in my research of chronic lyme. there is no studies that i have been able to find to tell if chronic lyme is progressive like stage 3 syphillus or stays dormant in tissues>
i hope the second is the case. i know the bb rear their heads when the body is under stress, ie similar to herpes virus. when the treatment is finished do the bugs go back into hibernation??
i have read several articles that both cycts forms in the tissue is pretty much inert and does not do much damage.
if so then why wake the bugs up, by using flagyl to break them up a reak havoc in our systems.
this is my thought and my thinking only. why can't the bugs stay in our system, without treatment, if you are comfortable enough to put up with the symptoms.
i find that when i am dormant and in recession my doc wants to kill the bb and then i feel like crap for several months.
what's wrong with leaving a dead dog lie?
we have many dormant bugs in our body that cancause havoc, but are not tried to be killed by our ducks.
maybe some of us can cohabitate our bodies with bb as a parasite?
just a though.
docdave
Posted by Aniek (Member # 5374) on :
My experience was that I had dormant Lyme for many, many years. It would show itself and then disapear.
Then one day, I got hand pain that resulted in my losing most use of my hands for over a year. I don't want that ever happening again.
I also want to have children one day, and I hope to not have the Lyme in my system at that time. I will not get pregnant if I feel that I am still infected.
And, when I did stop treatment for a couple months, I developed new neurological symtpoms.
Posted by painted turtle (Member # 7801) on :
Doc,
This is very complex and in my struggles with it, I have turned it over and over in my mind.
I don't think it is clear and clean definitely not black and white.
In my experience as a person with late neuro Lyme I know by how the disease progressed in me that there are progressive stages to it. I was a witness to myself (even though I did leave my body...well, AND my mind...for quite a while there)...THAT was the last stage.
As for the research to document it, I haven't seen it but I do know and believe in my own experience as an expert. Although all will be different and my progression
is based in part on my genetics and the stressors in my life (possibly because the last progression was SRESS ITSELF) and so
others' progression may go different routes.
At the same time...after a year plus of abx treatment, and taking flagyl...I ask the same question.
I have decided that I will likely always have manifestations of this disease becuase I had it undetected for SO LONG and previous to diagnosis
was ANTI antibiotic so I NEVER took anythign to inadvertently help me along with way unknowingly. (Funny how now I may be accused by the ignorants of "antibiotic seeking behavior" since the Lyme diagnosis -- but JEEZ, wouldn't that make sense??? Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
yes tertiary syphillus is fatal and worth calling dr. kervokian to treat.
i'm not sure if there is a tertiary lyme,i hope not stage 3 lyme does not present as dramatic as stage 3 syphillus..
i guess once the brain is gone, the body goes next.
many very famous people died of teriary syphillus king henry 8 , al cappone among others.
progressively speaking, once it enters the brain, i don't think there is much chance of killing it.
most diseases once in the brain can not be cured. its a strange place up there and even stranger in mine. my brain feels like the commericial about drugs showing the fried eyes, and this is my brain also.
well nap time so see all your good people in 2 hours.
docdave
Posted by micul (Member # 6314) on :
Doc Dave says"
i have read several articles that both cycts forms in the tissue is pretty much inert and does not do much damage.
if so then why wake the bugs up, by using flagyl to break them up a reak havoc in our systems.
It's true that they don't do much damage while they are in the cyst form. The problem is that they don't stay that way. Each cyst is like an egg that can hatch many more keets. It is much better IMO to go after all forms at the same time to keep the keets from turning into cysts. If you only Tx one form at a time, then there is always a way out for them. This is why anyone getting Tx with only Rocephin will relapse shortly after stopping Tx.
Posted by LYMESCIENCE (Member # 9259) on :
Yes, Lyme is progressive, but it can be slow. Death from Lyme will eventually result from cardiovascular abnormalities which co-exist with nerve palsy. These conditions exist to provide the disease known as Chronic Lyme Disease, or Disease with more than Borrelia alone, with a haven from the storm of the immune system, as well as to allow for a condensed communication network so that messages don't have to travel long distances to reach other Borrelia, and other micro-organisms.
Some have referenced this to be a hypercoagulative state, and they are correct. But, this is only one part of the story. The hypercoagulative state is not only a result of microvascular blockage, but is the logical baracade used by the disease to set up localized area's of defence. By reducing the amount of blood flow through the disease process, and durring the herxheimer, ramping this process up significantly, allows the diseases to be exposed to sub or barley optimal Minimum inhibotory levels of the drugs we use against the disease.
This is very bad.
So bad, that it makes me agree in part with the IDSA. Bacterial resistance is a problem, a very big problem. However, this is where the agreement ends. The IDSA believes the problem is related, in Lyme patients, to people treating a non infectious disease with antibiotics, and the risk to society is from the normal flora carried by these patients and the resistance which would come from that.
Once again, the IDSA is not complete in their science. The greatist risk lies in allowing Borrelia to aquire resistance to a great many antibotics, which, when re-introduced into nature, co-insides with the significant rise in hard to treat Lyme Disease cases.
So, whose to blame?
The Lyme Docs for their antibiotic prescribing, no, they were simply trying to plug the gaping holes missed by Allan Steere in his description of a disease he termed Lyme arthritis.
Steere didn't concieve of a system of bacterial fortresses, and, early on, as people had not used antibiotics against the disease, they were somewhat effective. As time went on, with the continued ignorance of the biological nature of Lyme Disease, cases became much more difficult to treat.
This is also the reason it has been hard to isolate "treatment resistant" isolates. However, this has been done, and repeated many times.
As Lyme Disease patients, an answer must be found to remove the defenses set up by the Disease. When the disease is forced to deal with the full dosage of the drugs we take, we may find that Lyme Disease is actually much simpler than anyone thought possible.
We must also keep in mind that the drugs we take have been taken in the context of resistance patterns. So, when we remove the issue of quarum sensing by means of sequesteriztion, we must make certain that we are not lazy relating to this issue, because if we are, they we are putting eveyrone is society at risk.
Allan has done this directly by refusing to act scientifically to explain the frank discordant nature of his theory, and what actually occurs in biology. So, in the end, the blame in history is with Allan, and a select group of his friends.
When we allow our egos to become more important than our judgement, we become lost in our own maze. This is what has happened to both Allan and Gary. Certainly, other things happened with both these men, but they should serve as example to all of us what happens when our heads are in the sand.
Posted by treepatrol (Member # 4117) on :
quote:Originally posted by LYMESCIENCE: Yes, Lyme is progressive, but it can be slow. Death from Lyme will eventually result from cardiovascular abnormalities which co-exist with nerve palsy. These conditions exist to provide the disease known as Chronic Lyme Disease,
Boy thats a bowl cheerios Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
me too, i had to go take 2 more zolofts after reading lymescience post
man i think i'm past all those stages.
maybe i should order a casket i like. i can also right my own eulogy.
HERE LIES DOCDAVE,STYMIELYMIE,CHRONICLYMIE, HARRIET, DOC, DRDAVE, DR. TROLL
HE ONCE WAS A DENTIST, HE ONCE WAS FIT BUT NOW HE'S S--t, HE ONCE HAD LYME, BUT NOW NO MORE, HE'S STERILE INSIDE, BUT THE WORM'S HAVE LYME. 1953-2006
FATHER TO MANY, NONE KNOWN BY NAME.
DOCDAVE
Posted by Jill E. (Member # 9121) on :
quote:Originally posted by cave76: ****maybe i should order a casket i like. i can also right my own eulogy.****
Here's your answer! A Real Man's Casket!
Fans can still be part of game after final out Major League Baseball licenses team logos for caskets, urns Reuters
Well, maybe we should change that line from League of Their Own of "There's no crying in baseball" to "There's no dying in baseball."
I wonder if stores like Nordstrom will come up with a similar idea for us non-sports shopping fans.
Jill
Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
doc dave I thought you were 100 years old!
(or was that tony z?)
As a person who is at least stage 3 lyme, many years in, I am hoping that enough abx and righteous (e.g., healthy) living will knock down the number of bacteria to the point where my body can handle the rest.
So my hopeful theory is that the abx does not kill every one of the critters, but reduces the number substantially and then mother nature can take over. does that make any sense? hope so!
Posted by stella marie (Member # 7216) on :
I was always fond of the 'Harriet' moniker......anyway how is Axelrod?
Stella Marie
Posted by stymielymie (Member # 10044) on :
I'll be physically and mentally 80 tomorrow. chronologically only 53. Happy Birthday to moi!!!!!
My post might have been deleted before or i deleted it.
Jill :Norstrums has a Christmas Special this Sunday only. Mink or Ermin lined lyme green caskets with ticks in the mink and ermin. Just to keep you comfortable in the afterlife. they also have valet parking for your casket. But you have to use your Norstrum's card to get all these extras.
eddylyme: i think every body is going about treating all these diseases in the wrong way. they should start to treat many diseases like the new cancer treatment. they are building molecules that specifically attack only cancer cells and not every cell in the body. one of my theories i sent to an oncologist friend at Hopkins. it involves using non-virulent virues,genetically altered , with the good needed gene attached to the virus. the virus invades the cell and delivers the good genes to the cells. this was a major advancement in gene therapy research.
my next project is to try to find a attachment site to the bb in all forms and try to produce an antibody that will specificallty target bb. just like lazer targeting for missles. if we can light up the bb then we can get the wbc's to clean them up. the major problem is their stealthness. they need to glow like lightening bugs on a black night, antibodies can be produced from subclinical or positive for lyme but no symptoms, yes these people do exist and they are the cure for all lyme patients at least bb anyway.
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