Do any of you feel better a few hours after you have some blood drawn?
Well, I noticed this as far back as the 90s when I was being tested for everything but Lyme.
Ever have those days when you just feel ``toxic''?
I'm just wondering if we aren't missing something important here.
People with hemachromatosis have a pint of blood removed as often as once a week which removes the excess or ``toxic'' load of iron that their bodies cannot process. This is standard procedure, so let us assume for a moment that for most people, the removal of a maximum of this much blood should not cause any additional problems.
Bb is a slow-growing organism. I believe it reproduces every 7-22 hours, depending on the environment. I think our bodies can produce new blood a lot faster than that. Brand new blood, free of toxins and bugs.
The subject of many discussions here is about ``detoxing'' and how to chelate and get rid of the toxins and heavy metals still circulating in our blood and tissues.
Eventually, all Lyme bugs have to come out of our cells simply because our cells die and replace themselves. As I recall, I think every cell in our bodies gets replaced at least once every 18 months.
So, again as a theoretical, could we actually reduce the bug load - and perhaps more importantly, the TOXINS - from our systems by routine ``bloodletting'' over a period of 18 months or so?
Okay, I'm sure at least half of you are convinced I've gone completely off my rocker here, but hear me out.
Here's what is strange: bloodletting seems to be making a comeback, and not necessarily in places you would expect.
``Traditional Therapies Make a Comeback'' - August 2004: (This is an interesting article. It even talks about radon gas being used as therapy for 800 years in Japan, and how low dose radiation seems to stimulate DNA repair. Anyway....) http://tinyurl.com/okv4c
quote:Today, bloodletting ......... is also being practiced at Harvard Medical School and Johns Hopkins Medical Center, two of the most prestigious medical centers in the world.
Lewis R. Weintraub, MD, of Boston University, says: ``Despite its archaic origins and its general condemnation only a few decades ago, `bleeding'remains once of medicine's most important tools.''
Obviously, bloodletting is nothing new. But what I did not realize is that some of the more astute practitioners back in the 1800s figured out that bloodletting was detrimental for many diseases, but at least one meticulous clinical practitioner DID find merit in using bloodletting for INFLAMMATORY diseases.
And what is Lyme Disease? A multi-dimensional, inflammatory disease.
quote: ``If anything be settled in the treatment of disease, it is that bloodletting is useful in the class of diseases called inflammatory........''
The most famous application of Louis's "numerical method" was in the study of the value of bloodletting for treating inflammatory diseases.
While physicians no longer perform bloodletting for inflammatory disease (although leaches are still used today to relieve venous congestion after microvascular free flap surgery), some researchers estimate that nearly 30% of the diagnostic tests and therapeutic interventions performed today have little possibility of providing benefit to the patient. The use of the numerical method can help identify worthwhile tests and treatments.
quote:Bloodletting also stimulates the spleen to produce antitoxic substances which helps to stimulate the immune system. Toxins are neutralized enabling radical cures in many blood born disorders.
(This article also says that ``bloodletting..... is an illegal procedure within the United States'', although obviously not in the medical world for certain purposes.)
I think it is a given that no drug company will be funding any research on this treatment in the near future. I just wonder if any Lyme research groups have thought of this?
What do you guys think? (Right. I'll make that psychotherapy appointment right now while its fresh in my mind.)
Tracy
P.S. Oh, I found this and thought it deserved some recognition. We'll call it ``The Evolution of Medicine'':
2000 BC Here, eat this root
1000 AD That root is heathen. Here, say this prayer.
1850 AD That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion.
1920 AD That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this pill.
1945 AD That pill is ineffective. Here, take this penicillin.
1955 AD Oops! Bugs mutated. Here, take this tetracycline.
1960-1999 AD Oops!...39 more times. Here, take this more powerful antibiotic.
2000 AD The bugs have won! Here, eat this root.
- Anonymous Posted by LYMESCIENCE (Member # 9259) on :
I don't think the idea is too far fetched, rather, I think its on the right course.
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
As Crazy as it sounds....
I too felt better after giving blood....whole blood and ...I never thought anyone else would believe me.
It could be the reasons you posted...it could also be the fact that a lot of us have thicker blood(hypo-coagulatory)...which I also noted...cuz it took longer to fill up the bags....
Also while infusing ceftriaxone...and utilizing Heparin to keep the lines and vein clear and open...a blood thinning drug some lymies use or have used with success...
Also am wondering(On side bar) if the med I'm now taking for my diabetes...which helps the cell accept insulin...
could also be helping my antibiotics get into the cells better...
But then what do we do with the blood?
We can't donate any of the stuff.
Interesting observation....anyone else experience this phenom?
zman
Posted by LYMESCIENCE (Member # 9259) on :
However, let me add I don't think it will cure Lyme Disease, but I support the blood letting in theory for other reasons.
Only antibiotics will cure Lyme Disease. However, have we ever answered the question, Just what exactly is Lyme Disease doing, biologically speaking inside our bodies?
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
Hey Science... It's surviving...mutateing...and reproducing...to assure the success of it's species...
biologically speaking.........zman
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
How crazy is this???
I had a miscarriage about 7 years ago. I had massive hemorraging(sp. I'm talking clots the size of baseballs. (I know,it's gross...Sorry)
I went in for a D & C. The next day I noticed I felt physically GREAT!!! I could breathe again like a normal person. I had forgotten what I was missing. I had absolutely no physical pain at all, none whatsoever!
Unfortunately, It didn't last very long .
Where can I sign up for weekly bloodletting? Posted by LYMESCIENCE (Member # 9259) on :
quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: Hey Science... It's surviving...mutateing...and reproducing...to assure the success of it's species...
biologically speaking.........zman
I agree, right now I feel like I'm only a step or two behind the bloody ******* and his friends.
The observations regarding the blood thing are incredibly interesting and I'm intensly researching this phenomina to discover the biology.....but I must say that while my optimism is still very high, I've lost my arrogance.
Something is being done to the blood and or blood supply which directly relates to Chronic Lyme Disease, the herxheimer, co-infections, and people who respond well, not so well, or not at all to antibiotics.
The problem is, that even though I have a reasonable good idea of what is going on, finding the specifics for this is incredibly complicated.
If anyone would like to partner up with me, I need several people who are able to understand biomedical research such as full text articles on pubmed.
I'm honestly incredibly close to chasing down this whole chronic lyme thing, but today I've realized that I can't pigenohole the glory of being the one to answer the whole question alone. There is simply far too many leads to follow.
So, for anyone interested, I'm gonna clear my inbox. PM me, and I'll update you on what I'm doing, because I really need help, and the blood thing is a big part of what is going on, for all of us.
Posted by LYMESCIENCE (Member # 9259) on :
quote:Originally posted by AliG: How crazy is this???
I had a miscarriage about 7 years ago. I had massive hemorraging(sp. I'm talking clots the size of baseballs. (I know,it's gross...Sorry)
I went in for a D & C. The next day I noticed I felt physically GREAT!!! I could breathe again like a normal person. I had forgotten what I was missing. I had absolutely no physical pain at all, none whatsoever!
Unfortunately, It didn't last very long .
Where can I sign up for weekly bloodletting?
Not as crazy as you might think.
Thanks for the observations, it helps tremendously with my research. At the same time, it makes the story more confusing.
In the meantime, maybe it isn't such a bad idea for bloodletting if it helps some people.
I'm still not convinced that the problem is neccesarily in the actual blood we are removing, as it could just as easily be a problem with other things directly involved in blood flow that would bennifit from the removal of all that blood.
In any case, I hope everyone continues to fight, continues to pray, and continues to live strong!
Posted by TexasChaos (Member # 7465) on :
Where can we get a hold of some leeches? Ha ha.
My experience USED to be that giving blood was a nightmare. When they could find a decent vein, they could never get the blood out and the vein would collapse. Then they would accuse me of being "dehydrated".
But about a year ago I tried taking aspirin before a blood draw, and it helped TREMENDOUSLY. I'm not sure if I felt better afterwards... I'll have to pay closer attention next time. Very interesting theory, well worth looking into.
Posted by just don (Member # 1129) on :
Texas Chaos, Are you saying you donate blood???
Do they know you have TBI?
I didnt know they wanted blood from "US", and had a set of questions destined to disqualify our donation!!
Posted by TexasChaos (Member # 7465) on :
Hi, Don,
No, I've never donated blood. And never will. What I should have typed is "when having my blood drawn for one of the gazillion tests they want to do on me".... sorry `bout that. Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
After knowing now that I have TBDs, I have developed a theory as to why I felt the way it did.
I think my body was able to replenish my blood loss faster than the little buggers could reproduce or spew more toxins into my blood.
I don't think it took them very long to catch up though.
Posted by lou (Member # 81) on :
I feel worse after phlebotamists have once again attacked me with needles. No thanks on this therapy.
Maybe people who feel better should get their iron levels checked; might be hemochromatosis.
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
quote:Originally posted by cave76: Whether blood-letting is a good idea or not--- for Lyme it wouldn't help; even if you siphoned off ALL your blood.
Keets like more secluded areas than blood. Not too many of them reside there.
Granted it certainly wouldn't cure it, it may provide some relief from the toxins in your blood.
I have no idea why I felt better. I know it certainly was not because I once again lost a baby.
Posted by sara k (Member # 9773) on :
wow! i was just thinking about this the other day! (and i don't think i've even come across the term blood letting in print for years let alone think about it)
on tuesday, i had 13 tubes of blood drawn. yuk! i started feeling quite sick and felt myself starting to black out and broke out into a sweat but managed to get through it...
anyway about an hour later i realized that i felt better than i've felt in a very long time. no pain. not exhausted... felt normal..
it lasted up until last night- and so i reasoned that perhaps by having so much blood drawn i was maybe temporarily getting rid of whatever makes me feel so sick... and maybe that is how blood letting came to be-
..then i realized that surely the effect would only last until the bad stuff multiplied/ grew back. wonder how long it took for medieval doctors to figure that out... but i guess if the toxins/ poisons were non bacterial it does make sense.
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Interesting comments and observations......
Again, hypothetically speaking, if some reputable research group or doctor offered me a safe, inexpensive method to remove 10% of ALL the bugs and toxins in my blood once a week, I think I'd be nuts if I didn't jump on it.
Even if it made me feel worse for a little while, I would still give it some consideration.
I'm like Ali - where do I sign up?
My Bowen test indicated that I have enough Lyme bugs in my blood to share with everyone, and that count was based just on the cell-wall deficient form. Nobody was counting noses on the ketes or cyst forms. To me, a 10% reduction of Bb in my blood is a lot, even if there are still plenty of bugs in my tissues. That's 10% of the enemy that will never bother any part of my body again.
Those of you on abx may be able to speculate how periodic blood removal could actually enhance abx protocols, perhaps reduce herxing, relieve the kidneys and liver of a significant burden, etc.
By the way, does anyone know what the cost might be to have a phlebotomist draw and dispose of a pint of blood? I can't seem to find any info on that.
More blood facts:
*Red blood cells are formed at a rate of 2 million per second.
*The human body generates blood at a rate of about 2 quarts per week. (So using that as a guide, we should be able to regenerate a pint of blood in about 2 days. Ketes can't compete with that.)
*The human body contains up to ten pints of blood. People who live at high altitudes...... may have up to 2 quarts more blood than people who live in low regions. So removing a pint of blood is 10% for the average person. Generally, there is no danger to a person unless a quart (2 pints) or more of blood is lost.
Lymescience, I have to agree that bloodletting isn't necessarily getting at the heart of the problem. But I think just maybe it could be an adjunct to any protocol that does.
What do we do with the blood, Tony? Hmmm. I assumed that would be the phlebotomist's problem. But if we get to do this ourselves? Well, my first pint of blood, I think I'll throw it in a big batch of cookies, and send half of them to Allen Steere, and half to Osama Bin Laden. After that, it all goes into the boiler at the local power plant. I figure 3,000 degrees ought to cover it.
Leeches, Texas? You may be on to something there. Don't leeches secrete something in their saliva that makes blood flow better? I know leeches are still used in certain circumstances, but not sure what.
Lou, I wonder how many Lymies have low blood volume or reduced red cell mass like in the studies of CFS/Fibro patients? I think either of those conditions could make giving up any blood a bad experience. No, no hemachromatosis here - I had it checked because I wondered the same thing.
And here's another speculation: Perhaps a certain number of Bb always remain in the blood in order to create the conditions there that are good for the bugs but make us feel worse (like hypercoagulation). So by removing blood, we may actually be luring more bugs to come out of hiding to replenish those lost in the blood. Yes, it's pure speculation, but I'm trying to think of reasons why some of us feel bad right after a blood draw, then have a few hours or days of feeling good, and then we are back to the old status quo.
Actually, it could be that removing some blood opens up the blood to receive more toxins, so the cells can begin dumping more into the bloodstream until it becomes ``saturated'' again. I do think our kidneys and liver are working very hard to get rid of this stuff, but I also think those organs are overwhelmed with the load much of the time.
Check out the pricing! They're very affordable! Posted by Banks (Member # 8894) on :
i think its good for the body to give some blood (i hate it), but its no great use for the bacteria, because they dont stay in the blood, thats why they are not discovered easily in blood tests
Posted by lymie tony z (Member # 5130) on :
I'm not too sure but I think that the leeches secrete an anesthetizing(pain killer) AND an anticoagulant at the bite site...in their saliva.
I don't think taking out the plasma and replacing the red blood cells, as they do in those places that pay for donations, would have the same desired effect.
When they put me in psych lockup one night, cuz my dumn duck at the time, did'nt know what to make of a simple prozac/lyme induced panic attack...
There came upon me a REAL wacko lady that was discussing how she would feel better when "they, perfected the machine that draws all the blood out of the human body and cleans it of everything bad and replaces it"....
It sounded oddly workable to me at the time!!
So who was the REAL wacko!
Perhaps the chemical/biological infusion of certain hormones needed to manufacture new blood is the process or chemical changes in our body we're looking for.
I don't know about Iron deficientcy cuz...I upped my iron levels prior to autogolous blood donations prior to my knee replacement surgery...
The first time it was not frozen before it was given back to me durring surgery and I herxed like a wild man....
The second knee...I had the donation frozen before it was given to me...NO herx....
Could have been other factors involved but food for your thought "science".......zman
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Texas - ha, ha - buyer beware - ``leeches are NOT RETURNABLE'' - that one cracked me up.
Let's see, a pint of blood is 743 ml.; the average leech sucks 5 ml. of blood, which would mean that you need 94.6 leeches to remove a pint of blood - call it 100 leeches, so you get the discount. 100 standard, ball-park leeches are $7.45 each, so that is $750, plus you need the little Leech Condo or whatever to keep them happy, which is an extra $159.... I'm not sure this is looking all that inexpensive....... not to mention gross. It sounds like you can ``ooze'' for up to 48 hours after removal of the leech(es).
Banks, I disagree. It's the antibodies that are hard to find in the blood, not the bugs. Obviously, you've never had a Bowen test. But let's say that you are correct - that there aren't many Bb in the blood in chronic Lyme. What WILL be in the blood is ``poop'' - bio- and neuro-toxins - from the bugs that may be hiding out elsewhere. Most of that poop will have to travel through the bloodstream to be filtered out of the body by the organs. Even if you only drain out a few bugs, I still think it's a win/win situation.
And what about all the co-infectious bugs? Maybe there are plenty of them that hang out in the blood regularly. I know there are lots of yeasts and parasites that do.
Tony, do you remember what they charged you to take some of your own blood? I still need to find out what it might cost to have someone draw a pint of blood. Not sure I can find out today since it is Saturday. Also, there is an ``anticoagulant and vasodilator contained in the leech saliva''.
Tracy
Posted by TexasChaos (Member # 7465) on :
Ah, Tracy, I didn't think about all the calculations. I was thinking maybe just get a couple and stick `em on every few days. Okay, I wasn't REALLY thinking about that, but you know what I mean!
There is some sort of process that is done for people who have sepsis (blood poisoning) that filters the poisons out. Interesting info about a new procedure for that at:
What we have is basically a type of sepsis, no?
Posted by TheCrimeOfLyme (Member # 4019) on :
My LLMD has a habit of drawing 4-5 vials of blood everytime I see him.
I FEEL GREAT. For the first time in YEARS, i was able to spend an entire day at the beach and never ONCE thought about lyme, I was even running and chasing my kids.
Now granted, I am damn near in remission, but THAT should have set me off and it didn't.
It took him a while to get my blood though- it looked freaking black.
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Texas, I can't get to that link - my computer (dial-up) just sits there and can't load it.
A few years ago, there were some Hollywood types that were travelling to Europe (Germany, I think) to get some kind of treatment where they filtered your blood or something. I remember that Tina Turner was one of them doing it. I think it was touted as some kind of anti-aging treatment. Wonder what they did to the blood?
Crime, my blood is usually real dark and slow to fill the vial, too. I'm not even sure they could get a whole pint.
Tracy
Posted by TexasChaos (Member # 7465) on :
Ooooh, dial up... ouch!
Interesting that you mentioned Germany -- the link is to an article that was in "Fraunhofer", a German magazine. It talks about some new way the researchers at a biotech institute in Stuttgart came up with. They're referring to it as "a washing machine for the blood".
I'd post the whole link here, but... we all know how that goes. If you're really interested, I can PM it.
Oh, and my blood looks really dark too - like a goth purplish-black. I suppose it's truly "dirty".
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
No need to post the whole URL - it came up on the command line just fine. It just wouldn't load. Part of the problem is this #%*&# computer - it was snake-bit from the moment I took it out of the box.
If I washed my blood, I'm not sure there would be anything left. Like you said, it almost looks dirty. Dirty and tired.
Tracy
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
**bumping up**
CaliforniaLyme just posted a thread about new research being done on bloodletting,.... so I thought I bring this old thread back up.
By the way, I did find out last month that to have some blood taken out - phlebotomy - costs about $72 at the hosptial lab here.
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