I understand from the various posts that Band 41 can be any spirochete--not just lyme. Okay, what kind of a spirochete might it be? Assuming my young daughter doesn't have syphilis, what other spirochete might be getting its tail caught in the WB wringer?
Posted by henson2 (Member # 463) on :
Hi,
I'm too close to falling into bed to copy it out now, but the first chapter in Buhner's book, "Healing Lyme," provides a comprehensive and impressive-sounding list of the many types of Borrelia there are. (I have no financial stake in this book).
I don't have it in front of me, and I only recently skimmed it, and can't remember if some of them are more likely to be found in Europe or other countries.
It did surprise me that there were so many types.
There is also a now-retired physician from NIH who used to treat his patients for Lyme if they had only Band 41. But his colleagues would not.
I would be interested in overlap of antibiotic efficacy for the different types of Borrelia.
Anyway, do start with Buhner's book if you're looking for a list of them.
Anyone else with the book handy, copy it in if you get a chance! Otherwise I'll try to return when I am less sleepy.
Warmest good wishes for your daughter's improvement! I assume you are seeing a Lyme Literate Dr.?
[ 20. June 2006, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: henson2 ]
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
Band 41 is also shared by Bartonella, a Flagella.
Posted by david1097 (Member # 3662) on :
The problem is that almost all bacteria have a flagela and depending on what you read and who wrote it, the 41 Kda band may or may not be specific for spirocete flagella. My understanding from the research I have read is that any flagela will light up the 41 band.
This leaves a LOT of possibilities. If you are one who beleive that it is only a spirocete flagelin that causes this there are also MANY. There are common stomach in fections as well as mouth infections that can cause this. Remeber that the IgG only indicates past EXPOSURE AND NOT NECASSARILY ACTIVE disease, so it could have been an infection that was just starting and then got wiped out by the immunue system.
In either case, a solitary 41 band and nothing else showing does not hold a lot of weight with most Dr's due to this no specific nature. In one study a very large faction of the randomly selected population have a visible 41 band but were entirely healthy.
Thats all I can say, i hope it helps.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Looks like the site has some useful information. However, I was immediately turned off by the graphic photos which seemed unrelated to Lyme disease. Quite disgusting and something that they should warn you about before it appears.
Posted by henson2 (Member # 463) on :
Scott,
I edited the message to take out the site. I had no idea - I have rec'd info about the site but had not looked at it in about 3 years. (I am assuming you're talking about the website I mentioned?)
If so, many apologies! Has been removed.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Yale's Erol Fikrig and Richard Flavell own a patent for an early and accurate test for Lyme under US patent number 5,618,533 (application date, Dec 10, 1993). The accuracy of Fikrig's early and accurate test for Lyme was 17/18 cases detected, or 94.4% accurate.
United States Patent 5,618,533 Flavell , et al. April 8, 1997
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Flagellin-based polypeptides for the diagnosis of lyme disease
Abstract Diagnostic means and methods for Lyme disease comprising B. burgdorferi flagellin polypeptides and antibodies. Compositions and methods comprising neuroborreliosis-associated antigens useful for the detection, treatment and prevention of neuroborreliosis, arthritis, carditis and other manifestations of Lyme disease.
More: 41K patents Posted by henson2 (Member # 463) on :
HI jbiral,
Have a look at NewDurham's thread on "translating this study into English." There is a study there about B. duttoni, another kind of Borrelia, with some info about other Borrelia species.
Warmest good wishes for your daughter to feel better soon! (If she is a teenager, does she know about Lyme Warriors?"
Posted by henson2 (Member # 463) on :
Treepatrol,
These are great links to the Band 41 test patents.
Thank you! Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by henson2: Treepatrol,
These are great links to the Band 41 test patents.
Thank you!
Your Welcome Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
Serodiagnosis of Lyme disease is hampered by low specificity of the standard assays currently used. The Western immunoblot has therefore been proposed as a potential confirmatory test. For the present report, the method was evaluated by testing sera from patients with clinically defined early- and late-stage borreliosis. In early-stage borreliosis, the 41,000-molecular-weight flagellin protein (41K) of Borrelia burgdorferi was the major antigen detected by antibodies in sera, but the specificity of the reaction pattern was dependent on the intensity of the band. The evaluation of different interpretation rules based on a semiquantitative record of band intensities showed the highest specificity (96%) and a corresponding sensitivity of 78% if there was at least one distinct (optical density range, 0.2 to 0.4) immunoglobulin G and immunoglobulin M reaction with the 41K band.
Take notice of this but they were always accompanied by a 41K band, which was in most of these cases the strongest among the bands. Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
up
Posted by metasequoia (Member # 9325) on :
I spoke with Dr. Nick Harris about the significance of band 41 a couple of days ago...
He said that 50% of the population would test positive for band 41, he also added that we have so many organisms within our bodies that have flagella, that band 41 is not a relaible diagnostic tool for Bb.
He also stated that bands 58 & 66 were not indicative of Bb.
Posted by mceline (Member # 9235) on :
This band 41 thing has me confused.
My test showed only one band - 41 - as showing reactivity. And it it wasn't "screaming positive"....it was actually under the CDC's" cutoff, as to what they consider positive. I know we aren't putting stock in the CDC guidelines....I only mention this to indicate where it was at.
My LLMD said that he would still consider this Lyme, and treat aggressively.....but then I read entries like the one from "metasequoia" which said:
"I spoke with Dr. Nick Harris about the significance of band 41 a couple of days ago...
He said that 50% of the population would test positive for band 41, he also added that we have so many organisms within our bodies that have flagella, that band 41 is not a relaible diagnostic tool for Bb."
These contradictions from respected folks in the field of treating lyme, cause me great confusion.
I would be interested to hear other members thoughts on this..............
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
With NO other Bb specific bands or even INDs and no co-infection tests positive and a normal CD57 test, I would then question Lyme and look for differential diagnosis. If any of the others are true, then that is more information towards the Lyme diagnosis. I do not think that treatment with band 41 alone is a good indicator BUT don't forget that Lyme is a clinical diagnosis. So your symptoms, exposures to ticks, bulls-eye rashes, etc. would all come into play when deciding...
Posted by susiecv (Member # 9702) on :
Do a search in medical (link above on top right of page) for band 41-You will find much more info to further confuse you I also had results of only band 41 positive-
Glad you found someone willing to treat you- Sue
Posted by lpkayak (Member # 5230) on :
igenex sent out a memo to doc offices about this. they say "41kDA is a marker for disease, but not specifically Lyme." they go on to recommend how to rule out other diseases.
the paper is titled:
NEW Lyme Western Blot (IgG and IgM) Specificity Study Data
November 2006
i can't type the whole thing here-but they are great when you call them. maybe someone can get it emailed to them and post it---many have been interested in this on a post i started a while ago
Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
Here's an excellent 2002 paper for you guys. The full paper is available.
"A European Multicenter Study of Immunoblotting in Serodiagnosis of Lyme Borreliosis "
Although I know from my friends on EuroLyme- they have a worse time getting treated than we do.
Band 41K is crossreacrtive- but all the tests require that it be there- why? beats me.. I do'nt think anyone has a really good answer.
Barb
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Things to make you go Hmmmmm......
My dd's WB results:
1st WB - Quest +41 IGG, +23 IGM (23=Bb specific)
2nd WB - MDL - +41 IGG, +41 IGM.
I see a laundry list of symptoms but, having Lyme myself, I am Lyme-paranoid. PedDuck won't treat yet. We're repeating bloodwork again. I wonder what it will be next time......
Did I mention that she also had a tick bite?
I agree diagnosis should be based on symptoms, possibility of exposure, etc... My husband is very afraid that she'll be treated for something she doesn't have. He will need very convincing proof.
A repeat of the test might help you feel more comfortable if it comes out "more positive". However if your child should be clinically diagnosed, I would not put any stock in a "less positive" result.
If only we had better tests! Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
AFter my initial MDL positive PCR in 2002 - I've been western blotted every year at Igenex.
I've expressed every band except band 37 and 22 at one time or another (even a ++ on Band 39) but I have never had enough positive bands at the same time to be CDC positive.
Plus I think I have the European strain azfelii- anyway and band 58 kDa is significant for that strain.
I really don't understand why they can't get their testing under control. There is a patent- and I think it's held by the father son and holy ghosts of Lyme- that tests for a SPECIFIC protein within the flagella that's supposed to distinguish and be specific for Lyme (basically taking a part of band 41- and looking at it more closely).
The technology's out there for a specific test - I just don't understand why it's not used. Barb
Posted by northstar (Member # 7911) on :
I found this table/summary of bands. It appears to be a European site:
Northstar
Posted by cantgiveupyet (Member # 8165) on :
I often wonder why I test positive for band 41 with Igenex, but never do at Quest or MDL.
There has to be some bacteria that would make band 41 turn positive with the other labs.
my one LLMD would run band 41 every month....still no positives at quest.
So if many have bacteria that would make band 41 positive, why doesnt quest report this.
I know, I know, quest is horrible....but i still find this a bit puzzling. Posted by bpeck (Member # 3235) on :
Cantgiveupyet:
There can be a couple of reasons.. But, I bet it has to do with intensity level.
None of these labs are standardized - so it could be that - or something else entirely.
You'd have to know a whole lot more than we do about their tests and methods.
Barb
Posted by jasonsmith (Member # 10914) on :
This is interesting...
I tested negative for Lyme via ELISA.
I tested negative for Lyme via Western Blot as I only had the 41k band.
But... I tested positive for Lyme via C6 Peptide.
I also tested positive for Babesia Microti.
These tests were done by MDL. What do you guys make of these results?
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
I was reading this again: homogeneous Means this {Homology in biology: structures are said to be homologous if they are alike because of shared ancestry.
In conclusion, we have mapped the human humoral response to the 41-kDa antigen of B. burgdorferi and found it to be remarkably homogeneous {=alike} among different patients exhibiting both neurological and other manifestations of Lyme disease.
This region is not homologous {=not alike} to any region of other bacterial flagellins and may therefore be useful for specific Lyme disease testing. We have not, however, mapped the epitopes used in the serological response to the flagellar antigen in early Lyme disease. The reactivity of sera from patients with early Lyme disease to the immunodominant regions identified here will be the subject of a future study.
Great link! Thanks Northstar! I found this tidbit in the WB description of bands:
Flagellin intensity will help the differential diagnosis: the band is usually faint (1 point on our scale) in the normal population and more intense (2 points) in case of EM or even stronger (3 points) in case of neuroborreliosis.
The same remark applies to OspC. OspC bands on our blots are often very intense as the VS102 strain strongly express this protein.
It seems the intensity of the bands is important in diagnosis. Do LabCorp or Quest even report intensity??????
Posted by mceline (Member # 9235) on :
All of the information here is much appreciated. It is still very confusing to me...but I'm getting there.......
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