The hubby was doing just great. Then added tinidizole in, 2000mg split into 2 doses, 1 day a week. He's done 2 doses.
It's now 4 days after the 2nd dose, and he's getting heavy night sweats, like pre-babesia tx. Sore, achey, very depressed, and feverish.
I had a bad time with tini when I started my daily doses, but not like this.
Either the babs has come back for him, or this is LD flaring, or...something else.
Anyone have similar reactions to flagyl or to tini? Anyone else doing this on a similar pulsed schedule? This is the only thing he's pulsing. He's also on bicillin, ketek, samento, artimisinin. Plus all supplements. This is definitely not yeast or molds.
Tell him to tough up and give me 25 pushups...oops...wrong thread.
Seriously, who would ever prescribe ONE DAY of Tinnidazole at 2 grams? According to researchers (do a search on Tinny) one needs at least four days for Tinny to work...and at least 2-3 days to achieve minimum concentration in the blood.
Taking such a high dosage without ramping up for a few days is VERY nasty.
I am taking 2 grams per day, for 5 days a week, along with Ketek only.
Tinadazole and metronidazole can and will depress many users...they penetrate the BBB much easier than anything else.
Perhaps your hubbie should back off to 1,500 mgs. and take Tinny for 5 days...one day only might be asking for resistance problems down the road.
In addition, hubbie is taking so many things, it becomes a guessing game to determine if one ingredient is the cause of his problems, or the INTERACTION between the various players.
Samanto...Savarento...whatever, made me feel lousy...and it was NOT a herx.
Peace, Love and Wellness,
JRW
It's very possible hubbie is having a reaction, not a herx. Tini affects both the brain and the liver, so you can get these kind of fevers, sweats, and depression or anger is very common.
Aching can happen when the liver is stressed, but it can also come from too much die off.
It doesn't have to be babesia causing the sweats and fevers. Any flare of infection could bring them on. MAYBE it is because the immune system has been stimulated, but it is hard to tell.
He is on a lot of meds at once. Several are hard on the liver. Is the doc keeping an eye on that? Maybe you want to give him a call on this one.
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Sonoma County Lyme Support
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by riversinger (edited 08 April 2005).]
My typical herx pattern is I get really cold on day 3. I get migrating head pain and intense fatigue on day 4 to 5. Then depression for a day or two on day 7 or 8. Each time I pulse these drugs, the herxes get less intense. And in the beginning, I would have night sweats and itchy dispersed red bumps.
Also, I ran into Martin Atkinson-Barr, who cowrote "the" paper on Flagyl, and he thinks that Metronidazole does kill some Babesia too...and I agree based on my personal experience, though I don't think it works as well as Mepron.
He likes Tini better than Flagyl because there are less side effects, such as peripheral neuropathy and bad taste. But he feels someone needs to do more research to see if Tini works as well.
Because both Tini and Artemesia are neurotoxic, I'd recommend laying off the Artemesia while you're pulsing Tini. Give your liver a break, because Tini is hard enough on it.
My other tips for minimizing herxes are these:
1. As soon as you feel the herx beginning, take an anti-inflammatory such as Wobenzym N 200T for a couple days. http://www.webvitamins.com/?AID=1629565&PID=1620614
2. As soon as you pass what you think is the peak of the herx, day 7 or so, visit a hot sauna and sweat out the toxins. You might want to take a little Niacin 20 minutes before, because it dialates all your capillaries, helping with the flushing process, and getting the drugs into every corner of your body. Start really slow with the Niacin, because it gives you a disturbing "sunburn" feeling the first time, which can be very scary. Read Lorraine's sauna protocol on the Calda web site, under alternative treatments: http://calda.intranets.com/
KrisKraft
quote:
Originally posted by KrisKraft:
Also, I ran into Martin Atkinson-Barr, who cowrote "the" paper on Flagyl, and he thinks that Metronidazole does kill some Babesia too...and I agree based on my personal experience, though I don't think it works as well as Mepron.
i've heard dr.b say the same about flagyl and its anti-parastitic properties.
mepron is definitely first line of defense though.
and the two (especially with artemesia and a macrolide) will rip your liver out!
The doc is very methodical and thoughtful, and is testing liver enzymes every 3 weeks (we do the draw tomorrow). I don't think this is the long-term tini protocol for my hubby; may have just been testing the herx waters.
Thank you for the reminders about artemisinin and samento -- we'll cut them out for now. And I completely agree about not knowing what's a reaction, an interaction, or a herx.
The hubby is on Wobenzyme; dunno if it's doing much, but then again it may have mitigated the worst of...whatever this was. We use our own portable steam sauna about 5 days a week (and we do replace the electrolytes) -- I've come to love the sauna and I think it's invaluable. Thank you very much for the sauna link, Kris.
And for you other flagyl/tini users -- based on all the feedback I've gotten, the hubby's experience is not particularly out of line, although it needs watching. I'll know more after the doctor visit.
Thanks again.
Parahrasing, and inexact, it went something like this:
When the number of meds, otc, prescriptive, herbs, supps, etc. goes beyond 2-3, the odds quickly become exponential, that one will have an adverse reaction.
This is the heuristic I use when considering any kind of combination; and if a doctor, no matter who he or she is wants to give me more than 3 antibiotics,and 3 is really stretching it, there is a good chance I'll reject the offer for this reason. Of course, many other considerations influence my decision-making.
For this reason, at least twice, I decided to go home to die. I mean it. I felt I'd be dead within a month, two months at most.
If "subtley pressured" to do a drug combination about which I have reservation(s), I'll draw up a form for the doctor to sign..." Trust me.
pq
[This message has been edited by pq (edited 08 April 2005).]
This time I was ready. After 3 days I had a huge improvement in my vision, but after abt a week I started a long herx with more aching than I had in a while,mucsle tremors, night sweats, depression,loss of appetite and exhaustion.
This week is better,my new piece is SI joint and hip stifness... my appetite is returning, but I still fatigue easily.
When I saw your post saying your hubby is taking 2000mg/day , I squirmed inside... I'm no expert, but it seems like an aggressive shock on a body.
Your husband may want to consult his LLMd... It's one thing to herx, but to herx too much...
I hope he is doing better soon!
Hope hubby is doing better soon!
------------------
Sonoma County Lyme Support
[email protected]
When I first got diagnosed last Nov. the llmd I was seeing gave me Biaxin and Tini...both at 1000 mg per day, 500 mg am and pm. As instructed, I gradually ramped into the Biaxin, which I had no problem with at all, just tremendous and positive effects.
After that, I was told to add the Tini, again gradually. I tried and tried to get up to the max dose, but never could get farther than 750 mg. My reaction was similiar to others here, very depressed, extreme chill and cold hands/feet, old aches came back and my concentration went south.
I was told after a couple of attempts, that perhaps my load count was too much, and was causing a more severe herx, and, that this abx penetrated the BBB extrememly well, and would cause herxes as described above, but usually harder and faster. A trade off for such a abx that is to be a terrific cyst buster.
Anyway, I've moved on to other abx, and possible will go back to Tini after load count has gotten a chance to go down some. But wow, 2000 mg that fast? Whew....I'm having sympathy pains for him just thinking about how hard that has to be on his system. Any reason he has to go that quickly. Ramping up, especially with the Tini can't be overly underlined here.
I'm thinking good thoughts for you and your hubby Minoucat. Hoping you can back off this dosage amount some and help relieve these symptoms abit.
Hugs from a Pacific Coast neighbor,
JavaBeing