I just got this from LymeInfo and thought it might be of interest to those of you who post to the newbies to TRUST your LLMD's and DON'T take your health into your OWN hands.
I live here in Wisconsin, and have had to deal with ducks all my life.
SURE am glad I decided, because of lack of money, to NOT seek out a LLMD here in Wisconsin.
NOTE that he was NOT just treating people here in Wisconsin.
Jim. ###
quote:
"Diagnosed and treated patients for Lyme disease based only on results of tests by an unaccredited out-of-state laboratory with a 100 percent positive rate for Lyme disease, and failed to report the alleged Lyme disease cases as required by state law"
Wisconsin medical regulators have revoked the license of James M. Shortt, a West Columbia alternative-medicine doctor, based on a suspension order in South Carolina over treatment of two of his patients who died while in his care.
"When you are indicted on a felony, you expect to have your license revoked," said Ward Bradley, Shortt's attorney. "It's not a surprise."
South Carolina authorities have not revoked Shortt's license. The state's medical licensing board suspended Shortt's license to practice medicine last April.
Jim Knight, spokesman for the state Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation, said his agency has not held a hearing on Shortt's license.
"There are other cases ahead of that one," Knight said. "A hearing will be held at some point ... but the point is that he has been suspended and cannot practice in South Carolina."
Attorney Richard Gergel represents two families who lost relatives who were under Shortt's care.
"It is striking that Wisconsin has acted to revoke the license of Dr. Shortt on the basis of South Carolina patients' records, when our own board has not revoked his license," Gergel said.
The Wisconsin order revoking Shortt's license closely mirrored the South Carolina order temporarily suspending his right to practice here, Gergel said.
"A natural question is what would it take to revoke one's license if this isn't it," he said.
Sen. Larry Martin, R-Greenville, said he was surprised that South Carolina's board of medical examiners had not permanently revoked Shortt's license.
"It doesn't look good that another state beat us to the punch," said Martin, chairman of the Senate Rules Committee. "I wouldn't want him practicing in my neighborhood."
But Martin said he was satisfied that the public had been protected by the board's temporary suspension. "I would think they believe they had it covered."
Shortt was indicted in U.S. District Court last year on 43 counts of violating federal drug and medical laws.
He is scheduled for a hearing in federal district court today. Shortt has agreed with federal prosecutors to plead guilty to one conspiracy count in exchange for dismissal of the other 42 charges. It will be up to the federal judge whether to accept the plea agreement.
In revoking Shortt's medical license, Wisconsin authorities cited nine causes for the revocation, including that he:
* Prescribed testosterone "unlikely to have been prescribed with any legitimate medical justification"
* Prescribed controlled drugs to patients for whom he has not produced records
* Prescribed to men the drugs tamoxifen and clomiphene, hormonal drugs usually prescribed only to women
* Injected patients intravenously with hydrogen peroxide
* Prescribed testosterone to a terminally ill prostate cancer patient
* Diagnosed and treated patients for Lyme disease based only on results of tests by an unaccredited out-of-state laboratory with a 100 percent positive rate for Lyme disease, and failed to report the alleged Lyme disease cases as required by state law
* Assisted a patient in obtaining the illegal substance Laetrile
Shortt has been living in California. Candis Cohen, spokeswoman for the California medical licensing board, said no one named James Shortt is licensed to practice medicine there. She said she could not reveal whether he might have applied for a license because applications are not a public record in California.
Gergel represents the estates of Katherine Bibeau and Michael Bate, who died while under Shortt's care.
The Richland County coroner, in his death certificate, ruled Bibeau's death in March a homicide, caused by hydrogen peroxide in her bloodstream.
A pathologist's autopsy report states: "This unfortunate woman died as (a) direct result of iatrogenic infusion of hydrogen peroxide." Iatrogenic means done by or caused by medical treatment.
No charges have been filed regarding Bibeau's death.
Michael Bate died from prostate cancer six weeks after Shortt prescribed a treatment of testosterone, Gergel said. Modern therapy for prostate cancer is to reduce testosterone levels.
"Giving Mr. Bate testosterone was just like throwing gasoline on a smoldering fire," Gergel said.
Gergel said the Bibeau and Bate families hired him to make sure "no one else dies at the hands of this man."
=== The mission of LymeInfo is to keep you informed of issues that might be of interest to Lyme disease patients. Postings are not meant to imply that we agree with the content of all items we distribute.
unquote. ###
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by JimBoB: Shortt loses Wisconsin license S.C. hasn't taken that action against alternative-medicine doctor
# [/QB]
He was not an LLMD! YES, I trust my LLMD, but I DO know how to THINK, thank you very much!
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
JimBob,
What is your advice or intention here? Are you implying that newbies and patients in general should not seek out or trust their LLMDs? I certainly hope that is not what you are saying.
It appears this doctor did a lot of things that were not good, and mostly not to do with Lyme disease. His crime there was to diagnose it based on a labtest which was from a supposedly questionable lab. That's debatable, I guess.
On the flipside, doctors who do not diagnose Lyme clinically or use labs that 'routinely' hand out negative results when they should be positive, and who do not treat appropriately (sufficiently) should be equally held accountable, but how often does that happen. I'm sure some patients die as a result of that also, and sometimes suicide probably.
Still that would be no reason to not seek out LLMDs with good reputations who come recommended by other patients.
Posted by minimonkey (Member # 8693) on :
JimBob --
Thanks for posting this. There *are* crazies out there, to be sure, who will take advantage of the sick and desperate....perhaps out of malice and greed, perhaps out of misinformation... although I believe that alternative medicine has its place, I also believe in exercising common sense and being one's own advocate before embarking on *any* medical treatment.
That said, I *do* trust my LLNP -- she has studied with the best of the best, and my own extensive research is exactly in line with what she recommends.
BTW -- I'm also doing Buhner's herbs in addition to abx (with my NP's blessing), and they are amazing. I can't believe how much better I feel since adding them in!
Posted by minimonkey (Member # 8693) on :
DLLiver -- you make an excellent point! Wish they would revoke the licenses of all the ducks who refuse to treat Lyme, who fail to report it, who send us to shrinks, etc. The cost of that is likely much higher than the occasional quack-doc out there....
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I agree that it pays to be careful. That said, I would not rely on a news article to report the facts correctly. They are often written with a slant, and many times the "facts" are not correct.
I think anyone who is looking for a LLMD should ask some questions before counting on their expertise. Talk to other patients who are being treated by them. Talk to their office about some of their policies to get a feel for how they diagnose and treat. Most importantly, educate yourself on what is a reasonable approach.
I think it is useful to know if the LLMD is a member of ILAD's. Anyone treating Lyme, who claims to be a LLMD should be very familiar with their material at the least and hopefully plugged into their group in order to exchange information and get advice from the experts if needed.
I feel angry at mainstream medicine too but my opinion is that the majority of health care providers are ill informed due to what I consider to be a cover-up by those who are driven by the desire for power and/or money.
Most are acting in accordance with the standards of their profession. Without some standards, things would be in an even bigger mess.
The people who need to be held accountable are the CDC and the group who are responsible at the IDSA for their role and probably others who are behind the scenes. There is plenty of information to suggest that there are serious conflicts of interest and less than honorable behavior going on.
I am not a medical professional but if I were, I'd be more than a little nervous if I knew about the controversy regarding lyme and decided to get involved. These people are risking their livelihoods to help.
Those that do are angels and deserve as much support as we can give them. Those that don't deserve our attempts to educate them. Many won't listen because they trust the CDC and IDSA and other governing agencies who are giving out the guidelines but some will listen.
Frankly, I've been mistreated by the medical community for years. I'm frustrated and angry but I truely don't feel that the individual doctor deserves to be punished. The ones pulling the strings are the ones that need to be punished and made an example of, so that it is understood that this type of behaviour will not be allowed.
Terry
Posted by Christine202 (Member # 6158) on :
My LLMD has saved my life and I have him to thank beyond any alternative MD's that sucked me dry of thousands of dollars throughout the years....
I have taken this disease and illness into my own hands for 12 years... thats why I am where I am...
I have been through it all...every alternative therapy you can think of......
Yes they do work to some extent but when you have an invasive bateria that you have probably had since you were 11 years old and never got a days worth of treatment until you were 26, herbs just arent going to cut it.......or any natural tretment out there for that matter.
Are they great to use in conjunction with abx? absolutely...
I know you have not had Lyme anywhere near as long or severe as some of us on here so as we have not judged you please dp not judge us for getting a life back in the means we need to do it.....
I am very glad herbs help you....
And I do many things that I feel help me but I will never tell someone on here that the way they are deciding to treatm their Lyme diseas eis wrong just b.c it is not how I am treating mine,,,
Anyway, Hope you have continued sucess on herbs.
Posted by shazdancer (Member # 1436) on :
I followed this story when it first broke in South Carolina. My mom lives there, and she has Lyme.
When I searched here a few years ago for an LLMD for her, Shortt's name never came up. He is not an LLMD. He was never endorsed by the North Carolina LDF. As far as they were concerned, there were no LLMD's in SC.
Shortt is a quack of the worst kind, ripping people off with his limited knowledge of Lyme and other diseases. Some people got relief from his treatments, but others died.
Shaz
Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
Ditto to everythign you said Christine.
It is vital (I think) to have an LLMD who is an ILADS member.
Some of us were ill many years before we knew we had Lyme, and in that time tried every 'natural' thing going to no avail, at a cost too.
DLL
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by shazdancer: When I searched here a few years ago for an LLMD for her, Shortt's name never came up. He is not an LLMD.
Exactly! He's never been on any list I've seen as regards Lyme treatment.
Terry mentioned what I have always stated here, "Find at least 3 happy satisfied customers before making an appointment with a doctor."
Very important! Posted by brentb (Member # 6899) on :
quote:Originally posted by TerryK: That said, I would not rely on a news article to report the facts correctly. They are often written with a slant, and many times the "facts" are not correct.
Terry
ABSOLUTELY!!!
The doctor has been charged with MURDER for giving IV peroxide. This practice is being done to MILLIONS of europeans with very few problems that I'm aware of. How many docs, or for that matter, CEOs for BigPharma are going to be sentenced for murder for giving out vioxx and statins? NEVER trust the press. They never did, and still do not, work for us the people.
Posted by AZURE WISH (Member # 804) on :
Yes I trust my LLMD with all my being. He is probaly the only dr. I have ever trusted in my life.
I have gone against other dr. wishes many times because they were morons...
So what makes my llmd so different than the others....
1. experience dealing with the disease 2. knowledge of the diesease (of meds coinfections symptoms ect) 3. He Listens! Probaly the most important of all
Of course we shouldn't put our faith in any old dr!
In my expereince as a lyme patient I think it is imperative to have a llmd....
If I did not have mine I would be completely paralyzed.....
in so much pain with no hope of it ever stopping.....
and sleeping my life away due to the severity of the fatigue....
and thats just my main symptoms. My health and life would be in a downward spiral if I was not in his care.
... Just my opinion
Best wishes Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
Where do you get the notion that MILLIONS of Europeans are getting Peroxide IV treatment?
Where exactly, and by whom?
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
Jim:
====== Diagnosed and treated patients for Lyme disease based only on results of tests by an unaccredited out-of-state laboratory with a 100 percent positive rate for Lyme disease...
======
Wouldn't this be the lab in Florida that takes photographs of the bacteria?
This part of the allegation doesn't look right to me, as Lyme literate doctors and patients believe this particular lab is doing a good job.
Carol
Posted by brentb (Member # 6899) on :
quote:Originally posted by dontlikeliver: Where do you get the notion that MILLIONS of Europeans are getting Peroxide IV treatment?
Where exactly, and by whom?
Perhaps I should have said millions have tried it. It is very popular here in Texas. "chelox treatment" is doing some great stuff.
The Story Behind The Peroxide Therapy Death In South Carolina Categories Control tactics Oxidative Therapies Practical Health
..."Some 100,000 infusions of the chemical — a refined form of the first-aid kit standby — are given each year across the nation as a treatment for a variety of diseases, according to proponents."...
Thousands die from Vioxx but no homicides are ruled!
...two FDA-approved drugs that Bibeau had previously been prescribed: the MS drug Copaxone and Tegretol, which is used to treat seizure disorders.
Rowen noted that among Copaxone's listed side effects are "metorrhagia (profuse uterine bleeding), thrombosis, bruising, clotting problems, and infections." An Internet site dedicated to Tegretol warns of "easy bruising, or reddish or purplish spots on the skin" as possible "signs of a blood disorder brought on by the drug."
Rowen says it is "more than reasonable to conclude" that the interaction of these two drugs was "the proximate cause of this death."
But any complications from drugs is defended to the hilt. Yet no one seems to see any inconsistencies imagine?
Chris Gupta ------------------
Peroxide therapy leads to a patient's death in South Carolina
January 2, 2005 By ALLEN G. BREED The Associated Press
WEST COLUMBIA, S.C. — When Katherine Bibeau's body arrived at the moorgue, she was covered in large, deep purplish-black bruises.
But the woman had not been beaten, Coroner Gary Watts discovered. Rather, she had bled internally, and massively, after receiving an unconventional treatment for her multiple sclerosis.
Intravenous infusions of hydrogen peroxide, administered by a physician named James Shortt, had produced bubbles in Bibeau's bloodstream that started her down a fatal spiral into multiple organ failure and cardiac arrest, Watts concluded.
The death, he ruled, was a homicide.
This case and the death of another of his infusion patients have put Shortt at the center of a controversy over a treatment that its opponents say has no proven benefits — and serious risks.
Some 100,000 infusions of the chemical — a refined form of the first-aid kit standby — are given each year across the nation as a treatment for a variety of diseases, according to proponents.
Shortt, who is fighting to keep his medical license, denies harming anyone. "I might be the world's greatest lunatic," he says, but "I'm not going to do anything to my patients that I think might hurt them."
At the root of hydrogen peroxide's purported power is the same action that makes it foam when placed on a cut. Proponents of oxidative or "hyperoxygenation" therapy believe that many diseases — including cancer and HIV — can be linked to oxygen deficiency. They say that infusion or evenn ingestion of substances such as hydrogen peroxide, ozone and germanium sesquioxide deliver an "oxidative burst" that can kill cancer cells and viruses, and boost the immune system.
Shortt says he has been a believer since infusion guru Dr. Charles Farr helped him save a lupus patient's blackened toes from amputation.
Shortt says he has administered as many as 1,800 hydrogen peroxide treatments to patients from as far away as Europe, and has seen people in the midst of severe asthma attacks "go from gray to pink" during an infusion.
On a recent day at his clinic, Health Dimensions, patients occupied two of the dozen black leather chaises arranged in a spacious lounge off the waiting room. They watched videos as IV bags of yellowish and clear liquid emptied slowly into veins in their left hands.
Many of his patients, Shortt says, come to him when conventional medicine has run its course.
"We go to work from this point where you're hopeless," the 58-year-old said in a recent telephone interview.
But health experts say injecting hydrogen peroxide directly into the bloodstream can cause convulsions, acute anemia and deadly gas emboli. A 1991 article in the "Journal of Emergency Nursing" blamed the death of a 39-year-old cancer patient on such "cancer quackery."
The American Cancer Society says treating certain tumors directly with hydrogen peroxide "remains an area for responsible research." But as for infusion of the chemical into the bloodstream, there is "no scientific basis for the regimens utilized by the oxymedicine promoters."
In September, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society's Web site posted a "Medical Alert," saying: "Hydrogen peroxide, administered either orally or by intravenous infusion, is not a recommended or approved treatment for multiple sclerosis. ... Dr. Aaron Miller, the National MS Society's Chief Medical Officer, strongly urges people with MS to avoid this unproven and potentially unsafe treatment."
Physicians in Missouri, North Carolina and Tennessee have had their licenses suspended or revoked for giving patients intravenous hydrogen peroxide. In the Tennessee case, the medical board said the physician exhibited "gross malpractice ... and incompetence and ignorance in the course of medical practice."
Katherine Bibeau, a 53-year-old mother of two from Cottage Grove, Minn., was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2001.
The avid knitter, gardener and baker — whom husband, David, has desccribed as "June Cleaver with an attitude" — was a breast cancer surviivor. So when confronted with a degenerative and incurable disease, she embarked on an open-minded search for ways to combat it.
That search led her to Shortt.
"Hydrogen peroxide would be very good to kill whatever's in there," Shortt told her in a February phone call, according to a transcript of the taped consultation. "Because, right now, we don't know what it is."
March 9, 2004, she sat in one of those leather chairs in West Columbia as a 0.03 percent solution of hydrogen peroxide coursed through her veins. That first treatment lasted 90 minutes.
Afterward, Bibeau complained of abdominal pain and nausea, according to a federal lawsuit the family filed against Shortt. Two days later, the suit contends, she returned to Shortt's clinic extremely weak, with bruising at the infusion site and severe vaginal bleeding.
The lawsuit alleges that Shortt ignored these signs of "acute hemolytic crisis" and failed to order a blood work-up for Bibeau, or to refer her to another physician. Shortt, while acknowledging that hydrogen peroxide therapy can destroy red blood cells after repeated treatments, denies those allegations.
By the time she arrived at the emergency room on March 12, Bibeau was in multiple-organ failure. Two days later, she was dead.
In July, a second patient of Shortt's died. Michael Bate, a 66-year-old retired engineer, had advanced prostate cancer.
Bate's wife, Janet, said he received eight hydrogen peroxide infusions, along with other treatments. (Bate also obtained the banned, discredited drug laetrile. Shortt acknowledges showing Bate how to use it after Bate made it clear he intended to do so against Shortt's advice.) In this case, too, the physician has denied doing anything to harm his patient.
In September, armed state and federal officers raided Shortt's office and confiscated his files.
Later that month, the South Carolina Board of Medical Examiners asked a judge for an emergency suspension of Shortt's license.
Seeking support, Shortt traveled to the October conference, in Atlanta, of the International Oxidative Medicine Association, which developed the regimens he used. The group found that Shortt had followed its "well-established" protocols.
In its position paper, the group's president, Dr. Robert Rowen, instead zeroed in on two FDA-approved drugs that Bibeau had previously been prescribed: the MS drug Copaxone and Tegretol, which is used to treat seizure disorders.
Rowen noted that among Copaxone's listed side effects are "metorrhagia (profuse uterine bleeding), thrombosis, bruising, clotting problems, and infections." An Internet site dedicated to Tegretol warns of "easy bruising, or reddish or purplish spots on the skin" as possible "signs of a blood disorder brought on by the drug."
Rowen says it is "more than reasonable to conclude" that the interaction of these two drugs was "the proximate cause of this death."
Shortt says he knew of no reason his treatment would react negatively with the drugs Bibeau was taking. He did not suggest she drop those medications.
Israeli drug company Teva Pharmaceuticals, maker of Copaxone, told The Associated Press that its drug had been "extensively studied and tested clinically ... and has proven safe and effective." Novartis Pharmaceuticals, Tegretol's Swiss-based manufacturer, declined to comment.
Richland County forensic pathologist Clay Nichols says Bibeau had been on both drugs for more than a year "with no adverse effects."
As the investigations go forward, Shortt has voluntarily ceased performing hydrogen peroxide infusions. The South Carolina medical board has scheduled a Jan. 21 hearing to revisit his case.
Coroner Watts stands by his conclusions.
"I don't think he meant to kill her," Watts says. "I'm just saying ... she died as a result of his infusing her with something he shouldn't have infused her with."
Posted by Bothrops (Member # 7393) on :
I will probally upset someone, but... Alternative Docs are not no more of a dr. than I. I would never see one of these people for no reason and I can not believe anyone would!
Posted by Bothrops (Member # 7393) on :
What I would really like to know is what out of state lab did he send blood to for lyme. The lab has 100% positive rate, wow. Everyone else is negitive.
If it is illeagal to send blood to out of state lab, I guess every llmd is guilty of this.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carol in PA: Jim:
====== Diagnosed and treated patients for Lyme disease based only on results of tests by an unaccredited out-of-state laboratory with a 100 percent positive rate for Lyme disease...
======
Wouldn't this be the lab in Florida that takes photographs of the bacteria?
This part of the allegation doesn't look right to me, as Lyme literate doctors and patients believe this particular lab is doing a good job.
Carol
This one, I guess, Bothrops. Never heard of it being illegal to send blood out of state!! sheesh!!
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:
====== Diagnosed and treated patients for Lyme disease based only on results of tests by an unaccredited out-of-state laboratory with a 100 percent positive rate for Lyme disease...
======
Wouldn't this be the lab in Florida that takes photographs of the bacteria?
This part of the allegation doesn't look right to me, as Lyme literate doctors and patients believe this particular lab is doing a good job.
Carol [/qb]
This one, I guess, Bothrops. Never heard of it being illegal to send blood out of state!! sheesh!! [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by MagicAcorn (Member # 8786) on :
* Diagnosed and treated patients for Lyme disease based only on results of tests by an unaccredited out-of-state laboratory with a 100 percent positive rate for Lyme disease, and failed to report the alleged Lyme disease cases as required by state law
Carol in PA - Hi ya! It wasn't that he used the lab that got him in trouble it was that he didn't report the cases to the CDC.
Posted by Andie333 (Member # 7370) on :
Jim,
In answer to your original question, I absolutely trust my LLMD.
She is saving my life, which is more than I can say for any of the 13 mds I saw prior to seeing her.
My LLMD was recommended by people on this board. As others have suggested, I made sure I found someone with at least three people who could vouch for her care.
Lyme and its co-infections (I am now being treated for Bart) are complicated, multi-systemic diseases. If I had to rely on my own ideas for treating myself, I seriously doubt I'd be able to handle it.
My LLMD is risking her medical degree every day; she's definitely my hero as are the other responsible caring physicians and medical profressionals who step forward to treat these diseases.
Andie
Posted by cbb (Member # 788) on :
I want to make it clear. This man was NEVER, EVER considered a LLMD by anyone in the Lyme community.
Just because a person "treats" a few cases of Lyme disease, it does NOT make them a Lyme Literate Medical Doctor. This is a mistake that is made too often.
I'm with the Lyme Disease Network of South Carolina & we have never recommended Dr Shortt. In fact, he was not known as a "Lyme Dr" here in Columbia, in the state or in the Southeast.
I live in Columbia & have followed this story very closely.
The lab used IS a reputable lab for Lyme disease testing.
I talked with the reporter who wrote one of the first articles about this case.
Those who would be considered "local authorities on Lyme disease" do not believe Lyme is a medical problem in South Carolina, so this would affect the opinions expressed when interviewed.
Example- In response to a letter I wrote to the newspaper in 2000, the head of Epidemiology in the State Health Department wrote: "Though Lyme disease results from the bite of infected deer ticks, the Southeastern deer tick prefers to feed on lizards (which do not carry the Lyme disease bacterium), rather than deer."
Research has since shown that lizards in South Carolina do carry the Lyme bacterium.
When I had my hearing checked in 1991, I asked the dr how Lyme affects the ears. He told me: "We don't waste our time studying an illness that we'll see only one bizarre case in a lifetime."
Sadly, the opinions about Lyme disease are basically the same. No improvement in 16 years.
I do not support Dr Shortt. I am not minimizing the things he has done. I am not adding criticism of his practice.
My point is that it is totally inappropriate to use this man, or the articles about him, as a means to destroy anyone's confidence in their real Lyme Literate Med Dr.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Well, monkey, I guess I had several "motives" when I posted this article and my SHORT narrative along with it.
ONE of the things I did NOT consider, was HOW FUN this thread has become in a few hours. WOW! This is KOOL!
However I did have more serious intentions when posting it.
They were/are:
1- to get people to THINK for themselves, NOT depend on another person to do their thinking FOR them, like so many do. Or should I say MOST do!
2-It was sent to me by Lyme Info as they send me many every week, some good and juicy and/or interesting, SOME are not. BUT I religiously read them every single day. Some I read with passion, some I just skim through, and some I wonder, "why the heck did they send THAT".
3-When I read it, I thought of the MANY on this list that knocked me down in the beginning, as a newbie myself, for NOT being able to come up with the thousands of dollars to seek out and patronize an LLMD. AND how MANY of them knocked the HERBS and Buhner's expertise in treating Lyme.
4-AND how many stated how THEY could NEVER think for themselves in treating something as complicated as Lyme disease and would be afraid to even do so. THINKING they may even die.
5-AND how MANY on this list Pooh pooh herbal treatment as "inferior" to antibiotics when it comes to "treating Lyme D.". And how it is "experimental" to use Herbs.
6-And how so, so many have said that they would ONLY trust their LLMD, even IF that LLMD does NOT use OR recommend herbs or other alternative treatments in attacking the Spirochetes, etc..
7-AND how so many have said that they are GLAD for me that I am feeling so much better with the herbs, but insinuated THEY would not consider them for themselves.
8-AND mostly, how it is getting a rise out of people, and getting them to think whether they are FOR or AGAINST one protocol or another. Instead of what I had to say, fall on deaf ears and fizzle in no time.
9-Here was a chance to HELP some who had probably never even heard of any other treatments other than abx. SO they too could have a chance to not have to suffer like so many I have listened to on here and in private emails have.
10-Plus a few other things I can't think of right now, as it is past my bedtime, but I will think of tomorrow.
There you go folks. RIP it apart, have fun with it. I HOPE you do. I won't stop YOU from doing and saying things YOUR way. AND guess what? YOU won't stop me either. THAT is how things get finally DONE.
I am quite an inventor. WHO knows what may come of this in the future.
EVERYBODY think.
Jim Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
Jim,
To imply that others are not thinking if they trust there LLMD is untrue of most and hurtful of many.
Since you are already a "thinking" person perhaps you can add "kind" to your list.
I personally take offense to your inflammatory post.
I am thinking and discriminating in who I allow to treat me. I work together with my LLMD and the alternative professionals (herbalist included) who are helping me heal. We learn from each other ......... to imply otherwise is rude and unkind.
Jim, please think about the effects of what you post before doing so.
Your intended message of "not following along blindly" is a good message and one that needs to be heard ........ the presentation was a bit harsh.
Peace and organic dark choclate, robi
Posted by Gretchen P (Member # 8403) on :
Again I am disillusioned by the personl attacks on this site. I find lyme net very informative and up to date. I do not agree with the attacks some people here choose to take combat with.
This is a SUPPORT site. We are here to support one another. If it weren't for llmds many of us would be dead or severly debilitated. I think opinions should be stated but not pressed.
There are always 3 sides to every story...your side, thier side, and the truth. That is how you have to handle life. Alls we can do is be the best person we were put on this earth to be and help others.
It saddens me that a newbie may come here and read these arguements and turn away from a great site because of bickering. This happens everywehere with all support sites. We need to remember this and try to support each other no matter what our decisions are.
All treaments are not the same and what works for one may not wrok for another. God has made us all different for a reason and we need to respect that. I always say ifyou don;t have anything nice to say....don't say it at all. Peace!
Posted by Michelle M (Member # 7200) on :
You said: "I just got this from LymeInfo and thought it might be of interest to those of you who post to the newbies to TRUST your LLMD's and DON'T take your health into your OWN hands."
I post a lot of responses for newbies because not so long ago I was new myself. A lot of nice people on LymeNet steered me out of my fog, pointed me to a reputable LLMD in my area, and helping others is now what I can do.
When I tell a new person to find and trust their LLMD, that means to NOT trust their duck, who is telling them they don't have Lyme, or that 10 days of abx cured them, or that they have a 'false positive' on their test, or that their symptoms are from something else, etc., etc.
I also tell them to read, read, read, and educate themselves on every aspect of Lyme. So that IS telling newbies to take their health into their own hands! Definitely!
I personally DO trust my LLMD; without him I'd be taking MS drugs while Bb continued to flourish unabated in my brain. He does not know all the answers, we muddle along together trying different treatments. They are hardly getting rich off me; visits are $25 co-pay plus $75 or so for an hour of the pharmacist's time.
Most here are respectful of other's choices as to herbs or other alternative treatments. I regularly refer people to MAP's intelligent postings.
The article about this character -- who isn't even an LLMD or an ILADS doctor -- does not do much to further your arguments against LLMD's or antibiotics.
Good try, though.
Michelle
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michelle M: You said: "I just got this from LymeInfo and thought it might be of interest to those of you who post to the newbies to TRUST your LLMD's and DON'T take your health into your OWN hands."
I post a lot of responses for newbies because not so long ago I was new myself. A lot of nice people on LymeNet steered me out of my fog, pointed me to a reputable LLMD in my area, and helping others is now what I can do.
When I tell a new person to find and trust their LLMD, that means to NOT trust their duck, who is telling them they don't have Lyme, or that 10 days of abx cured them, or that they have a 'false positive' on their test, or that their symptoms are from something else, etc., etc.
I also tell them to read, read, read, and educate themselves on every aspect of Lyme. So that IS telling newbies to take their health into their own hands! Definitely!
I personally DO trust my LLMD; without him I'd be taking MS drugs while Bb continued to flourish unabated in my brain. He does not know all the answers, we muddle along together trying different treatments. They are hardly getting rich off me; visits are $25 co-pay plus $75 or so for an hour of the pharmacist's time.
Most here are respectful of other's choices as to herbs or other alternative treatments. I regularly refer people to MAP's intelligent postings.
The article about this character -- who isn't even an LLMD or an ILADS doctor -- does not do much to further your arguments against LLMD's or antibiotics.
Good try, though.
Michelle
Yep
So you fish Michelle thats great
JimBob Registered: 15 December, 2005 Newbie
treepatrol Registered: 23 June, 2003 Newbie
Michelle M Registered: 19 April, 2005 Newbie
Heck as bad as this Lyme is we are all Newbies it keeps changing.
And if you dont trust your LLMD FIND ONE YOU DO!!
Posted by 5dana8 (Member # 7935) on :
"Do I trust my LLD?"
You bet I do. The man saved my life.
Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
Jim&Bob: You guys have too much time on your hands.
OOoops I meant JIMbob- you have too much time on your hands.
OOoops I meant JimBOB- most people are not on this list "for fun"
Barb
REFERENCED POST said in part: JimBoB Member # 8454 posted 09 March, 2006 04:17 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, monkey, I guess I had several "motives" when I posted this article and my SHORT narrative along with it.
ONE of the things I did NOT consider, was HOW FUN this thread has become in a few hours. WOW! This is KOOL
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
CORRECTION!
Before I go and read what those of you have written after my post at 4:17 this morning, I would LIKE to make a correction in that post.
ONLY in WHO I addressed it to.
I addressed it to MONKEY, however, because I was so tired, I guess I looked the posts wrong, or remembered them wrong and it SHOULD have been addressed to DONTLIKELIVER.
Sorry about that, and my apologies. I know that YOU do see and FEEL the value of herbal treatments.
Sincerely, Jim Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Well, Barb Peck, since YOU made the most mistakes in addressing me, (I think you meant ME), I will reply to You first.
YOU got it WRONG ALL three (3) times.
It IS "JimBoB". It encorporates ALL three of my names. (Therefore the reason for 3 caps in it). Please proofread your posts, it makes it easier for us with Lyme BRAINS to read and understand them.
As far as TIME, we ALL have 24 hours a day. It is OUR choice as to HOW we use them. I take my "sleep time" to post on this group. I got LESS than 4 hours last night. Usually I get 5 hours, sometimes I get as much as 6, (rarely).
I will pay for that 3.75 hours last night, by tonight though. I already am.
Too bad you don't LIKE to have fun. I was that way at one time too.
When this list gets SO dry that it is NO fun anymore, I will be gone from it, cured or not.
THIS is not the ONLY list you know.
THAT being said, loosen up. There IS more to life than being sick and working. Though some days I wonder myself.
Jim. Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
SOME of you are TOTALLY missing the point to my posts.
I say posts, because the FIRST post was mainly JUST to point out WHAT SOME of us have to put up with here in Wisconsin. AND what many others have to put up with in OTHER STATES too.
I also posted it to give a little jab to those, who have in the past, violently TRIED to knock me and others down, ON THIS LIST, who are relegated to having to go it semi-alone. Because of lack of available funds for now and in the forseeable future. OR for other reasons.
NOTICE that I said SEMI-alone.
I have relished the many good friendships AND also the much, much knowledge I have gained since joining this group back in early NOVEMBER of 2005. Plus what I have learned elsewhere. IT was overwhelming in the beginning, but not now.
KNOWLEDGE is POWER.
I have joined this group TWICE. Add 52 posts to my total. I was really a "newbie" the first time. BUT, I learn fast. MAYBE because I "have too much time on my hands"?!?!
The FUN part I reported in my later post, was ALL the chuckles I got reading what SOME of you wrote in your defense.
More to follow.
Jim Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
My Dearest Robi:
I meant absolutely NO offense to YOU personally.
IF you are one of the people in this world who actually THINK for themselves, I commend you VERY highly.
YOU are a pillar of your community.
THAT is NOT the case with the MAJORITY though. Sorry, sad but TRUE!
MOST people just follow the group. THAT is WHY we are in such trouble in this sea of mankind. Most people are just treading water. NO direction in MIND. Follow the leader, as it were.
I follow also, WHEN it is appropriate. However I am finding that the older I get, the tougher it is to really FIND a GOOD leader or leaders.
We surely can't look to the government to lead us. Not unless we want to fall off the cliff WITH THEM. Can we?
We can't look to CDC to take the appropriate lead in HELPING us to make the correct decisions. Can we?
We can't look to the ducks of this world for help beyond prescription writing, and I SURE wouldn't TRUST THEM to do it right in THAT department either. OR Diagnose. Can We?
SO, THAT brings us to the LLMD's of this world. Far be it from me to say they are all wrong. WHY? Because I do not believe it. There ARE some that TRY to do a good job. SOME even do.
BUT, do MOST have a true handle on it? I personally doubt it from what I have read here and elsewhere.
BUT don't take MY word for it. Check it out yourself. There really are a few good ones out there. YOU find them, I cannot afford to. Maybe YOU can't afford NOT to. YOU CHOOSE for youself.
Jim
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Gretchen:
Sorry you aren't UP to a little jousting now and again.
Maybe you could join the Walgreen's group where everyone is already "perfect". Then No one will have to listen to "bickering" as you put it.
I HATE bickering myself. My parents did it all the time. YET they loved each other, AND were there for each other RIGHT TO THE END.
My wife is a person who does NOT like to bicker either. However, she LOVES to joust. AND will purposely "pick" someone other to root for than me; whether it be football, NASCAR racing, American Idol, or WHATEVER, just to add SPICE to our life.
But IF that doesn't work for you, I guess maybe it is best that you don't read what "I" post, then you can be sure to NOT be offended. Well, at least till someone else like ME comes along.
Gee, do you think this world could possibly take two people like ME?
Jim Posted by minimonkey (Member # 8693) on :
Thanks for the correction, JimBoB -- and also for being the one who alerted me to the herbal protocol in the first place -- I'm finding it a mightily helpful part of my treatment.
Posted by liz28 (Member # 4946) on :
JimBob, I haven't really been following this argument until now, because hey, to each his or her own.
But FYI, I lost four years going to LLMDs who gave me the wrong antibiotics. In both cases, they knew it. I got away because I finally started reading Lymenet and doing my own research, and asking for the antibiotics everyone else was on--you should have seen the look on my last LLMD's face when I requested levaquin, after two years of being told I did not have co-infections. It told me everything I needed to know. And I certainly wasn't the only one. The Internet changed everything.
That said, I was on my deathbed when I went to my first LLMD, and if I'd done my research sooner, I'd probably have gotten the right antibiotics by requesting them during the first few visits. I'm in remission from Lyme and bartonella because of antibiotics, I have babesia which is barely being held back by antibiotics, and if I were to go off them for more than a month, that would be it. I've tried various herbs of all kinds. There's nothing like being disabled to rapidly prove or disprove a theory faster than any verbal argument.
People use this board for all sorts of reasons. But I view it as the Lyme equivalent of an online board for cancer, not an alternative community where we scrap it up over conspiracy theories. Because you don't NEED a conspiracy theory. Nature is powerful enough to create Lyme disease on its own. If you came down with bubonic plague, you probably would modify your opinion of antibiotics. You are fortunate to have the luxury of time with which to argue about this. There are many people here who are permanently disabled or dying.
And I can vouch for Robi, she's the real deal. She can think for herself without anyone's approval.
Posted by brentb (Member # 6899) on :
quote:Originally posted by liz28: There's nothing like being disabled to rapidly prove or disprove a theory faster than any verbal argument.
I was left on my own to die because after years of high dose gent/vanc I still couldn't kick it. Luckily I found a Curad bandaid with silver to cure a MRSA infection from the line. I've been on high dose various brands of silver which have extended my life 3 maybe 4 years. It's not a conspiracy, VA hospitals and African countries are purchasing ASAP silver to consume. There's a reason. I'm here for the same reason, to help those who are disabled and dying to recover.
Posted by brentb (Member # 6899) on :
Liz I'm not attacking at all. I understand perfectly where you are coming from and I think you have noble intentions. hope you feel the same Posted by Christine202 (Member # 6158) on :
It must be nice to have had the luxury of living out your life just as you ever imagined it...and to have fullfilled whatever dream, or at least had the chance to do so....
It truly angers me that people are so ignorant...
I think those who judge have never been in a place in their life health wise where they have been TRULY challenged.
Try being ill since 11 years old... Being bedridden and moaning in a ball throughout your 20's going from dr to dr... Spending all your money on alternative MD's as well...Having your family and Husband researching their butts off and taking months off at a time from work to get me to Dr's and alternative treatment facilities as I only got sicker and sicker and was about to lose my life at the age of 26....
Then to finally get to a good LLMD who literally saved my life with antibitotics.....
I lost everything up unitl that point ... I didn tget to finish College...didnt get to have children..didnt get to travel, didnt get to laugh and enjoy the little things in life...didnt even get to see my own family...spent all holidays in my bedroom in the greatest agony I have ever felt.....
I dont think you have ever been there Jim...
And you never will.....
so how dare you write that we need to THINK
I have tirelessly pursued every single avenue and still do for health.... I am a go getter and always will be.....My mother and husband used to have to hold me up and walk me or carry me to the car so I could travel to get to different specialists.....
one thing I am not is judgemental..
Illness taught me a great lesson... to be humble... To realize I will never know the answer to everything.... and that I will never throw out opinions and judgements onto others...
But like I said...that only came with suffering the way I did.....
You seem to have a mild case of Lyme that you caught fairly early on...and I am very happy for that...last thing we need is another person suffering....
But remmeber there are families with children AND sick parents out there with Lyme who have no health insurance and no one to treat them...and for them to read a post saying that they need to start thinking for themselves... thats very insulting... maybe its just me....
I just had to post this ...I couldnt let it go... but now I will...
Posted by Christine202 (Member # 6158) on :
BTW I am not talking about the article about the Dr who was under fire.... He sounds like a quack.. I am talking about the overall feeling that has come across in this post.
Posted by liz28 (Member # 4946) on :
Brent, where do you get these ideas of people being huffy on Lymenet? Oh... wait a minute...
Hey, if silver gets you there, more power to you. And there SHOULD be a curaid band-aid for every ailment. By all means, apply for some Gates funding and develop this curaid idea. Especially after putting up with what you described as "gent/vanc" Lyme treatment. What the heck is that? That's from a zillion years ago. No wonder you're upset.
My favorite quackmobile Lyme treatment was an ozone machine you stick up your... I mean, gently introduce to your posterior regions, where you release an oxygen bubble that travels through your system killing Lyme. The sophisticated inner workings of its delicate assembly required a mighty high price tag.
By all means, share your experience so people are freer to choose. Two of the best products I take are Zhang's liver herbs and artemisinin. We need a LOT more ideas on here, just so long as they don't mind being kicked around a bit.
Hey, Christine! Have you read Laura Hillenbrand's book "Seabuiscuit?" She was completely disabled with fever when she wrote it, and it's so beautiful, you will leap out of bed (and then be forced to go back ) with inspiration.
She got sick in college, her husband and family were the only people who would help her, all her doctors ignored her, and she spent her twenties and early thirties in bed, counting it a good day if she could sit up. Then she wrote this #1 bestseller starring Toby MacGuire.
Never underestimate the power of dreams to sneak into your life.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Man I just LOVE this thread. IT is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.
When I just read Christines latest post I laughed and laughed and laughed. It was SO funny.
Sorry, Christine202, I just couldn't help myself.
You wrote it sooooo funny. I guess maybe you wrote it because I didn't address YOUR first post and did others. I really was going to but there were so many posts, and I have Sooooooo much to do TRYING to fulfull my wife's dream of a new house by working every minute I can on it between my 15 minute rests, that I can't get to everything. I only get to work about 10 to 30 minutes at a time and then have to rest. Does THAT sound like I am CURED???
BUT, I WILL try to address your posts either at the end of this one or on the next one. Okay? I don't mean to slight anyone, just happens sometimes. Maybe you can understand what it is like to have a Lyme brain???????
MiniMonkey: You are very welcome. Hope you continue to have good results on your abx/herbal protocol. Keep us posted please. We sure need it, it helps to quench the naysayers just a little.
Liz: I agreed with a lot of your post of 3-9, 8:57 pm. The first paragraphs, just go to prove what I and many have said all along. And YOU trusted your LLMD's at least at one point, I am sure. MY point was, DON'T just trust. BLIND FAITH is useless, MOST of the time.
Make it an EDUCATED faith.
THAT is what I have been trying to get across from the beginning. And I am either not wording it right, or we just have some birdbrains who are just trying to confuse everyone.
THanks for your posts.
Also the second one, posted on 3-09, at 11:50 pm. Where you brought out the great story about Laura Hillenbrand. I had read that before, but forgot it. (My wife wouldn't have, she is a HUGE Seabiscuit fan).
It goes to show that EVEN IF we are deadly sick, IF we can do anything at all, we can still dream. AND IF that dream is strong enough, we CAN bring it to fruition.
You see THAT is the kind of guy I am, MOST of the time. There are ALWAYS setbacks and I will NEVER reach the conclusion of SOME of my dreams, but it is still fun to dream and TRY!
That gets me to Christines202 answer. YOU HAVE NO idea WHAT I have been through, to be sure. Check my next post, I don't want to contaminate this "nice" one with what will be necessary and just confuse some more Lyme brains.
I WILL get to you Christine, never fear.
Jim IS here. Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Dear Christine202:
(The rest of you don't have to read this IF you don't want to, but it needs to be said, okay?). ###
I will interject MY thoughts in among yours, HAChristine, so we can ALL see what I am referring to easier. MY thoughts will follow YOUR quote in each case. ###
Posted by Chrisine202 on 3-09-2006 at 10:41 p.m..
Quote:
It must be nice to have had the luxury of living out your life just as you ever imagined it...and to have fullfilled whatever dream, or at least had the chance to do so.... ##
Christine, WHAT EVER gave YOU the idea that "I" have fullfulled WHATEVER dream or even had the CHANCE to do so, AND without setbacks or total blocks? EVER? ###
It truly angers me that people are so ignorant... ## IT is NOT good to be angry, Christine, and PLEASE remember, that every time you point a finger three more are pointing back at you. ###
I think those who judge have never been in a place in their life health wise where they have been TRULY challenged. ## SO WHY are YOU judging right now? Listen to yourself! Glad you said that was just YOUR opinion. ###
Try being ill since 11 years old... Being bedridden and moaning in a ball throughout your 20's going from dr to dr... Spending all your money on alternative MD's as well...Having your family and Husband researching their butts off and taking months off at a time from work to get me to Dr's and alternative treatment facilities as I only got sicker and sicker and was about to lose my life at the age of 26....
## I am sorry that YOU had to be sick when you were young. BUT WHAT ever gave YOU the idea that YOU are SO unique?
I spent almost half of my early life in hospitals, (in isolation wards, for most of it). I was even in the hospital for two weeks with measels.
I am glad you got to at least live till age 11 without any BIG problems. I was NOT THAT fortunate. You see, "I" got POLIO when I was only six, yes 6, years old. DO you think THAT was easy. Yes, I was more fortunate than many who died from it. BUT it left me with MANY physical problems that have caused me plenty of suffering for many more years than you. ALL the rest of my life to be accurate.
YES, I have a "game" leg from it. IT is shorter, smaller diameter and weaker. Because of this, I got MANY other painful problems later in life. I mean later than 6 years old. (Including severe back problems).
HOW about when I was 18 years old, JUST out of High School, (couldn't afford college), got a decent job in a newpaper, then had a bad car accident that put me in traction for 6 weeks. Then a cast on, and in the hospital for another week. Then in a cast for almost three more months after that?
DID that stop me? Not hardly. I couldn't STAND laying around home, even though my parents were good enough to take me back in during that time. So WHAT did I do, I got off my duff and suffered the pain of walking two miles each each way, each and every day on crutches to and from work and had to work with one crutch, at least, but WORKED with and THROUGH the pain. This was two months before the doc said I would get my cast off, (HE said it would be about 4 months or more).
Even with all that pain, I got the cast off about three weeks early. This was a full leg cast which I could NOT walk on, as I snapped my leg off JUST above the knee. Oh, yes, I had many, many stitches all over my body and head from the cuts from being thrown through the windshield. NO seatbelts back then. AND I was in a coma for two weeks. I came to once in awhile, but passed right out again from the pain. (Oh yes, like you, a couple of the nurses didn't like me. I don't know why, do you? :?) Actually I had a lot of fun with MOST of the others.)
Do you want me to go on and on, how I smashed my left heel, (that dang game leg again), when I jumped from the second story without shoes or socks onto a frozen rockhard ground on December 1st, when our house was burning up? This was just after I had dropped my young son into the hands of a telephone lineman on the ground, but turned around and the fire was already in my bedroom, so couldn't stick around. I still have great difficulty walking because of the pain with EVERY step that I take. DO you think THAT was a great holiday? (It wasn't, and I only celebrated ONE more holiday after that). I was older than you then, I was about 26 and one half then.
OR when I sprained that game leg a couple of times, or sprained the right ankle once and broke the right leg once. Or broke my shoulder blade, or broke my finger, sprained my shoulder. Most of this all happening in my teens and twenties. Or some surgeries in my thirties.
Do you want me to go on and tell you about all the pain I have had spending 13 days in the hospital and nearly dying because they sent me home too fast because I had no insurance or money to pay them. That was back in 1994, when I had to have my colon removed. About 7 feet of it in July, but had to have a second operation in November to take out the last 8 inches of rectum and anus, because I nearly died before going into hospital the first time, by bleeding internally, and being treated for diverticulitis instead of acute chronic colitis by my local DUCK. (I couldn't even afford him).
I felt so bad, I told the surgeon to just let me die IF he couldn't cure me. Well, he DID. Cure me that is. With a knife. SO I am still here today, to write about it, though I wonder IF it would be YOUR dream to have to carry your crap for the rest of YOUR life, whatever that may be, in a bag ON your belly. AND there are plenty of problems with that too. Burning skin, etc.. You STILL think I don't know about pain and suffering?
I could go on and on, with a WHOLE lot more, but IF anyone is reading this, they will start getting bored IF they aren't already. HOPEFULLY even YOU will get the drift. ###
Then to finally get to a good LLMD who literally saved my life with antibitotics.....
I lost everything up unitl that point ... I didn tget to finish College...didnt get to have children..didnt get to travel, didnt get to laugh and enjoy the little things in life...didnt even get to see my own family...spent all holidays in my bedroom in the greatest agony I have ever felt.....
I dont think you have ever been there Jim...
And you never will.....
so how dare you write that we need to THINK
## I DARE to write we need to THINK, because IF you have ever read any of my previous posts, you would KNOW what I HAVE been through.
DO YOU STILL THINK YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH MORE THAN I HAVE? IF SO, I WILL GIVE YOU A FEW MORE PAGES OF WHAT I HAVE GONE THROUGH AND AM STILL GOING THROUGH, EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE.
Sorry for all the CAPS folks, SOME people don't listen even when you SHOUT it at them. ###
I have tirelessly pursued every single avenue and still do for health.... I am a go getter and always will be.....My mother and husband used to have to hold me up and walk me or carry me to the car so I could travel to get to different specialists.....
one thing I am not is judgemental.. ## HA! Christine, THIS is where I REALLY laughed.
GO back and read YOUR parts of this post. GIVE ME A BREAK. WHO is MORE judgemental than YOU? WHO? There MAY be a couple on this board who are, but not many, IMHO. ###
Illness taught me a great lesson... to be humble... ## DO you know WHAT the word even means Christine? It means to be "teachable". It is plain YOUR mind is made up already. ###
To realize I will never know the answer to everything.... and that I will never throw out opinions and judgements onto others... ## Christine, THAT is exactly WHAT you have done in this whole post of yours. READ IT! My god child, do you expect ANYONE to believe that from reading YOUR post?
There, CHristine, don't feel neglected now. I didn't MEAN to slight you by any means. IF you have any further questions, why not PM me, so others don't have to go through all this?
Sincerely, Jim- Posted by tequeslady (Member # 6832) on :
Jim:
What's your intent here? To incite riot? To upset a lot of people? Because if it is... Mission Accomplished.
Do you think that's a great prescription for people that are already on the edge dealing with their illness?
Different protocols help different people. When you first came to LymeNet, it appeared as if you were calling anyone stupid that didn't follow Buhner's book. After awhile, you started seeing that Lyme is more complex than just a few herbs.
You, by your own admission, admit that you are not well. So, you are not privy to the "secret knowledge" of how to cure lyme disease.
I know you don't go to an LLMD, but why belittle those that do? Are you angry because you cannot afford to go or what?
Posted by brentb (Member # 6899) on :
quote:Originally posted by liz28: Brent, where do you get these ideas of people being huffy on Lymenet? Oh... wait a minute...
Huffy? I have no idea what you are talking about. gent/vanc means gentamycin and vancomycin. Can't get stronger than that and it still wasn't enough to keep me alive. However this is way beyond my annecdotal report. Current uses of silver technology are 1)new catheters which emit silver ions which prevent hospital aquired infections 2)bone cement is now made with silver nanoparticles to eliminate infection 3) bandages and salves are used with silver to erradicate MRSA and other abx resistant organism 4) in vivo testing is already being done on africans and va hospital patients with great results. 5) Female silver nanotech condoms which prevent the spread of STD like borrelia. Even Dr. Burgdorfer stated that MSP kills borrelia.
To me this is good news and not quackery. The reader can make up their own mind.
[ 10. March 2006, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: brentb ]
Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
JImbob, JIM&BOB JJJJJJJJJimB:
Your statements listed below is exactly what cranks people up. (as if you don't know).
Like I said before- you have too much time on your hands.
B.
REFERENCED POST: JIM BOB wrote in Part:
"Man I just LOVE this thread. IT is more fun than a barrel of monkeys. When I just read Christines latest post I laughed and laughed and laughed. It was SO funny. Sorry, Christine202, I just couldn't help myself."
Posted by robi (Member # 5547) on :
This thread has been reported to the admin of this board.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
"Man I just LOVE this thread. IT is more fun than a barrel of monkeys. When I just read Christines latest post I laughed and laughed and laughed. It was SO funny. Sorry, Christine202, I just couldn't help myself."
That really was despicable! Posted by dontlikeliver (Member # 4749) on :
I'm not going to bothered going through all the posts because I'm sure the stress will do me no good.
But, I have to say that yes, of course, we should all think. And we do, I'm sure.
However, it is equally 'ignorant' and non-thinking to think that those of us who have chosen the conventional path did so because of lack of thinking.
How about that many of us spent years doing the herbs, the homeopathy, the acupuncture, the osteopathy, the vitamins, the diet, the myers cocktails, the this and the that! And, guess what - it did not work for this condition/these conditions! (not my case). I sought out the best practitioner in every field, so it wasn't lack of recommendation, etc.
So, some of us have ALREADY come full circle, have already been where you are, and it did not solve our problems.
Differentn strokes for different folks!
Therefore, having chosen the conventional path, and an LLMD that comes recommended from other happy customers - most of us trust them. I trust mine. Not because I'm naive, but because he is the most sincere and knowledgeable so far.
Posted by Lou B (Member # 64) on :
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LymeNet has the right to change these rules at any time without prior notice. ================================================= Although some of the posts in this Topic thread may "push the envelope", I don't find any specific violations of the LymeNet Flash TOS/rules.
Posted by Lou B (Member # 64) on :
Well now ... getting quiet here ... no posts in this Topic thread for the past 7+ hours BUT my inbox sure has logged a few complaints. So, after you all get done beating up on one another, you hand it off to me to clean up the mess ... I'm just thrilled ... wonderful!
Why don't you all beat up on the source ... Lyme Info.
Lyme Info is the website that broadcast the article JimBoB posted.
Lyme Info is the website that contains the following statement specifically disparaging the LymeNet Flash and the Lyme Info webmaster has ignored repeated requests remove or reword the disparaging statement that follows:
WARNING: At some of the forums such as the Lymenet FLASH, dissenting opinions can be censored. As a result you will not be able to receive balanced information to make informed decisions, and you will not know that useful info has been deleted without apparent cause. There are also members who benefit from the sales of questionable products.
You can find the above statement in the Lyme Info Tick-Borne Illness Directory at: http://www.lymeinfo.net/directory.html Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
GADS!
Posted by Gretchen P (Member # 8403) on :
All I can say is *sigh*
Too much energy wasted on one thought that turned in to 1,000 thoughts. I think JimBoB got what he wanted debate,debate,debate.
*sigh* I just don't have the energy, and I feel i am a fortunate lymie that has energy Posted by Lou B (Member # 64) on :
OK, now I'm going to say something really smartass ... I'm the Moderator and you're not! OK, now laugh ... come on, tell me that wasn't funny?
Hey, there's really serious stuff, like life and death ... then there's all these other things that if we all would let them go by would be forgotten in a few hours or at most a few days ... it ain't that important ... let it go. OK?
Now let's all get "totally gob-smacked" (whatever that means) and double over laughing!
[ 11. March 2006, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Lou B ]
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
Gobsmacked: Adjective Definition: flabbergasted, astounded, shocked; also written gob-smacked. Etymology: from gob "mouth" + smacked "clapping hand over in surprise"
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Hey, Lou, YOU are too Kool!
Keep up the good work, and it will all work out in the long run, despite what SOME think or say.
This will fade, just like all other posts on this group have. ###
Teaques Lady:
I believe I have heard from you before, on another thread, haven't I?
Yes, MY mission HAS been accomplished. I at least have people THINKING. THAT is the main thing. I realize some will NEVER think properly, but it is NOT my job to change the world. But to help humble minded people. People who can see beyond their noses.
Many small minds will actually HATE me for this thread, but many others will THINK about all this and after awhile; and as things come to pass, will say, you know, THAT was a good thing. It got me to . . . .. OR It got me to . . . .. Etc., etc..
My job is to get MYSELF cured AND to help at least a few others along the way. Kind of like GiGi does, only in MY way.
HEY, I got 10 times more action on THIS thread than I have on any other. THAT has been a dream of mine. When I have seen so many "serious" threads just dwindle for lack of interest, except by a select few.
We sure got to see a different "side" of some here, compared to other threads where they have made me want to almost throw-up because of their sugar coated, nicey, nicey, unreal, over-sweet posts, that really didn't accomplish anything to find the CURE for this disease. Nor any real comfort for those suffering from pain, etc..
BUT you know, I didn't start the CONTROVERSY. I ONLY posted what Lyme Info had sent me, as they do almost every day, something that has to do with Lyme Disease in some way. I imagine most of you get this in your emails, correct?
IF not WHY not? ###
Quote by TequesLady:
Different protocols help different people. When you first came to LymeNet, it appeared as if you were calling anyone stupid that didn't follow Buhner's book. After awhile, you started seeing that Lyme is more complex than just a few herbs. ##
I am glad you said "appeared", because I NEVER said that, not even in so many words. TO the contrary: I just said that it was a great book, and I will STILL stand by that. HE has great knowledge of herbs, and I and you didn't. I NOW have a much better knowledge of them, and I am sure in a few months I will have even more. HOW ABOUT YOU? Have YOU grown?
Do you even KNOW WHEN I came to LymeNet? THIS is my second account on here.
With all that in mind, I am Still of the humble opinion that herbs are the main protocol to follow IF you want to get well. I am NOT against antibiotics per se as SOME have insinuated on here.
HOWEVER, from my OWN personal experience and in dealing with many on this list by private PM's, I have discovered that HERBS are like a "miracle" in HOW FAST you feel Sooooooooo much better. Especially as compared to the antibiotics that "I" have used.
AND IF you cannot believe that, so be it. Your loss, not mine. Just please do not TRY to stifle MY healing, NOR the healing of others, by telling them that herbs do NOT do the job. Because they DO. IF taken properly, in the right combinations, and amounts. (Protocol), for MOST people.
And it IS recommended by some, even Dr. K., to take some antibiotics along with the herbs for different symptoms, along with many other treatments. I am not following HIS particular protocol, since I can't go to Washington to see him; but his treating does look pretty good from what I have read. And look how he helped GiGi get "cured". Oh, and by the way, he even displays some of Buhner's recommendations on his website.
I also started this thread like I said, just to pass on a piece of PUBLIC information that was passed on to me, so in case SOME of you do NOT get the LymeInfo emails, delivered free to your computer, then you all could see WHAT SOME of the so called professionals have done and are doing in the "name" of "treating" our diseases.
I trust NO ONE, not even myself. Because as the Bible says: "Let God be found true, though every man (woman) be found a liar, . . . . .. (Romans 3:4)
I do MY best to tell the truth, ALL the time, however I too make mistakes as I am NOT perfect, yet, either, just like you are not either. There fore we ALL are liars at one time or another, even if unintentionally. WHY, because WE ALL make mistakes.
And NO, Teaques Lady, I am NOT angry because I can't go to an LLMD. I am finally relieved; as I stated when I first posted, because I COULD have gotten someone LIKE him, or maybe even HIM. Ugh!
NO, to the contrary, it forced me to THINK for myself and to find a surpassing way to get better.
And I HAVE. As opposed to one that posted here. MUCH better. NOT perfect, NOT cured, YET. NOT 100%, probably never will be. I got this disease over 6 years ago, I can't go BACK 6 years and feel like I did before I got the LymeD. I, just like ALL of you am getting older. Crap happens. WE are ALL in a dying state from conception; though it is mostly up hill to about age 18, but all downhill after that.
I will STILL have arthritus even AFTER I get rid of the Lyme. I will probably STILL have asthma, AFTER I get rid of the Lyme. I will STILL have all my aches and pains from all my broken bones, and Polio, etc., AFTER I get rid of the Lyme.
THAT is Life as WE know it. When the "New System" comes, then I HOPE to be able to be "perfect" in every way, IF I am fortunate enough to be selected to be there.
One thing I will say, is that it has been fun sparring with SOME of you. Some I never even answered to for one reason or another. BUT I am sure I am very accurate when I say, you are all thinking more these days, AND you probably had the MOST excitement you have had for a long time.
Take care of yourselves, be humble, learn what is NEW out there, that really WORKS.
Be close minded and you will suffer even more, for much longer. Lighten up, and don't let the "System" run YOU.
YOU run the system!
As ever, yours,
Jim Posted by brentb (Member # 6899) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lou B: [b]WARNING: At some of the forums such as the Lymenet FLASH, dissenting opinions can be censored.
Not from what I've seen and this thread is proof. Appreciate the hard work and integrity Lou.
As for this nonsense above anything I can do (hopefully I speak for all of us) just let me know.
If anyone is on any other group hopefully you can pass the word that freespeech is alive and well at Lymenet and perhaps whats going on is that this Lymeinfo site is not exactly thrilled with that fact. dunno but it's incorrect
[ 11. March 2006, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: brentb ]
Posted by Bothrops (Member # 7393) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gretchen P: All I can say is *sigh*
Too much energy wasted on one thought that turned in to 1,000 thoughts. I think JimBoB got what he wanted debate,debate,debate.
*sigh* I just don't have the energy, and I feel i am a fortunate lymie that has energy
I dont think JimBoB wanted debate, I think he was venting about the Dr. in discussion. There seems to be a lot of sceemers and scamers in our world today and it pisses people like myself off to read such a story. Venting is the only way to get release! What makes us free is our right to say what is on our mind, if you dont like was is being discussed all it takes is one click of the mouse.
Some people here really need to lighten up, and when you see someone is venting dont add fuel to the fire or it will end up a debate.
Who really wanted the debate?
Posted by Bothrops (Member # 7393) on :
I guess I should read everything before I post, maybe JimBoB was not venting, regardless, people here really need to lighten up a bit.
Hey JimBoB how open-minded are you? What if that God you speak about does not exsist.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
bothrops:
I only was reporting what I got in my email from LymInfo who ONLY does the same. IT is NOT a group like LymeNet is. I orginally THOUGHT it was part of LymeNet, but I guess it is NOT.
As far as the GOD thing. I don't think YOU want to go there. I have an athiest wife, who is unfortunately MISINFORMED about HOW all this got here too, and I feel sorry for her. But lack of true information and pride keep a LOT of people from ever reaching the truth.
I am about as open minded AS you can get. I have studied it all for well over 30 years, seriously. And longer than that on a part time, casual basis.
IF you want to get INTO it, PM me. Debating THAT is not appropriate here on this MEDICAL thread.
THAT being said, I have proven beyond any doubt that HE does exist. It doesn't take too many brains to see that. Just look around you. And THINK.
Jim
Posted by Bothrops (Member # 7393) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimBoB: [QB] bothrops:
"As far as the GOD thing. I don't think YOU want to go there. I have an athiest wife, who is unfortunately MISINFORMED about HOW all this got here too, and I feel sorry for her."
Dude, How can you say that and at the same time say you are open minded.
Maybe one day, if you are lucky, they will ban science from are schools. There is no way I would debate this issue with you.
No hard feelings though, like you I am sick and in need of friends so hopefully you wont hold that against me. Many religious people tend to hold grudges and are very unforgiving. Go figure.
If I do PM you it will be about your progress.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
Bothrops:
I have included YOUR last post and will answer after YOUR paragraph to make it easier, IMO, to know what each is talking about. Jim. ###
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimBoB: [QB] bothrops:
"As far as the GOD thing. I don't think YOU want to go there. I have an athiest wife, who is unfortunately MISINFORMED about HOW all this got here too, and I feel sorry for her."
Dude, How can you say that and at the same time say you are open minded. ## THAT is real easy, since I used to be an agnostic myself, until I spent over 30 years studying and proving, completely, that HE not only exists, but is alive and well. I am open minded, in that I WILL listen to what someones views are, as long as they are reasonable AND not JUST for the sake of argument. AND then they are OPEN to reasoning on what can or cannot possibly be.
WHEN we have proven something to ourself, WHY reprove it over and over again. THAT is NOT necessary, normally. ###
Maybe one day, if you are lucky, they will ban science from are schools. There is no way I would debate this issue with you. ## I don't believe in LUCK. WE make our own luck. That being said, they have already banned "science" from our schools. They have ALSO banned free thinking IMHO. ###
No hard feelings though, like you I am sick and in need of friends so hopefully you wont hold that against me. Many religious people tend to hold grudges and are very unforgiving. Go figure. ## I hear you on the "religious" thing. But THAT is because THEY are NOT "TRUE" Christians. IF they hold grudges and are unforgiving, they are either some off the wall religion, OR Christians in "name only". Either way, NOT my kind of people. But I tolerate them best I can. What goes around, comes around, as the old saying goes. ###
If I do PM you it will be about your progress. ## Sounds like a plan. ###
Take care of yourself. You only have one body, and please watch your liver and gut. Not easy to replace those either.
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That's from a zillion years ago. No wonder you're upset.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I mean, gently introduce to your posterior regions, where you release an oxygen bubble that travels through your system killing Lyme. The sophisticated inner workings of its delicate assembly required a mighty high price tag.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) with inspiration. ![[tsk]](graemlins/tsk.gif)
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