posted
New images capture virus in extraordinary detail
Anne Trafton, News Office February 8, 2006
Fifty years after MIT researchers pioneered the use of electron microscopy to study viruses, MIT scientists have helped produce the most detailed images yet of the tiny infectious agents.
The images, which show for the first time a virus poised to inject its genetic material into a host cell, grace the cover of the Feb. 2 issue of Nature.
Scientists have known for decades that viruses infect cells by injecting their genetic material, either DNA or RNA, into host cells, but even with electron microscopy, "we could never see the details of that aspect of it," said Jonathan King, an MIT professor of biology and one of the authors of the paper.
The researchers, led by Wen Jiang and Wah Chiu of the National Center for Macromolecular Imaging at Baylor College of Medicine, focused on viruses that infect bacteria, known as bacteriophages. Their paper diagrams the structure of a virus that infects Salmonella bacteria.
But I still have questions--- and please answer these probably dumb questions kindly.
Weren't we always told that bacteria and viruses are two different things"
As in:
A doc says, no abx for XXX because it's a virus so abx don't work on them.
However, I remember in the muggy reaches of my mind a science article about the theory that they might be not quite so *separate* as thought before: Like they might *communicate* with each other or ??
So, if a bacteriophage is a bacteria with a virus living inside it---- what is that?
And would abx kill that bacteria?
And if it did--- would the virus die?
And how many stars are there in the sky, Daddy?
Told you they were dumb---- but I'm confused.
BTW--- how you added *more* at the bottom that linked to the full article was neat!
Yes, They are different entities. And yes there is strong evidence that in particular, different bacteria do "communicate". It is quite likely that viruses also "understand" the existence of other entities in their environment.
An infected bacteria is called a prophage. It would most likely still be susceptible to abx. The subsequently denuded viral material may "die" as a result of exposure to the body's defenses.
More importantly, imagine a cold virus which is "taught" or designed to recognize and attack Bb. You get a shot, a hell of a cold and wa-la....no more Bb. It'd be a hell of a herx!
As to the number of stars....Lots!! Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
There are two kinds of bacteriophages. One kind destroys the bacteria, and is called lytic. This is what is getting used in treatment of some bacterial infections. The Russians especially worked on this for years, and now some American groups are involved.
I posted some material on sci.med a while back on the current state of progress in bacteriophage research and usage. There are clinical trials in progress and two clinics that treat certain infections. But they say specifically that there is not a treatment for lyme. Don't know if there will be; some infections are not suitable. But time will tell.
One of the commercial applications being worked on is using bacteriophages instead of abx in agriculture, as in industrial animal raising. This is less fraught with difficulties than human research. And easier to get approved.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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I sure haven't posted here for quite some time, but this thread is quite interesting to me for a multitude of reasons-most worth mentioning with regard to borrelia sufferers
I did not notice any mention of which virus( Ooops, I'm editing here it's the Epilson 15--but I stiil wonder about the theories below with regard to b.b) they believed was infecting the salmonella bacterium--and the issue is most likely "moot" with regard to that particular article,
"But"..........
I would stake a guess that one of the most capable viruses to nominate for the award would be EBV--or any of the B-cell lympho-proliferative virus agents.
EBV--The supposed "Red Herring" of Lyme Land--is the virus I'm going to use with my examples below:
I never did "get" that mindset---as we know that EBV induces tumor growth in those with many sorts of immune suppresion, causes Lymphomas,ect.
It can out and out destroy the developing immune system in the fetus ( may be one the causes of Primary--meaning "at-birth" immune deficiencies)---and It's been "pretty well proven" that when left un-checked, at pathogenic levels in the body--it can cause genetic mutations in the mature immune system---which BTW, are likely permanent.
CMV, HHV-6, And Toxioplasmosis goondi(SP--It's late) can lay an immune system "flat", too.
There was quite a bit of discussion here on Lymenet--many moons ago---about whether one needed to treat re-actived, omini-present( typically latent) viruses with the Lyme ( sort of like treating co-infections at the same time)
Different LLMDS had different opinions---and I really suspect that this may have been based on the indiviual experince and medical training with regard to the importance of these viral entities.
I do believe that Dr. B's latest protocol does suggest that co-treatment is a requirement when both are present.
But what really struck me about this article---Was the Fact that Garth Nicolson of the GWS fame( He was at MD Anderson at the time--He was the David Burton Chair)---several years ago suggested that many cases of chronic lyme ( not all--remember that!) may indeed be cases of viruses---such as EBV, CMV, HHV-6, ect., that have "adapted" the genetic sequencing from the borrelia "hull" ( stolen the host cell's Taxonomy)
Being that viruses do not have their own cell walls, and are missing many other important, "goodies" that most bacterium contain--this would not be a real "long-shot".
There is also the strong mind-set that---aside from HLA halotypes, and common alleles seen in many Chronic borrelia sufferers--that the co-infection with some of these agents may be what causes some patients to have more serious neurologicial manifestations than other sufferers.
I hate to suggest this theory here( DO NOT shoot the sender here....it is not my research baby)--but there is also "some proof" that these HLA haplotypes may have been mutated by some of these Th1/Th2 mediated disease states( notice that I stated Both)--meaning that these types are "NOT common" among the general, healthy populations tested.
They have located a "fairly" common genetic muation among sufferers of CVID and IgA immune deficient states--as another example
I would like to get a hold of these research subjects---and see just what infectious pathogens that they( or their family members) have been passing down---from generation to generation--as we know Brucellia can congenitially transfer for up to seven generations( this is just one example, polio virus is possiably another)
Just another piece of the chronic lyme disease puzzle
Maybe as more is understood about viral agents and bacteriums----"co-habing"( Bacteriophages) we may finally get some where as to developing a serious cure/control for this entity( Borrelia-I never believed that it was just a bacterium,maybe some exotic sort of Bacteriophage??)
Anyway, just brainstorming out loud
Good night
Posts: 468 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Hmmm, that was some brainstorm. Not sure I followed all of it. But my impression is that maybe nature is too complex for us mere mortals to unravel. Or was that the wrong message to get?
If viruses, etc are affecting gene expression.....or adding genes or something, why would it be permanent? As far as I have been able to understand this at all, they are saying that the environment does affect genes. Bacteriophages that are lysogenic are sometimes not stable, decay, etc. If this happens in nature, then why would there not be some way to alter it intentionally? Or maybe that gets us back to humans not being smart enough to figure it out?
It does seem that there is a whole universe of interactions at the microscopic level that we do not understand, just have clues and a lot of guessing at this point.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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chroniclymie
Unregistered
posted
my theory all along is that the bacteria mutates to a viral form and forms the cysts inside the tendons and muscles. the comparison of a chronic lyme infection to a chronic herpes infection are almost identical. both hide in the body, both iniated by stress, both cause immune deficiency, neither respond to treatment. my theory started seceral years ago with some research from i think UCLA on the breaking off of genetic materials from viruses and then imbedded in the mitocondria of bb cells. this is very similar if not the same as the genetically engineered mycoplasm that the government reasearch lab has a patent on. i have been on antivirals long before Dr. B thought it might be necessary and although i have chronic lyme with a positive hla dr4, i have very few symptoms of neuro-lyme because of the antivirals.
i have been in contact with a geneticist and oncologist at Johns Hopkins and have given them my theories on using non-potent virues (gentically engineered) to induce the new gene therapy that has been developed. they are presently working on a non-virulent strain and trying to splice the good DNA into the virus, so that it can replace the bad DNA ie. p53 gene for causing cancer. this may also be the wave of the future for killing the bb strain as you stated above, using good gene viruses to replace the bad dna viruses and bacteria. also posible may be a supermacrophage or white blood cell the can handle and kill more bad bacteria in the body ,than the ones presently in or blood stream. these could be used on immune defiecient indivduals with low t cell counts and high risk for infections.
ChronicLyme, (aka Dave) I also have the same sort of "Treatment Luck" that you do with the anti-virals--which is currently the mainstay of my protocol
I went off of all ABX for 9 months' and tested to see if I had developed any resistance due to a constant 6 yrs worth of various ABX protocols
I only have a slight resistance to Penicillin (it should still be helpful if needed)
But ABX stopped working for me quite some time ago----and with a compromised immune system ( that does check out to having the hla dr3, and the newly discovered TACI mutations) I can no longer take the chance of creating anymore drug resistance---since I have already met up with Staph A once---and was quite lucky to survive it--most likely due to no aquired vanco resistance.
Anyway...I'm behind you on your theory and all the reseach that you have helped intiate!!--Please keep us abreast of any new developments!!
I'm also glad to hear that your neurologicial sypmtoms are kept in check by the anti-virals!
One issue that may be of interest to note here---Now I warn you, as I have no proof on this theory, but here goes, as it just takes common sense to figure this out:
Aside from all the obvious political issues surrounding this disease/including the question of the "True Origins" of Borrelia senso stricto--
Could part of the true problem in B.B research be that fact of the nice pure, clean specimens that they use to study senso stricto "In-vitro"??? --nothing esle contaminating the pathogen---no wonder Doxy stops the pathogen dead in it's tracks in the petrie dish..............
In-Vivo is a whole 'nother can of worms', being that the human species brings quite a lot of latent pathogens to the "party" when they are stricken with B.B + Co.---and to my knowledge---there has never been any really decent studies afforded to the combining( as viewed in the above article) of these pathogens, and what the out come may be as far as disease progression with B.B--i.e, just how much could this complicate the infectious process---regardless of any underlying genetic influence.
And that's not even taking into consideration the oppurtunistic infections ( that are not omni present, latent in the human body) that are aquired along the way due to the immuno-suppresive nature of chronic borrelia
I hope you reseach is successful--althought it may be a bit of a long road ahead--with all the different scenerios that can present with viral pathogens--but any information that takes us forward is great information!!
I personally am interested in the forementioned super WBC's since mine are always low---and of course--do not do their "job" correctly due to an earlier than expected demise.
Lou: Yes, some mutations are indeed permanent--they are called "somatic mutations", meaning that they are aquired thru-out our life times--due to various chemical, toxic, enviromential ( could that also mean pathogenic?) exposures.
They say that by the time most of us are 40 yrs old---our systems have developed over 250 different genetic mutations that were not with us at birth---henceforth the old joke about "Life causes Cancer"
Sometimes when the cause of the mutation is removed ( like certain forms of cancer)--the mutation may cease to exsist. Sometimes the damage may already be done. ( I'm not real "great" at explaining that theory)
It is well known that Toxioplasmosis Gondi can cause genetic mutations in the developing human fetus---and there has been studies that have found it to cause genetic mutations ( mainly immunilogicial) in mature adults--but in the adults, there may be other variables that "play" into the role--as you know---genetic can get pretty darn complex
The mutations that are truly genetic are called "germ-line mutations", and are aquired thru one, or both parents at conception--although there are mutations that can "skip" generations
The Factor V Leiden that has been discussed on this board from time to time ( it causes hyper-coagulation/thromophilia--sometimes DVT's which can lead to PE's)is a germ-line genetic mutation that passes back thru many, many generation in at least one side of the family tree---as one such example.
Sorry if my above post was hard to read----I guess that's what happens when you post late at night!!
Posts: 468 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
It wasn't your posting late at night, it was my comprehension that was at fault.
Not sure I can buy the bacteria turn into viruses theory. Bacteria can be injected with viral genetic material, as in lysogenic bacteriophages. Bb is known to have this, in fact virulence factors can be transmitted this way.
No one yet seems to be taking tick-transmitted viruses into account. These are known to occur in Ixodes ticks, along with Bb, etc.
As for gene therapy, haven't seen that working very well for anything, so we may be a ways off from help in that direction. The one case of successful therapy for some rare genetic condition was followed by higher rates of cancer in those people. I think the complexity of this is going to make progress slow. And the full extent of consequences might take years to develop and recognize.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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