LymeNet Flash: Deer meat

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Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :

Can you get Lyme and coinfections from eating deer meat?

robi

Posted by bigmamma (Member # 7181) on :

I don't think this has ever been proven in literature, but you could eat the prions that cause chronic wasting syndrome in deer (similar to bovine spongiform encephalitis or MAD Cow).

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Posted by Kara Tyson (Member # 939) on :

As long as the deer meat is cooked, you should be fine.

What is NOT fine, is a practice that is common whereas the 1st time a child makes a kill he drinks the blood of the deer.

Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :

I would not take a chance, neither at a restaurant or in my own kitchen preparing it. My appetite for this vanished years ago and I would rather eat a hot fudge sundae with a mountain of whipped cream!

Take care.

Posted by ivebinlymed2 (Member # 7330) on :

Robi, thanks for asking that question. I have a nephew that hunts and eats deer meat.

[This message has been edited by ivebinlymed2 (edited 05 June 2005).]

Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :

GiGi...

Can you make that 2? I'll be happy to join you!

ROBI..

I've lived off of deer meat for years and years. Things to consider..

Deer jerky. We don't cook it. It is marinated and then dried... and eaten that way.

We use to eat "medium rare" meat.. including deer meat. I no longer do.

If a person has a cut or open spot on their skin.. deer blood is NOT to get near it. It is recommended to wear gloves while cleaning deer or any wild game.

After the deer is killed... the deer cools.. and the ticks fall off. Often that is in the yard of the hunter where the deer hangs... or in the truck.

By the way.. I ONLY eat well cooked deer meat now.. IF at all... maybe once a year. No jerky either. I will fix it.. but I don't eat it.

Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :

I know this has been mentioned before, but no real answers - does it end there?

Why just question deer meat? Cows, sheep, chickens, pigs all surely get bitten by ticks....What about milk and other dairy, even yogurt? Some say pasteurization temps are not hot enough and some bacteria survive it.

DLL

Posted by Lymeindunkirk (Member # 7118) on :

Ticks don't just fall off in the hunter's yard or truck. A lot of Hunters will hand the deer in the garage to drain until the next day. I will not allow my husband to even even bring the damn thing home again.

My main problem now is fighting with him about our son going hunting. I'm not spending a fortune to get him well just so he can get bit by a tick while hunting. What to do? I know we ar going to have a huge huge blow out about it.

Posted by ivebinlymed2 (Member # 7330) on :

Thanks for all the info. on Robi's subject of deer meat. I am printing it off for my family.

Hopefully they will see that eating deer meat just isn't worth the risk involved!

Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :

Wow..... I didn't expect to generate this much interest. Thanks for al the replies.
I have never eaten deer met before and I am far from a hunter. I am looking for "clean" in processed meat to eat ..... guess I will stay away from this one!

robi

Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :

Chronic Wasting Disease has been found among farmed deer and wild deer in New York state.

Town's Venison Banquet Puts a State on Alert
By MICHELLE YORK
Published: April 10, 2005
http://www.prwatch.org/forum/printthread.php?t=5466
(this was from the NY Times)

"Through unlucky circumstance, tissue samples from a deer that one farmer donated for the banquet tested positive for chronic wasting disease, and the results were discovered after the meat had been eaten at the banquet. It is the deer version of mad cow disease, and the first documented case in New York.

"The deer that tested positive was one of 18 being raised by an outdoors enthusiast, John Palmer, who lives in Westmoreland, a neighboring town."

Well, if New York state has it, Pennsylvania can't be far behind....

[This message has been edited by Carol in PA (edited 06 June 2005).]

Posted by HEATHERKISS (Member # 6789) on :

No thank you!!!

Posted by Luthien (Member # 7132) on :

Hi,

This is really a tough one. I love deer meat, and I know they say you can't get TBD's this way. But I also know that around the time I had a major flare I had just started eating a lot of it.

Of course I was also living in the middle of them, they'd be so close to the house I could have hunted them from the porch, so I more likely got it from one of their lousy ticks.

But still, I'm not taking any chances. As I said, I really love deer meat, but it's not worth it IMO. But there is just too many things they have yet to figure out about Bb, and it seems they dont' tell the public until half the population is already infected.

Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :

Lymeindunkirk...

It is absolutely none of my business.. but HA... that never stopped me from sharing an opinion.. especially when someone asks.

You said..

"My main problem now is fighting with him about our son going hunting. I'm not spending a fortune to get him well just so he can get bit by a tick while hunting. What to do?"

I have seen both sides of this coin... many times. I understand where you are coming from. I REALLY do... however...

I am of the opinion that we CAN'T let the tick win.

If we do.. it not only affects our health.. but our well being and the rest of our lives, emotionally and spiritually.

Lyme disease is one thing.. true.

But being denied the pleasure of hunting.. and it isn't "all about the kill"... there is MUCH more involved that someone who doesn't hunt will never quite understand... means the fear of ticks is altering lives when they shouldn't be.

NO.. I don't think someone should go lay in tall grass in a tick infested area for no good reason.. especially without protection... but I also don't think we can stop living due to the possibility of a tick bite.

Before you take on this fight.. please do consider the following.

1. If your son were bird watching, fishing, hiking, taking photos of nature, engaged in idle can kicking along the road side, camping, berry picking, at the beach, playing baseball, having a cook out, swimming at the local river or lake, petting a dog, or just playing in his own yard... he could be exposed to ticks. You can't stop all those activities for the rest of his life.

2. Education is the best prevention. Anyone who has had one round about with Lyme .. trust me.. will be MUCH more careful than those who haven't. He is actually safer due to his previous experience.

3. Right now you are headed for a blowout with your hubby.. and your son. Chances are you will not win this one... especially if they side with each other. In other words.. PICK your fights. Best to make them learn to do tick checks better and be diligent about using Permanone on their clothing than fighting about going hunting.

4. If they DO go anyhow.. the fight ahead of time will somewhat spoil the fun and togetherness they would normally have. No one wins with that approach.

5. There are MANY less desirable things a kid can do these days than be with his daddy under strict supervision, enjoying nature and each others company. Maybe consider the negative alternatives before you limit this activity?

6. Is it worth driving a wedge between you and your son.. and/or you and your hubby?

7. If you were 100 percent sure that if your son never hunted, he would never be exposed to ticks or Lyme again.. it MIGHT make some sense to suggest other activities instead of hunting. But no one can ever promise a person won't be re-exposed doing other things.

8. This is one the kid will use as a reason to GO hunting, if he is thinking clearly... "If I was riding with you and we had a car accident.. would I never be allowed to ride in a car again?"

Again.. it is none of my business... but I NEVER like to see people lose by having Lyme... and then lose other things that could be enjoyable too, because of fear.

PLEASE! Don't let the tick win!!!

I do understand.

Ya know.. I remember when moms didn't want their little boys to hunt because they were afraid of them having guns and getting shot.

It is a shame that now the fear is because of a STUPID tick.

What ever you decide.. I hope all are happy with your decission.

------------------
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance...

Posted by broguearcher (Member # 5905) on :

I eat deer meat all the time. I continue to hunt despite my disease. The pain of losing such a treasured activity would be greater than any discomfort I experience from LD. I have two young sons and I plan to introduce both of them to hunting as well.

CWD is something that the game commission here in PA has been monitoring closely. I am confident that if it poses an imminent threat, they will make sure we are informed.

Tincup really hit the nail on the head with the hunting issue and I want to support everything he said. We can't let LD win and keep us from the parts of life that we love.

Sam

Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :

Mad cow disease and chronic wasting in the cow and deer are both thought to be from prions in the brain.

So don't eat the brains.
Although I would not eat any of the internal oragns, including the liver.

The muscle is fine to eat. Although some people just don't like the taste.

My family has eaten wild meat and fish for years, and I think it's far less contaminated
than domestic beef.
(with the crap they inject our domestic meat animals with).

Posted by proud pup (Member # 4152) on :

Thank you so much Tincup for saying what I wanted to say...

My husband and I were born into hunting. We love it and so do our 3 kids.

We live in a tick infested area so we will never no for sure that we got lyme from hunting. We are pretty sure we did not. In fact growing up we had more tick bites then what we do now and that was just from playing outside in our yard.

I am very sick of hearing people say to us that we should give up hunting or not let our kids enjoy hunting. Thats a part of our life and having lyme will not destroy something we love. It has already damanged us in other ways.

Like I said we see more ticks in the yard, in our neighbors yard, at the park, etc. Does that mean we should never let our kids outside????

BTW we eat deer meat. It is much better for you then beef. Less fat.

Posted by Tj33 (Member # 7214) on :

CWD is caused by enviromental poisons in the diet human(CJD) and animal. Usually caused by a copper deficiency. (Mammal Brains are "wired" with copper).. Governments know it but blame a "sneaky" bug for it. They don't won't the lawsuits for the poisons they caused. Manganese is the biggest industrial poison. Google "Mark Purdy" and read.... Be sure to read about the horrors of the "mad" miners of manganese on the Austrialian island of Groote Eylandt (Worlds largest Manganese mine).

Lyme is by far the worst disease on record.
As far as eating deer meat. It is totally insane. "Keets" are hard to kill as we all know. People in high infestion areas should not have animal pets around children.
MY wife has Lyme, she is from Wisconsin and when we visit. I see lyme symptoms in most of her relatives. Many are avid deer hunters and campers.

[This message has been edited by Tj33 (edited 06 June 2005).]

Posted by Kara Tyson (Member # 939) on :

I dont eat deer meat and only in the last couple of years started eating any meat.

But if I do eat chicken, I do my best to find Kosher.

The FDA will allow the diseased parts of chickens to be cut out and then approve the rest. Kosher certification does not allow any diseased parts--the whole chicken must be thrown out.

Posted by duke77 (Member # 5051) on :

I have often pondered the question of getting Lyme from eating rare meat.

Recently I read somewhere that researchers claim you can get it from consumption. I looked for the link but could not find it.

I also believe it doesn't just have to be deer meat either. Lyme can affect all mammals and who says ticks, biting flies, etc don't bite cows or other livestock.

I have never been a hunter but every male on my wifes side is a hunter and I see Lyme symptoms in all of them. Ringworm type rashes, malar rashes, kidney problems, fatigue, joint problems, migranes, psoriasis, lots of visible bruising, poor sleep, back pain, shortness of breath, etc.I even see symptoms in my wifes cousin's small children. I stopped along time ago trying to get them tested. They thought I was crazy thinking everyone has Lyme.

Posted by Tj33 (Member # 7214) on :

The government Mad Cow/Human thing is a politically correct theory. Government refuses recognize the studies that prove that there is no "stealth" bug or magic infective prions. Purdy has taken a lot of heat from the government for his studies disproving the govt theory.
Prions are just a specialised protein designed to carry the copper ion to where it is needed in the brain. It is not infective. If you substitute another metal in the prion in a copper depeleted dietary enviroment the brain will be poisoned by the non copper metal. Uranium, cobalt, other heavy metals will cause the same effect. MCD was not known before Chernoble. England was downwind. By the by, I take 2mg copper tabs 3 times a week... Modern artifical foods have very little nutrition. Oh by the by, the salt licks put out for cows , contain large amounts of manganese (cheap salt).
It is government lies driven by the Food industry that tells people to eat the veggie oil poisons that destroys the immune system.
Eat the way humans have done for centuries before the artifical fats lies started (about 1950) and you won't go wrong.
Butter, eggs, natural fats and veggies is the way to go. Avoid soy, white bread, soft drinks, corn syrup, as much as possible...

Of course, lymies know how much the government can be trusted..
One thing for sure is, Lyme is infective and is far more serious than Mad Cow/Human disease.
I wish the government would put their money and energy in solving the Lyme puzzle instead of covering up the enviromental poisons causeing MCD.

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

Yes if its under cooked.

Posted by duke77 (Member # 5051) on :

tj33,

I disagree with one thing you said. "MCD was not known before Chernoble" Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease has been around for a very long time Creutzfeldt discovered it in the early 20's certainly before Chernoble. It probably was around long before the 20's come on does anyone really think the first case of Lyme was in the 70's.

It was thought to be isolated in squirrels. People who ate Brunswick stew (authentic Brunswick stew contained squirrel brains) if the brains were infected the people got infected.

Posted by 8man12 (Member # 7664) on :

If you look at the odds,there are far more people i know who have never hunted that have lyme disease than hunters.My friends eat jerky,you name it,they are fine.

Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kara Tyson:
As long as the deer meat is cooked, you should be fine.

What is NOT fine, is a practice that is common whereas the 1st time a child makes a kill he drinks the blood of the deer.

##

GROSS!!!
###

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol in PA:
Chronic Wasting Disease has been found among farmed deer and wild deer in New York state.

Town's Venison Banquet Puts a State on Alert
By MICHELLE YORK
Published: April 10, 2005
http://www.prwatch.org/forum/printthread.php?t=5466
(this was from the NY Times)

"Through unlucky circumstance, tissue samples from a deer that one farmer donated for the banquet tested positive for chronic wasting disease, and the results were discovered after the meat had been eaten at the banquet. It is the deer version of mad cow disease, and the first documented case in New York.

"The deer that tested positive was one of 18 being raised by an outdoors enthusiast, John Palmer, who lives in Westmoreland, a neighboring town."

Well, if New York state has it, Pennsylvania can't be far behind....

[This message has been edited by Carol in PA (edited 06 June 2005).]

There were two incedences with deer meat in NY these deer came from farmed deer meat that were in the herd these deer were both imported from out west. From what I understand it was before there was a bann on for getting deer from other than local state deer.

Pandoras box is open!!! I know PA game commision PGC are watching and have ban's on importing any live animals. They also put up testing areas all over the state of PA to take samples from deer shot during hunting season and they test the Elk herd every year.

There is some new studies that say the prion is just a difective protien But is caused by something other than this malformed protien.. If I have time ill try and find this artical.

Ps I will still eat deer meat but thoroughly cooked only canning makes it even tastier!!
But if they find prion disease. Ill never eat it again untill they figure what causes it for sure.

Theres still alot of theories on it.

Ps people should know you have just as much of a chance of getting it and other diseases from Livestock the FDA's testing correctly has really fallen behind.

Just look at the spinach ,green onions,debachle
in the last year.

Iam not sure but why has this become a problem dont they wash these foods well enough anymore or arent they using good disinfectents even clorox added to water kills thousands of microbes and virus's.
Especially from inside the USA both these last two came from here.

Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :

I LOVE this debate ! Feels like I am in a spectator sport!Watching the pros and cons go back and forth- BRAVO !

Now what about Buffalo meat-we have a few of those roaming around the farms of Baltimore County. Where do they fit into the food chain-toxic or non toxic?

Carol B

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cobweb:
I LOVE this debate ! Feels like I am in a spectator sport!Watching the pros and cons go back and forth- BRAVO !

Now what about Buffalo meat-we have a few of those roaming around the farms of Baltimore County. Where do they fit into the food chain-toxic or non toxic?

Carol B

They fit in the same as any wild or domestic meat.

What I see as the biggest problem was the feeding of livestock with fortifieds feeds fortafied with parts and pieces of dead animals not fit for human consumption they added this to there feed bone mill dryed ground up parts fed too pigs,sheep cows etc.

Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :

Yes, this is a thread from more than a year ago, but still relevant.

Visionoftruth,
You asked, "Am I missing something?"

Yes, I think maybe you are.

Where are all the deer and elk getting it?

Well, apparently the prions can be excreted in the animal's waste.
So, another deer comes along and grazes, and can pick it up that way.

Salt licks seem to spread it also, so maybe there are prions in the saliva.

I cannot back this up with hard data, but I got the info from someone who does work with deer.

I know you "can't believe everything you read in the papers," but I read several articles about hunters in the upper midwest who developed the human version of mad cow, variant Creutzfeld Jakob.

The articles about the infected deer at the deer farms in New York state don't tell you that the deer from the farms mingled with the wild population.
They got out over the fence, but came back to the enclosed area to get food.

Treepatrol:
Regarding the spinach that is infected, this doesn't have to be from the wash water.

If the irrigation water was tainted, the spinach plants would absorb that bacteria.
And then it's within the plant, and washing the leaves won't clean it off.

Also, about cooking the deer meat thoroughly, you need to know that would not get rid of the prions, if they were there.

Hospitals found that autoclaving the instruments used for brain surgery DID NOT kill the prions, if the person was infected with variant Creutzfeld Jakob disease.

Apparently, the instruments could spread the disease to the next patients they were used on.

I understand that they're using disposable instruments now for brain surgery.

Carol

Posted by 8man12 (Member # 7664) on :

Deer-free Areas May Be Haven For Ticks, Disease
Excluding deer could be a counterproductive strategy for controlling tick-borne infections, because the absence of deer from small areas may lead to an increase in ticks, rapidly turning the area into a potential disease hotspot, according to a team of U.S. and Italian researchers.
"Deer are referred to as dilution hosts or dead-end hosts," says Sarah Perkins, a postdoctoral researcher at Penn State's Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics. "They get bitten by ticks but never get infected with tick-borne pathogens, such as the bacteria causing Lyme disease."

However, deer are critical to adult female ticks in the last stages of their three-part lifecycle. Ticks use them for a final blood meal before dropping off to produce thousands of eggs, Perkins explains. Currently, health officials believe that removing deer from the equation could disrupt the tick lifecycle and leave fewer ticks to feed on rodents, which, unlike deer, can transfer a range of tick-borne pathogens. Ultimately the tick-borne disease will fade out.

Posted by eddog (Member # 8844) on :

I have been involved with hunting all my life..grew up with hunters, became a hunter, became a Wildlife Biologist, became a Game Warden, hunted all over the USA and in all of my 56 years never heard of a hunting tradition that involved the drinking of the blood of one's first deer.

I have heard of an "annointing" of the new hunter with the blood of their first kill which involves dipping a finger into the animals blood and placing a mark on the successful hunters forehead.

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol in PA:
Yes, this is a thread from more than a year ago, but still relevant.

Visionoftruth,
You asked, "Am I missing something?"

Yes, I think maybe you are.

Where are all the deer and elk getting it?

Well, apparently the prions can be excreted in the animal's waste.
So, another deer comes along and grazes, and can pick it up that way.

Salt licks seem to spread it also, so maybe there are prions in the saliva.

I cannot back this up with hard data, but I got the info from someone who does work with deer.

I know you "can't believe everything you read in the papers," but I read several articles about hunters in the upper midwest who developed the human version of mad cow, variant Creutzfeld Jakob.

The articles about the infected deer at the deer farms in New York state don't tell you that the deer from the farms mingled with the wild population.
They got out over the fence, but came back to the enclosed area to get food.

Treepatrol:
Regarding the spinach that is infected, this doesn't have to be from the wash water.

If the irrigation water was tainted, the spinach plants would absorb that bacteria.
And then it's within the plant, and washing the leaves won't clean it off.

Also, about cooking the deer meat thoroughly, you need to know that would not get rid of the prions, if they were there.

Hospitals found that autoclaving the instruments used for brain surgery DID NOT kill the prions, if the person was infected with variant Creutzfeld Jakob disease.

Apparently, the instruments could spread the disease to the next patients they were used on.

I understand that they're using disposable instruments now for brain surgery.

Carol

I understand that they're using disposable instruments now for brain surgery.Thats good!

Hospitals found that autoclaving the instruments used for brain surgery DID NOT kill the prions, if the person was infected with variant Creutzfeld Jakob disease.
I knew that too they have tryed to destroy prions with heat over 2000 degrees nothing changed.

If the irrigation water was tainted, the spinach plants would absorb that bacteria.
And then it's within the plant, and washing the leaves won't clean it off.
Thats a little iffy theres barriors in plants .

Regarding the spinach that is infected, this doesn't have to be from the wash water.
No I meant the wash water dosent have any bactercides in it such as clorine?

The articles about the infected deer at the deer farms in New York state don't tell you that the deer from the farms mingled with the wild population.
They got out over the fence, but came back to the enclosed area to get food.
Didnt here that.

Also, about cooking the deer meat thoroughly, you need to know that would not get rid of the prions, if they were there.Your absolutly right on with that.

{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
http://www.bath.ac.uk/bio-sci/brown.htm

Prion = short for proteinaceous infectious particle.

http://www.cqs.com/opmadcow.htm

http://www.dbb.su.se/research/Bedecs_Katarina.html

If organophosphates are indeed the causal factor in BSE and nvCJD, the agrochemical giants such as Monsanto, Syngenta, and Aventis have more to fear than litigation. As the toxic effects and persistence of organochlorine pesticides became known, the agrochemical industry shifted to organophosphates, which represent the majority of insecticides and herbicides in use today. They are the underpinning of highly mechanized, pesticidal agriculture, which is used to grow more than 90% of U.S. produce. Most non-organic produce today has measurable residues of organophosphate pesticides. Evidence of danger of these widely-used chemicals is a serious threat to a cornerstone of U.S. agribusiness.

Additionally most of the revenue and sales advantage of genetically modified crops - such as Roundup-Ready Soybeans - are based on the widescale use of organophosphorus herbicides such as Roundup and Liberty (Basta). Serious health concerns regarding this class of pesticides would place the genetic engineering of crops into question.

Probable cause MONEY as usual

Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :

CWD is a ancient disease. Sheep get it, its call scrappies. CWD is a relatively new description and the use of ruminants as feed has spread the disease everywhere. It also occurs spontaneously. This like HIV may have originated from a single animal someplace.

The interesting thing is that the Prions (which is a name that describes something that is protien like but not a protien) can survive in very hostile enviroments. The problem is that if a wild animal has the disease, and dies, everything else will be biodegraded, leaving only the prions to float free in the environment. This means getting into the soil, water and everyplace else. This is particularly nasty since the dam things can infect an animal simply by ingestion.

Years back (and maybe even today) veterinatrians where taught that scrappies (CWD for Sheep) was caused by a "slow" virus. Such a virus has a slow mutliplication time but as with all other infections follows an exponential growth curve.With such a growth characteritic, low levels of infection don't do much but as time goes on the situation goes out of control like a nuclear reaction.

Sheep seem to be able to pass the disease amounts themselves so this makes sense. Maybe it may be that the prion somehow affects the host DNA and causes the virus like organism to appear or maybe causes a common virus to be modified into something that cases CWD???

There are a number of highly suspect cases of human CWD (vCJD) that appear to have been caused by eating wild animals. Even so, the fact that they have feed the farmed animals contaminated food, I think the likely hood of getting CWD from farmed animals is higher than from wild. This combined with the fact the sick animals will die faster in the wild then in captivity I think the odds are in your favor with the wild animals. On the other hand, if an infected farm animal is found, there is a big investigation and the full extend of infection is quantified. Not soo for wild animals for obvious reasons.

Also remember, despite government assurance there is no where close to full inspection of farmed animals for CWD. Do any have low level infection? Likely Yes, at least thats what I think.

In either case, bacteria do not survive the cook process so you should be OK in that regard.

Those are my thought on the subject....

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

quote:
Originally posted by visionoftruth:
I still don't understand how from east to west coast deer/elk/moose are ending up with this CWD.

Salt blocks are not that distributed and farm deer that are fed improperly would not spread like that if mixed with the wild population.

It just doesnt add up to me..

Salt blocks are sold every where and with the way tv is and internet people buy them from every where.

Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :

spread everywhere????
How about birds.... meat eating birds in particular...

It took many years for it to be recognized that ticks are spread by birds, why not other diseases. Just look at the rapid spread of H5N1 over 1/2 the world in a mere 2 years, this despite extreme measures of killing many many birds just in case.

???maybe... maybe not???

Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :

Vision.

Having looked at the website on your post. It basically summs everything up. One perhaps misleading piece of information is the prevelance of vCJD. In the past CJD may not have been recognized and therefore there would be no prior geneological history of the disease to put the person at risk. Other sources indicate that the aquired CJD and vCJD figures are reverse. No big deal but I Thought would mention it.

I learned quite a lot about CJD and vCJD.... The reason was simple. I ,(as a resultof the pi$$ poor tests that where pushed by a particular university in california and adopted world wide as a definative test for CJD) for close to 1 month carried around a CJD diagnosis for my deteriorating neurological condition. I know one other Lyme sufferer (who is now fully recovered after 8 weeks of IV antibiotics + 8 weeks follow up orals) who was in the same situation as me.

How was the diagnosis overturned? By the time I got to see the guy who specialized in CJD, I had not deteriorated fast enough and thus did not have it. The same with the person I know.

The test that was used was a CSF test for 14-3-3 protien. Despite what was touted as being the "definative" test for CJD, all it turned out to do was to act as a marker for any process in which brain tissue damage occured. Things like Lyme, Parkinsons and a whole host of others.

I guess one thing is certain, once you have recieved a definative diagnosis for CJD, Lyme is easy to accept..... The other thing I learned was
When it comes to medical things... Trust but verify...

A final note... It was interesting that the neurologists that I saw (these where all MD-PHD types from universities) tested for a 1 to 2 in a million disease but never even considered the posibility of Lyme... I think that there has to be
some new educational materials published which state the real facts of Lyme and in particular lyme + co-infection syndromes.

That my .02 for what its worth.

Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :

When faced with the CJD dognosis, I asked for confirmation via biopsy. The opinion at that time was that biopsy was a hit and miss exercise and if you had it it would be rapidly progressive so that in its self would sufficient proof. The resultant conclusion is that a biopsy was of no practical value. For EEG, that is somewhat diagnostic but only in advanced stages and only in some forms of CJD, so again while it might help diagnosis in figuring out why the person is going into a declining vegitative state, it does not help much.
The 14-3-3 was heavily pushed at many many conference,the story of the reliability was so compelling that all countries that set up to monitor CJD and vCJD in people used it as the primary test. It took about 2 years but it started to be recognized that the 14-4-4 was giving a lot of false positives. The first to comprehensively report the differentials in diagnosis was from national CJD moniting center in switzerland. The differential list was relatively long but from what I recall, no insect vectored diseases were mentioned.

Subsequent to that some people started looking for additional tes for CJD diagnosis. One that seemed to be pretty good was 14-3-3 combined with a isomer of the tau protein. Despite the apparently good co-relation, it was never adopted in the surveylance programs as far as I know. I suspect that once the CSF 14-3-3 test was discredited, no one was willing to look at any other CSF tests.

I had also looked at MRI options. Here again the changes are rather subtle or not visible at all on the normal t1 and t2 sequences. I strongly suspect however that a large volume MRSpet would provide a lot more information. In fact I think a lot of diseases could be better diagnosed if people got away from the commodity sequences like t1-t2-flair-contrast and looked at MRS as well as MRA seqeunces (which pretty well all machines can do for an extra software cost). I mentioned to to a fellow that worked on CJD and ALS, but he seemed uninterested as did some of the other neurologists. In neurology I sense a certain negative attitude on certain things. Maybe this is brought on by the fact that neurologists can only diagnose and in all but a few cases have never had a disease that they can cure not just treatable. I had hoped that the fact that Lyme is one that is curable (in many cases but not all) would be of some interet... It was not.

Then there is the whole issue of what some are calling "atypical" CJD. This supposidly is CJD but in a much slower form, in which deterioration occurs over years rather than months. I guess if you look hard enough you can find anything..

On the rumninat based feed. the problems with this have been known basically for ever. Its just the idiots where so cheap that it sounded like a good way to make more money and now that the jennie is out of the bottle, the "rigourous" testing program of .0001% sample is sufficient. At least they have some chance of intercepting a cow that can no longer walk to stand before it gets turned into burgers. Still stories do come out of payoffs to inspectors to let the animal pass... no matter what. It is somewhat reminisent of the past where organized crime was involved in selling contaminated meat that failed FDA inspection to the military. They had a complete system worked out with fake stamps and preservation techniques aimed at making the carcas look safe to process.

As you said it all comes down to money. If would be far easier (and safer) if the goverment just make paper money easier to duplicate. That way it would be way easier just to print illegal money rather than robbing, cheating, poisoning and killing for money.

I am still betting on the viral route, with Prions being somehow able to re-arrange a more common virus. It would be interesting to compare the prevalence of CWD in various herbs with the baseline infection rates of other diseases in the same heards. Maybe some people don't want to know the answer.....

On one more thing... fot the vegans out there. Eating none meat is also not a gurantee that you won;t consume prions. The prions can contaminate the soil and easily survive 600 degree heat. So what? one might say....
Well how do they dispose of prion carrying cows?
They burned them...burned them real good. All the tissue and prions went up in smoke only to be carried everywhere and then carried to earth by the wind and rain..... Another really smart move... Just as smart as blowing up a chemical weapons factory, with the end product inside of it.....

At least you can say "We got them there sickly cows and burned them up real good, just like my daddy told me to, before he died of CJD...."

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

Hey david1097
Do you think now lets stretch our mind a bit here.

Could lyme be the catalyst for this {{{cwd}}} since it is only one of the bacteria that inherently messes with DNA and Protien sequences??

This has been {{pun here}} in the back of my mind for quite a while. Borrelia in combination in the right circumstances may be miss folding a protean in conjucntion with a absorbed virus??

Dont forget that borrelia has virus like qualities.

Just a thought.

[ 28. September 2006, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :

quote:
Originally posted by visionoftruth:
In the case of CWD I think this is worthy of thinkable but sorta doubt it...

That's the reason I pointed out the CWD epedimic has spread from east to west coast statistically.

Check this video out:

rtsp://128.205.242.20/Title_01_01.rv

you need real player..

Iam watching the video you posted.
I think it may have something to do with it either indirectly or directly caused by borrelia.
It may be a combination of what borrelia does dna now apply that to a virus thats been effected by borrelia then replicating the virus's new programming.
Or borrelia effected by a lack of some piece that it needed then replaced with virus's parts. or vice a versa.

Scrapie is from sheep and raised in north east where ticks have a long stronghild.
Theres something to it just rambleing.

Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :

I think that there are a lot of candidates for the cause. Ricksettial and any intracellular bacteria has the potential to affect the DNA of the host cell. Add to that a virus or 2 and you could be looking at quite a large number of possible causes.

One thing for sure, what ever it is, it is not the Prions alone and it is very hard to see what the actual cause is. I have not seen much information on the possible passage of the disease via blood, still there are very strict protocols that are used for the handlng of any instrument that has been exposed to blood of a CJD patient.

If the blood is that infective, it makes absolute sense that the disease can be passed by a blood sucking insect, if only for the reason that some bugs bite more than once and if the infective agents are so stable as to require extreme sterilization measures, one would have to think that the agent would survive in the insect even it does not get passed to the offspring.

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :

If I am remembering correctly, CWD in the mule deer here in Colorado was first detected ONLY in domesticated deer (deer in capitivity). The wild, native deer all tested negative (initially).

So, frankly, I suspect that MAN had something to do with this disease - possibly something in commercial feeds.

As for Lyme Disease, I'm not sure I would be any more hesitant to eat deer meat than beef. We already KNOW that Bb was found in Wisconsin dairly cattle, and that discovery was years ago.

Tracy

Posted by sizzled (Member # 1357) on :

Bone meal and blood meal are used to fertilize soil.

Is this blood and bone from .......?

Possible source of the spread of prions???

Posted by Remember to Smile (Member # 25481) on :

Good question, sizzled. Anyone?

Posted by onbam (Member # 23758) on :

I wouldn't eat it--who knows what sorts of temperatures the spore form can survive?