oops! Lymetutu
About seven weeks ago, I started taking Wobenzym (on an empty stomach) - first 8 tablets 3x/day for a few weeks, then went to 6 tablets 3x/day. I didn't notice any GI problems the whole time, although recently I've been having some pain in specific parts of my abdomen.
I got NO relief from inflammation at all with the Wobenzym. The best thing was that my mood seemed better, so I kept taking it. For the last four weeks or so all of my Lyme symptoms have SLOWLY gotten worse: joint pain and inflammation, fatigue, stiff neck, cognitive problems, etc.
I've been thinking that it is just the Lyme returning, abx not working, etc. But I'm wondering if anyone thinks this could be from the Wobenzym? Either an adverse reaction to it, or could this be a herx? It doesn't feel like a herx to me, all the other ones I've had seemed to come on fast and strong. But I haven't changed anything else in my treatment regimen.
BTW, I also take fish oil, multi-vit, co-Q-10, B12, C, ALA, ginkgo, milk thistle.
Any ideas?
thanks,
- Andrew
------------------
oops!
Lymetutu
Lymetoo is right-----GiGi will probably have more definitive info about Wobezyme. Maybe she'll see this & can help you.
I've never taken Wobezyme, but have read about it. As you already know, it's suppose to be one of the best anti-inflammatory when used on an empty stomach-----which is the KEY to making them work.
(I know it gets pricey when you start using it at therapeutic doses or I would have tried it by now.)
Bromelain enzymes and even strong Pancreatin enzymes can also be abrasive when taken as directed "on an empty stomach." I have taken both of these for inflammation. It goes in there and sort of "eats up" or digests inflammation.
Pre-Lyme diagnosis: I told my pain doctor that I had to take Motrin (an anti-inflammatory) for my the pain caused by my natural anti-inflammatories-----Bromelain & Pancreatin when taken on an empty stomach. Didn't make a lot of sense to me.
I just had so much inflammation & nerves were pretty well fried.
Anyway, in researching about Lyme a few years back, I came across advice that it is a good idea to combine Bromelain and ABX for better absorption of the ABX. That does make sense to me mow.
I also read specifically that one Lyme doctor recommended Wobezyme enzymes to be taken on an empty stomach with ABX------but I knew it would get expensive fast.
Do you think Enzyme anti-inflammatories really act like cystbusters-----kind of like Flagyl.
Penicillins are notorious for putting spirochetes into cystic form. If you're not taking a cyst buster like Flagyl or Tindamax, maybe the Wobezyme is acting like a cyst buster. Don't know-------just thinking out loud.
Yes, I'm going out on a limb saying that, but wonder if it could be possible. Have no articles to back this up.
I later learned that Boswellia from the health food store is more of a
"non-abrasive" type of anti-inflammatory.
I have taken that & it didn't hurt me.
Heck, up to that point, I always thought anti-inflammatories were to take away the inflammation, thereby removing the pain. I believe that's exactly what those enzymes do, but they can be abrasive for some.
Anyway, if you stick with the Wobezyme, it will probably help you in many ways. But if the pain is too much----I don't how you can do it.
Maybe reduce the dose & ramp up slowly. Or, try B12 injections with insulin needles which you can even take daily if you need it. Or, be diligent with adequate Magnesium Citrate (not to exclude Calcium taken away from Mg.) And take adequate fluids to flush out toxins.
If you're interested, here's some information about Bromelain:
============================================
From the book, Healthy Healing by Linda Rector Page, ND:
"Bromelain - a naturally occurring enzyme derived from pineapple stems. As a nutritional supplement, it is widey used to assist in the digestion of protein, to relieve painful menstruation, and to treat arthritis.
Bromelain inhibits blood-platelet aggregation (clotting) without causing excess bleeding. It has become a popular internal sports injury medicine, to reduce bruising, relieve pain and swelling, and promote wound healing.
It may also be used externally, as a paste applied to stings, to deactivate the protein molecules of insect venom.
Typically it is taken with meals as a digestive aid, or 30 minutes before or 90 minutes after a meal to help treat sports injuries."
============================================
I've also learned that Bromelain is good to take to speed up healing of a broken bone. It goes in & eats up the debris allowing for faster healing.
Anyway, I'll just throw this out there. If you have read any info about Wobezyme being a possible cyst buster------I'd be interested in hearing if it's in the realm of possibility.
Hope you get this figured out.
Just my 2 cents.
Take Care,
Jan
Edited to delete herbal licorice.
P.S.
Several Lymenetters like Mangosteen which I think you can contact Lymetoo about finding that. I hope to try that eventually. I've got a link on that if you want it.
The old stand-by aloe vera is good for the stomach, but if it's not tea-colored or a specific brand-------it's just not worth the money.
Anyhow, Mangosteen is suppose to be better than aloe vera anyway.
Bye.
[This message has been edited by Recipegirl05 (edited 25 February 2005).]
Wobenzyme is a patented blend of enzymes that I know are metabolized thru the P450 pathways in the liver.
These enzymes will modulate some drugs...
meaning for some the concentration will be indcreased and for others decreased.
But I don't think it could make Lyme symptoms worse..
You'd get toxicity symptoms
if an abx level was concentrated too high.
Barb
You might want to stop taking them and see if symptoms resolve.
Is there anyone at the health food store that is knowledgable that could help you? I have found someone at my store that knows a lot so and has been very helpful.
Hope your feeling better soon!
bpeck---
That was good information about the Wobenzym using the P450 pathway.
I looked to see if Bicillin uses the P450 pathway------didn't find it???
While looking for a chart listing meds using the P450 pathway, I found a site that listed Milk Thistle as interfering with drugs/herbs/dietary supplements using the P450 pathway.
Andrew, I saw you were also taking Milk Thistle which can increase drug levels of Wobenzym, which uses the P450 pathway.
Is this enough information to say Milk Thistle & Wobenzym shouldn't be taken together?
Anybody know?
Here's what I found:
Interactions with Drugs
Animal studies suggest that milk thistle may interfere with the way the body processes certain drugs using the liver's "cytochrome P450" enzyme system.
As a result, the levels of these drugs may be increased in the blood, and may cause increased effects or adverse reactions. Many types of drugs may be affected.
You should speak with a qualified health care provider to obtain a list of these drugs and their possible interactions.
Interactions with Herbs and Dietary
Supplements
Animal studies suggest that milk thistle may interfere with the way the body processes certain herbs or supplements using the liver's "cytochrome P450" enzyme system.
As a result, the levels of other herbs or supplements to be too high in the blood. It may also alter the effects that other herbs or supplements have on the P450 system,
such as bloodroot, cat's claw, chamomile, chaparral, chasteberry, damiana, Echinacea angustifolia, goldenseal,
grapefruit, licorice, oregano, red clover, St. John's wort, wild cherry, and yucca.
Source:
http://www.naturalstandard.com/naturalstandard/demos/patient-milkthistle.asp
You'll need to scroll down to read the above excerpted information.
Thanks,
Jan
quote:
Originally posted by Recipegirl05:
Several Lymenetters like Mangosteen which I think you can contact Lymetoo about finding that. I hope to try that eventually. I've got a link on that if you want it.
------------------------
Anyhow, Mangosteen is supposed to be better than aloe vera anyway.
------------------
oops!
Lymetutu
If it's o.k., I'd like to e-mail you in a while about Mangosteen----to make sure I've got the right link.
Thanks,
Jan
------------------
oops!
Lymetutu
Here's that promised link for Mangosteen. No, I haven't tried it yet, but plan to as I hope to go on Levaquin + another ABX for possible Bartonella next month.
http://www.goformangosteen.com
Bye,
Jan
My holistic person said that it does affect some people with the GI. I did fine for a while then started feeling stomach pain.
My life got a little crazy and I was out of everything for a few months. I have now started back on it, but I cut it back to 3 tablets 3 times a day. If I start to get the pain again, I will cut back some more.
I was also told, you may have to eat a little food with it.
Not sure if this cuts the whole or part effect of what it does.
I really do not want to stop it. I felt like a million bucks in the beginning of Nov.
Good luck.
About 50% of the abx we take are metabolized thry one of the many enzymatic pathways (P450) in the liver, some acting as inducers, inhibitors or substrates.. and certain combo's can be synergistic, or antagonistic, or additive depending on the pathway used.
Drs. rely on the drug companies to sort these out.
Do a search on flockhart P450 - he has a good chart to get you started.
Barb
[This message has been edited by Recipegirl05 (edited 26 February 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Recipegirl05 (edited 26 February 2005).]
Sorry for hijacking your post-----this just seems so important for everybody.
I did find that:
Enzymes Regulate and Strengthen our
Immune System
1. Enzymes strengthen the immune system
2. Enzymes also hinder the development of
excessive immune reactions. As soon as
the pathogenic agent responsible for an
illness is destroyed, the enzymes guide
the defensive system back to a normal
state.
Also read that "Wobenzym N" is the #1 replacement for Aspirin in Germany.
Source:
http://www24.netrition.com/wobenzym_page.html
Barb----
Thanks so much for taking time to answer that. I've already printed out a copy of the awesome Flockhart Cytochrome P450 Chart found at the link below:
http://medicine.iupui.edu/flockhart/table.htm
For new readers: The real magic of this comprehensive chart is that you just click on the drug name & it takes you instantly to related articles. (So you probably want to bookmark the site.)
Just an FYI:
CrimeofLyme said she had an interaction with
Zoloft & Biaxin just like
www.drugdigest.org
reported.
==========================================
SOURCE for info below: www.drugdigest.org
SERTRALINE HYDROCHLORIDE or Zoloft may interact with CLARITHROMYCIN or
Biaxin. Clarithromycin may block the breakdown of sertraline by the liver.
If this happens, blood levels of sertraline could be increased and this could increase the risk of side effects including nausea, dizziness, headaches, and sleep disturbances.
Other more serious side effects may occur due to sertraline's effect on serotonin, a chemical that is found in the brain.
Initially, excess levels of serotonin in the brain may cause increased confusion and restlessness.
Other possible symptoms may include weakness, fever, nausea, and anxiety. In rare cases, high levels of serotonin in the brain may cause severe complications like seizures, stroke, and even death.
If these drugs are used together, your doctor may want to monitor you closely when therapy with clarithromycin is started or stopped, or when the dose of clarithromycin is changed.
If you are experiencing problems, it may be necessary to adjust the dose of sertraline. You may want to ask your healthcare provider about this potential interaction if you think you are having problems.
This interaction is poorly documented and is considered major in severity.
Last Updated: December 2003
===========================================
It also listed that Grapefruit Juice MAY block the breakdown of Biaxin causing toxic levels of the drug.
Bye,
Jan
[This message has been edited by Recipegirl05 (edited 26 February 2005).]
In a recent statement he said: Rechtsregulat "right rotary fluid" is an enzyme-rich extract of fermented fruits and vegetables. It has outperformed the S.C. injection of heparin in our own trials.
If that's not available, Lymbrokinase, he feels, is far more effective than Nattokinase.
A lot is being learned all the time and we need to be careful when reading old website articles, etc. The people on the marketing end do not have to put up with the miseries of patients. A good doctor does and will search for better things constantly.
Take care.
Why multi-Vit that probably contain the B-complex? They feed your parasites, and what is left over may feed you.
Just an opinion.
Take care.
Thanks for your reply - I was looking forward to it. I've stopped the Wobenzyme, and haven't noticed any difference. The only thing I can say for sure is that Wobenzyme DIDN'T help my inflammation at all.
I'm glad to hear an opinion on the other enzymes. I was curious about Nattokinase, but another doctor of mine recommended Lumbrokinase (Boluoke) in addition to you, so maybe that is the one to try.
I'm concerned about your comment on B-complex - I thought they were a good thing. What about B12?
Thanks,
- Andrew