[ 05. May 2006, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Dave6002 ]
Posted by Thereminator (Member # 8324) on :
Pictures...? Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Sorry. I was too upset to post the pictures. I'll do later.
Posted by AlisonP (Member # 7771) on :
Dave,
This is really amazingly important information. I can't thank you enough for doing all that and then sharing it here.
I'm a bit stunned here as well with your findings, because they make me wonder about a lot of things now....especially abx.
Stunned.....wow.
Thanks again,
Alison
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Alison,
I agree with you about abx. It's the abx thing that most disturbed me today.
I have been on abx (high dose of Doxy, Ketek, Amoxicilin, Biaxin) for about four months.
And I thought they had killed them all except those in deep tissues and in cyst form.
I was wrong.
What's the next step?
IV high dose of abx would be a efficent way?
Posted by Thereminator (Member # 8324) on :
Could the ABX be driving them into the bloodstream? Remember four mounths is 1/3 the (general)estimated time required for extermination. Thanks for telling us about your micro-adventures! Alan
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Alan, you are welcome.
It's a good thinking. I didn't realize that Bbs are different.
They did look less active (sick?).
I would like to check again in the future, maybe from this we could judge therapy efficency.
Take care
Posted by psano (Member # 7785) on :
How long were you ill before beginning your abx? Four months of abx doesn't seem that long to me, esp if you were ill for a long time, i.e., years.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Well ---
this is just me, but I had a Bradford reading, live blood video just after a finger prick..
at something like a zillion magnification..
and there were all kinds of things swimming around in my blood that weren't supposed to be there. Some identifiable, some not. While I did not see the long, angel hair like floating Bb spirochete, I did have the 'string of pearls' --
and moreover lots of wierd looking 'swimmers', abnormally shaped RBC's and various blob like UFO's. I had things looking like they were trying to get inside WBC's and RBC's as well.
This was after well over a year of IV, various orals in combination, lots of Babesia TX and also while I was on yeast drugs (Duflucan). I was still on all of this when I had the reading done.
I could swear I saw some of them give me the finger as they swam by.
Some of the 'blobs' were definitely yeast.
I believe we should have this technology in play throughout diagnosis and treatment. It seems the most simple and verifiable tracking method to my mind. You can't deny what's in plain view.
Mo
Posted by ChrisBtheLymie (Member # 8916) on :
Dave - told you they are easier than you thought
It makes you kind of sick looking at them doesn't it? The way they slowly swim around, yuck!
Did you use your own microscope or what? Do you know what magnification it was?
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Hi, psano,
That's true.
But I expected that several months of abx would have cleared up Bb in the blood.
I had been thinking that long time abx were dealing Bb in deep tissues that abx hard to reach not in the blood.
Mo, I have read your another message. According others, Bbs have many forms. The moving dots probably are granulated Bbs.
For seeing spirochete, you need watch very carefully for a long time at same spot.
Probably why a lot of people missed spirochetes in the blood. I missed before.
I am seeing this is the quickest,most convenient and economic way for diagnosis and monitering therapy.
If somebody have money to donate, why don't we set up our lab to push on this direction for our life.
I am sure many on this board are very intelligent,some have PhD drgree.
Chris,
I read your previous message, but sorry, I didn't pay much attention. You guys were right.
Yes, very yucky and ugly, making more sick.
I don't have a microscope.
The magnificance is 1000X with oil objective and a video camera connected to a computer monitor.
2000X or 3000X could be better.
But you need watch very carefully and patiently at the same spot. I missed them at beginning.
Posted by Goody Tooshooz (Member # 9061) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dave6002: Ignex genomic/plasmid PCR sucks failed to detect Bbs, even there are plenty of Bb there.
Hi Dave
I am glad you had success looking for borrelia under darkfield. I don't think this necessarily means that Igenex' PCR is no good. Igenex lab probably do the best Borrelia burgdorferi PCR currently available anywhere in the west.
But I and others are wondering if many Lymies might actually be infected with a borrelia other than burgdorferi? After all, borrelia lonestari, which causes a Lyme-like illness, even EM rash, is not a burgdorferi. It would not show up on Bb PCR because it is genetically too different. And it does not grow in BSK medium. Maybe zillions of other borrelia dont either, yet still cause a "Lyme-like illness".
That would also explain some of the seronegativity.
It's also interesting that many of the darkfield sightings of Bb, whether in spiral form or "string of pearls", granules etc, they seem to be coming out of red cells (or going into them!) I wonder if this is very typical of Lymies. And if we have enough borrelia clinging to the membranes of our red cells, would it interfere with the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide? That might explain some of the terrible fatigue, maybe,after all it's the oxygen we need to burn glucose for energy. And maybe we get this with no anemia showing up, because you still have a reasonable number of red cells and hemoglobin?
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
Goody
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Wow.
It is my understanding that darfield microscopy is considered something that docs use in medical school, and then forget about in the "real world".
Seems like the "real world" is revealed through a darkfield microscope.
I saw "swimmers" in my blood, too, about 3 years ago - done by an "alternative" practitioner. When I asked my medical doc about it, he said that the sample must have gotten contaminated when the sample was taken. Yeah, right.
Tracy
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
quote: I don't think this necessarily means that Igenex' PCR is no good.
I agree, my statement might not be correct, cuz I don't know what primers they use.
However, my Western blot test is CDC positive but the genomic and plasmid PCR are negative from the same blood sample i sent them when I was sickest (I assume that the Bb levels in the blood would be much higher than now after several months of abx).
If primers is a problem, that's should be easy to resolve. The complete genomic sequences for several Borrelia species are already available, we can compare them and select primers that are very conserved and unlikely to be missed by recombination during chronical infection.
You are sure that the ketes come out/in red blood cells. They are surpposed to infect white blood cells. But you explanation make sense.
My red blood cells seem lined together and are too much (compensation? like you said ketes interfere with the red blood cell function. I did have high level of hemoglobin, 16, but i still feel air hunger) I felt that's not normal, but don't know.
Truthfinder, a good name. We need seeing them, culturing them, and test therapies on them like what's the best abx or combination to kill them.
Posted by Carol in PA (Member # 5338) on :
Dave, You said, "My red blood cells seem lined together..."
Did you mean that they look "stacked up," like a stack of coins?
If so, this may be hypercoagulation.
I noticed this when I looked at my blood under a microscope. I've been taking Wobenzym for a year now; maybe I should examine my blood again.
Carol
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Hi, Carol, Yes to your question.
Then what causes hypercoagulation and what Wobenzym for.
Thanks
Posted by psano (Member # 7785) on :
Dave,
Can you imagine how thick Bb must have been in your blood before you started abx? Maybe our bodies are so overwhelmed initially, that at the doses of abx we take, there's simply not enough drug in the body to kill all of them, and that's why there are still others left alive to continue multiplying.
Before abx, they might have almost been "holding hands", or doing a conga line through our veins.
That's my theory.
Patti
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Patti,
I thought so. The abx definitely worked cuz my symptoms improved a lot.
However, still a mystery, if we had overwelming keets in our blood, why our immune system not activated as in other infections? Why white blood cell levels not raised and no fevers (I never had a fever).
Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
WARNING. Looks may be decieving
I have looked at those pictures also but they leave a lot of questions. The one that I have the most trouble with is the motion of the "spirocette". I just does not look right. It actually looks more like a thermally induced movement due to the high intensity lighting needed for the dark fieled observation.
I don't disagree with bacteria being in the RBC's but the pictures caputured on the video does not appear to be what spirocettes look like when they move normally. Also they appear attached to the RBC. Perhaps they are cell fragments of some sort.
The only way to confirm what is happeing is to kill the "spirocette" using UV light and see if it still moves. This could be done on the slide using a short wavelenght UV light source (disinfection lamp). The UV would kill the bacteria but leave it intact (in theory). This would allow a before and after image.
The microspy option is different for babesia and bartonella type diseases as these are readily seen on the RBC after staining (and before in some cases)
Thes are my thoughs, for what it is worth.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
That's interesting, David..
I should note re my blood - most of what I saw I believe were other than spirochetes.. (except for the 'string of pearls' thing)
The 'swimmers' were most disturbing, and way, way too tiny to be any form of spirochete or 'bleb' IMO. These were so minute compared to the giant looking RBC's. They swam like sperm -- and hey, my life wasn't exiting enough at the time to attribute it to that
Seriously -- ...and each varied organism had a different pattern/speed of movement that was consistant with one another, and different from the other 'types'. I will also note that these paterns, behaviors did not change over the 45 minutes time spent looking at the live video feed of the slide under the scope.
Some RBC's definitely had 'stuff' stuck to their sides, tho... and most of the blood cells and fluid did not look or behave at all the way 'healthy blood' should. RBC's and WBC's looked misformed, stuck together, or just plain 'sick'. Then there were blob clusters (not food particles) of either yeast, Mycoplasmas or Immune Complexes. (??) The swimmers and floaters are another story.
This was a Bradford reading, not darkfeild. Finger prick, immediately make slide, and immediate 'live' view inder a high powered scope with a small light.
Bradford was there, and various things would appear and I would shout "What the H@LL is that?!!!!!"
(all I knew at the time was something of what blood should look like)
Many he did not know, or he speculated on. He is no TBD expert, at least not at the time. In any event the whole experience got me thinking differently about all of this. That was two years ago, I think.
Some people's blood was let to sit an hour or two..and even more bazarre things started to happen - what looked like organisms leaving dying cells - but I can't really speculate on that.. we didn't do that with mine.
Mo
Posted by James H (Member # 6380) on :
It is easy to assume that everything swimming around is Bb, but it is a little more complex than that. A classic 'textbook' coiled spirochete is an unlikely sight in human blood. Instead, there are CWD variant forms, which are hard to tell apart form those of other pathogens. I don't think anyone knows what some of them are, or which are the pathogenic ones.
It doesn't seem possible to rid oneself of these with any known antibiotics, or if that would be a good idea if you could.
Here is a 50 minute video showing some of the things you are discussing through an advanced microscope, the Ergonom 500.
In this video they are being linked to cancer, so they are not thought to be friendly by the author. Enjoy!
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
quote:there are CWD variant forms
Lyme brain cannot read what "CWD" mean. Who can expand it? Thanks.
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
CWD = Cell Wall Deficient
Thanks for the film James... wow..
Incredible. They are discussing in part that 'string of pearls' we saw..but calling that a developed parasitic microbe form found in the blood of Cancer patients. --- and also the idea that in healthy blood you would see the very, very small forms of microbes, but when diseased, sick, or cancer, they say -- is when you see the larger 'parasitic' form of microbes go through stages of develpment.
This should be a primary test in any patient IMO..even tho they cannot probably identify the microbes, you can at least see something is wrong, or better yet a pre-illness state.. or to follow progress.
Mo
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
quote:CWD = Cell Wall Deficient
To my opinion, keets probably are basically CWD. If they had cell wall like other bacteria, they couldn't move, cuz rigid cell wall would decease the flexibility of the two membranes that Bb depends on for its movement.
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
quote:CWD = Cell Wall Deficient
To my opinion, keets probably are basically CWD. If they had cell wall like other bacteria, they couldn't move, cuz rigid cell wall would decease the flexibility of the two membranes that Bb depends on for its movement.
Instead, Bb has more than 145 genes involved in lipid metabolism.
Probably this is why has a strong ability to change its identity back and forth: Spirochic form; CWD, granulated, cysts.
Targeting the lipid metabolism may be potentially a highly atractive therapeutic developmental tread.
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
Posted by James H (Member # 6380) on :
They (the Keets) seem to be Cell Wall Deficient when they inside us.
The only time they seem to be in classic spirochete form is in cultures where they are posing for photographs that are to go in the Duck textbooks.
(Actually they are probably also found as spirochetes in ticks, and in ACUTE stage human infections.)
The video really isn't naming the infective organisms as a particular species. It is hard to identify an exact species visually. Their point is that the numbers and the large gotesque shapes indicate there is a problem. They would be found in healthy people too, but would stay under control in their bodies.
Of course they are also showcasing their microscope, which is truly awsome.
Posted by Andromeda13 (Member # 8314) on :
Hi Dave 1097, Hope you don't mind me asking, but it sounds like you have some experience of looking at blood. Is this so? And were the samples from ill people?
I've only seen my own blood and the few videos that have recently been done on the net. I was quite concerned at the amount of debris and what looked like fibrin in my own blood; it definitely didn't look healthy. Have you seen this and is it worse in Lyme patients?
My spirochetes seemed to be wiggling around a lot and some were attached to RBCs. Some of the fibrin made me think it looked like dead spiros or empty spiros perhaps, but it probably was just fibrin. Although one of the old microbiologists, on Marie Kroun's website, I think it was Leishman, did describe empty-looking filamentous objects which he thought were dead chetes.
Two of my spiros were lying crossed over each other, in a big "X" shape; I wonder what they were up to?
Anyway, this is all so important for the whole world, so keep it up you microscope pioneers! Best wishes, Andromeda
Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
Andro -
Did you check out the film James posted?
Posted by Andromeda13 (Member # 8314) on :
Hi Mo,
I didn't check out that video because I've only got a very slow internet connection. It would take me about 40 mins to download it, and it's nearly, well, its past my bedtime!
I wish I had acess to a microscope with dark field, there are so many people in this small town where I live that are ill with Chronic Fatigue syndrome or ME as we call it in the UK.
Everyone I ask knows someone with ME or Fibromyalgia. At a garden party/barbecue last year, where there were about 50 people, the topic of ME came up and it turned out 5 people there had it, with one person saying his 2 nieces had both got it as well, although they weren't there. One woman was in a wheel chair.
I know there's definitely a lot of people who would provide some interesting blood. Two of my near neighbours have ME, one of them used to work in a zoo, and the other has had horses and dogs since a child. She had a tick on her head when she was 3 years old. By the time she was 5, she had ulcerated legs behind her knees, and has been ill with more typical Lyme symptoms for many years. None of the doctors here will even let her have an ELISA, because the disease just isn't recognised. And she won't afford any private tests because she believes the ignorant doctors who say that Lyme only lasts for a few weeks! BTW, her mum has MS. Just imagine if I could get her to let me look at her blood. Her children are ill as well, not terribly, but one is on constant meds for migraine, and the other has behavioural problems and is overweight.
oops, have rambled off the topic. BW, Andromeda
Posted by duke77 (Member # 5051) on :
quote: But I and others are wondering if many Lymies might actually be infected with a borrelia other than burgdorferi? After all, borrelia lonestari, which causes a Lyme-like illness, even EM rash, is not a burgdorferi. It would not show up on Bb PCR because it is genetically too different. And it does not grow in BSK medium. Maybe zillions of other borrelia dont either, yet still cause a "Lyme-like illness".
According to Dr. Harris at Igenex this is only correct with the total chromosomal dna test. The plasmid test is for OSPA or outer surface protein A which is only present in one kind of spirochete; borrelia, all borrelia strains. He went on to say that the plasmid test was more conclusive to him then the chromosomal because of those facts. I had lots of questions after my positive PCR.
Posted by siggy (Member # 8654) on :
long time since someone posted. Just wondering if anybody know something about bloodcells here?
I had my blood microscopied, and it shows plenty of red blood cells looking spikey. a bit like underwater-mines. Spooky!
Posted by ChrisBtheLymie (Member # 8916) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda13: Hi Mo,
I didn't check out that video because I've only got a very slow internet connection. It would take me about 40 mins to download it, and it's nearly, well, its past my bedtime!
I wish I had acess to a microscope with dark field, there are so many people in this small town where I live that are ill with Chronic Fatigue syndrome or ME as we call it in the UK.
Everyone I ask knows someone with ME or Fibromyalgia. At a garden party/barbecue last year, where there were about 50 people, the topic of ME came up and it turned out 5 people there had it, with one person saying his 2 nieces had both got it as well, although they weren't there. One woman was in a wheel chair.
I know there's definitely a lot of people who would provide some interesting blood. Two of my near neighbours have ME, one of them used to work in a zoo, and the other has had horses and dogs since a child. She had a tick on her head when she was 3 years old. By the time she was 5, she had ulcerated legs behind her knees, and has been ill with more typical Lyme symptoms for many years. None of the doctors here will even let her have an ELISA, because the disease just isn't recognised. And she won't afford any private tests because she believes the ignorant doctors who say that Lyme only lasts for a few weeks! BTW, her mum has MS. Just imagine if I could get her to let me look at her blood. Her children are ill as well, not terribly, but one is on constant meds for migraine, and the other has behavioural problems and is overweight.
oops, have rambled off the topic. BW, Andromeda
I know It is so frustrating. I have actualy persuaded one of my old 'M.E' friends to get tested with Dr. W, this will be interesting as he has many Lyme disease symptoms.
I wish I knew the true figure in the UK, everyone is getting diagnosed with M.E thesedays!
This is what my doctor done to see the little critters.
"So what happened next was a decision to leave the blood overnight and see what happened, and when that happened, you got everything - you got the growth into spirochaetes, but it's not spiral, and this is very important to get across. It's more like a sidewinder snake. The corkscrew is culture Borrelia, not in vivo Borrelia. Just a bit again about pleomorphism - there are 3 forms of Borrelia: normal (seen in serum), the spirochetes (spheroblasts) and the cyst form. And I call another form 'transitional' as it is changing from one form to another -because I've seen it and I have to call it something. Now how do I know it's Borrelia? Well, it's exactly the same as I've seen in sero-positive Lyme patients with fluorescent antibody detection.
[Shows a slide] This is from a drop of blood left overnight and these have emerged out of the blood cells. And I've got a video showing them emerge, which is really mind-blowing stuff. [Shows another slide] This is spirochetes entwined with blebs - sidewinder spirochetes. I have watched these for hours and hours and hours. I've seen them grow from a peanut to a dumbbell to a 20-30 microns to 400 microns - these are extreme pleomorphic forms. Artifacts don't do that - they don't grow, they don't change shape, they don't develop internal structures, that are reproducible. But this doesn't happen in the body, because this is extreme pleomorphism because the blood is under a slide and there is low oxygen."
So he leaves the blood overnight..
[ 05. May 2006, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: ChrisBtheLymie ]
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Go the cholesterol lowering drug route if you must follow the "traditional" pathways.
The following is, IMO, risky, but...
"For an even greater cholesterol-lowering effect, your doctor may prescribe Lipitor along with a different kind of lipid-lowering drug such as Questran or Colestid.
"Cholesterol absorption inhibitor-plus-statin combination. The combination drug ezetimibe/simvastatin (Vytorin) decreases both absorption of dietary cholesterol in your small intestine and production of cholesterol in your liver."
However, when you no longer see any critters via that microscope, you still will have to restore the depleted nutrients to truly regain your health. Very important! The symptoms are nutrient deficient symptoms.
Dave...you said, "Targeting the lipid metabolism may be potentially a highly atractive therapeutic developmental tread."...
YEP! That's what I've been saying...INactivate HMG CoA reductase and shut down cholesterol production in the liver. High doses of the statins/arbs do this, but so does high doses of Mg! (Documented).
Long time ago...Tincup said to pay attention to RDW...red blood cell distribution width (look closely at your CBC)...how far apart the red blood cells are. She guessed it was a sign of babesia (further apart,if I remember correctly). Bb does not favor iron. It grows much slower in an iron rich medium.
"It turns out that the degree of supercoiling is determined by the temperature: at the lower temperature of ticks, B burgdorferi DNA is more supercoiled, and the OspC gene is expressed at only a low level.
By contrast, at the higher temperatures seen in mammals, DNA is less supercoiled, and the OspC gene is expressed at higher levels. The next step for Dr. Samuels' team is to determine what is affecting expression of the other 2 surface protein genes."
Re: testing. Antibodies...we are trying to count HEALTHY antibodies...most are not healthy and likely won't be "counted". Our antibodies, specific to Bb are damaged, Fab portion, due to Mg deficiency. Documented. This is why testing is inaccurate, I believe.
This bugger likes/needs/wants (for starters) Zn and Mn,Se, and choline and...
Too little choline, too little zinc, too little manganese, too little selenium...we respond by fighting with magnesium, Vitamin E and A (and likely C), so those drop too.
A nutritional nightmare.
[ 05. May 2006, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by lymemomtooo (Member # 5396) on :
If I ever win the lottery, I am going to get some of you in the same room for a few days..I think you will get to the bottom of all of this.. and find a good diagnostic tool and perhaps a cure..lymemomtooo
Posted by Dave6002 (Member # 9064) on :
quote:This bugger likes/needs/wants (for starters) Zn and Mn,Se, and choline and...
Too little choline, too little zinc, too little manganese, too little selenium...we respond by fighting with magnesium, Vitamin E and A (and likely C), so those drop too.
A nutritional nightmare.
Marnie, you are right.
My hair analysis results show that the levels of Cobalt, Copper, Magnesium, Maganese and Phosphorus are low, but that of Boron is high.
Still have to figure out what this means and need time to digest what your said.
Posted by siggy (Member # 8654) on :
another try:
Has anybody seen, in a microscope, that the RBC have little spikes coming out of them? It is plenty in my blood and someone else�s that are also fighting to get both a diagnosis and treatment for lyme.
what info I find on the net about it has left me understanding it is not good at all, but I can�t find out what it actually means.
anybody got any idea?
Posted by dcook60 (Member # 5579) on :
i have seen the spikes. i have them. EVERYONE HAS THEM. this is simply an indication that the red blood cells are drying up on the slide......
i used to work in hematology, many long years ago. i haven't forgotten this. many snake-oil salespeople count on non-medical people's ignorance of certain basics.
disagree if you like! i like discussion. dianne
Posted by siggy (Member # 8654) on :
I don�t think I am in a very good position to disagree, as I don�t have a clue about blood.
But I will give it a shot anyway
I have seen pictures of the RBC drying - the spikes seem to be "one- dimentional" and seen around the edges of the RBC. While the spikes in my blood are seen as dark dots on top and around the edges. They seem to be more of a "three-dimentional" character.
If you want to, I can post a picture of it?
Posted by siggy (Member # 8654) on :
Here is a link to a site where I have shown some of the videos taken of my blood. It is interesting to watch.
![[rant]](graemlins/rant.gif)
Darkfield microscope working: the enemies are in the blood!!!! after long time abx therapy.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[bow]](graemlins/bow.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[kiss]](graemlins/kissing.gif)
![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
It is so frustrating. I have actualy persuaded one of my old 'M.E' friends to get tested with Dr. W, this will be interesting as he has many Lyme disease symptoms.