicology---not infectious disease

Are you involved in infectious disease research?

Why I ask? do we really know FOR SURE regarding this topic matter?

NO!!

To put this in perspective...most doctors still don't believe chronic borrelia exsists--some really don't believe in chronic EBV,CMV, ect., unless you are dealing with an AIDS patient( or immune defiecientcy)

So who really knows with regards to this topic matter...since neither one of us is actively researching this subject matter...we will just have to wait and see...won't we?

Pulling up old research papers and such is not the same thing as those who are dealing with the current research at hand

I am not matching wits with you, lymenet is not about that...it is about presenting a forum for brainstorming and think-tanking new ideas and treatment modalities regarding this infectious agent

So with that in mind...all new ideas regarding lyme should be discussed and studied.....openly and honestly

Not just a NO!

Unless you have a very recent study to back that NO!

I'm all eyes and ears--and no--I'm not personally offended by anything that you may post--just value my observations as you may value you own.

Regarding Mattman: Any researcher has had work and theories that have not panned out

Maybe you have experinced this for yourself?

But alot of her theories have indeed panned out though yrs of studies---double blind and others

Hard to do a PubMed search on that one, as alot of her work was done under other doctors' studies.

If you are confusing her with another researcher of the same gere that thinks every single inteity within gods' green earth is infected with pathogenic spirochetes( I said pathogenic) and you disagree with that statement.....

Well, we now have plenty in common---because I agree on that one

Otherwise..We will just have to agree to disagree!

"Mattman concluded that Lyme disease is as endemic here as Malaria is in the Tropics"

that I may agree with. I'm not too sure, but I think it's possible. In that case we may be the people who's immune systems can't handle it for one reason or another. Or maybe we're all barking up the wrong tree- maybe it's babesia that is the real culprit of chronic lyme.

On the bacteria morphing into viruses I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Even if Mattman "says so" we'd still have to agree to disagree. A degree or even a noble nomination wouldn't mean squat to me on that point. Or most other points as a matter of fact. I've been subjected to enough people with medical degrees won by memorization to realize that it doesn't always mean much.